Coal Trade: Minutes of evidence, 15 March 1830

Die Lunæ, 15 Martii 1830.

[153]

The Lord President in the Chair.

Mr. Edward Tickner is called in, and further examined as follows:

Have you any Statement that you wish to deliver in?

On Saturday, in my Examination, I stated that an unusually large Quantity of Coal had been sent to Market during the last Two or Three Months, which was doubted by One of your Lordships. I have obtained from the Office of the Clerk of the Coal Market a Document which bears me out in my Statement; and it shews that, comparing the Two last Months, namely, January and February of the present Year, with the corresponding Months of the Four preceding Years, the Excess of the last Two Months over the Four corresponding Periods - for 1826 is 8,968 Chaldrons; for 1827, 106,072 Chaldrons; for 1828, 58,842 Chaldrons; 1829, 31,941 Chaldrons; and I am informed there is a large Fleet of about 200 Sail just arrived, with about 40,000

[154]

Chaldrons more. I have read my Evidence of Saturday, and wish to add to my Answer, that so small an Excess as 45,000 Chaldrons, on an Aggregate of 1,500,000 Chaldrons, did not in my Judgment account for the low Price of the Coal during that Part of the Year 1829, when the Regulation did not exist; but upon more mature Reflection, I am of Opinion that the Price is more referrable to the System than to the Quantity; because about the Middle of the Month, when a Coal Merchant requires a particular Sort of Coal, and there are but few Ships at Market with that Coal, and they are induced to hold out for better Prices, because the Buyer is under the Apprehension that the Regulation will restrict the Vend of any more of that Coal 'till the next Month, he is consequently induced to give the Price demanded; therefore the Prices sustained here are more referrable, in my Opinion, to the System than to the Quantity in the Market. I also stated, with respect to the Clarence Railway, that unless the Quality of that Coal could compete with the best Newcastle and Sunderland Coal, it would not reduce the Price materially; but on Consideration I am of Opinion, that any considerable Supply from Sources not included in the Regulation, although the Quality might not be first Rate, would so derange the System of Regulation, that it would materially tend to reduce the Price of Coals here. I have also admitted, in my Answer, that it is probable the new Proprietors (I mean of the Coal Field that it is proposed to connect with the Mouth of the Tees by means of the Clarence Railway) would in all probability combine with the Regulation of the Tyne and Wear, because it would be their Interest to do so; but I wish to add, as it is in Evidence before the Coal Committee of the Common Council, that as the Seams of Coal lie nearer the Surface, and can consequently be worked cheaper in the new District, it would be the Interest of the Parties engaged to sell as large a Quantity as possible, and as that cannot be done unless they sold cheaper, they would not combine with the Collieries on the Tyne and Wear.

There is nothing to prevent the Clarence Railway taking place whenever sufficient Funds are found for that Purpose?

I believe not.

In your Evidence on Saturday you were asked some Questions with respect to a Statement which appeared in a Durham Newspaper, on the Subject of Coals; have you that to refer to?

I have made a Note of it; I said that that Statement was overcharged, forasmuch as the average Freight is put down at 11s., whereas, in my Opinion, that greatly exceeds the Freight actually made, for I am credibly informed, that the Ships do not, in the Summer, make more than 8s., and in the worst Months in the Winter, not more than 10s. at the utmost.

From whence do you derive that Information?

I have derived the Information in my Communications from Ship Owners in that Trade, but not from any specific Document; and I am informed by a Coal Factor in Newcastle, (who is unfortunately not in Town to give me the Particulars,) that there are several Items in that Statement to the Amount of Two or Three Shillings, which are enumerated in addition to the Freight, and which in fact are paid out of the Freight by the Ship Owner.

Can you state those Particulars?

I cannot, without writing to Newcastle.

In which Year were the Freights from Sunderland such as you have named?

During the last Two Years; I would have added that the Statement referred to appears to me not correct upon the Face of it, because it makes out the average Price of Coals to the Consumer here 53s. per Chaldron; whereas the Fact is, that the Consumer in London does not pay so much as 53s. by many Shillings, consequently that Statement cannot be correct.

If you look at that Statement, you will see that it refers to Two Descriptions of Coals only, and it is the Average between those Two, Stewart's and the Headon Main?

I have spoken from a general Average; I have not examined the Average of those Two Coals.

In your Evidence on Saturday you also stated that your principal Reason for thinking that Coals are charged too high at the Ports of Shipment, is the Difference in Price between the Walls End Coal in 1793, and that of the same Coal at this Time?

I did.

Can you state exactly what that Difference of Price is?

In the Year 1793 it was 18s. per Newcastle or Double Chaldron, and at the present Time it appears to be 33s. 6d., being a Difference of 15s. 6d.

Are you at all aware of the Circumstances under which that particular Colliery is at present worked?

[155]

I am not particularly aware of such Circumstances. I answered on Saturday that I believed the Coals were better skreened and dressed at that Colliery now than they were then; but I am informed by Coal Merchants, whom I have seen since Saturday, that that is not the Case.

