Coal Trade: Minutes of evidence, 13 March 1830

Die Sabbati, 13 Martii 1830.

[125]

The Lord President in the Chair.

Mr. William Horne is called in, and further examined as follows:

Have you brought with you the Statement you were requested to prepare?

I have; I have brought an Estimate of the Expence for One Year of my Coal Wharf, and likewise a comparative Statement of the Charges of the Cartage of Coals with that of other Articles.

The Witness delivers in the same, which is read, and is as follows:

13th March 1830. (Signed) William Horne.

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A Comparative Statement of Charges for Cartage of Coals with other Articles, &c.

For One Chaldron of Coals, weighing with the Sacks about 28 Cwt., to any Part of London, Westminster and the Environs, is 6s., out of whch is paid 1s. per Chaldron for loading, and the Sacks cost about 2d. per Chaldron, leaving 4s. 10d. clear.

The regulated Charge for Cartage of the same Weight of other Goods, and no Expence of loading and Sacks, is For 1 Mile and a Half 6s. 4d. 2 Miles 7s. 1d. 2 Miles and a Half 8s. 10d.

If a Cargo of an inferior Description of Coals is sold to those Coal Merchants who supply the poorer Class of Customers in London, is it their Custom to sift out the small Coal?

I should rather suppose not. I do not think the poor Class get their Coals so round as the Housekeepers do. I beg leave to add, that what little I know of Dealers who supply the poorer Class in general, they buy the best Coals, or the best Quality of Coals; I could shew from One Man, who takes 600 Chaldron of Coals of me, who sells them by the Bushel Measure, that he buys them at the top Price of our Coals, or One and Two Shillings a Chaldron under.

Do you conceive that Description of Dealer does any thing in the way of breaking the Coals to increase the Measure?

I think it very likely that he does to a small Extent. I am convinced that it is to his Interest to do so.

You stated in your former Evidence that if Coals were to be sold by Weight instead of Measure, there would be no Occasion for any Meter; did that refer to Land Meters?

To Land Meters only.

In the Paper you have put in you charge 20s. per Week for the Keep of the Horse?

I have found it has cost me rather more than that last Year.

How do you feed your Horses?

I have no exact Account. I believe it is about Half a Bushel of Oats per Day; there is so much Competition in the Cartage of Coals in London, I have tried all Means to find out how I could reduce my Expences in Horses.

Six Carmen are charged at 9s. a Week; that is exclusive of what is paid to them by the Customer?

Yes.

How much is charged to the Customer for the shooting?

Merely according to the Labour the Man does; he makes his Charges.

Can you give any Notion of that on an Average?

It is very difficult to make an Average, but I should think about Fifteen-pence per Chaldron.

How much a Day do you reckon those Carmen to earn altogether, including their Pay and what they receive from the Customers?

Somewhere about Ten Shillings a Day.

What Description of Men are they who require so much as Ten Shillings a Day?

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They are Men who have lived with us a great many Years; it is a very great Object with us to get honest Men, for I believe Cases have occurred where Carmen have driven away a Cart-load of Coals and delivered them to another Person unknown to his Employers.

You charge 25s. a Week each for your Horse-keepers; is that the usual Price for a Horse-keeper in London?

I believe it is. I should be glad to get them for less; their Work is early and late; there is a great deal to do.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. George Chicken is called in, and further examined as follows:

Do you wish to correct your former Evidence?

Yes, I do with respect to the Ingrain; I stated that the Ingrain was not included in the Statement I had given in of the Quantity that the Ships make out, which I find it is; as respects the Freight of the Vessel, when the Ship is freighted the Coal Owners receive for every Chaldron of Coals that is delivered, Ingrain included; when the Coal is on his own Account, Ingrain is then deducted. I gave in a Statement that the Meter's Pay is 3s. per Day, I find that it is 3s. 6d.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. John Charrington is called in, and examined as follows:

You live at Shadwell?

I do.

You are a Coal Merchant?

I am.

Have you ever considered the Propriety of buying and selling Coals by Weight instead of Measure?

I have never had Occasion to sell Coals by Weight; my Mode of Sale has always been by Measure.

Have you at all considered the Question, how far the Mode of selling Coals might be altered from Measure to that of Weight?

I think there are some Objections to Weight, but taking it on the whole I should prefer Weight to Measure.

What are the principal Objections which you think hold to the selling by Weight instead of by Measure?

I think as it applies to the Delivery from the Ship it would be certainly more correct, both as it regards Buyer and Seller, that they should be delivered by Weight; it is more easily ascertained; there are some Inconveniences attending Delivery by the Waggons certainly; and as it relates to the Wetness of the Coals, if Coals are very wet I should apprehend that the Customers would not like to receive them so readily as they would if they were dry.

Or by Measure?

Certainly not.

Have you ascertained that there is a considerable Increase of Weight if the Coals are wetted by the natural Operation of the Atmosphere?

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I have had Notice of my being examined only last Evening, therefore I have not had an Opportunity particularly of ascertaining that Point; but I believe in small Coals there is some Difference, perhaps to the Extent of Ten or Twelve per Cent., in large Coals not, perhaps, more than Three or Four; that is my Opinion, without any Experiment upon the Subject.

With respect to the Inconveniences in the Delivery by the Waggons, of what Nature are those?

Of course I am not enabled to ascertain, not yet having seen any Plan; if a Customer wishes to have the Coals weighed there will be, perhaps, some little Detention. I am not aware of any great Inconvenience. Upon the whole, I should prefer Weight to Measure.

Has this always been your Opinion since this Matter was talked of?

Not exactly; I have considered the Subject more particularly within the last Week, and have come to that Conclusion.

With respect to the Land Meterage, are you of Opinion that any Advantage arises from the System of Land Meterage as at present conducted?

I should think certainly not; rather a Disadvantage.

Do you cart your own Coals?

Yes; I keep Two or Three and Twenty Horses.

Do you cart the whole of your Coals?

No; about One Fourth of those I purchase.

Do you hire any Cartage?

Yes; when I have more Business than I can well get through, I of course hire, which I do occasionally, particularly in Winter.

Are there any Persons who keep Waggons and Horses for the express Purpose of hiring them out to the Coal Merchants for the Conveyance of Coals?

Not in my District, for the express Purpose; but I have Occasion sometimes to apply to my Neighbours, who are Carmen, for their Assistance in carting, when I have more than the usual Demand.

You mean Carmen who employ their Horses and Waggons in removing Goods of other Descriptions?

Yes.

In such Cases, do you pay those Persons for the Hire of their Horses and Carts, or does the Customer pay?

I pay them.

Do you charge 6s. per Chaldron to the Customer in that Case?

If I am selling Coals to Noblemen or Gentlemen, termed Housekeepers, I am in the habit of charging 11s. or 12s. on the Pool Price, then, of course, the 6s. is included. I make a Distinction in delivering Coals to Sugar Refiners, or to Brewers or Distillers, which I am in the habit of doing to the great Consumers of Coals; the Charges then are distinct and different.

Do those Persons generally live in the Neighbourhood of the River?

No; it may be a Mile, or Two Miles, or Half a Mile from the Water Side.

What do you charge to that latter Description of Customers, above the Pool Price?

From Seven to Eight Shillings per Chaldron.

Upon what Grounds do you make the Distinction?

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From the large Orders that I receive, and from the Facility of Delivery; I can deliver Fifty, Sixty or Seventy Chaldrons per Day; whereas if I am sending them to a Gentleman's House I shall be enabled to deliver only Forty Chaldrons, perhaps.

To Gentlemen and Housekeepers, you calculate the Charge of carting at 6s. per Chaldron?

