Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence, 18 June 1830

Die Veneris, 18 Junii 1830.

The Lord President in the Chair.

[617]

Hollingworth Magniac Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

You were an Agent at Canton, were you not?

I was.

For how many Years?

I first went out in 1809; I returned Home finally in January 1827; I was at Home at Two Intervals during that Period; I was not resident there the whole of the Time.

Did you transact Business on your own Account, as well as for your Constituents?

Occasionally.

To any Extent?

To a considerable Extent in Opium, and also in Goods to England latterly.

Who were your principal Employers; Persons engaged in the Country Trade entirely?

Almost entirely.

Have you at any Time done any Business for Persons residing in England?

Very trifling.

Of what Articles did their Exports consist?

Formerly there was a little Business going on in Prussian Blue, and a few Manufactures of that kind from England; but of late Years that has been entirely done away by the Chinese having acquired the Art of making it themselves; it was to a small Extent.

Were you at any Time engaged in selling Woollens or Cottons for English Merchants?

Never Woollens, that I recollect; and very little Cottons during my Time; but since I have been away, I believe the House has had considerable Consignments in Cottons and Cotton Yarns, but to what Extent I am unable to say.

During the whole of that Period it would have been possible, would it not, to have sent the Manufactures of England to Sincapore, and thence tranship them to China?

I conceive it would.

What would have been the Charge of transhipping those Goods outwards at Sincapore?

I am not aware what Commission the Agent would charge there, but I believe so much a Package; I should not think it can amount to more than a Half per Cent; not One per Cent.

With that additional Charge, English Manufactures could then, and can now, be sent to China?

I conceive so.

That would be the Amount of Charge additional to that which would be incurred if they were sent directly to China?

Yes; English Manufactures could then and can now be sent direct to China in the Company's Ships, with the Exception of Woollens.

[618]

To what Extent may they be sent by the Company's Ships?

To a considerable Extent; the Ships go out almost empty direct to China.

Do the Merchants of Great Britain consign any Quantity of Goods direct to China by those Ships?

Yes; there is no Impediment, I believe.

If those Goods are sent in the Company's Ships, do the Company's Factors sell them at Canton, or do the Owners sell them by means of their own Agents?

The Company's Agents are not permitted to transact any Business, excepting for the Company.

The Price of Woollens and of Cottons having fallen about Fifty per Cent. in the Course of the last Ten Years, and such Facilities as you have mentioned existing, of sending British Manufactures to Canton by the Company's Ships, and by the Channel of Sincapore, to what Circumstances do you attribute the Non-existence of any considerable Export of those Manufactures?

I have stated the Facilities to exist, because I am not aware of any Impediment, but I have never tried them myself. The Impediment consists in the Difficulty of making Returns direct to England.

The British Merchant has at present, has he not, the Means of exporting from China, by way of Sincapore, all Chinese Produce and Manufactures to England, with the Exception of Tea?

Yes, I believe he has.

With the small additional Charge upon Transhipment you have mentioned at Sincapore?

Yes.

It is therefore the Want of the Remittance in Tea which, in your Opinion, creates the great Difficulty in the Returns?

The Want of some Returns. Tea would be a very eligible one, no doubt.

Are there not at present all other kinds of Remittance, except that by Tea?

Yes, I believe there are. There are Means of making Returns in the Company's Ships to a certain Extent in the Commanders and Officers Privilege.

Will you have the goodness to explain the Course of Trade which you carried on when you resided at Canton?

The Trade we carried on, independently of acting as Agents, was principally in Opium, almost entirely indeed; and the simple Proceeding in that was, to remit Funds from China to India for the Purchase of the Opium, which was then transmitted to the House in China, and the Funds returned again to India for a Repetition of the Proceeding the ensuing Season.

What was the Course of the Trade which passed through your Hands as Agents?

Consignments from India, and a Return of the Funds there or to England, if possible, as we were instructed.

Did you, to a considerable Extent, return those Funds to England?

As far as we were able ourselves, we did so.

In what Articles did you return those Funds to England?

We generally sent Home such Goods as we thought would answer our Purpose in England, and drew against them.

What were those Goods?

Raw Silk, Silk Piece Goods, Nankeens, and also Bullion and Dollars occasionally. The Remittances in Bullion and Dollars have occurred of late Years, since the Exchange has been so low.

Was the Profit upon those Articles considerable generally?

No, certainly not.

[619]

Those Returns only effected the Object of remitting your Funds to England?

