Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence, 22 June 1830

Die Martis, 22 Junii 1830.

[637]

The Lord President in the Chair.

Mr. William Brown is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Merchant or Agent trading to China?

I am a Merchant and Agent trading to China and America.

Did you ever export to China any Goods on your own Account?

No; I have merely acted as Agent.

Have you exported Goods on your Account to other Parts of the World?

No, I cannot say that we have; we are merely Agents. If we have done so, it is to a very limited Extent indeed.

Can you state the Extent of your Shipments in successive Years to China?

Not from Recollection. I have here a Statement which I beg to deliver in.

The Witness delivers in the same, and it is read, and is as follows:

A STATEMENT of MERCHANDIZE shipped by W. & J. Brown & Co. of Liverpool to Canton, from November 1821 to July 1829.

N.B.-The above includes some Specie, the Amount of which cannot be given with Accuracy, but it does not, probably, in the whole exceed 10,000l. With this Exception, the Cargoes consisted of British Manufactured Goods, and the Amount stated is the Cost and Charges after deducting Debentures. In the Evidence given before the Committee of the House of Commons, the Isabella's Cargo in May 1828 was, by Mistake, omitted.

Liverpool, 18th June 1830. (Signed) Wm. Brown.

Do the Amounts there stated vary from the Declared Values of the Shipments in the Custom House Books?

I rather think they do.

[638]

To what Extent?

I am not able to state exactly; probably One Third less.

Where no Duty is paid on the Export of Goods, do those engaged in the Export of them, in declaring the Value of them, adhere as nearly as they can to the real Value?

We are very careless about it. When we have no Documents to fix it, we assume a Value, where there is no Export Duty.

Do you usually assùme a Value higher or lower than the real Value?

We frequently cannot tell what the Value is; we say so much per Package; sometimes higher, sometimes lower; but I believe, with respect to those Goods, the Value assumed in all Cases was lower than the real Value.

Do you know whether that was done for any Purpose?

The Gentleman, who was a Partner in the House owning this Property, was willing to keep the Business as much to himself as he could, and I do not believe he returns to us the real Value or the real Prices; but from the Prices he transmitted to us our Entries were made at the Custom House.

Then was your Duty confined to entering the Goods?

Entering them, and paying for them.

What Sum did you receive?

Two Shillings and Sixpence a Package for shipping, and One per Cent. for Commission.

How did you estimate your Commission, if you were not acquainted with the Value?

By Bills drawn upon us for the Purchase.

Then, though you do not know the Value of each Article, you know the Value of the total Shipment for each Year?

Yes; the Shipment would take place at Three or Four different Entries.

For what Ports do the Vessels clear out in which you shipped those Goods?

Generally for Batavia. I am not sure whether One did not clear out for Canton.

Was that for the Purpose of concealing the Nature of the Traffic?

It was.

Have you any Means of ascertaining whether those Adventures were profitable?

The first few Years they were profitable, and the last Four Years they were unprofitable; they are beginning again to be profitable.

On what Authority do you state that?

There are Three Branches of my Establishment in the United States; through One of them, in Philadelphia, the Arrangements for those Cargoes were made, and Credits lodged by John A. Brown and Company with William and James Brown and Company at Liverpool, for the Purchase of those Cargoes. We are desired to hold such a Sum at the Disposal of the Gentleman who comes to make the Purchases.

Have you any Means of ascertaining the Out-turn of that Adventure?

Only from Report. I do not see the Returns; but I know it from my Partner, who is acquainted with it. I state this from the Substance of my Partner's Correspondence.

[639]

Do you know what Circumstance at any Period diminished the Profit on those Exports?

About Four Years ago, when the Trade became less profitable than it had been previously (I think that arose from more Causes than one), about that Period, The East India Company were beginning to send Teas direct from Canton to British America; and I apprehend that prevented those imported by the Americans being sent in there; and about the same Period the European Powers threw more Difficulty in the Way of the direct Import of Teas from America to Europe, and that also abridged the Markets of Europe for the Consumption of Tea; and the Trade also, I apprehend, was injured by the Americans being too enterprising; still hoping the Business would improve, they continued to trade, probably on a fictitious Capital in part, arising from bonding for the Duties at long Periods.

The total Import of Tea into the British Provinces in North America by The East India Company not amounting to more in Value than £100,000 a Year, that Circumstance alone would not probably have produced much Effect on the American Trade?