The Charge of Cartage may be fairly taken at about 6s. per Chaldron, as a Part of the 11s. or 12s. that is understood to be, with a Twelvemonth's Account, the Credit Price.

When you employ those hired Carmen do you pay them 6s. per Chaldron for the Conveyance of the Coals?

Not exactly.

Can you state what you do pay to those Persons whom you so hire?

In some Instances 5s., in some 4s. 6d., using my own Sacks, and my own Men putting them into the Waggons of those Persons

When you put on the 11s. or 12s. of which you have spoken, is not there something put on for the Expence of putting the Sacks into your own Waggon?

No; that is included in the Charge of 11s. or 12s.

Is not that One of the Items of the 12s. you charge, over and above the Pool Measure? do they consider the Charge expressly for conveying the Coals into the Waggon?

I am quite certain it includes the Sum I pay to Porters.

Then the 6s. charged as Part of that 11s. or 12s. is for the mere Cartage?

And for the Porterage; that reduces it to 5s.

Among the Items which comprise the whole of that 11s. or 12s. is there not a distinct Sum for this Porterage?

Certainly not, from the 6s.

How do you make up the 11s. or 12s.?

The Cartage, including Porterage, would be 6s. per Chaldron, the Lighterage would be 2s., making 8s., the Commission 2s., and the Remainder would be Metage; the Ship Metage is included, about 9d. per Chaldron (and that is included in the 11s.)

The whole of those you have mentioned come to 10s. 9d.?

Yes; it is nearly Eleven Shillings.

Is not the Metage on board the Ship paid by the Ship Owner?

It is paid by the Merchant who purchases; I believe the City of London make the Charge; in fact it is 8d. per Chaldron, and about One Penny a Chaldron City Dues.

Is not that paid, in the Delivery of the Ship, by the Ship Owner?

If I purchase Coals at 40s. of the Factor, it is exclusive of 8d. per Chaldron Metage and City Dues, making nearly 9d. per Chaldron.

You say it is 9d. you pay for Metage and Dues?

Yes.

Do you know how that Sum of 9d. is made up?

No, I do not; I know it has been Eight-pence for Twenty Years, I think I may venture to say.

Is not that paid to the Ship Owner; is it not a Part of the Charge on the Coals before they get into your Possession at all?

A Coal Factor would answer that Question better than I can do; I know that I pay it; if I purchase Coals at 40s. a Chaldron I am to pay that 9d.

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Can you give the Committee any Paper that can shew to them the Particulars of that Twelve Shillings?

I have endeavoured to enumerate the whole.

To whom do you pay that 9d.?

To the Coal Factor of whom I purchase the Coals, invariably.

You get the Profit of the Ingrain upon the Delivery when you buy a Cargo of Coals?

If I send them to a Consumer of Coals, for instance a Sugar Refiner, I send the Ingrain; or to a Distiller, I send the Ingrain with them; I get no Profit with it. If I send Twelve Sacks to the Chaldron to a Housekeeper Customer, there would be no Ingrain allowed; I deliver many Thousand Chaldrons without getting any Ingrain at all; I am not entitled to it.

As the Law at present stands, you send a Ticket with every Cartload of Coals you sell, which is delivered to the Customer?

Yes; One or Two Tickets.

Have you One of those Tickets with you?

I am sorry that I have not.

Do not a Number of People, who set up as Coal Merchants, embrace this Line of Business on account of the large Profits to be realized between the Purchase of the Coals from the Ship in the Pool and the Delivery of them into the Cellars of the Public?

I really am not enabled to answer that Question in the Affirmative, because I have no means of judging from other Individuals; there are a great Number of Persons in the Coal Trade who do not go to the Coal Exchange; that they purchase Coals, I have not the least Doubt, for a certain Profit.

That is, the Profit that they expect to get by their Business?

I apprehend they would not embark in the Business unless they expected a fair Profit.

The Charges amount to 12s. a Chaldron; would not that be considered a handsome Remuneration and Source of Profit to the Merchant supplying the Public, without the Addition of the other well-known Sources of Profit?

I consider that 12s. per Chaldron is not more than a remunerating Price to me, provided I give Twelve Months Credit; if I do not give Twelve Months Credit I do not charge 12s.; I should allow a Discount of 2s. at least. I should be very glad to deliver at 10s., provided I was paid at any Time within Three Months.

Are the Measure received from the Ship and the Bushel Measure sent to the Consumer the same, or is there a Difference?

There is decidedly a Difference; the One being delivered by the Vat, and the other by the Bushel.

The Vat Measure from the Ship is very much in favor of the Buyer, is it not?

I mentioned before that Three Fourths of the Coals I deliver are delivered precisely as I receive them, without any Land Metage.

Will not 63 Chaldrons from the Ship measure by Bushel 68 to the Buyer, more or less?

[131]

I am not aware of that; it depends on Circumstances; for instance, 5 Chaldrons of Coals Pool Measure will sometimes realize less than Five Chaldrons by Land Metage; it will sometimes realize 63 Sacks, and sometimes more; by Act of Parliament the legal Measure by Bushel is Twelve Sacks to the Chaldron; but on a Customer taking Five Chaldrons, by Act of Parliament he is entitled to 63 Sacks, Five Times Twelve and Three Sacks of Ingrain. I have previously said that Measure from the Ship is not invariably the same.

It is generally in favor of the Buyer, is it not?

Perhaps it may be.

Does not Breakage of round Coals in the Craft or in Retailers' Hands make out a much larger Quantity?

I never gave Directions to have any large Coals broken; but if I am asked whether large Coals measure more or less than small, I should undoubtedly say that large Coals measure more than small, that is, that the same Quantity of large Coals if broken would produce more upon their Re-measurement than the small would produce on their Re-measurement.

A larger Quantity is of course made out if they are broken?

I think so.

Are there not Two Descriptions of Coal Merchants, one termed the First Coal Merchants, and the other the Second and Third Coal Merchants?

I should divide it perhaps in this Way, that the Coal Merchant who goes to the Coal Exchange to purchase of the Factor may be called the First Buyer; there are other Coal Merchants who purchase from the First Buyers, and they are to a considerable Number.

Do the First Coal Merchants and the Second and Third Coal Merchants charge the same Prices to the Customers, or those from whom they receive Orders?

I should apprehend that they charge about the same, the Twelve Shillings probably to those termed Housekeepers.

Is it not the Fact, that the Second and Third Rate Coal Merchants are Evils in the Trade, by laying on exorbitant Charges upon the Orders they obtain for Coals from People who do not take the Trouble of investigating the Cause?

I am not enabled to answer that Question.

Do you know whether they charge a greater Price than the First Coal Merchants?

Those Persons who buy of me to sell again have not informed me what their Charges are, but I presume it is according to the Credit that is given.

Are not many of the Frauds complained of, from the Supply of Coals to the Public, chiefly committed by inferior Coal Merchants, to realize as large a Profit as possible on the Orders they obtain? can you give any Information upon that Subject?

I really cannot.

You are a considerable Coal Merchant?

Yes.

Are you aware that any of the large Coal Merchants allow any Party who obtains for them Orders for private Consumers Two and Three Shillings, or even Four Shillings a Chaldron, which the first Coal bears, taking all further Responsibility and Trouble upon themselves?

I have occasionally sold Coals under those Circumstances.

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What have you allowed them?

About Half a Crown or 3s. per Chaldron, never exceeding 3s.

Is that a System that is generally practised by the first Coal Merchants?

I believe that there are very few Coal Merchants who keep an Establishment of Waggons and Horses that have not some more or less Customers of that Description.

That becomes a very onerous additional Charge to the Public, does it not; it is 3s. more than the Price in the Pool?