Exactly; and would only be done when the Exchange was very low in China - such as 4s. to 4s. 2d.

Where did you purchase the Opium which you exported to China?

At the Company's Sales, through our Agents, either at Bombay or Bengal.

Did you ever purchase any at the Portuguese Settlement?

Never, while the Concern was under my Management.

Have you ever exported Turkey Opium?

No; but we have purchased it very often in China.

To any considerable Extent?

Sometimes to a considerable Extent.

Is the Sale of Turkey Opium so considerable in China as to interfere with the Price of the Opium from Bengal?

It no doubt interferes so far as it increases the Quantity imported, and is likely to do so more, perhaps, as I believe its Consumption has greatly increased.

Is it as well adapted to the Taste of the Chinese as that from India?

No, it is not.

For what Purpose is that Opium generally used?

For smoking, I believe; for Medical Purposes; that it is much stronger and better; but it is not so pleasant for smoking, being stronger; and I believe the Chinese mix it with the other Kinds.

Do you know whether the Trade in Turkey Opium is increasing?

It has increased.

As rapidly as the Trade in Opium from India?

I believe about as rapidly, supposing my Information to be correct.

What is the present Price of a Chest of Bengal Opium?

The latest Price Current I have received was dated in December last; 830 Dollars per Chest for Patna Opium was there quoted.

What was the Price of Malwa Opium at the same Time?

At that Time the Malwa was 780 Dollars, but in January it was 730, a Fall of Fifty Dollars having taken place on the Malwa, but not on the Patna.

What was the Price of Turkey Opium at that Time?

700 Dollars.

Is not the Price of the Malwa Opium usually higher than that of the Bengal Opium?

It was during the early Importations very much below the Patna and Benares, which it gradually attained, or nearly so; but by the last Accounts it appears to be 100 Dollars under those Kinds.

Is the Opium of Patna used for the same Purposes as the Opium of Malwa?

It is all used for the same Purposes.

What has been, within your Recollection, the Price of Patna Opium?

Extremely various. I have known it as low as 700 Dollars, and I have known it as high as 2,000 Dollars.

Have you known so great a Variation in the Price of Malwa Opium?

Not so great. The Malwa Opium has been introducing itself gradually for a Series of Years, and has been working upwards with reference to the Patna, returning a comparative Value.

The Malwa has more Strength, has it not?

[620]

The Chinese use it entirely for smoking; and in reducing it to a fit State for that Purpose, the Patna produces usually Fifty or Fifty-one per Cent. of smokable Extract. The Malwa, on the contrary, should yield from Seventy to Seventy-four or Seventy-five. Seventy-two may be taken as the Average, when of good Quality.

Is the smokable Extract produced by the Patna Opium superior to that produced by the Malwa Opium?

I believe it is considered more delicate, and it would appear to be so, as the Price has almost always exceeded that of the other Kinds.

The Price has never been in the Proportion which the smokable Extract of one Opium bore to the smokable Extract of the other?

In the earlier Introduction of the Malwa, the Disproportion was very great in that Respect; but the Malwa Opium was then working up-hill into general Use; now it has become more nearly equal in that Respect.

It appears by the Account of the Value and Quantities of Cargoes imported into Canton and Macao on the Tonnage employed in the Country Trade, Page 44, that in the Year 1817-18, 2,435 Chests of Opium were imported into China; in the Year 1820-21, 3,377; in the Year 1823-24, 5,930; in the Year 1825-26, 11,050; and in the Year 1827-28, 9,475 Chests; are you enabled to state what the Imports into China were in the Years 1828-29 and 1829-30, specifying the Quantity of Turkey and Indian Opium?

I am afraid that I cannot give the Imports separately, but the total Amount of Indian Opium consumed in China in the Year 1828-9 was 13,132 Chests, shewing an Increase over the previous Year of 3,657 Chests, and yielding in Dollars 12,533,115. The Quantity of Turkey Opium consumed in that Year was 1,600 Peculs. The Chests of Indian Opium are assumed to contain each a Pecul; they contain much more in fact when it first arrives in China, but a considerable Reduction in Weight occurs in the keeping. A Pecul consists of a Hundred Catties. On its Arrival in China, a Chest of Indian Opium usually weighs about a Hundred and fifteen Catties, but it loses so much in the Course of a few Months that a Chest which weighed a Hundred and twelve originally will yield at the End of the Season a Hundred Catties only. The Turkey Opium consumed as before stated amounted in Value to 1,040,000 Dollars, making a Total of 13,573,115 Dollars for the total Consumption of Opium, Indian and Turkey, for China in that Year.