Are you informed that there are Circumstances attending the Situation of that Colliery entirely different from those which attended that Colliery in 1793?

I am not aware of any essential Difference of Circumstances.

You are not aware that that Colliery had, at that Time, a very large Quantity of what is called Virgin Coal before it?

I have heard that there was a Seam of Coal not of so good Quality before it.

By the Term Virgin Coal the Question refers to a great Quantity of unworked Coal?

I have not been informed of that Fact.

Then you are not aware, that in that Colliery they are at this Moment working their Pillars up at very considerable Risk and Expence?

I am not aware at all of the Circumstances under which that Colliery is placed.

Are you aware of the Circumstances under which almost all the Collieries near the River at Newcastle are now placed?

I am not acquainted with any of them as to Particulars.

Then you cannot say how far any of those Collieries are enabled to bring their Coals to Market at the same Expence they were in the Year 1793?

I cannot, other than by repeating the Answer of Saturday; that Machinery has been materially improved since that Period, which has facilitated the Operations of Mining so as to be very nearly equivalent to the increased Difficulties in working the Coal Pits.

Supposing the Coal Fields in the immediate Neighbourhood of the River to be very much exhausted, would it not be necessary for the Coal Owners to win the Coal Fields further from the River?

Certainly.

Would not that necessarily entail upon the Coal Owners very great additional Expence?

Very heavy Expence, undoubtedly.

They would have more to pay for their Way-leaves?

Certainly; and I believe there is no Act of Parliament compelling the Land Proprietors to alienate their Land for such Purposes.

Are you aware that they also have to go a much more considerable Depth for their Coals at a Distance from the River than near it?

That I am not aware of.

In point of fact, you are not aware of the Circumstances under which any of the Collieries at Newcastle are really working?

I have no practical Information on the Subject.

Nor are you aware of the Price at which the Coal Owners at present can raise their Coal to the Surface?

I am not.

Nor aware of how much the present Price leaves to the Coal Owner, after the actual Cost of getting the Coal to the Surface?

I am not at all acquainted with such Circumstances.

[156]

Are you aware of any Society or Club among the Ship Owners, for the Purpose of fixing the Price of Freights?

I know only of Insurance Clubs. I am not aware of any Society among the Ship Owners for fixing Freights.

Did you never hear of any Attempts of that Sort being made?

I never did.

When you spoke of the Price of Freights, did you refer to last Year?

To last Year and the preceding Year.

Was it in the last Year you say it cost from Eight to Ten Shillings?

Eight Shillings in the Summer, and Ten Shillings in the Winter; such is my Information from Ship Owners.

Have you never heard it was from Twelve to Thirteen Shillings?

I never have.

You never heard that the Coal Owners, being obliged to take the Risk of freighting upon themselves, were forced to pay the Ship Owners from Twelve to Thirteen Shillings?

I have heard that, during the Period of the Non-regulation in the Middle of last Summer, the Coal Owners were obliged to take the Freight upon themselves, and which I think is the Reason and Justice of the Case.

For which they were paying from Twelve to Thirteen Shillings?

I do not know what they paid; I only know the Fact of their having taken upon themselves the Risk of the Market here.

If the Coal Owners in the North agreed to increase the Supply of Coals to the London Market beyond the usual Quantity, would that have the Effect of lowering the Price of Coals in the London Market?

I think it must have the Effect of lowering the Price of Coal.

If the Coal Owners in the North agree among themselves to diminish the Quantity of Supply sent up to the London Market, will not that, of course, have the Effect of increasing the Price of Coals in the London Market?

Certainly; apportioning the Supply to the Demand, the Effect of that must be to increase the Price of Coal.

Then the Price depends on the Quantity the Coal Owners may agree to send up to the London Market, as long as they can agree among themselves upon that Subject?

It depends principally upon that, and partly upon the System in operation at the Ports of Shipment; for the Merchants here are in Ignorance of the Quantity coming to Market. Was there an unrestricted Supply, they would wait 'till the next Market Day, in expectation of more Ships coming, rather than give a high Price; but they inform me, that after the Middle of the Month they are under Apprehension that no more Coal of a particular Species will be vended, and they are therefore induced to give the Price demanded of them. I refer to the System or Arrangement among the Coal Owners of the Tyne and Wear for regulating the Quantities to be shipped according to the Quantities sold and remaining unsold here.

Do you conceive that the Regulation in the North was established for any other Purpose than obtaining what the Coal Owners think, whether right or wrong, is a fair Price for that Article?

I am not aware of any other Object than that of sustaining the Price which they think they ought to have.

[157]

You think that by limiting the Quantity sold to that which the Market will take off, or about that, is more likely to give them a fair Price than overstocking the Market?

Certainly it must have the Effect of sustaining their own Prices.

Can you speak to there having been any Want of any particular Description of Coal in the Market of London since the Regulation has been re-established?