It is not 3s. more, as those Persons are supposed to charge the same as the First Buyer; it should also be recollected that they do not pay 12s. to the First Buyer, but 8s. or 10s. at the utmost.

You are a first Buyer, and they buy from you?

Exactly so.

They pay you 3s. per Chaldron, consequently you do not suppose they lose that 3s.?

I pay them 3s.; they do not pay it to me; I allow Five per Cent. to them.

If the Coal Market was open, and they went to buy their Coals there, they would save that Five per Cent., would not they?

It is perfectly open; they may purchase their own Coals if they please; but they have not Credit on the Market; they are not known to the Factors.

Do you know any thing of the Coal Buyers encouraging the System of their Lightermen receiving Dispatch Money from the Ships, and paying them less Wages accordingly?

As to the former Part of the Question I have no doubt that something of that kind has been done, but I do not pay my Lightermen less Wages on that Account.

Do not many Coal Buyers now supply large Consumers, such as Confectioners and Brewers, for the mere Charge of Lighterage alone, all the Profit they obtain in the Transaction being the Discount and Scorage allowed them by the Factors?

That can only apply to Coals delivered by Water; for instance, to any Brewer on the Thames, the Charge would then be the Lighterage, the Commission of a Shilling, and the Ship Metage, as I before mentioned; those are the only Charges made to our large Consumers, Brewers and Distillers, on the River of course; where it is Inland there is an extra Charge for Cartage.

Would not you, as a large Coal Buyer, who employ Lighters, Waggons and Horses, or any of the large Coal Buyers, be glad to supply Customers generally, if the Orders came direct from them to you, without going through the Medium of Middle-men, in the Character of Coal Merchants, at a large Advance on the Market Price, and without attempting to make any further Profit from the Sources referred to?

Undoubtedly; but large Profit is a very undefined Term. I should be glad to supply any Customer to any Extent, at a Charge certainly not exceeding 12s. per Chaldron to Housekeepers, where the Credit extends to Twelve Months; I supply them at much less, where the Credit is only Two Months.

[133]

Is it a Fact that the inferior Coal Buyers will make an Arrangement with the Coal Merchant, to supply them as follows: the Buyer's Commission a Shilling per Chaldron, Lighterage a Shilling, Cartage 4s. 6d.; the inferior Coal Merchants then charging to the Person who gives them the Order 16s. or 17s. above the Pool Price; in most Instances leaving a Profit of Seven or Eight Shillings, or Ten Shillings per Chaldron, to the inferior Coal Buyer?

I should think any Gentleman or Purchaser of Coals would be very much to blame; he would not go to Market with his Eyes open, if he were to pay 16s. or 17s. when he must know that every respectable Coal Merchant, the First Buyers particularly, would be glad to deliver those Coals at from Eleven to Twelve Shillings. I would not undertake to deliver to any Coal Merchant, Coals on the Terms stated in the first Part of the Question.

The Question is put to you, on your general Knowledge and Information of the Mode in which the Trade is carried on, whether those Practices do not exist?

Not to my Knowledge; I should think not, certainly.

The Coal Merchant charges the top Price at Market, does he not?

I certainly reckon if the highest Price is 40s., the Price then delivered would be 52s., as I stated before.

You charge that which is the highest Price for the particular Species of Coal you buy?

If I bought one Coal at 35s., I should not charge 52s. for it.

You charge the Price of the Coal that you buy at the Market Price of the Coal?

Yes.

Supposing you receive an Order for Stewart's Walls End, which may be at 35s., and that in the Coal Market of that Day the New March Walls End are at 32s., do you never send the Stewart's Walls End and the New March Walls End mixed, charging the Price of the highest Coal 35s.?

Never.

Can you take upon yourself to say that is never done in the Trade?

I really cannot undertake to say whether it is or not.

Do you not know, from your Information, that that is a Trick carried on by the Second and Third Coal Merchant?

Not from my own Knowledge; but I presume that may be the Case in some Instances; if a Gentleman gives me an Order for Stewart's Walls End Coals, and the Price is 35s. at Market, I send him Stewart's Walls End Coals, and charge him 46s. or 47s. according to Circumstances.

Do you know any thing of the Factor's Charges to the Ship Owner or Coal Owner?

I do not.

When you say you charge 11s. or 12s. per Chaldron, you did not mean that that 11s. or 12s. is so much Profit to yourself, but it is composed of the several Sums you have mentioned in the former Part of your Evidence?

Exactly so.

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Are you in the habit of sifting the small Coal out in the Barges or on the Wharf?

Not exactly sifting; we have a considerable Quantity of small Coals; I am sorry to say that is the Case.

Do you not sift the small Coal out before you deliver it to your Customers?

Sifting implies using a Machine; my Men put them aside, we separate the small from the large.

That is, to a certain Extent, a dead Loss to you?

Exactly so.

Of course you sell the small Coal at an inferior Price?

Yes, I do.

Do you mean to say that when you send out a Chaldron of Coals, purporting to be Stewart's Walls End, for instance, no Part of that Chaldron is of another Description of Coals?

In Nine Cases out of Ten I should say they were not any thing but the Stewart's Walls Ends.

Is it not the Custom in the Trade to send a Part of every Chaldron of Coals of an inferior Description?

I have heard that it is a Custom, certainly, to mix Coals occasionally.

When you say that it is a Custom, certainly, to mix Coals, do you mean before they are put into the Sack, or merely in shooting into the Consumer's Cellar?

I should say, in shooting into the Consumer's Cellar; that the best Coals are not always sufficiently large, and then large Coals of a Second Description are used with them.

For instance, with a Cargo of Stewart's Walls End, what other Description of Coals would you send to mix with them?

I have heard the New March mentioned, and Bell and Robson's, and other Coals, Heaton Walls End, for instance.

Are they all charged alike, as Stewart's Walls End?

If I were to sell them under those Circumstances, I should not charge so much as I should if they were altogether Stewart's Walls End.

Is the Estimate of Expence of delivering Coals into the Cellar of the London Consumer, about to be read to you, correct?-Prime Cost of a Cargo of best Coal, 32s. 6d. Newcastle Chaldron, equal to 16s. 3d. London Chaldron. Average Freight required by the Ship Owner as a fair remunerating Freight, 11s. Average of Charges on a Cargo, exclusive of Freight, comprising King's Duties and City Dues and Factors Charges, 10s. Average of Price above the Market Price charged by the Coal Merchant, including Loss sustained by the Public from Breakage, Bushel Measure, &c. 16s. Charge made by the Coal Merchant to the Housekeeper, called Metage and Shooting, and which is exclusive of the 12s. per Chaldron allowed by the Act of Parliament, 2s. Making a Cost, by the present System of Sale, Two Pounds Fifteen and Three-pence?

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As to the Three first Items, the Coal Merchant has nothing whatever to do with them, and I am totally ignorant of them; the Two last I shall be happy to speak to. The 16s. stated cannot be correct; I shall be happy to deliver any Quantity of Coals to Housekeepers at a long Credit at 12s., if paid for in Three Months at 10s. As to the Charge for Shooting and Metage, that is stated at 2s., I should consider that to be correct; that is, the Land Metage is distinguished from the Ship Metage.

What was the Price of Stewart's Walls End the last Market Day?

Yesterday the Stewart's Walls End were 34s. 9d.

Was there any material Difference between the Prices this Month and the Prices in the Market in the Month of March last Year?

I will not be positive as to the Month of March, but certainly in 1829, probably in January or February, as far as my Recollection serves me, I bought a considerable Quantity at 30s. 6d. to 31s. of Stewart's Walls End and Hetton's Walls End; it might have been in the Course of the Summer possibly.