Will you state the Quantities in 1829 and 1830?

I can state for that Year the different Quantities sold by the Company. In Calcutta the Patna and Benares amounted to 7,909 Chests. The Quantity of Malwa declared for Sale was not to exceed 4,000 Chests; I have taken it therefore at that Amount.

The Opium that came into China through the Portuguese Settlement of Darnaun amounted (and it had all arrived in China) to 4,596 Chests, making a Total for the Market in 1829-30 of Chests 16,305. Of the Turkey Opium for that Year I have no Account, but I have estimated the Quantity for that Year at 1,800 Peculs, which I think may be about the Amount, which would make a Total of 18,105 Chests of Opium.

Can you state the Value of that Importation in 1829-30?

I have an actual Return of Consumption for the first Six Months of that Year; the Year commences on the 1st of April 1829; the actual Consumption of the first Six Months in Indian Opium amounted to 8,041 Chests, and yielded 7,161,154 Dollars. In order to arrive at a Conclusion for the ensuing Six Months, of which I have no actual Return, I have therefore taken a sort of Average, under the latest Quotations of Prices which I have received, shewing a Fall of nearly 100 Dollars in the Malwa Opium; supposing the same Number of Chests to be consumed in the last Six Months, therefore, they would produce 6,600,000 Dollars, shewing a Total of 13,760,000 Dollars. I find that the Price of Turkey Opium had increased very much, having attained 700 Dollars, while the Malwa was only 730. That is quite at variance with my Experience formerly.

What would be the total Amount of that Opium imported into China in the Year 1829-30, if the whole of the Turkey Opium had been sold at the Price you have stated?

[621]

I estimate the Consumption at 1,800 Peculs, but I may be mistaken, Supposing that to be correct, however, the Amount would be 1,260,000; but as this kind is very fluctuating in its Consumption and Price, I am almost unable to make an Estimate with any Certainty.

To what Circumstance do you attribute the great Increase of the Opium Trade within the last Ten Years; was it formerly conducted under different Circumstances?

In some degree it was; but I think that it has been gradually extending itself over China, owing to the Price being now much lower than it was when the Quantity was smaller.

What has been the Diminution in Price, on an Average?

That is a Matter of Calculation, which I cannot answer without going back to previous Years, and comparing the Prices.

Was the Price of 2,000 Dollars you mentioned for Patna Opium an extraordinary Price?

It was a very high Price. I believe it has been as high as 2,500 at one Time, but not at the Time I was in China.

Should you say that, on the Average, the Price of Opium had fallen Fifty per Cent?

I think I may say Forty per Cent.

Was not the whole of the Trade formerly carried on at Macao?

Yes.

What Circumstance induced the Merchants Importers to deviate from the Practice of transacting the whole of their Opium Business at Macao?

The Duties and Charges that the Portuguese imposed, and the Difficulties the Mandarins there threw in the Way of the Trade, which partially drove it to Whampoa, and finally and entirely to the Place where it is now carried on.

At Periods when the ordinary Trade of the Company has been interrupted, has the Opium Trade been interrupted likewise?

That would have no Effect upon it, generally speaking.

Is it understood that the Importation of Opium from Darnaun has been very profitable?

It has been very profitable, but not the last Season.

Do you know in what Manner the Opium is brought to Darnaun?

I do not; I have no local Knowledge in that Quarter.

In whose Hands is that particular Branch of the Trade?

The Hands of the Parsees principally.

Do the Portuguese share in it to any Extent?

To a certain Extent they do, but not to a great Extent.

What is the Price of a Chest of Opium at Calcutta?

It varies very much.

What is the Average Price, when you speak of the Price at Canton being 700 Dollars?

I should think about 1,500 to 1,700 Rupees; but I have not Data to give an accurate Answer to that Question, it varies so very much.

If the Price of the Calcutta Opium were lowered, even in a small Degree, could the Turkey Opium come into competition with it?

The lowering the Price of the Bengal Opium must affect the Price of the Turkey Opium.

Do you know at what Price Turkey Opium can be imported at a Profit?

I do not know; for I never purchased any in Europe. It is principally in the Hands of the Americans; in fact, almost entirely in the Hands of one American House, who have nearly a Monopoly of it in China. By holding such large Quantities, they have a great Command of the Market there.