I am not acquainted as to any particular Coal; but certainly there have been Ships at Market unsold every Market Day.

When you came here on Saturday, you were not aware of the Extent of the over-sea Duties?

I was not.

You perceive now the Effect of those over-sea Duties is almost to confine the Vend of Coals to the English Market?

It must, to a very great Extent, have that Effect; but I believe that Coals are exported notwithstanding that Duty. I have been concerned in exporting some Cargoes from Newcastle to Oporto myself, though the Existence of the Duty of 17s. a Chaldron was not on my Mind when I was examined on Saturday.

What Description of Coals were those you sent to Oporto?

It was so long ago that I do not recollect the particular kind; the whole was managed by a Relation of mine at Newcastle.

How long ago was that Shipment?

Fourteen or Fifteen Years ago.

Are you at all aware of the Quantity of Coals now sent over Sea to Countries other than those under the Dominion of Great Britain?

I am not.

You are in the habit of visiting Newcastle and Sunderland?

I have been there Two or Three Times.

You have Relations there?

I have; but I had not particularly turned my Attention to this Subject until recently, which I have been constrained to do, by observing the very great Objection made by the Coal Owners to the Bill for the Improvement of London Bridge Approaches, partly on the Ground that the Continuation of the small Impost of 6d. per Chaldron being a great public Grievance; and giving them Credit at the Time for the Sincerity of their Intentions, I was very much astonished at their having shortly after done an Act which raised the Price of Coals Six or Eight Shillings a Chaldron here.

You have observed a great Quantity of Coals wasted in consequence of the skreening, to prepare the Coals for the Market?

I have seen those great Heaps; it is a Waste that is very much to be regretted.

You must feel that that Loss to the Coal Owner arises from a certain Fastidiousness in the London Market, which does not exist in any other Town in the Kingdom?

I am not aware that the London Market requires better Coal than the Outports.

To what other Reason can you attribute this Skreenage?

I do not know that there was not always that Manufacture of Coals, skreening and cleansing from Impurities.

[158]

Having visited that Neighbourhood at different Times, have you not remarked that that Practice of skreening has increased?

I never was in that Neighbourhood 'till within the last Six or Seven Years, consequently I cannot compare it with any more distant Date.

You did not understand that to be the Case?

I have not been informed that the Coals are more skreened now than they were at earlier Periods; I think it is probable, because the Manufacture of all Goods is done in a superior Manner now to what it was at former Times; therefore I think it is probable the Coals are better manufactured now than formerly.

Are you aware that the same Coals are burned in Newcastle and Sunderland, without being skreened?

I am not aware of that Fact; but I think it is probable that they are so used in the Glasshouses and other Manufactories.

Are they not used in all the Houses, not only in Newcastle, but in the West Riding of Yorkshire, without skreening?

I believe they are.

Are you not aware that there is an immense Quantity of Coal lost; that People may take as many as they please?

I believe that to be the Case.

That is in consequence of the kind of Coals the People in London insist upon having?

That must be the Cause of it.

You have mentioned the Price of Freight; where did you get the Returns of the Price of Freight?

I received the Information from individual Ship Owners, but not from any official Documents.

Is there any Document in the Coal Exchange which states the Price of Freight?

I do not think there is; but it might be made out from a Comparison of the Price of Coals put on board with the Price they obtain in the Market here; the Difference is the Freight; it would be possible to make it out; taking, for instance, the Market Price of the Stewart's Walls End on the Fifth of March last, which was 32s. 9d., the Price on board being 16s. 3d., the Duty and Charges being about 10s., it would leave only 6s. 6d. per Chaldron for the Freight; and it appears to me that the Ship Owners are great Sufferers, and almost the only Sufferers in the Coal Trade, they taking all the Risk of the Market.

Supposing the Ship Owners to be paid their full Freight, who is to be at the Loss of that 4s. 6d.?

I am of Opinion the Manufacturers and Exporters of all Goods should take upon themselves the Risk of the Market they send their Goods to. I am obliged to do so with Leather which I manufacture, when I export it, and so is every other Manufacturer.

Supposing you preferred not selling a Quantity of your Article to a Loss on every Part of it you were selling, you would be at liberty to decline to do so?

I should certainly be at liberty to decline doing so.

Do you know the Difference in the Price of Coals that are skreened and not skreened at the Pit's Mouth?

No, I do not.

[159]

Has not the Ship Owner a Power of refusing to carry the Coals, if he does not get a remunerating Price for that?

Certainly; but with his Apprentices, and other unavoidable Expences which lie upon him, he is induced to go on almost against Hope, and with the Certainty of a Loss.

And has the Coal Owner no Expence he must be at, whether he sells his Coals at a remunerating Price or not?

Certainly, like all other Manufacturers.

Then he is in the same Situation as the Ship Owner is in that respect?

Yes, they are both in nearly the same Situation in that respect.

Then the one or the other must take the Chance of getting or not getting a remunerating Price?