No, I do not think that that Circumstance would alone, but in conjunction with the others it had this Effect.

As far as new Duties imposed on the Import of Teas to the Continent of Europe might affect the American Trade, they would likewise, if the Trade were open, affect the Trade of British Merchants to the Continent in Tea?

Of course they would.

Is that over-trading at an end, in your Opinion?

I think it is in some measure; a Number of those who were engaged in it at that Time have been unfortunate in their Affairs, and there is probably less Competition.

Have you any Knowledge of the Expence of navigating American and British Ships?

Not of British Ships; but I know something of American Ships.

Have you any Means of comparing the Two?

No, I have not.

From your Knowledge as a Merchant and Agent, are you enabled to form an Opinion whether, in the event of the China Trade being opened to British Subjects, they would be enabled to carry on that Trade with more Advantage than the Americans carry it on now?

I apprehend Mercantile Capital is much more plentiful in this Country than in America; the Interest of Money is less, and I think the Expence of Navigation is as little; I think they would be able to carry it on with equal Advantage, probably.

Are there not many American Merchants engaged in that Trade possessed of very large Capital?

I do not think there are many possessed of very large Capital.

Do you think those who have large Capital, Mr. Cushion and others, have traded to more Advantage than the Persons possessed of small Capital?

No doubt they have.

To what Circumstances do you attribute the greater Profits they may have obtained in the Trade?

I think they have been engaged in a different Trade from most of the other American Merchants; and they have not been obliged, I believe, to borrow Money on Respondentia, which is the usual Method of raising Money by those who have not sufficient Capital themselves to carry on the China Trade.

Will you explain what Respondentia is?

It is a Loan made by a monied House to a House wishing to borrow, for which they receive a certain Interest, say Eleven or Twelve per Cent. for the Voyage, the Parties lending the Money having the Goods hypothecated to them, and paying the Insurance; the Sum they receive is without reference to whether the Voyage is long or short.

[640]

In what Way does the Possession of a larger Capital afford peculiar Advantages in the carrying on of the China Trade?

It enables the Party possessing that Capital to choose his own Markets in Europe with more Convenience; it enables him probably to purchase large Quantities of Opium, and to let it remain for a Market in China, which those possessed of smaller Capitals, I apprehend, have not been much in the habit of; they have been more in the Trade from the United States direct to England, and from thence to China, and then back.

Do you apprehend the larger the Capital the greater the Advantage?

Provided it can be used.

Should you think that The East India Company, having so very great a Capital engaged in that Trade, could carry it on with more Advantage than Private Merchants?

I do not think that any Company can carry on Trade with so much Advantage as a Private Merchant, provided that Individual has sufficient Capital for his Operations.

Still less could you expect that degree of Care which is shewn by a private Individual in the Management of his Concerns, from Persons managing the great Capital of a Company, who, whatever may be the Out-turn of that Adventure, would neither receive more nor less in the Shape of Interest and Revenue?

That is precisely the View I take of it.

Are you aware whether the Woollens shipped on American Bottoms for China have been in Quality superior or inferior to those shipped by the Company?

I have Reason to believe they are quite as good as those shipped by the Company, and bought with as much Care.

Are they of the same sorts?

Pretty much the same.

Can you state whether 'they are obtained by the Private Merchants at a lower Cost than that at which the Company obtain their Goods?

I think they are full as low as those bought by the Company, inasmuch as the Private Traders Payments are more convenient to the Seller, and that they are not subject to the Delay of Inspection which Goods purchased by The East India Company are.

Are the Woollens shipped all of one Quality, or nearly so?

No; they vary very much in Quality.

Do you know on which Quality the highest Profit is obtained, whether the highest or the lowest?

No, I do not.

Have any new Articles been exported of late Years?

I think not to any great Extent. I understand they are trying Cotton Yarns in China, but I am not aware of any thing to any Extent having been sent of late but what the Chinese have been in the habit of receiving.

You have not shipped any new Articles?

Not that I am aware of.

For what length of Time have you been employed in the Shipment of British Goods to China?

Since 1821.

Have you been engaged in sending to British India?

Occasionally.

In what Year was your first Shipment to China?

In 1821.

What was the Amount?