You do not know whether it has been a profitable Transaction or not, at the Rate of 700 Dollars a Chest?

[622]

I should think it must have been so; but that is the latest Price. I have known it 450, and 500, and 550. It has risen very considerably since I left China, Two Years ago. It fluctuated very much, according to the Quantities thrown in, and the Turkey being principally in one House, they controlled the Market almost as they pleased.

Are you able to state at what Price it becomes a profitable Transaction to the Proprietor?

I am not at all; for I do not know what Price they give for it at Smyrna.

Do the Chinese Authorities never interfere with the Importation of Opium?

It is not imported regularly; it is sent into the Country from the Ships. Every now and then there is a very strong Edict issued against the Trade; but, like other Chinese Edicts, it is nearly powerless. It imposes a little Difficulty perhaps for the Moment, and enables the Mandarins to extort from the Dealers.

Do the Russians import any on the Frontier?

No, I should think not; I never heard of their importing any. The Russians made an Attempt, some Years ago, to come to China by Sea, and there came down an Order to seize the Two Ships, and they would have been seized but that they had luckily sailed. They were under our Management; but long before I was in China an Order came down to seize the Ships, and send up every Man in Confinement. The Emperor did not understand how they could come to China from Two opposite Quarters. The Chinese said the English must have shewn them the Way, or they never could have found it.

It appears, by the Return to which Reference has already been made of the Imports into Canton that the largest Import of Cotton was 342,735 Peculs in 1826-27; that the Imports in 1825-26 and 1827-28 were about equal, amounting to a little more than 270,000 Peculs in each Year; will you state any Information you may possess as to the Imports of Cotton in 1828-29 and 1829-30?

I can state the Imports in the Year 1828-29, as taken from the Canton Register, and I believe that Source of Information to be correct. The Importation in that Year, from the 1st of April to the 15th of February, when probably the whole for that Season had arrived, was, from Bombay, 112,631 Bales; from Bengal, 58,326; from Madras, 13,643; making a Total of 184,600 Bales, weighing 474,223 Peculs, or 63,229,700 Pounds Weight. The Source from whence I get this Information does not give the Value it yielded in China, but I have taken the Average of it at Nine Tales, which would shew in Dollars 5,552,875.

Have there been any considerable Variations in the Price of Raw Cotton in China of late Years?

It has declined very much of late Years.

Has the Quality of it been equally good with that of the Cotton formerly imported into Canton?

The Quality when first I knew Canton was very much superior, or there was a Portion of it very superior. That superior Description now probably finds its way to Europe.

Did it appear to you that the Cotton was inferior generally in its Mode of cleaning, to what it was formerly?

The superior Kinds were, of course, better cleaned, they could afford the Expence; the inferior Kinds not so well cleaned.

Have the goodness to look at this Account, and state whether the Import of any smaller Articles of Account has increased within the last Two Years? (The Account No. 29. being shewn to the Witness.)

I think I can hardly speak to that. I have been away Four Years, and these are minor Articles that come in small Quantities only.

Do they appear in the Price Current?

They do.

[623]

Can you state from the Price Current whether there has been any Increase in the Importation of them?

I should imagine the small Articles from the Straits continue much the same, but there has been an Increase in some Articles; for instance, Woollen Cloths, Cotton Goods and Cotton Yarn.

Whence have those Woollens been imported?

From England; by the Americans almost entirely.

The Account refers to the Country Trade only; have Woollens been imported by the Country Trade?

I am not aware of that.

Have Cotton Manufactures?

Cotton Manufactures, to a certain Extent, have come from England by India; but that is a Branch of Trade which has sprung up principally since I left China.

Do you understand, from the Accounts you have received since you left the Country, that the Importation of Cotton Manufactures is increasing?

My Account is not very positive; but I should apprehend it is increasing.

The Inhabitants generally are clothed in Cotton, are they not?

Almost entirely, excepting the richer Classes.

Are the Cottons of England cheaper than their Cottons?

Their Cottons are very cheap and very strong. I should think, with the present low Prices of Cotton here, we should compete with them in point of Price, but that our Cotton Articles are not so strong as theirs.

If they could obtain for less Money as good an Article as they obtain from their own Manufacturers, have they any Prejudice that would prevent their purchasing it?

I believe none whatever. The Duty on the Raw Material brought into China is so very trifling, and Labour is so cheap, that they can manufacture it very cheaply themselves.

The Value of the Imports into China having increased so much within the last Ten Years, in what Manner have the Returns been made?