That is the Alternative; but my Opinion is, that the Coal Owners should take that Risk upon themselves.

The Coal Owner is restricted to the English Market, which the Ship Owner is not?

I think he is more confined to the Home Market than other Manufacturers, and that he is therefore more entitled to the Protection of the Legislature than other Manufacturers would be; that is my candid Opinion upon the Case.

You are aware there is a Duty on all Sea-borne Coal of 6s. a Chaldron?

Yes.

Does not that Duty tend to confine it within a certain Limit?

Certainly.

Does not that prevent his going so high up the Rivers as he would do but for that?

He cannot go where he comes in Collision with other Collieries.

Those other Collieries being subject to no Duty?

Just so.

Therefore, in point of fact, the Coal Owner is confined, in the first place, to the Market of England, and in the next place, only to a certain Portion of England?

Yes, but he has the best Market of all the World; that is, the British Metropolis.

Whether that be a good or bad Market must depend on the Cost Price, and so forth?

Yes; but for the Certainty of selling a large Quantity, there is no Market in the World that can be compared to London.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. William Horne is called in, and further examined as follows:

Do you wish to explain your former Evidence?

I wish to explain the Carmen's Wages of 10s. a Day. I find, on inquiring, that the whole he receives a Day is 12s. 5d.; but out of that he has to pay 5s. 7½d., reducing it to 6s. 9½d. a Day clear.

What does he pay the 5s. 7½d. for?

A Quarter of the Shooting he pays to the Man called the Trouncer.

[160]

Who is the Trouncer?

The Man who goes with the Waggon; he pays Three-pence a Chaldron in part of loading, and he pays One Penny per Chaldron to the Man we call the Pullback, which I did not know of.

What is the Pullback?

He is the Man who assists in getting the Sacks from the Front or any Part of the Waggon to the Tail of the Waggon to prevent the Necessity of the Carman getting up into the Waggon for every Sack he wants. I beg to refer to my former Evidence, where I said I charged 12s.; but if I sell Coals for ready Money, I am very ready to sell for 10s.

How many People go with a Waggon Load of Coals to a Consumer?

It appears that there are Two who go with the Waggon, and One who runs about from one Place to the other, and meets the Waggons.

Those additional Men are paid by the Carman, out of the Money he receives from the Customer?

Yes.

He makes his Bargain with them, without your entering into that Matter at all?

Without my knowing any thing about it. I was not at all aware of the Circumstance on Saturday; but it struck me, as it appeared to strike your Lordships, that 10s. a Day was a large Sum, and I inquired into it in consequence.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

James Edgcome Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

You are Collector of Customs at Newcastle?

I am.

Have you ever directed your Attention to the possibility of taking the Duty on Sea-borne Coals upon the Weight, instead of the Measure, as it is at present taken?

I have.

Are you of Opinion that that Duty might be collected upon the Weight without any material Inconvenience?

I think so.

Are you of Opinion it might be so collected as to secure to the Revenue the full Proportion to which it is entitled?

I have no doubt of that, though I have not had much Time to revolve the Subject in my Mind, having been called very suddenly to attend this Committee. If your Lordships would allow me a little Time to wait on the Chairman of the Board of Customs, I should feel obliged; at the same Time I am ready to state that which occurs to my own Mind.

Upon the View you at present take of it, you have no doubt the Duty might be collected by Weight at the Port of Shipment, without any Disadvantage either to the Government or any other Party?

I think it would be with considerable Advantage to the Government, and reduce the Thing to a greater Certainty.

[161]

Would it create an additional Expence at the Port of Shipment, Newcastle or Sunderland, than it does now?

It would certainly create a greater Expence at Newcastle than is incurred at Newcastle now; but taking into Account the Expence incurred at the various Out-ports, I should be inclined to think there would be a Saving of Expence to Government upon the whole, though I am hardly prepared to say what Amount of Salary the Officers would be fairly entitled to who might be entrusted with the Superintendence of the Weight upon the Shipment of Coals; but the Service of the Meters at the Out-ports would be dispensed with, and a Saving thus effected.

Supposing the Duty on Sea-borne Coals done away with, and an equal Rate of Duty put on Coal at the Pit's Mouth all over England, might not a Duty of that Nature be collected without Difficulty, and at a cheap Rate?

I should think it might, certainly. As the Revenue would be increased so greatly, it would then afford to support a greater Establishment of Officers, and there would necessarily be a great Increase of Officers required.

The Question referred to a Tax on Coals, not at the present Rate, but a Tax applying to all Coals equally, and producing the same Amount as that raised at present?

My Opinion is, that such a Tax can be raised at a very inconsiderable Expence, if the Rate of Duty be lowered so as to produce the same Amount of Revenue. As I understand, there is on every Colliery a Book kept, in which the Account of Coals raised is entered, and from which the Workmen are paid (which I presume may be taken to be correct); if One intelligent Officer (a Riding Officer) were employed to visit all the Collieries in a large and extended District, he might, with the Exercise of a sound Judgment, prevent Frauds, and make a Transcript from such Book of the Coals so raised; and the Contents of that Book might be verified in a Manner similar to that which is done in many Instances in the Manufactories under the Excise; and the Temptation to Fraud would be so very inconsiderable, that I can hardly anticipate it.