Sixty-six thousand seven hundred and fifty-one Pounds; in February 1822, I perceive there is another Cargo; in 1823, Two Cargoes; in 1824, One Cargo; and 1825, Three Cargoes.

The Shipments gradually increased to 1825?

Yes.

What was the whole Amount of Shipment in 1825?

About £150,000.

[641]

Did the Shipments fall off subsequently?

In 1826 there was but One Cargo sent, amounting to £47,000; in 1827 there were Two Cargoes, amounting to about £120,000; in 1828, One Cargo, amounting to £60,000; and in 1829, Two Cargoes, amounting to about £100,000.

Have you any Orders for Shipment in the present Year?

We have.

To what Extent, up to the present Time?

About £110,000.

So that the Shipments are gradually increasing again since 1828?

Yes.

Can you state with more Precision your Reasons for believing that the last Shipment had been profitable, besides the increased Orders you have lately received?

I think it is evident that they are more profitable, from my House having lodged Credit for those new Operations; and they have also stated to me that they have been more profitable, and that they feel more Confidence in going on with the Trade.

In what Manner do your Principals purchase Goods for the China Market?

One of the Partners of the House has always attended and bought the Goods in England, and for the Payment of which he passes Bills upon us.

Do you know under what Mark they are disposed of in China?

For some Time past, probably from the first, he has been in the habit of putting his Name upon them, in order to give them Credit and Currency with the Chinese.

Is there any Imitation of the Company's Mark?

Not at all. I think he puts Samuel T. Jones upon them.

Have you Information you can depend upon, that that Mark is considered sufficient, without any Imitation of the Company's Mark in addition?

From every Information I have, I believe that Mark obtains them as much Credit with the Chinese as the Company's Mark. His Object was to establish the Reputation of the House, by packing none but fair Goods under that Mark.

Do you know in what Manner The East India Company's Goods are purchased for the China Market?

I have understood they are all subject to Inspection, which creates some Delay in the Payment, which does not arise with the Private Trade, and which enables the Private Trade to make themselves as desirable Customers to the Sellers of the Goods as the Company.

Have you had any Means of comparing the Manner in which Mr. Jones purchases his Goods with that in which The East India Company purchase their Goods?

The principal Information I have upon that Subject is from Mr. Jones himself, and One or Two of the Manufacturers of whom he has bought. He has an Opportunity of seeing the Manner in which the Goods are got up for the Company; and I have understood that his Goods are fully as well or better bought.

When you speak of the general Result of the Shipments having been unprofitable, can you state at what Period of the Voyage they became unprofitable?

The Goods out have generally sold well, and for fair Profits; but the Return Cargoes have been unprofitable.

If the Trade had been open, and those Speculations had been conducted by British Merchants, who might have brought back a Return Cargo to England, do you conceive that such Speculations would have been more profitable?

[642]

I think they would not have been more profitable than the Result of the American Speculations. I think they must have sustained a Loss by the Import of Teas. I cannot speak of the Competition they would have to meet with; but if a British Merchant has to go to China and bring Teas to Europe, at present he would probably sustain a Loss.

Supposing they were to go to China and bring a Return Cargo to England, do you think the Return Voyages would be more or less profitable?

It depends on the Number of the Return Cargoes. If there were but few Cargoes brought, it would be profitable; if there was over-trading, that would be, as it has been in other Instances of many new Trades, unprofitable; Buenos Ayres, for instance - the first of the Trade was most ruinous, though it has now become a healthy Trade.

Does that Observation apply to Trade generally?

Yes. It would be profitable so long as over-trading did not take place.

Do you know whether the Dutch supply much of the Tea that is now consumed in Europe?

I should think they do, a good deal.

Do not you think that the Want of a Return Cargo, which could be disposed of in the English Market, has been one of the great Causes of limiting the Speculations of the Americans in China?

I am not altogether certain of that. I think that the Returns being so unprofitable has imposed one Barrier to the Extension of the Trade; but I am not aware that the Americans were deterred altogether from going there.

Has not the Circumstance of the best Market in Europe for China Produce being shut against them contributed very much to that?

No doubt.

Has not the Loss of the Trade in Tea to Canada had an Effect upon their Trade?

Undoubtedly, to a certain Extent, it has.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. Richard Milne is called in, and examined as follows:

You have carried on Trade with China, have you not?

I have.

Did you reside in this Country while you were carrying on this Trade?