In Bullion, in Bars, in Dollars; principally broken Dollars, and in Goods and Bills of Exchange.

Have the goodness to state the Proportion?

To England, Silk, Piece Goods, Raw Silk, Drugs and Nankeens, are the principal Articles.

Those you consider as merely effecting a Remittance?

Yes, merely.

Have they been to any considerable Amount?

I should think the Raw Silk and Nankeens have, as our House have drawn already this Season about £120,000 against Remittances of that kind, by which I conclude that they are sending considerable Remittances.

What do you apprehend to be the total Value of the Remittances made direct from China to England in Goods, as the Returns of the Country Trade?

I am hardly able to speak to that; I have not made a Calculation of that.

In what are the Remittances made to India?

In Bullion, Bars, Dollars and in Goods, of which there is a long List, and Bills of Exchange.

Have you the Quantities?

No, I have not; with some Exceptions they are very trifling; the principal are Sugar, Sugar Candy, Cassia and Raw Silk of a coarse Kind to Bombay, and also some of the finer Kind sent eventually, I suppose, to England; some Nankeens, Pepper, Glass Beads, Fruits and Ginger.

[624]

Have the goodness to state what Proportion of the Returns was made in Bullion?

The Exportation of Bullion from China in the Year 1827-28, which might possibly include a small Amount to London, but I am not aware whether that was the Fact, was 5,668,000 Dollars.

All Silver Bullion?

Yes.

Is that larger than the usual Export into India from China of late Years?

It is rather larger. That of 1828-29 I have not got for the whole Year, only up to the 15th of February, when there had been exported 4,622,298 Dollars, of which the greater Portion was in broken Dollars.

Why are they broken?

The Chinese in paying Dollars to each other have a Practice, with a small Iron Stamp, of striking a Print upon each Dollar, as a Mark of their own; the Consequence is, that as every body who pays a Dollar gives it a Blow of that kind, they soon become cut into small Pieces, so that when exported they are sent to the Mint.

Have you known any Attempts to carry on a Trade in Opium on the Coast of China?

Yes, there have been several, but I believe not with much Success; I believe we were concerned in one or two Attempts during my Absence in China, which we were not encouraged to pursue.

Have any Attempts been made to carry on a Trade in Cotton or any other Articles on the Coast of China?

Previously to my Arrival in China, I think in 1806 or 1807, the House I afterwards joined sent a Cargo of Cotton to Amoy, under an Engagement of joint Participation with a Native of Chinchoo residing at Canton, which he gave Expectations of being a very profitable Concern, under the Management at that Port of a Relative of his own. My Recollection is not very distinct as to the Particulars of this Transaction having taken place previous to my Arrival in China, but the Result was, that the Mandarin's Exactions in that Port were so great, and such Difficulties were thrown into the Way, that the Chinchoo-man's Relation on the Spot was unable to effect the Sale, and the Ship returned to Canton with the Cargo unsold.

Has the Cultivation of Cotton been increased in China of late Years?

Our Information is very vague in regard to the Interior of China, but I apprehend it must have increased, from the Circumstance of their Price having fallen considerably.

Do you expect that the Importation of Cotton Yarn will increase?

Judging from what has taken place since I left China, with the detail of which I am not very well acquainted, however, I think it very likely it will.

Are you of Opinion that the Possession of a Power of making Returns direct from China in Teas would greatly facilitate the Transactions of the Indian Trade generally?

There is no doubt it would. The Facility of making any Returns would be a great Advantage to the Trade.

If the Export of Manufactures to China has been profitable to those who have been engaged in it, to what Circumstances do you attribute the Diminution in the Exports of Manufactures to China by the Americans, and the Circumstance of their carrying on the greatest Part of their Trade in Dollars?

I believe that their Trade in Woollens has been profitable of late Years, since the late Fall of Price here. I was not aware that their Trade in Woollens was decreasing.

Do you apprehend they will continue to carry on the Trade in Dollars?

I think, if the present Exchange continues, or should fall even lower, as is probable, that they will go out to China provided with Credits or Bills on England, and raise their Funds on the Spot.

[625]

Are you of Opinion that the Trade of the Americans, and the Country Trade of India, derive great Advantages from the Existence of The East India Company, as a trading Company at Canton?

I think the American Trade in Teas did derive a great Advantage from the Company, so long as the Company continued to make their Advances in the previous Season for the Teas to be delivered to them the ensuing Season; but that System is now discontinued by the Company.