Have you made any Calculation of the additional Number of Officers which would be required at Newcastle for the Purpose of collecting the Duty?

I have not made that Calculation.

There were Two Gentlemen sent down into the North to investigate the Subject Two Years ago; have you conferred with them?

I have had a Conversation with Mr. Dickson, who was one of them, and I expressed my Sentiments to him at the Time.

They were of a different Opinion, were they not?

Yes; they considered that the Manufactories which had been established in the Coal District on the Faith of obtaining Coals free of Duty would be prejudiced; that Difficulty, I conceive, might be obviated by granting a Drawback similar to that now given for Coals used in the Mines in Devonshire and in Cornwall, provided a certain Quantity were consumed, so as to prevent every insignificant Dealer in Coals claiming that Drawback.

How is the Duty at present collected in the Port of London?

I am not aware.

[162]

There must be some Officers at present employed in collecting that Duty?

Unquestionably; we partially collect the Duty at Newcastle as it is.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. Robert Beaumont is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you reside?

At Landaff in Glamorganshire.

Are you a Manager of Collieries in that County?

Yes, in the General Line.

Have you ever had any thing to do with Collieries in any other Part of the Kingdom?

Yes, in Scotland.

Do you sell your Coals in Glamorganshire by Weight or by Measure?

Principally by Weight.

Do you send any to Ireland?

Yes, considerable Quantities.

Where are they shipped?

At Cardiff, and at Newport.

Are they put on board by the Weight, and delivered in Ireland also by the Weight?

They are all put on board by the Weight; I think they are sold partly by Weight in Ireland.

Have you ever had any Difficulty in ascertaining the Weight of the Coals either in the shipping or the unloading?

In shipping they are generally weighed.

In what Manner are they weighed?

In the Waggons and on a Weighing Engine placed in the Line of Railway for the Purpose; the Waggon is weighed empty first and marked, and when full, it shows the proper Weight of its Contents.

Are you aware how the Weight is ascertained in Ireland?

They weigh them out of the Ship.

By what Means?

By a small Steelyard on the Deck.

Has any Complaint arisen within your Knowledge as to this Mode of Shipment or Delivery of the Coals?

Not particularly in shipping; in delivering there was a Dispute in Dublin about Six or Seven Years ago.

What was the Nature of that Dispute?

Owing to the Measurement from the Vessel, while Coals were sold by Measure.

Have you ever had any Difficulty in those Places in Ireland where you sold by Weight?

Not the least; the Weight was introduced, particularly into Dublin, in consequence of the Disputes about the Measure.

Is there any Duty upon this Coal of any Sort, either municipal or otherwise?

There is a regular Duty in Ireland of 1s. 9d. per Ton.

[163]

That Duty is paid upon the Weight?

It is.

Have you ever heard of any Difficulty in collecting that Duty?

Not the least, any more than formerly, in collecting by Measure. In Dublin, in order to check the Weight from the Vessel, the City introduced City Steelyards under the Police in different Parts of the City, so that all Purchasers can have them weighed, and their Weight must correspond with the Ticket which the Coal Driver receives from the Coal Agent, and carries with him to the Customer.

During the Dispute you have referred to, was there any Complaint of the Coal being broken, in order to make it measure out farther?

Yes, particularly the Scotch Coal.

Since the taking the Duty by Weight has been introduced, have there been any Complaints of that Kind?

No, there have not.

Is there any Difference in the Duty, whether they are sold by Measure or by Weight?

No.

On what is the Duty taken?

On Twenty Cwt. to the Ton.

You know pretty nearly how much that ought to measure?

Yes.

What is the Measure of Twenty Cwt. in Dublin?

It is Eight Barrels, or Twenty-four Bushels, equal to Three Tons to the Newcastle Chaldron, or a Ton and a Half to the London Chaldron.

You had, for several Years, charge of extensive Collieries in Ayrshire, had you not?

Yes; I was Ten Years on the Coast of Ayrshire.

From that Circumstance you are particularly enabled to speak as to the Sale of Coal in Dublin?

Yes; I have had Occasion to be Two or Three Times in Dublin on the Subject.

Had you ever any thing to say to the Management of Lord Elgin's Collieries in Scotland?

Yes.

Does Lord Elgin supply the City of Edinburgh from his Collieries?

Yes; that is a considerable and extensive Market for Lord Elgin's Coals.

You were brought up under your Father?

Yes.

Formerly the Coals in the City of Edinburgh used to be sold by Measure, did they not?

Yes; all the English Coal, and those assimilating to the English Coal, were sold by Measure.

When you speak of those assimilating to the English Coal, do you mean Scotch Coals of the same Nature as the English?

Yes; Scotch Coals of the same Nature; Lord Elgin's.