Can you assign any Reason for the very depressed State of the Coal Market at present?

I attribute it to the very considerable Quantity lately imported.

Do you know that there was a more considerable Quantity imported last Year than in the preceding Year?

I cannot state that positively; I am in the habit of attending the Coal Market Three Days a Week, and I know when the Market is crowded or glutted, which it has been lately, the Prices have consequently declined.

A very considerable Quantity of Coals has been sent in this Year?

I should conceive there has been more than usual sent in.

More than last Year, up to the Month of March?

I will not undertake to say that; for, as I have mentioned before, they were low last Year, but I think they declined in Price later than March.

Have you ever known any Deficiency or Want of Supply in the Market at any Time?

Frequently I have known a Want of Supply.

How long have you known the Coal Exchange?

I have been in the Coal Trade since 1802, and within my Recollection Coals have sold as high as from £4 10s. to £5 per Chaldron in the Market, but that for a very short Time.

Have there not been always Ships remaining unsold every Market Day?

More or less, I should think.

There have been always Ships remaining unsold?

Almost always.

Have there not been for the last Three or Four Years?

Yes, certainly.

How then can there have been a Deficiency in the Market?

If there are not many Ships at the Market, there may have been only Two Ships, or Three, or Four. I have known so small a Quantity remaining unsold as Three or Four Ships.

Can you give any other Reason for Coals being at so low a Price now but your Belief that a very large Quantity was laid in last Year, and that the Coal Merchants Cellars are quite full of Coals?

No, I am not of the Opinion that Coal Cellars are full; the Supply has for a short Period been more than the Coal Merchants could vend.

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Since the Beginning of this Year your Supply has been greater than you could vend?

Yes, than we could well dispose of.

Do you know any thing of what is called an Arrangement between the Coal Owners in the North relative to the Supply of Coals to the London Market?

I know nothing of my own Knowledge; of course I have heard it discussed on the Market.

Do you know whether such exist now or not?

I do not know that of course; the Supply has been very large lately.

Has the Supply been as large now as it was this Time last Year?

Unless I could refer to the State of the Coal Market, I can hardly answer that.

You speak from comparing it with some other Year; has it not been as large as any Year you have ever known it?

It has been so considerable as to reduce the Market, merely from that Circumstance, I will undertake to say.

If there remained not more than Three or Four Ships unsold, would you consider that as a Proof of an abundant or a short Supply?

There may be Three or Four Ships only remaining unsold, and 140 or 150 Ships working in the Pool, therefore the Supply altogether would be about 150 Ships.

If there were only Three or Four, would you consider that an abundant or short Supply, independent of those working?

Sometimes it happens there are only Fifty Ships at work in the River and Three or Four unsold, then of course the Supply would be short.

In what respect are the Stewart's Walls End a superior Coal to the others?

I think the Stewart's Walls End most candidly as good or better than any Coal that is sent to the London Market. I purchase a larger Quantity perhaps of Hetton Walls End, because they are somewhat larger.

In what respect are they better; are they more economical?

Yes, and the Quality is most excellent.

Do they burn better?

They burn cleaner, with less of White Ash, which is very obnoxious to the Public; next to that is Lord Durham's Lambton's Walls End.

Do they come rounder?

I cannot say that that is the Case with Stewart's Walls End; provided they came larger I should give the Preference to them; the Hetton's come very large now, and that induces me to buy a large Quantity of them.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

[137]

Mr. William Pegg junior is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you live?

At Old Barge House Wharf.

What is your Business?

That of a Coal Merchant.

Have you ever considered the Question of selling Coals by Weight instead of Measure?

I have.

What is your Opinion upon that Subject?

I have thought that the Public would get supplied at a cheaper Rate, selling by Weight rather than by Measure.

Have you never been of a different Opinion upon that Subject?

I was, before I entered into the Merits of the Question.

You are now convinced it would be better for all Parties, that the Coals should be sold by Weight instead of by Measure?

I am.

Are you of Opinion that the Land Meterage is of any Service to any Party in the Trade, or to the Consumer?

I am of Opinion that the Public pay a much higher Price in consequence of the Detention occasioned by the present System of Land Meterage.

Do you mean a larger Price than is compensated by any Advantage that the Public derive from it?

Yes.

Are you aware that the greater Part of the Coal that is sold on the Regent's Canal is sold without any Metage at all?

I am aware of that.

Have you ever heard of any Complaint from the Want of the Interference of the Meters in that particular Part of the Town?

I have heard an Individual express himself as being obliged, from the Scrutiny he has been under, to give a much greater Proportion than where a Meter was stationed.

That was entirely to the Advantage of the Consumer?

Certainly.

How long have you been in the Coal Trade?

I have been a Partner in the House Five Years; Sixteen Years connected with the Trade altogether.

Are you in the habit of buying Stewart's Walls End?

Very often.

When you buy Stewart's Walls End, and a Customer sends you an Order for the best Coals, do you send that Customer the whole of his Order of Stewart's Walls End, or do you substitute some other Coals for Part of it?

If our Customer wishes Stewart's Walls End, he has the whole of them, but if, without mentioning Name, he orders a Quantity of best Coals, we often mix a lighter Coal with it, and send Half Stewart's Walls End and Half Bewicke's and Craster's; but in many Cases, where our Customers have large Fires, we have sent all Stewart's Walls End, or Lambton's, a Coal which is stronger and will give better Satisfaction. A respectable Merchant feels it his Interest to supply them properly.

[138]

Are not Bewicke's and Craster's the best Coals on the Tyne?

No; I think Russell's Walls End superior; there is a very little Difference in the Price between Russell's and Bewicke and Craster's Walls End.

Are you in the habit of sifting the Coal, either in the Barges or upon your Wharf?

Very often.

Can you state what Proportion you are in the habit of sifting over?

Taking the Average, Six Sacks in every Five Chaldrons; in many Cases more, in some not so much, according to the Part of the Ship from which we work our Coals.

What Objections had you originally to selling the Coals by Weight?

The Detention occasioned by Measure from the Ship, and Difficulties arising at the Wharf from Measurement; also the Difficulty the Public would have in ascertaining that they received their right Quantity.

How do you conceive now those Difficulties might be obviated?

Plans might be adopted by a Weigh-bridge at all the principal Coal Ports; it would be impossible to have a fairer Criterion than having close-bodied Carts to contain certain Quantities, and that would remove the Expence of Sacks; the Public would, by having Coals delivered in open Carts, have them shot down in such Quantities at their Doors, which would remove the Charge of shooting; and if they were dissatisfied, there might be the same as at Edinburgh and other principal Towns, where there are frequently Weigh-bridges, and the whole Quantity is re-weighed in Bulk; or there may be Engines erected by a Steelyard at the Tail of the Waggon, which might be sufficient to satisfy the Party at the Time.

Have you ever considered the Objection arising from the Coals being wetted?

I have.

Do you think that would have any great Effect?

I have prepared a Statement, thinking that Question would could before this Committee, by which I have satisfied myself particularly; the Stewart's Walls End increased, when wetted, Four Pounds Four Ounces per Cwt.; Bewicke and Craster's Walls End increased above Six Pounds, at which I was much surprised; large screened Coals Three Pounds Eleven Ounces, and small Coals Twelve Pounds Nine Ounces, taking the small Skreenings.

Was that when they were wetted on purpose, or by the mere Action of the Atmosphere?

Wetted on purpose; and it may be necessary for me to state, that after being wetted, they would not be in the same Space; I wetted 1 Cwt. of Coals, and put them in a particular Measure, and there was a larger Quantity after they were wetted.