In what Way did that give an Advantage to the Americans?

The Tea Merchants, that is, the Persons who contract with the Hong Merchants to deliver the Teas to them and collect them in the Country, are generally without Capital, and depend therefore upon the Hong Merchant's Advances to make their Purchases for the ensuing Season. Those Advances were formerly made by the Company many Years; but have been discontinued, in consequence of there having been large Creditors, on one or two Occasions, of a Hong Merchant, who suddenly failed, and previously to his Delivery of the Teas on his Contract with them.

Has no other Advantage than that you have mentioned been derived to the trading of the Americans and others from the Existence of the Company?

I think there is one great Advantage, in that the Company's Servants, acting as one Body, and carrying on an immense Trade, are enabled to resist the Exactions and Extortions thrown in the Way of Trade by the Chinese Government, or the Officers under it.

In the event of the Chinese Government, or their Officers, endeavouring to throw greater Difficulties than had hitherto existed in the Way of the regular Trade, do you imagine the whole Trade might be carried on as the Opium Trade now is, by Smuggling?

I can hardly imagine such a State of Things.

Do you think it is in the Power of the Chinese Government to prevent the smuggling of Opium?

I think it is out of their Power to prevent the smuggling of Opium; it is so much an Article of Necessity by those who have contracted a Habit of using it.

Is it not as necessary to the Interests of the Chinese that they should sell their Teas, as that they should purchase Opium?

I think it more necessary to their Interests.

Would there not, therefore, under those Circumstances, be a strong Combination among the People of China in favour of the Continuance of the Trade, whatever the Disposition of the Officers of Government?

I cannot conceive that the Government could put an End to the Trade altogether; it would find a Vent in some Way.

Can any English Vessels carry on the Trade between South America and Canton?

I believe none at the present Time.

Can they do it by Law?

I believe they can come from South America to China; I do not think the Company's Charter prohibits that.

Do American Ships frequently arrive at Canton from South America?

Occasionally.

What are their Importations?

Bullion, and occasionally Copper.

Has the Import of Metals into China been profitable?

Very profitable of late in Silver uncoined.

Do you allude to Gold or Silver?

Silver; which comes in large Masses from South America, and is sold at a considerable Premium in China at present.

[626]

Has the Importation of other Metals, such as Tin and Iron and Lead, been equally profitable?

Those Metals were principally, if not altogether, imported by the Company. I am not aware of the State of their Profits.

Your House were principally concerned in dealing in Opium?

Almost entirely as Matter of Business; and in Goods, as far as Remittances were required from China only.

You considered that the most profitable Mode of conducting that Trade?

By far.

Were the Exactions on the Part of the Mandarin at the Port of Amoy intended to discourage the Trade on his Part, or merely from a Desire to get more?

The Trade there was entirely disallowed by the Government; and I conceive that had the Ship's Cargo on the Occasion alluded to been sold and landed, it would have been illegal on the Part of the Mandarin who allowed it. The Consequence was, he requested a large Present for himself, but he was so exorbitant that the Adventure would not afford it, and the Ship left in consequence. She sailed at last with the Boats following her, and entreating her to return.

If the Amount of the Exaction had the Effect of preventing the Trade altogether, would it not become his Interest to moderate his Demands, for the Purpose of at least securing some Share to himself?

One should think so; and the Negociation went on for some Time, and the Captain waited 'till there appeared to be no Prospect of Success. The Chinchoo Man in Canton, who ultimately paid Part of the Loss, was quite satisfied with the Return of the Ship.

Was that the first Time that any Foreign Ship had ever made any Attempt?

I believe it was the only Time that any English Ship had made the Attempt with Cotton. The Spaniards formerly traded there.

Have you any Reason to suppose that, if the Mandarin's Exactions had not driven them away, the People were disposed to purchase?

It is at a great Distance of Time, but I believe they were so. They are always disposed to trade.

What was expected to be the Return?

Sycee Silver; which means Silver in Ingots or Bars.

Was any Difficulty anticipated in obtaining the Silver?

None at that Time, Silver being then more plentiful in China than it is now; and although containing only about Two per Cent. Alloy, I have known it at Five per Cent. Discount.

Is the Export of Silver allowed?

At that Time it was allowed to a certain Extent; now it is disallowed entirely.

Notwithstanding that, Sycee Silver is regularly exported?

Yes; much on the same Principle that Opium is imported.