Did any Complaint arise in consequence of this Practice of selling Coals by Measure in the City of Edinburgh?

Yes.

[164]

What Measures were taken by the Magistrates upon that Occasion?

They resolved that they should be all sold by Weight.

What Steps did they take for carrying that Measure into effect?

They established Steelyards through the City.

Whereabouts are the Steelyards placed?

At convenient Corners of the Streets.

Any Person who buys Coals may cause them to be weighed at those Steelyards?

Yes.

Does he pay any thing for the Use of the Steelyards?

No.

Does the Waggoner who takes the Coals receive a Ticket from the Coal Agent specifying the Weight of the Coals?

Yes, always.

If a Buyer chooses he may have them weighed at those Steelyards, and the Carman is liable for any Deficiency?

Yes, that is the Mode.

With respect to the City of Glasgow, how is that supplied; by Weight or by Measure?

That is all by Weight.

What Collieries in general supply the City of Glasgow?

All Scotch Coal, and all in the immediate District; all The Duke of Hamilton's and Mrs. Dixon's; and a great Number of Collieries all round.

About Swansea and Neath, how are the Coals sold?

They have an old Standard Measure, I think, called a Weigh.

They are there sold by Measure?

Yes; I think it is equal to Three London Chaldrons in Measure; but the Weight is considered Five Tons always.

Are the Coals sold in those Places by Weight or by Measure?

I consider that this Weight makes Five Tons, and they are sold accordingly.

Do you know the Export Duty in Wales?

Four Shillings per Ton, if it goes beyond the District; and there is One Port where there is no Duty; they are Duty-free.

Is the Duty collected at the Port of Delivery, or the Port of Shipment?

At the Port of Delivery, except for those going Foreign. At Newport they have an Act which relieves them on one Side of the River.

Are you aware what Establishment of Officers is necessary at Dublin to collect the Duty on Coals?

I am not quite sure of the Number; but there is One Master Meter to each Vessel.

The Master Meter's Duty being to see the Coals weighed?

Yes; and to keep the Account.

What sized Ships do you generally send your Coals in?

Of different Sizes; not very large; 120 to 200 Tons: Average, 170.

Are you at all aware how long it takes to discharge a Cargo in Dublin?

[165]

They could discharge in probably about Four Days if they had regular Work; but they have not always regular Work; and they only discharge as they are disposed of, and carried direct to the Consumer. Sometimes it takes a Week and upwards.

Are they discharged in the Port of Dublin by the Seamen of the Ship, or Persons employed on Purpose?

Persons are employed. The Seamen, I believe, hoist them; but there are People employed to fill them. The Seamen are not allowed to fill them.

Are you prepared to state what was the Export of Coals from Swansea last Year?

I am not quite sure.

Or from Neath?

The greater Part of the Coal exported from Neath is Stone Coal or Malting Coal; about 120,000 Tons, I think.

What is the Duty on the small Coal?

There is a small Duty on the Culm, about 6d.; the small Coal goes free.

Are the Owners of Vessels obliged to enter into a Bond that the Vessel shall proceed to the Port for which it is cleared out?

Always.

If the Duty is such as to be a prohibitory Duty, of what use can that Bond be?

That is for Foreign. The Duty preserves them from the Necessity of giving the Bond in Foreign; but in all the Home Trade they are obliged to give a Bond.

The Bond is confined to the Home Trade, with a view to preventing the Captain going Abroad with the Cargo at a less Duty?

Yes, to oblige him to discharge his Cargo where he engages to do; and he is obliged to send a Return from where he discharges his Cargo, from the one Custom House to the other.

Can you state the Total Export, or nearly so, from Cardiff last Year?

I think about Sixty thousand Tons.

Can you state what was the Total Export of Coals from Newport last Year?

I think from Five hundred to Five hundred and fifty thousand Tons.

How do you account for the great Difference of Export between Cardiff and Newport; is there such a Difference in the Quality of the Coal?

I do not conceive there is much Difference in the Quality, but at Cardiff they pay a Duty on all the Coals, being excluded from the Line drawn at Newport, which shuts them out from Bristol and Bridgewater, and those large Markets, which take Two Thirds of the Supply.

Can you state what is the Nature of that Exemption enjoyed by Newport?

The Exemption is, all Vessels going to the Eastward of the Holmes, the Two Islands in the Channel from which a Line was drawn, are Duty-free.

That was an Act passed in the 37th of George the Third, was it not?

Yes, I believe it was.

That was extended by the Act 43 Geo. 3.?

Yes.

[166]

The Effect of that Monopoly in favour of Newport is to exclude Coals from the Port of Cardiff, though very nearly of the same Quality from all Ports to the Eastward of the Holmes?

Yes, entirely so; the Duty of 4s. makes a material Difference.

Is that Exemption exclusively in favour of Newport, or do Places lying more directly within the River Severn, between Newport and Bristol, have the Benefit of that?

It is Coal sent from Newport alone.