The same Loss to the Consumer would have been occasioned if they had been sold by Measure, instead of Weight?

Not to the same Degree, but some Loss.

You do not speak from your own Knowledge of the Practice at Edinburgh?

[139]

No, but from Information I acquired. When my Objections were first stated at a Meeting of Two or Three in the Trade, it was inquired particularly what were my Objections to Weight; I thought it right to suggest the Objections, and on going into it, it was only the Difficulty of ascertaining the just Weight to the Consumer, but I think it is very easily ascertained, either by way of Weigh-bridge, or by fixing a Steelyard at the End of the Waggon; there might be many Expences saved, such as shooting, a Shilling a Chaldron; the Expence of Sacks; and Sixpence a Chaldron Metage.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. William Stark is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you live?

At Norwich.

What is your Occupation?

I am engaged principally in dyeing and dressing.

How is your City supplied with Coals?

Principally from Newcastle, by Yarmouth.

Have you any means of obtaining the Inland Coal?

There are a few Inland Coals come, but we do not consider them so well adapted for the Business of Norwich as the Newcastle Coals.

Are the Inland Coal delivered cheaper at Norwich than the Sea Coal?

I believe a little, but not very much.

What is the present Price of the Newcastle Coal at Norwich per Chaldron, at the present Time?

I think about 38s. or 39s.

That includes all The King's Duties, and every thing?

Yes, and the Freight.

Do you find any Difficulties in carrying on your Manufacture, in consequence of that high Price of Coals at Norwich?

We have lost a very large Proportion of Manufacture in consequence of the high Price of Coals; formerly all the Yarn used in Norwich was spun in Norwich and its Neighbourhood; since the Erection of Machinery, they have taken all the spinning from Norwich, and Hundreds of Families are now unemployed that were employed in that Department; many Suggestions have been made as to forming Establishments for spinning; not many Attempts certainly; but I believe if the Price of Coals were less, the Yarn would be spun by Machinery in Norwich, as well as in the North.

What Decrease of Price in Coals would enable you to carry on the Spinning in Norwich?

I am not able to answer that, but we consider the Duty on Coals very hard, for our great Competitors have no Duty to pay; our Coals must be dearer than theirs on account of the immense Freight and other Charges. I have a Statement here of One Cargo. (Producing the same.)

The Witness delivers in the same; which is read, and is as follows:

Norwich, July 1829.

Cost of a Cargo of Newcastle Coals delivered to the Consumer at Norwich.

[140]

Supposing the Coal Duty to be removed, would that make such a Difference in the Price as would enable you to resume the spinning, which you say has left the Place for Yorkshire?

I do not know that it would altogether, but it would materially contribute to it. The Wool is principally sent from Norfolk; it is spun in Yorkshire, and brought back in the Form of Yarn; of course there is the Carriage twice to pay. I believe, from the nearest Calculation I can make, that is about equal to what we should pay for Coals necessary to be used in spinning.

So that if Coals could be reduced to the Amount of 6s. per Chaldron, you conceive that would be sufficient to alter your Custom of sending the Wool to be spun in other Parts of England?

It would materially tend to do that, but whether it would be altogether sufficient to induce us to spin Yarn, I cannot say.

Does the Price of Coals affect you in your dyeing?

Very much so; and at this Time we are losing Part of the dyeing Business in consequence. Goods that have been manufactured in Norwich for many Centuries are now leaving Norwich, to be dyed in Yorkshire, because they can be dyed at a much cheaper Rate, which we attribute solely to the Coals, for the Labour is as cheap, and the Drugs we can purchase, of course, as cheap as they can in Yorkshire.

Are there a considerable Proportion of Persons out of Employ at present in Norwich?

I believe not less, in all Departments connected with the Manufactories, than 4 or 5,000 Persons.

Is there a great deal of consequent Distress?

Very great indeed.

Are there other Manufacturers in Norwich from whom you hear Complaints on account of the high Price of Coals?

The Manufactures of Norwich are principally confined to Two or Three Articles, Camlets, Bombazeens, and Plaids; those are the staple Manufactures of the Place, and of course Yarn is used for all; and that we are suffering materially in consequence of those Persons in Yorkshire taking a large Portion of the Worsted Trade.

[141]

You say some Coals come from the Interior to Norwich?

Very few indeed.

From what Part do they come?

They have sent some from Yorkshire, and also some of the Welch Coals, but they do not answer so well as the Newcastle Coals.

They are imported into Yarmouth?

Yes; we have none brought Inland, those we have all come Coastwise to Norwich.

What is the Price of the other Coals, as distinguished from the Newcastle, that come to you?

About 30s. or 31s. at this Time.

Do they buy the Newcastle Coals by Preference?

Yes; we consider that Two Bushels of them are equal to Three of the others. If the Duty were removed from the Coals we should not consider our Case so hard, for we think the Quality of the Coals we get from Newcastle as One Third better than any others we can get.

Are Coals brought up to Norwich by Barges?

Yes; they are brought to Yarmouth by Vessels of 120 Tons Burden, or thereabouts; then they are put into Barges of from Twenty to Thirty-five Tons Burden, which increases the Expence.

Do you know the Difference of the common Freight of Goods between Newcastle and Norwich and Newcastle and London?

No, I do not.

Do you know the Difference of Freight of Coals?

I believe about 2s. a Chaldron on the Average.

Do they go up the River far into the Country?

They go about from Thirty to Forty Miles into the Country.

Even there, notwithstanding their Increase of Price, they are more esteemed and bought than the Inland Coal?

Yes.

By the Inland Coal you speak of the Welch Coal and Yorkshire Coal?

Yes; we have tried the Yorkshire Coal brought down by Canal, but they do not answer the Purpose of the Manufacturers; they find that they burn out so much faster; the Quality of them does not adapt them so well for Furnaces.

How are the Coal Vessels unladen in your Port?

By Persons employed on Purpose to unload them, with an additional Charge.

Do they call them Whippers?

I believe they do.

There is the same Process as in the Port of London?

Precisely so.

You cannot speak with Certainty to the Places from which the Inland Coals come?

No; I know they are few, but I do not recollect the Names of the Places.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

[142]

Mr. Edward Tickner is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Member of the Common Council of London?

I am.

Have you turned your Attention to the Supply of Coals to the Port of London?

Yes, I have.

Will you state to the Committee what Improvement you conceive might be effected in that Supply?

[143]