No. I was born in Manchester, but a long Time ago I went to the United States of America to vend British Goods. I resided in Philadelphia. I commenced trading to India and China about the Year 1799, and continued shipping in various Vessels 'till the Year 1811. At the Period to which I allude the Vessels went on Freight; there would be Ten to Twenty Shippers in One Vessel, and a great Number of Vessels.

What Freight did you pay; did it vary much during that Period?

The Period alluded to was that of the War in Europe. Freights were high, I may say Forty-five Dollars per Ton Measurement of Forty Cubic Feet; or, more correctly, speaking of Tea, the Americans allowed Ten Quarter Chests.

Notwithstanding that high Freight, was the Trade profitable?

It was, at the Period to which I allude.

Did it increase gradually from the Year 1799 to the Year 1811?

There was an Increase. The Market was occasionally overdone; but at that Period there were no Manufactures in America, and we imported considerable Quantities of Goods from Calcutta as well as from China; there was a considerable Trade to India and China out of Philadelphia.

Was that Part of the Trade which proceeded from India profitable?

It was. I was concerned in both, and I think I may say that I never lost Money during that Period.

[643]

Which was the most profitable of the Two, the Indian or the China Trade?

Sometimes one, sometimes the other; but I think the China Trade was at that Period the more certain.

To whom did you commit the Care of your Exports to China at Canton?

The Vessels by which I shipped, and I believe all the Vessels at that Period, were uniformly accompanied by Supercargoes; the Establishments in China had not then taken place.

Did the Supercargo on board of the Ship take charge of the Goods belonging to all the different Merchants who shipped on board of it?

They did; there were pretty generally Two Supercargoes on board those Vessels, Nine Times in Ten, for the Protection of the Property in the Case of Death.

You were at no Loss for an Agent; you were obliged to commit your Goods to the Supercargo?

Yes.

How much did you pay him?

Three per Cent.

How was that Sum calculated?

I believe he opened an Account Current with us; sometimes he deducted his Three per Cent. from the Amount shipped, but at other Times from the Amount of the Goods purchased; it is nearly the same thing; deducting it from the Amount shipped was a little in his Favour, but nearly the same thing in Amount.

Of what did that Shipment consist?

Almost always Spanish Dollars; occasionally a little Ginseng, a Root gathered in America, which the Chinese like to take as Medicine; but I may say almost always Spanish Dollars.

Did the Shipments of other Adventurers in the same Vessel consist likewise of Spanish Dollars?

Nine Times in Ten. The Vessels from Philadelphia, which was at that Time the most extensive Port for the Trade with China from the United States, the Freight Ships, were probably, for their Tonnage, the richest Ships which visited China, having a large Number of Shippers.

What was the Amount of their Tonnage?

From 350 to 450, and perhaps, accidentally, as large as 500 Tons, carrying 300,000 Dollars.

Nothing but Dollars?

Very little besides.

Who carried on the Trade in Merchandize?

The Trade with China in Merchandize from the United States of America is a much later Trade. Some Persons resident in Boston pretty extensively; some resident in Philadelphia, whom I knew, pretty extensively; but the greatest Part of the Trade from the United States of America has been in Spanish Dollars.

When did the Trade in the Export of Merchandize from America spring up?

There has been some Export of American Manufactures, I think not very large, from England, perhaps in the Year 1820, or sooner; I cannot be positive. It commenced small, and has kept increasing.

Have the Americans exported to Canton any Quantity of the Manufactures of Continental Europe?

I should not think much. At New York they can make up a Cargo of Manufactures of Europe generally perhaps as soon as in any Part of the World, the Variety is so great.

Has that been done?

[644]

I do not think it has. So far as comes within my Knowledge, the Exports of Manufactured Goods from the United States to China have been the greater Part British, I think.

Have the Americans exported latterly any great Quantity of Opium to China?

I cannot speak to that. I was never engaged in that Trade.

What did you import from China besides Tea?

Silks, Nankeens and a little Cassia; occasionally, perhaps, some other trifling Things, not worth enumerating.

Were the Silks as profitable as the Teas?

Sometimes the Teas left a good Profit; occasionally the Silks would do better. The Silks were safe, if we held them.

Were the Nankeens profitable?

Occasionally; not very, lately; of dull Sale.

Your Trade in Nankeens has almost entirely fallen off, has it not?