So that Coals sent from Newport to Bridgewater or Bristol have an Exemption, which Ports lying more strictly within the River have not?

Yes; and I am not aware that there are any Coals go from Cardiff to Bristol.

Previous to the passing of this Act of Parliament, there was a considerable Export of Coals from Cardiff to Bristol, was there not?

So far as I know there was.

And the same from the Forest of Deane?

Yes.

So that the Effect of that Exemption has been, not only to deprive the Ports West of the Holmes of one of the most extensive Branches of that Trade, but also to deprive the Government of a considerable Receipt of Duty?

It must; because I suppose there is not less than Three hundred thousand Tons go from Newport annually, Duty-free.

Do you understand that that Exemption is for a limited Period?

I believe not; it was a Clause which was slipped into the Monmouthshire Canal Act. I think this Clause says, to the Eastward of the Holmes. Then a Survey was taken, and a Line struck across, which goes within about Half a Mile of Cardiff Harbour, but, unfortunately for it, on the wrong Side.

Do you find the Weight of the Coals diminished or increased by being loaded in the wet or the dry?

Very little; the large Coal very soon dries; in small Coal it makes a greater Difference.

The wet is more effective when the Coals are small than when they are larger?

It is.

You were bred up as a Mining Engineer under your Father, were you not?

Yes.

He had the Charge, at the Time, of Lord Elgin's Collieries?

Yes.

From that you were appointed by the Court of Session to take Charge of the Collieries in Ayrshire?

Yes, I was.

The Witness is directed to withdraw:

Mr. Apsley Pellatt is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Glass Manufacturer?

I am.

[167]

Whereabouts is your Glasshouse?

The Falcon Glasshouse, Holland Street, Blackfriars.

By what Fuel do you carry on your Manufacture?

A good deal depends upon the Coals which happen to be in the Market; but the Coals we ordinarily make use of are common Coals; Shipcote and Lambton's Primrose, which are much better Coals; also Bewsham's Walls End; those are what we are using now, and to which we rather give the Preference.

Have you ever thought of substituting any other Fuel for Coals in your Manufacture?

About Twelve Pounds Weight of Newcastle Coal is required to manufacture One Pound of Flint Glass, at the Cost, in London, of about Two-pence. Common Flint Glass is selling in London at from One Shilling to Fourteen-pence per Pound, including Duty; and for Exportation, when Drawback is deducted, at from Fivepence to Seven-pence per Pound. The Coal in London is therefore a Charge on the Export Price of common Glass of from Thirty to Forty per Cent. The above Charge of Two-pence for Twelve Pounds of Coals in London supposes a Bushel of Coals to weigh about 72 lbs.; the Chaldron costing about 38s. on the Average, including all Expences. The Particulars are, Commission for buying, 1s.; Lighterage, 1s. 3d.; Backing or Porterage, 2s. 2d.; Metage and Market Dues, 9d.; Wharfage 6d.; Average Price of Coals in the Pool, 32s.; Total Cost, 37s. 8d.; which is about our present Average of Coal.

It costs you 5s. 8d. only from the Pool to your Works?

Precisely so.

Do you convey them at your own Expence?

Yes.

Is there any Cartage included in that?

We are so near to the Wharf, that the Backing by the Porters prevents the Necessity for that.

The Backing is taking the Sacks on the Porter's Back, and so conveying them from the Barge to the Warehouse?

Yes.

How much do you estimate the Operation of Backing at?

Two Shillings and Two-pence.

How far have they to convey the Coals?

I should imagine probably from 80 to 100 Yards.

How long has your Manufactory been established in London?

My Father had it before me, and I think for nearly 100 Years those Works have been going; certainly for above Eighty, which I have traced. The Works have been in our Family about 30 Years.

Do you find any Difficulty in competing with the Manufacturers whose Establishments are in Counties in the Neighbourhood of Coals?

Considerably so, for common Goods.

Then the Duty on Sea-borne Coals of 6s. per Chaldron, and the Expences of Delivery in the Port of London, are a Bonus in favour of the Country Manufacturers?

Certainly so.

In consequence of those Circumstances, have you ever had in Contemplation to substitute Wood for Coal in your Manufactory?

[168]

I have. Flint Glass might be manufactured on the French or German System in London probably as cheap with Wood Fuel as with Coal. With Coal the Glass requires Sixty Hours to fuse and fine, whereas with Wood the Operation is effected in at least One Third the Time. Wood Beech Spokes may be purchased from Henley, Uxbridge and other Places, at from Fourteen to Fifteen Shillings per Hundred in Number, which weigh about Ten Pounds each. At this Rate, Twelve Pounds Weight of Wood would cost about 2d., nearly the same as Twelve Pounds Weight of Coal. I took the Trouble, some Three or Four Years since, to visit France, Germany and Holland, with a view of making myself acquainted with the Principle of Glass-making on the Wood System (finding that I could get a Pound of Wood for the same Price as a Pound of Coal), and at that Time Coal was at a higher Rate than it is now. I seriously proposed to manufacture it by Wood, if I found that decidedly to my Advantage; and I returned conscious that in London it could be manufactured cheaper by Wood; but on Reflection, having laid out a very large Capital on the Coal System, I abandoned the Idea on that Ground, and on that alone, or I would have given the System an Experiment.