The Subject has been under the Consideration of the Common Council for nearly Two Years past, and I have been an active Member of the Committee which has had this Subject under Consideration, with a view of reducing the Charges on the Delivery of Coals in the Port of London. It has formed the Subject of several Reports of the said Committee, which Reports have been adopted by the Common Council, and they have been communicated to the Lords of the Treasury, and so far as the Opinion of the Corporation can have any Effect, it is resolved to abolish the Land Coal Metage; and with regard to the Coal Market Penny, I believe it is the Wish of the Coal Trade that One Halfpenny should be retained for the Purpose of enlarging the present Coal Market; and it has been reported to the Common Council, and agreed to by the Common Council, that the other Halfpenny should be retained as a Pension to superannuated Land Coal Meters, provided the Land Coal Metage should be abolished. It is also resolved to abolish the present System of Coal Undertakers and Whippers, and to substitute free Labour in lieu thereof. I think it should be known to your Lordships, that the Provision in the Act of 47th George 3d, creating the present System of Coal Undertakers, did not originate with the Corporation, but with the Coal Trade in London. The Act does not give the Court of Aldermen any Power to reduce the Wages. So far as I understand the Opinion of the Members of the Corporation, as well as the Committee, there is a decided Opinion, and it is my own, in favour of weighing the Coals, as the most accurate Mode of ascertaining the Quantity; and also that it would be more to the Advantage of the Coal Owners, the fair and honest Part of the Coal Dealers, and more satisfactory and beneficial to the Public. I believe there are not Two Opinions in the Common Council on that Point. While the Corporation is anxious to concur in reducing the Expence at the Port of Delivery, it is at the same Time desirous there should be free and active Competition at the Ports of Shipment, without which my Opinion is, that there cannot be a fair and just Price of any thing. I refer to what is called a Regulation among the Coal Owners of the Tyne and Wear; and I understand the Object of that to be, to restrict the Vend of Coals, with a view of apportioning the Supply to the Demand, so as to obtain a greater Price on the Part of the Coal Owners. I have extracted from the Books of the Clerk of the Coal Market, and also from the Cocket Office at the Mansion House, the Price of the Russell's Walls End Coals, for instance, which I understand to have been less variable in its Quality than any other for a Number of Years, and taking that Account from 1793, and bringing it down to the present Period, it appears that from the Shipping the Price of that Coal per Newcastle or Double Chaldron was 18s.; that it rose with the Price of all other Commodities during the War, to nearly double that Amount, namely, 34s.; and which Price, or very nearly, namely 33s., it has sustained to the present Time, while all other Commodities have been reduced very nearly One Half. I have felt it my Duty to call the Attention of the Common Council to this Subject; and, in consequence of doing which, a great many Communications have been made to me, giving me Information upon the Subject. Now I understand that the Regulation, as it is called, was taken off during the last Year, and by the Account which I have obtained from the same Offices, it appears that the Price of Stewart's Walls End and Russell's Walls End fell during that Interval, namely the Interval between when the Regulation was taken off and the Period of its Resumption, the Price of those Two Coals fell 10s. per Chaldron. In January 1829, the Stewart's Walls End was 36s. 6d., and in June, July and August, when the Regulation did not exist, it was 26s. 6d.; in January 1829, Russell's Walls End was 33s. 6d., and in June, July and August, it was 23s. and 22s. 6d. I understand that in September the Regulation was resumed, after which Stewart's Walls End attained the Price of 32s. 6d. and the Russell's Walls End the same, according to the Account I have extracted from those Offices, which Account your Lordships can have of course authenticated by the proper Officers, if it should be thought proper to order them. I find that when this Regulation was off, the Price in the Market here, of the Stewart's Walls End, varied from 30s. to 32s., and when the Regulation was renewed, the Price rose to 36s. and to 41s. 6d.

Do you know the present Price of Stewart's Walls End Coals?

I do not at the present Time, but I understand the Price is low.

Do you know the Price of Stewart's Walls End, as compared with the Price of that same Coal, this Time last Year?

Not precisely, but I understand the Price is about the same, or probably cheaper, and I am informed that since Public Attention has been roused to this Subject, and in Anticipation of a Parliamentary Inquiry, an unusually large Quantity of Coals has been vended.

If there is a Regulation, how can that unusual Quantity of Coals have been vended?

I understand that the Persons making the Regulation have thought it expedient under the present Circumstances to make that larger Vend.

Have you positive Knowledge of that?

I have been informed from Sources that I have perfect Confidence in, but they are private and confidential; but if the Returns from the Coal Market of the Number of Ships and Quantity of Coals at Market now and for Two or Three Months back be compared with any corresponding Period, I believe it will be found that that which I have stated is true.

Are you aware that a considerable Number of Ships have been left unsold every Market Day?

I am fully aware of that.

Then in point of fact the Market has not been starved?

It has not.

Have you ever been at Newcastle or at Sunderland?

Yes, I have been at both Places, and have Friends and Relations there.

[144]

How long is it since you have been at Newcastle or Sunderland?

It is about Two Years.

Are you aware that the Expences of the Coal Owners at Newcastle have very considerably increased since the Period of 1793?

I have heard that the Mining is at much greater Depths than it was at that Period, but I am also informed that the great Improvement in Machinery has so facilitated and cheapened the Operation of Mining as to countervail the extra Trouble of going deeper for the Strata of Coal.

When you speak of Competition, do you know any thing which prevents Competition into the Port of London from any other Part of Great Britain with Coals?

No.

So that if London could be supplied cheaper from the Tees or the West Riding of Yorkshire, or any Part of England, there is nothing to prevent that Supply arriving in the Port of London?

Certainly not.

Then this Regulation, whatever it may be, can affect only a very small Portion of that which might be brought in for the Supply of the Port of London?

It can only affect that Portion certainly; but the Facilities for shipping at Newcastle and Sunderland I understood to be much cheaper, and the Voyage shorter, than from other Quarters; and the Quality of the Coal being better, the other Quarters have not the Chance of competing against the Prices and Quality of the Newcastle and Sunderland Coals.

In point of fact, have there not been several Cargoes of late Years sent from other Parts of the North of England to the Port of London?

I believe there have; and some of the Coal from Stockton has been considered almost equal in Quality to the best Sunderland Coal; and that if the Scheme for the Clarence Railway could be brought into practical Effect, there is a Coal in that District that would be approved of in the Market here, and might successfully compete with the Newcastle and Sunderland Coal?

What prevents the Clarence Railway being carried into Effect?

I understand that they have not Funds to complete the Project at present.

Do you know the Reason of their not being able to obtain Funds for that Purpose?

I know no other Reason than that of the present Scarcity of Money, the depressed State of the Trade; and from the Example of the Failure of so many Schemes in the Year 1825, there is a great Reluctance to enter on any Project, however promising it may be; I know of no other Reason than that.

Supposing there was a probability of a Supply of good Coal at a cheaper Rate by means of the Clarence Railway, is not that a Speculation that would induce Persons to advance their Money to promote it?

I should certainly think it is.

But, in point of fact, there is a Difficulty in finding the Funds for that Purpose?

[145]

I believe there is a strong Disposition in the Inhabitants of London to support the Clarence Railway, and from the Conviction that it would produce a beneficial Competition with the Newcastle and Sunderland Ports; and I have heard that a great Number of Individuals, with that view, are disposed to take each a small Number of Shares.

Then, if the Clarence Railway is established, there is nothing to prevent their coming into Competition with the Newcastle and Sunderland Owners?

Certainly not.

You say that this Coal from Stockton would compete with Newcastle and Sunderland Coal; have you ever heard that the best Seam, called the Hutton Seam, has been discovered in any of the Coal Country, the Coal of which you suppose is to be exported from Stockton?

I cannot precisely say as to the Name, only generally, that a Seam of Coal of good Quality has been discovered, and from which it is proposed to bring the Clarence Railway to the Month of the Tees.

Have you ever heard that the best Quality of Sunderland Coal has ever been found in the Country which you say would supply Coal to be exported from Stockton?

When the Petition of Mr. Blanchard, with respect to the Clarence Railway, was under the Consideration of the Committee of the Common Council, it was represented that a Coal equal in Quality to the best Sunderland Coal had been discovered, which might be connected, by means of this Railway, with the Port of the Tees.

Was that in Mr. Tennant's or Mr. Blanchard's Petition, or the Evidence of a Coal Viewer?

I think it was the Coal Viewer who was brought to give Evidence before the Committee, but his Name I do not recollect.

Was his Name Steel?

I do not think it was.

Have you got the Petitions which were presented to the Common Council?

I have not them with me, but I will attend again with them, if it is wished that they should be produced.

Did not they apply to the Common Council for a Loan of Money to aid in the Clarence Railway?

The Clarence Railway Petition generally asked for Aid, but as the Corporate Funds are not applicable to trading Purposes, if they had any (which they have not at the present Time), they could not be so applied.