Yes. The great Variety of Pantaloon Stuffs made in England and other Countries has destroyed it.

Does the Trade in Silks continue as profitable as it was?

It varies, I think.

Generally speaking, was the safest Return in Tea?

At the Period to which I allude the Return in Tea was very safe, but of late Years very ruinous.

To what Years do you refer, when you say of late Years?

I think Four or Five; for the last Five Years, to speak correctly; I do not pledge myself to One Year.

Do you know the Reason of that?

The American People are extremely industrious, and have great Enterprize. The great Facility given by Government, of the Credit for a Year on the Teas, and equally so the Facility with which Money is borrowed on Respondentia, prevails to a considerable Extent.

Will you state what the Law is with respect to the Payment of Duties in America on Imports from China?

As regards Tea, when the Ship arrives we make an Entry to land them from the Vessel, and put them into Bond. The Government, if it is a Person of Respectability, will allow them to be taken into a Room in the Merchant's own Warehouse. The Teas are landed, and taken home to this Room; and then they affix Two Locks on the Door, the Government keeping one Key and the Merchant the other; those Teas may remain any Period not exceeding One Year; and whenever the Merchant wishes to make use of them, he goes and makes another Entry, getting some Merchant to give a Bond with him, and he has another Year's Credit for the Duties. The Teas are then delivered to the Merchant for Sale.

Supposing you landed Teas and gave your first Bond, and at the End of Twelve Months took out the Teas, should you then give another Bond for the Payment of Duty at the Expiration of Twelve Months from that Time?

Yes, precisely so. The first is my own simple Bond; the Government do not consider themselves as putting me into Possession of the Property; they take my simple Bond for entering in Store; but the second Bond is countersigned by a Merchant, supposed to be of some Solidity.

Then you might possibly have Credit for Two Years, minus a single Day?

Yes; but I can make no Use of the Teas for the first Eleven Months. Until I make my second Entry, I do not gain any thing by my Teas being in Bond.

But the Payment of Duty might be deferred for Two Years?

Yes, precisely so.

[645]

Could you sell your Goods before the Expiration of the first Year?

Yes. Though the Goods are on my Premises, the Government have one Key and I have another; by making the second Entry, I can get Possession of the Property at any Time; but in point of fact I have only One Year's Credit, though the Payment is deferred for another Year.

You have One Year's Credit after you have sold the Goods?

Yes. It might so happen that I had not much Credit in the Duty on those Teas if the Market was depressed; I might not gain much Time; but, generally speaking, all Merchants within the Year avail themselves of a favourable Period, and sell off the whole of their Teas; and it is understood in America, that the first Shipment enables a Person to send out Two others, when sold off, together with the Benefit of the Credit he has derived, if so disposed.

When you take your Goods out of Bond at the End of Eleven Months, and sell them, the Price you receive covers the Duty you have afterwards to pay?

It ought to do.

How are you paid; in ready Money or by Bill?

The Trade of America generally, in the large Seaports, is for Promissory Notes. We give Six Months Credit; in general from Four to Six, according to our Agreement; those Notes we can convert into Money on some Terms to reship to China again.

At what Rate could you convert that Bill into Money; can you discount a Bill at Six Months?

Six Months, or Nine Months, sometimes. The Bankers do not discount Paper longer than Four Months; but Bills can be discounted at Four, Six and Eight Months, at Six per Cent. per Annum.

Having by the Sale of those Goods realized some Profit on what you had originally invested in the Purchase of the Exports sold, and having likewise received an additional Price which may be considered as Money lent you by the Government, you are enabled to purchase another Cargo, and so to continue the Adventure?

Yes.

Has not the American Trade with China been in a great measure supported in that Manner?

Not at the Period to which I allude; they were then bonâ fide Capitalists. There went in One of those Freight Ships, which were frequently the richest Ships visiting China, for their Tonnage, Consignments by Ten or Twenty Shippers. I would ship £2,000 or so upon One of those Vessels, and go on as many Vessels as I could; being my own Underwriter, which increased the Profit, I would ship £1,000 or £5,000, according to my Ability.

Will you state what were your actual Losses by underwriting?

I never lost any thing; they were good Vessels. I think I shipped once to Calcutta, in the Year 1817 or 1818, in a Vessel which had something damaged; but I gained; I did not lose then.