Are the Regulations of the Government, calculated to prevent Trade with Foreigners, habitually set at nought?

Decidedly so; which makes me suppose that, in the Case of a total Stoppage of the Trade, it would find a Vent still.

If Permission were given by the Laws of this Country to carry on the Trade on the Coast of China, do you conceive it could be profitably carried on?

I conceive it would be impossible to carry it on legally.

From what Circumstances?

[627]

The Demands of the Mandarins would be so great and so uncertain, that they could not go there with any Advantage. The Government prohibit trading in any Ports except Canton. They have been more strict of late than formerly.

If the Mandarins thought they could get something by it, would they not be disposed to relax their Demands rather than lose the Trade?

It might answer in regard to one Ship, but in case of its going to any Extent it would, I conceive, be known at Pekin, and the Mandarin would be punished. The Opium has been a Trial of that, and though it has been sold on the Coast, yet it is not to any great Extent.

Is there any Law in China which would prohibit a Chinese Junk, carrying on that sort of Coasting Trade on British Account, starting from Canton?

There is no Law that I am aware of there to prevent a Chinese Junk carrying it on, but one would not like to trust the Chinese to do that on British Account.

Is there any Port of China between Pekin and Canton now, at which there is a considerable domestic Trade carried on by the Chinese?

I believe there are several; there are one or two Places in Fokien and Kiangan; those are the Two principal Tea Countries; and Foreign Trade is carried on to those Provinces to a considerable Extent.

To what Countries do the Chinese carry on Trade from those Ports?

To Cochin China, to Siam, to the Straits, to Sincapore, to the Sooloo Islands, &c.

Are the Chinese inhabiting the Eastern Islands Purchasers of British Manufactures, for the Purpose of importing into China?

I am not sufficiently acquainted with their Habits to say.

From what Ports do Ships sail from China to Japan?

From several, I believe; but I am not very well informed with regard to that Trade now.

In your Opinion, would the Quality of Teas be deteriorated if the Trade were opened, and a greater Quantity exported?

I think that would be the Effect; I think so, from the Company, who contract upon a Scale of Prices applicable to the Quality of the Black Teas deliverable in Canton, not succeeding in getting as much as they could wish of the better Qualities, even at the higher Prices, which they endeavour to do by every Means in their Power; but I believe it is more profitable to the Chinese to produce middling Teas at a middling Price than Teas of the finer Qualities at an increased Rate.

Do you think there would be any Demand in this Country for that Tea of inferior Quality?

I think there is at present a very great Demand, but I think the finest Qualities of Black Teas would almost disappear.

As far as regards that Part of the Transaction, you conceive that would be increased?

I have no doubt it would be increased. Opening the Trade must cause an Increase; the Price here would be so much lower.

Do you look to the Exports of Teas from China, if there were an open Trade, being made with a view to Profit, or only as a Return for the outward Cargo?

I think, after the Trade became settled, that the Export of Teas would become the principal Means of Remittance.

That they would be reduced in this Country as low as they can be?

Yes; that I think must be the Effect.

Do you apprehend, that under those Circumstances the Export of British Manufactures would be greatly increased?

I have no doubt the Exports of British Articles would be very considerably increased by an open Trade in Tea.

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Will you state the particular Articles of Manufacture which you think would find the best Market?

I should think that under such Circumstances Woollens, Camlets and Cotton Piece Goods would gradually and eventually find their Way into China in considerable Quantities.

Do you think Cotton Yarn would also be exported?

Yes; it is so, even under present Circumstances.

Do you think that Effect would be produced by a Reduction of Price, in consequence of Competition?

That would be one Effect; another would be, that if Persons engaged in that Trade were permitted to export Teas, they might send them as a Means of Remittance, the Bar to Trade at present being a Want of Returns; and the Profit would probably be looked for on the Exports to China.

Is there any Indisposition on the Part of the Chinese to use Articles of Hardware, Knives and Forks, and so on, from Europe?

They use no Knives and Forks; but their own Hardware is much cheaper. I believe there is more regard to Cheapness in the Chinese than to Quality. Their own are inferior to ours; but the Price of ours is an Obstacle, I conceive.

Can you state the Price of any particular Article in Hardware at Canton; Table Knives, for instance?

They do not use Table Knives. I have heard that a Razor for shaving the Head can be bought for a few Candareens. Three Cash and Three Quarters make a Farthing, and Ten Cash One Candareen.

How many Candareens buy a Razor?