You did not lend your Money, because they were not applicable to trading Purposes?

For Two Reasons; first, because the Corporation has none to spare at the present Moment; and if they had, those Funds are not applicable to trading Purposes.

What Ground have you for believing that, supposing this Coal exported from Stockton, the Proprietors who made the Application to you should not enter into just the same Arrangement which you state the Coal Owners of Sunderland and the Tyne have done?

[146]

It would undoubtedly be their Interest to enter into such Arrangement, and I should be of Opinion they would not want the Disposition to do so, because I should myself, were I one of the Parties, as every Man will naturally act for his own Interest; but I should think the greater the Number of Persons and the larger the Extent, the less probability would there be of their all agreeing, than a smaller Number of Persons.

This new Channel of Supply, so opened, would not, in your Opinion, at all insure the Public against that which you state to be a Grievance; namely, the Arrangement of the Coal Owners relative to their Property?

It would not absolutely protect the Public from a Combination (if I may call it so) comprehending those Proprietors; but I think it would be less likely, from this Circumstance, that the Number of Persons would be greater.

Have you seen the Evidence which has been given before this Committee, relative to the Arrangement of the Coal Owners?

I have seen the Evidence before the Committee of last Session of Parliament, but I have not read it lately.

Have you seen the Statement which has been generally circulated relative to this Arrangement, and the Profits of the Coal Owners?

Yes, I have, and I am informed that the Statement is rather overcharged; a Ship Owner (and I have been a Ship Owner in the Coal Trade myself some Years ago) informs me that several of the Items enumerated are actually paid by the Ship, out of the average Price of the Freight set down at 11s., so that 11s. is stated to be the Average of Freight, and that certain Things to the Amount of Two or Three Shillings are enumerated besides, which are paid by the Ship out of the 11s.

Can you state what those Things are?

No; if I had been aware of the Question being put, I would have obtained the Information.

Do you know the Price paid at the Pit's Mouth to the Coal Owner?

Only from that Statement; it was there said to be 12s. 9½d.

Do you know what is charged in the Port of London?

I cannot precisely say at this Moment what all the Charges are.

Do you think that the Coal Owners are the People who keep up the Price of Coals, and who charge so exorbitant as the Charge is now upon the Coals consumed in London?

I think there are Faults at both Ends; that there are Abuses and Charges, which may be dispensed with here in the Port of Delivery, there can be no Question about; and I believe the Corporation to be sincerely desirous of getting rid of all of them, so far as is practicable and just.

Can you shew that it is the Coal Owners and this Arrangement that keep up these exorbitant Charges to the Public in London?

The Charges in the Port of London, and such as are considered exorbitant, I do not think can be charged upon the Coal Owners of the North, certainly; but there are Faults there.

Are you aware of the Newcastle and Sunderland Price of Coals under the present Regulation, as compared with that under the former Regulation?

Not precisely, but I believe it to be less than the former.

Are you at all prepared to state, that the Coals can be worked at Newcastle at a Rate to pay the Coal Owners at a less Price than that charged by them according to their Regulation?

[147]

I certainly am not in the Possession of Information to enable me to give such an Opinion; I can only judge by comparing the Prices, some Time back, when Machinery had not obtained its present Perfection, with the present Prices.

Are you aware of any Difference in what they call manufacturing the Coal now and some Years ago?

I am aware that it is better manufactured now than some Years ago, by screening the Refuse from it.

Are you aware there is a much greater Waste of the Mine now than formerly?

I believe there is a much greater; but I believe not to the Extent of the Increase of Price.

Can you give a Statement of the actual Expences to which the Coal Owner is put in raising his Coal to the Surface?

I cannot.

Do you know any thing of the Capital employed by the Coal Owners?

I know the Capital employed to be very great; it must necessarily be so.

The only Ground on which you state that the Price to the Coal Owner is too great, is the Comparison with that Price previous to the Year 1793?

That is one Ground, and the other is, the Fact of the Regulation, when it did exist, sustaining a Price which was not sustained when it did not exist; and my Opinion as a Manufacturer and Trader is, that free and unlimited Competition can only bring any Commodity to its just and proper Level.

Does it not sometimes happen that free and open Competition reduces an Article below its fair Price?

I have no doubt of that. I have felt it severely in my own Trade.

Do you think it is an unfair Proceeding on the Part of Persons engaged in any Trade to get what may be considered a moderate Profit?

It must be fair for all Persons in Trade certainly to endeavour to get a moderate Profit; when I said that I had severely felt the Effect of Loss consequent on Competition, I should have added, that this Evil rights itself eventually, because Persons cannot go on sustaining Losses.

Then, in order to prevent a Loss, it would be necessary for a Person to withdraw himself from the Trade in which he is employed, and to convert his Capital to other Purposes?

Clearly so.

Are you aware of the Circumstances under which a Coal Owner stands in that respect?

I do not understand a Coal Owner to stand in any essentially different Situation from any other Manufacturer or Trader.

The Capital you say, known to be employed, is very large?

It must be very large; and I know it is so.

Do not you know that no one will insure that Capital?

From the Nature of such an Investment I should think it not susceptible of Insurance.

[148]

Do not you know that is not a marketable Security?

That I am not aware of. In my own Trade of a Tanner I have a great Capital similarly employed to that of a Coal Owner, for we cannot take away the Tan Pits and Liquors and Utensils.

Is your Capital a marketable Security?

So much of the Capital as is vested in Pits and Liquor, and so on, is not a marketable Security.

It is not subject to the Accident of Explosion like mining?

It is not.

The Coal Owner's Capital is?

Certainly.

Consequently a Coal Owner's Capital is a less marketable Security than a Tanner's?

I should think it was.

If it is not a marketable Security, and no Insurance upon the Capital, and the Capital is very large, do not you conceive that the Coal Owner runs a greater Risk in his Mines than any other Person of Property whatever?

I do not understand it to be entirely unmarketable; I should suppose the Interest in a Coal Mine might be transferred, therefore it is not altogether unmarketable; it is less marketable than Capital vested in many other Pursuits, certainly.

Are you acquainted with the Mode in which the Business of getting the Coal out of the Mine is carried on at Newcastle and Sunderland?

I am not particularly acquainted with that.

Are you aware of the Difficulty of withdrawing from the Trade, when once you are engaged in it, without very considerable Loss?

I should certainly think there would be a Difficulty in withdrawing from the Trade without considerable Loss, from the Nature of the Work.

You are of course aware that, if a Person is engaged in a Coal Mine, when once the Coal is got there must necessarily be an End to his Profits?

Certainly, an End to his Profits and also to the Capital.

Therefore it is absolutely necessary, that within a stated Period he should obtain the Returns he expected from his Capital?

Certainly.

Is that the Case with respect to your Tannery?

No, it is not.

Then in that respect a Coal Concern differs from the Tanning Trade, or any other?

In that respect there appears to be a Distinction between working Coal Mines and other Manufactures.

You have also stated that the Coal Owner is subject to certain Misfortunes, such as Blasts, drowning with Water, and other Matters below Ground, which would create a Destruction of his Property?

I am fully aware that he is liable to many destructive Accidents.

Is your Trade as a Tanner subject to any thing of that Description?

No.

Then in that respect the Coal Owner has some Right to demand a greater degree of Profit to insure him against such Accidents?

Most certainly.

[149]

Then, upon the whole, can you say that the present Price of Coals, as stated by you, is greater than fairly to cover those Risks, considering the Difference between Circumstances of this Trade and others, as that of the Tanner, or other common Trades?