What was the Rate of Insurance to China at that Time?

During the late War it was Seven or Eight per Cent. out and home.

Were you peculiarly fortunate, or was the Loss small in general?

They were good Ships, and they took care whom they selected for Captains; the Captains were Persons of good Habits, and intelligent.

Was there then very little Competition among the Insurers?

There are a great many Insurance Offices.

Is not Insurance in general higher in America than in this Country?

I do not think it is now; it may be a Fraction; in America there is no Policy Duty; I go to an Office and insure £1,000 Sterling, and all I have to pay is One Dollar for a printed Policy.

[646]

What is it in this Country?

I don't recollect, or not positively.

During the Time you were engaged in the Trade, did it appear to you that the Quality of the Tea you imported was deteriorated?

The Tea called Young Hyson, which was in great Demand in America, deteriorated or fell off very much in Quality.

Was the Quantity imported much greater than it had been?

The Import certainly increased. I think Twenty Years ago they told us that Young Hyson Tea, that which was really Young Hyson, the Buds of the first Gathering of Hyson, I believe, could not exceed 4,000 Chests; but the Chinese finding it in great Request, and that the Americans would give a fair Price for it, they increasedit to 20,000.

Have they furnished an inferior Tea?

Yes; the Quality fell off very much.

Did the Quality of Black Tea deteriorate much?

I never imported much Black Tea.

Did old Teas of a former Year obtain a ready Sale in America?

No; they declined in Value, to speak correctly, Five per Cent. unless the new Teas were very inferior in their Quality, and the old ones have been superior; then the Difference might not be so great; but if the new Teas were of good Quality, it would be difficult to sell the old Teas.

Even at a Loss of Five per Cent?

Yes, I think so; I believe I am speaking within Bounds, but I cannot pledge myself precisely.

Are you yourself a Judge of the Quality of Teas?

I know a little.

Should you say that the old Teas were very inferior to the new, supposing them to be originally of the same Quality?

Since I was examined in another Place I have been into different Shops in London to inform myself. I examined their Teas, and talked to them. Some of them I knew. Their Ideas appeared to me to be very much the same as ours in America, and that the Depreciation in the Quality of Teas would exceed Five per Cent. per Annum.

In the Second Year, would it fall off more than Five per Cent?

I do not mean to speak to that. I should think that the lowerpriced Teas would fall off from Five to Seven and a Half per Cent. in the first Year, but that I may be within the Mark, I would say Five.

Would the higher-priced Teas fall off in the same Proportion?

I think not.

What induced you to leave off the Trade?

It was not profitable, and I was drawing my Affairs into a small Compass.

What Part ceased to be profitable; was it the Import of Teas, of Silks, or of Nankeens?

Of Teas chiefly; the Loss was serious on Teas latterly.

Was there any Profit on the common Articles you mention; Drugs, and so on?

We used to import Cassia to fill up the Tonnage in many of those Ships. Two Tons and One Eighth were allotted for every Thousand Dollars in Value; and if the Teas and Silks did not make up the Tonnage, they put in other Articles of smaller Value.

To what Year do you refer, when you say the Trade became unprofitable to you?

[647]

The last Time I shipped was in 1820. I did not lose Money, but I did not make any. A Year or two after that it was better; but I believe since 1824 there has not been much Profit on Teas. Some Persons with superior Judgment and Management may do better, but taking it as a whole, I think the Losses have been great.

Have you any Information by which you can judge whether the Trade is now reviving?

My Letters from America, from Persons engaged in vending English Goods in particular, within the last Two Months, say, we cannot complain of Trade. I am told, indeed I see from the Prices Current, that Teas are very low; but I believe the Americans succeeded better this Year in vending English Goods in China; in some degree, perhaps, owing to the Misunderstanding with the Company.

Were you in America in 1825?

Yes.

Did you at all watch the Tea Market at that Time?

I do not recollect particularly watching it; I know it was very bad.

Was not that a Year in which there were larger Importations than any other Year?

That was during the Years 1824, 1825 and 1826, and Persons who were then speculative Traders, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Smith, and others, have failed. I believe the vending of English Goods in China by a Person who had some Knowledge of the Caprice and Taste of the People has been beneficial.

Do you mean English Goods taken from America, or English Goods carried by Americans from hence?

English Goods carried by Americans from hence to China.