Of those Descriptions of Coals which you say you use, is there any great Proportion of small amongst them?

There are a good many small amongst them.

Do you find any Difficulty in consuming that small Coal?

The great Difficulty I find is in not being able to get enough of them; they are cheaper in the London Market, and I could use them profitably to a larger Extent.

For the Purpose of your Manufactory, you prefer the small to the large?

Looking to the important Difference in Price.

Do you ever buy whole Cargoes of small Coal?

I should be happy to do it, but I find Difficulties in doing it. I was last Year in Sunderland, and solicited by a Correspondent of mine, who purchases Glass of me, to purchase small Coal of him, which he promised to take out in Glass, and on returning, I made Inquiries, and wrote to him. After considerable Delay, and writing him a Second Letter, I got a Reply, that in consequence of the Limitation of the Vends, small Coals could not be sent to London, and on that Account he begged to decline it. I have the Letter in my Pocket.

How does the Limitation of the Vend prevent the small Coal coming to London?

I cannot answer that Question; but it had the Effect of preventing my having the Quantity I wished.

What do you mean by the Limitation of the Vend?

I will beg to read the Letter.-"Sunderland, 12th November 1829, Signed H. Panton. Messrs. Pellatt and Green. Gentlemen, I have your esteemed Favour, and would have replied respecting the Coals before; but on account of the Vends being entered into, we were not allowed to send small Coals to London, although I entertained a Hope that I would be able to send you a Cargo, and only To-day it has been finally determined by the Coal Owners that none but round Coals are to be exported to London. I beg to annex you the Prices of round Coals free on board here, which I sell. I shall be glad, if any will answer your Purpose, to ship you a Cargo. I am, Gentlemen, yours respectfully, H. Panton."

Did you ever try Coke?

[169]

Yes, we make a great deal of Coke; but there again the Difficulty of getting the small Coals stands in our Way.

Did you ever try to get small Coal from the Port of Newcastle?

I have not; I rather hoped there would have been Ships in the London Market sufficient to supply me; but for Five or Six Markets there have been few or none, and I have bought Mr. Horne's Screenings at a much higher Price.

Did you ask for any particular Description of Coals, or only small Coals generally?

Small Coals generally; but I told him we should prefer Lambton's Nutts, which were a small degree larger than the very smallest. There were Three Years that I registered the precise Quantity of Coals which we have bought, distinguishing what I would term the Four Summer Months of April, May, June and July, and I find the Average in London 6s. per Chaldron less for those Four Months than the other Eight Months during the Three Years of 1821, 1822 and 1823; finding that, I was disposed not to order Cargoes direct, but to have large Stowage, and to buy them during the Summer Months; a Practice I have since continued. The Object I have in view in making these Observations would, of course, be a Reduction of Duty, if it were possible to convince the Government that that could be afforded; and I am satisfied that the Remark made by many, that were the Duty taken off the Public would not have the Advantage, is not well-founded, inasmuch as I find that in those Years which were before the Reduction of the Duty, the Price was from 6s. to 8s. a Chaldron upon an Average higher than it is now.

Are you aware that there was a Reduction in the Price of Freight within the same Time?

I am not.

That enabled you to manufacture the Article cheaper than you did when the Coals were dearer?

We have, unfortunately, by Competition and the bad State of Trade, been driven to the Necessity of doing that or putting out our Furnace. In the Observations I had an Opportunity of making in France, I found they could manufacture Glass quite as cheap on the Wood-side as in Newcastle at the Pit's Mouth.

The Wood answers as well?

With regard to the Glass, it answers for the common Glass better, inasmuch as by firing with open Pots the Flame comes at once in contact with the Surface of the Metal, and that will render it fine in Twelve or Fourteen Hours; whereas we require Sixty Hours, or even Eighty Hours, with Coal.

How is it with Glass of a finer Description?

With Glass of a finer Description, I am of Opinion that Coal is a better Material; for we are obliged to have covered Pots, and that saves it from carbonized Matter, or any thing that will injure the Glass; but it requires a considerably longer Time to melt.

Are there considerable Glass Works in the Neighbourhood of Newcastle?

[170]

There are. I should think about Three Farthings a Pound would be the Advantage which a Manufacturer at the Coal Pit Mouth has over the London Manufacturer. I do not conceive that if the Duty were taken off it would have the Effect of tempting the Manufacturers to London; for then the Freight and the Difference of Price would make it nearly Three to One in favour of the Manufacturer at the Pit's Mouth, whereas now it may be Four to One. Some have apprehended an Evil on that Ground, for which I conceive there is no Foundation.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to this Day Se'nnight, One o'Clock.