I am not so particularly acquainted with the Business of Coal Mining as to say that less Profits can be done without. I only infer from the Circumstance of comparing the present Prices with the Prices that existed before the War, and the Prices of all other Commodities which are so much reduced.

Are you aware that, by means of the Duties, the Coal Owner is absolutely confined to the Market of England, and has no Opportunity to send his Article beyond Seas, or so confined by Duties as to cramp his Sale?

I am not aware of that. I have always supposed Coal might be exported, like any other Commodity, to any Foreign Port.

Are you not aware that there is a Duty of 17s. the Newcastle Chaldron on the over-sea Export of Newcastle Coal?

I am not aware of that.

Supposing that to be the Case, is it not the Result that this Country has the Monopoly of the Coal against the Coal Owner?

The Government, on such a View of the Case, maintaining a Duty on Exportation of 17s. a Chaldron, does itself exercise a Monopoly with respect to the Home Market in the Article of Coal.

Is not that Circumstance a Ground for the Coal Owner to seek to obtain a fair Price in the only Market that is open to him?

Certainly. I should say he has a Right to seek a fair Price in the Market that is open to him; however, I am not prepared to say, if such is the Object of your Lordships Question, that that justifies the Regulation.

To what Time did you make your Calculation?

I began in the Year 1793, and carried it up to 1828, taking the Month of May in every Year.

Have you any Calculation up to the Month of March in the present Year?

No; I have no Account of the present Year. I understand the Prices to be extremely moderate at present.

Notwithstanding the Arrangement?

Notwithstanding the Arrangement; but again I say, I refer the present Cheapness to the unusually large Quantity that has been vended for the last Two or Three Months.

Then in point of fact the Regulation has not so affected the Price of Coals as to create a short Market?

I think it has been the Policy of the Regulation, in Anticipation of this Inquiry, to vend a large Quantity.

Have you any Returns of what has come into the Port of London?

I have seen Returns shewing that the Quantity is greater than at any corresponding former Period.

Can you produce these Returns?

I believe they have been before produced by Mr. Pearsall.

You are aware that the Regulation existed in 1828?

Yes.

[150]

Are you aware that no Regulation existed from the Beginning of 1829 to the Month of September in that Year?

Yes, I am aware of that.

Have you compared the Quantity imported in 1828 with that imported in 1829?

I have not made that particular Comparison.

You do not know whether the additional Quantity brought to Market in 1829 had the Effect of depressing the Market to the degree you mention?

I do not know the precise Quantity.

With reference to your Statement as to the Stockton Coal;-you stated that you believe the Coal that would be imported from Stockton to be of a good Quality; but supposing that Coal to be of an inferior Quality, do you think that, the London Market being always so fully supplied with the inferior Quality, the Import of that inferior Quality would very much lower the Price of Coals in the London Market?

Unless the Quality was superior, and capable of competing with the best Sunderland and Newcastle Coals, I do not think it would have that Effect.

Can you state the Effect, if all the Collieries upon the Tyne and the Wear, and the new Collieries that may be found at Stockton, were all opened, what would be the general Effect of that upon the State of the North of England, and the consequent State of the Coal Market in London?

As to its Effect on the North of England, in the first instance, I think it would increase the Employment of the Pit-men and others engaged in Coal-mining, and all the Trades concerned in supplying Colliery Materials; that it would also benefit the Shipping, by giving them better Freights, and would produce lower Prices in London.

Do not you know that there are more Collieries open now upon the Tyne and Wear than would supply London if it took double the Quantity that it actually does?

I think it very probable that there are sufficient to produce double the Quantity now sent to London.

Are you not of Opinion, that unless a remunerating Price was obtained for those now opened, Half those Collieries would be broken up and ruined?

They could not possibly proceed without remunerating Prices.

If there is little more than a remunerating Price at present, and a larger Quantity, including those brought from Stockton, imported, is it possible there would then be a remunerating Price?

That is assuming that at present there is no more, or little more, than a remunerating Price.

If all the Collieries were opened on the Tyne and the Wear, and Coals brought from Stockton, might it not produce Ruin to those concerned in the Trade?

I think it would to those in the inferior Collieries.

Would not that produce a very great Distress in that Part of England?

The Parties engaged in working the Colleries must undoubtedly experience great Distress.

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Would not that have the Effect of throwing the Coal Trade into fewer Hands?

Supposing there were not as many Collieries in other Places to make up for the Number which might cease working, it would; but I am of Opinion that Collieries more favourably circumstanced to produce Coals cheaper would take the place of those which are under less favourable Circumstances.

What Means have you of judging how far you are founded in that Opinion?

From the general Information I am in the habit of receiving by Communications to me individually, and from what I heard adduced in Evidence before the Coal Committee.

Whereabouts do you imagine those new Collieries are to be found?

I understand there is a very extensive Field of Coal in the County of Durham, to come down to the River Tees, by means of the Clarence Railway.

What prevents their coming down now?

Without the Railway they cannot be brought without so much Expence as would render it impracticable to ship them in competition with Sunderland and Newcastle.

Have they not at present a Railway from some of those Collieries to the Tees?

I understand they have at Stockton; but that the Port of Stockton is not convenient for the Vessels.

Was there not an Act of Parliament Two Years ago, to enable them to make a Port within Two Miles of the Entrance of the Tees?

I am not aware of that.

Is there not an Act of Parliament enabling them to make the Clarence Railway?

Yes.

Then what is there to prevent their bringing Coals to the London Market?

I can only recur to the great Disinclination to embark in any Joint Stock Company from the numerous Failures in 1825.

Have the goodness to look at the Paper now shewn you; you will see by that an Excess of Importation to London in the Year 1829, Three Fourths of which was without any Regulation at all, over the Year 1828, which was under Regulation?

In the Year 1829 there will be found a greater Quantity beyond the Year 1828, an Excess of 45,000 Chaldrons.

The Lowness of Price of Coals during the Year 1829 would, of course, have the Effect of enabling the Coal Merchant to supply the Country higher up the River?

Certainly.

That would account for some Part of that Difference?

I think it would.

Then the whole Excess is 45,000 Chaldrons on an Importation of 1,500,000?

It is.

The Excess of so small a Quantity was sufficient, according to your Evidence, to reduce the Price of Coals 10s. a Chaldron?

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I think, from the Effect of the Absence of the Regulation, and adverting to the Fact which I have extracted from the Cocket Office, that the Coals actually were at the Shipping Port 10s. the Newcastle Chaldron lower that Year at the Period of Non-regulation than afterwards.

The Effect of that Importation, above that said to be a fair Supply of the Market, had the Effect of beating Coals down in Price?

I would not be understood to account for it on that Ground of the comparative Quantity sold in 1829 and 1828, but by the Absence of the Regulation, which reduced the Price of Coals at Newcastle and Sunderland.

You are not aware how far that beating down of the Price of Coals at Newcastle and Sunderland had the Effect of creating great Losses to the Owners there?

I am not.

With respect to the Ship Owners, you conceive that the doing away this Regulation would be very advantageous to the Ship Owner?

I think it would.

By enabling them to refuse to be at the Risk of the Freight?

I think it would have the Effect of obliging the Coal Owners to freight the Ships themselves, which they ought to do.

Therefore entirely transferring the Risk of the Freight from the Ship Owners to the Coal Owners?

Just so; which is the Justice of the Case.

Have you turned your Attention to the possibility of increasing the Supply of the Inland Coal?

Yes; I presented a Petition to the Corporation, proposing the making a Railway from Gloucestershire to London, for bringing Inland Coal. I have presented all Petitions upon this Subject which came to me, conceiving that the greater the Number of Sources of Supply that could be created, the greater would be the Public Benefit.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, One o'Clock.