Can you state what Proportion of Tea imported remains in Bond for the whole Eleven Months, and what Proportion is taken out immediately?

I think in the course of Thirty or Forty Days after the Import nearly the whole is taken out. The greatest Part of the China Traders make an Entry for the Benefit of long Credit into their own Warehouses or Government Stores, and so soon as that landing is completed they generally make a final Entry, get the Teas into their own Possession, and make a public Sale of them, the same as at the India House; they sell off an entire Cargo on the Credit of Six Months; an Auctioneer or Person who vends those Goods is often a Person of Capital; he will agree to sell the Goods, to guarantee the Debts, and to Cash the Bills, at a certain Per-centage.

Is it allowed to sell Goods in a Bonded Warehouse, without paying up the Duty?

No, it is not; they make an Entry, and give a Bond with Security, and then they are delivered; they do not allow them to be sold in Bond; if there be an Hundred Chests, a Merchant can enter Five or Ten, as he wants them; but it was the Custom with many Traders to make a final Entry, and sell the whole off.

What is the Amount of Duty payable in America on Tea?

It is a specific Duty, varying according to different Qualities; on the common Bohea it is Twelve Cents per Pound; on Congo and Souchong, and on all Black Teas, it is Twenty-five; on Hyson Skin Tea it is Twenty-eight; on Young Hyson and Hyson it is Forty, and on the fine Teas, Imperial and Gunpowder, I believe Fifty Cents per Pound.

What is the Proportion of the Duty paid in America to the Duty paid in England?

It appears that the Duty paid in America on all the Teas is about equal to the first Cost in China; I believe I may say it is a Hundred per Cent; if the Tea in China costs 1s. the Duty is 1s. in America; I have before stated it at 75 to 100, but I believe it is 100.

[648]

What is the Amount of Duty when paid on the Sale Price in America?

If Hyson Skin Tea sells for Sixty-three Cents, the Duty, which is Twenty-eight, is equal to Forty-five per Cent. On the finer Teas the Duty may be Thirty-three or Thirty-five per Cent. on the Sale Price. I speak without Calculation, but I believe I am nearly correct.

What is the Difference between the Cost Price in China and the Sale Price in America of the different sorts of Tea?

It has been very bad indeed of late; the Loss on many of those Teas has been Twenty-five per Cent. and Thirty per Cent. I am given to understand now, that the Import of Tea into America this Season will occasion Loss; but I only know what others have told me upon that Subject.

Should you say that Teas bought at New York and Boston in the course of the last Autumn were sold at a remunerating Price to the Importer?

I should think not; Persons in Boston and others have made a Profit perhaps on the Outward Voyage on English Goods from this Country.

To what Cause do you attribute this Loss thus sustained?

The Market has been overstocked with Tea; the Teas on the Continent of Europe have been exceedingly low. The Trade to Canada, as it was termed, has been cut off completely. Coffee is very low in Price, and People in America breakfast on Coffee.

Did the Persons whom you employed to transact your Concerns at Canton experience any Difficulty in managing them there?

My Opinion is, that they did not experience any Difficulty whatever; I never heard of any.

Neither from the Regulations of the Government, nor the Dispositions of the People?

I never heard of any Difficulty whatever; I believe that if they conduct themselves with Propriety they never experience much Difficulty.

Do you conceive the Absence of Difficulty was at all increased by the Presence of The East India Company's Establishment there?

No, I do not think it was; I believe that those Freight Ships from Philadelphia were as well received there as any Ships visiting that Port; they were the richest Ships, decidedly, for their Tonnage.

Did your Agent at Canton ever represent that there was any Difficulty in obtaining an increased Quantity of Teas, if there was a Demand for it?

The Young Hyson Tea left us the best Profit. Our Instructions were to bring all the good Young Hyson Tea they could procure; but their Answer was always, that it was not to be had. Of the other Qualities of Tea, sometimes the Price was a little higher, but there was no Deficiency in Quantity.

Is the Young Hyson the best?

No; but it is a favourite Tea with the Americans; it represents the Hyson, and is at a moderate Price.

The Quality of Young Hyson fell off you say in one Year; did it improve in subsequent Years?

I do not think it did.

To what Year do you refer when you say it fell off?

I think the last Five or Six Years; the Prices Current speak to that; the Prices being so low.

It has not recovered in Quality?

It had not while I was in America, or not generally.

Was there any Difficulty in levying the Duty on Tea, on the Principle of rateable Duty?

No, I think not. There were some of the Parties did not pay; but there was no Difficulty as to the Adjustment of the Duty, that I am aware of. The Boxes are marked outside with the different Qualities of Tea. The Boxes are nearly all of the same Size; but a Box of fine Tea weighs much heavier than a coarse one.

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Then there could not be a very extensive Fraud?

There could not be. A Box of fine Tea is Thirty or Forty per Cent. heavier than one of coarse Tea.

Have you seen the Statement delivered in to this Committee, and printed, of the comparative Prices of Tea at various Places on the Continent and in America, and the Prices the same Teas would fetch at The East India Company's Sales without Duty?

I have never seen that, not having been able to procure it.

What other Modes of Remittance from China to America are there besides Tea?

Silks and Nankeens.

Is there any Mode of Remittance by Bills?

They often sell Bills drawn on London. If the Exchange be favourable, they carry out Credits.

Would the Loss by remitting by Bills be greater or less than by remitting by Tea?

I am not acquainted with the Exchange; I suppose one will govern the other very much.

You mentioned that some Shipments from America to China had been attended with Advantage, in which the Exporter had consulted the Caprices and Tastes of the People?

There are Persons who are good Judges of Fancy Silks; and the Chinese can imitate any thing while they remain there. One of those rich Ships will remain Three Months. The Supercargo will take out Patterns of English or French Goods, and will have something made as near them as possible. The Person who orders those Goods will keep the Patterns to himself, and if they are rich Fancy Goods, he is perhaps greatly benefited by them.

Do you not think that the Exertions and Inquiries of individual Merchants would be much more conducive to Improvement in such a Trade as that than the Dealings of a great Company?

I have no doubt whatever but that would be the Case. But it is my decided Opinion, that if you take an experienced Man out of a large Wholesale Warehouse in London or Manchester, accustomed to the Sale of Goods, and to study the Caprice and Taste of Buyers, such an Individual placed in China could give Instructions to this Country, by which they could imitate a Variety of costly Goods, at a low Price, to please the Chinese. They could imitate a Variety of Things which the People wanted, and could extend the Sales in a Two or Threefold Ratio in a reasonable Period.

You conceive that the Inquiries of Individuals are almost essential to the Improvement of such a Trade as that?

I think if I took an experienced Man out of a large extensive Warehouse in London or Manchester, accustomed to the Sale of Goods, and to study the Taste and Caprice of the Buyers, he would be enabled to communicate highly valuable Information to the Manufacturers in England; and such Persons could extend the Trade Two or Threefold in a few Years.

You think that if the Export Trade of The East India Company to China has not lately increased, it may be in part owing to the Absence of that Species of Exertion?

I should think it is in part.

Have not the Americans had the Means of sending out such a Man as you have described for many Years past?

Yes.

Have they done so?

I know some of them have not; but I think such a Person as I have described would be very valuable if he was in China.

Has such a Person ever been sent out there?

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There perhaps have been Persons sent there who have done it in part, but not such as are to be had in the great Warehouses in Cheapside or Manchester.

In the event of opening the Trade with China, do you apprehend that the English Merchants would have the Means of extending that Trade beyond those which have been possessed by the Americans?

I think an English Manufacturer or Merchant would understand the Shipment of Goods better, as regards a free Trade; he would be on the same Footing as regards the Trade in Tea. The Americans have of course the same Advantage as the English; but it is very difficult to enter into competition with a large manufacturing House in this Country.

Do you not think that a manufacturing People would unavoidably enjoy greater Advantages of the kind to which you have been just alluding than a Nation which was not manufacturing?

Certainly; that is what I mean to say.

Have not the Americans possessed Means of exporting Manufactures from this Country, and of adapting the Form and the Colour and Fashion of those Manufactures to the Taste which they understood to exist in China?

They certainly have had Persons here; but the very limited Extent to which the Trade has been carried to so immense a Population must shew that it is in its Infancy, in my Opinion.

Do you think there has been a Want of Capital in the Trade?

No, I do not think that there is a Want of Capital; but the Trade is too limited for so large a Market; that is my Opinion.

Do you know whether the Americans have attempted to trade with any Part of China except Canton?

Not to my Knowledge.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, One o'Clock.