A few; but I cannot say how many. Every Time they use them they are obliged to hone them. Under an open Trade, I think that Hardware might be introduced, perhaps, being now made so wonderfully cheap in England; I think that the superior Activity and Enterprise of Individuals over that of a Company pursuing a beaten Track, must open new Channels, which it is impossible almost to foresee.

Have they any Disposition to use ornamental Articles; Birmingham Manufactures in Brass, Imitations of Gold, and so on?

No, I do not think they have.

Has there been an increased Demand for Woollens in China of late Years?

Since the Price has fallen there has been an increased Importation. The Demand might go to almost any thing if the Price did not prevent.

They would be more generally worn?

Yes; they like them very much; their Mode of wearing a warm Garment is to put Two Cottons together, and to stuff Cotton Wool between, but they would prefer the Woollen; the Cotton is liable to be wetted directly, the Woollens are not so likely.

For what Species of Articles is the Yarn that is exported into China chiefly used?

It is used, I apprehend, for manufacturing Cloths; but I am very little acquainted with that, being since my Departure.

Do not you think that if they were unable to import Yarn, the European manufactured Articles would fetch a better Price than they do now?

The Importation of Yarn at present has gone to so small an Extent, it cannot be supposed to have affected their Manufactures much.

Do you know whether the Americans have often suffered from Exactions on the Part of the Chinese Government?

I am not aware that they have. The Exactions do not fall directly upon Individuals; they come on the Trade generally. The Chinese do not acknowledge us at all; they say, we have nothing to do with you; we allow our People to trade with you, but we know nothing whatever about you; they look to the Merchant who becomes Security.

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In fact, do you think that the Company, by being a Company, have Advantages over individual Merchants?

I think that, by carrying on their immense Trade, they have an Influence that in case of the Government imposing Impositions on the Merchants and others, they are enabled to check them in their Progress, or to cause them to be done away with; that I have known to occur. Individuals cannot be brought to act as a Body; their Interests are various and opposite, and each acts for himself.

Would not a British Consul supply the Place now occupied by the Company in regard to Authority in controlling the Conduct of Individuals?

I think that a Person unconnected with the Trade cannot have the same Power as Persons connected with the Trade and having an Authority also.

There are American and Dutch Consuls residing at Canton, are there not?

Yes, there are.

Do you know what degree of Authority they have over the Trade of their respective Countries?

They have little or no Authority; the American Consul had no Authority; he was a mere Commercial Officer in fact, I believe, until Mr. Wilcox was appointed. The Consul has no Power whatever over them, but is merely a sort of Authority to register their Mercantile Proceedings; in fact, that was proved on an Occasion some Years back, when a Sailor belonging to one of their Ships was strangled by the Government; it was then proved that the Consul had no Authority over his Countrymen.

Has he no Police Authority in respect to the Ships of his own Country?

I believe none whatever.

Has the Dutch Consul any?

I am not aware what the Power of the Dutch Consul may be; when I left China it was a new Appointment.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

John Crawfurd Esquire is called in, and further examined as follows:

Are you acquainted with the Coasting Trade of the Chinese, and can you state the Course of that Trade, and the Amount of Tonnage employed in it?

I have paid a great deal of Attention to the Chinese Trade. I will beg to deliver in a Paper containing an Account of the Native Foreign Trade of China.

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

NATIVE FOREIGN TRADE of CHINA.

The principal Part of the Junk Trade is carried on by the Four contiguous Provinces of Canton, Fokien, Chekiang and Kiannan. No Foreign Trade is permitted with the Island of Formosa; and I have no means of describing the Extent of the Traffic which may be conducted between China, Corea and the Serchew Islands. The following are the Countries with which China carries on a Trade in Junks; viz. Japan, the Phillippines, the Sooloo Islands, Celebes, the Moluccas, Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Sincapore, Rhio, the East Coast of the Malayan Peninsula, Siam, Cochin China, Cambodia and Tonquin. The Ports of China at which this Trade are conducted are, Canton, Tchao-tcheou, Nomhong, Hoeit-cheou, Su-heng, Kongmoon, Changhin and Hainan, in the Province of Canton; Amoy and Chinchen, in the Province of Fokien; Ningpo and Siang-hai, in the Province of Tchekian; and Soutcheon, in the Province of Kiannan. The following may be looked upon as an Approximation to the Number of Junks carrying on Trade with the different Places already enumerated; viz.

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This Statement does not include a great Number of small Junks belonging to the Island of Hainan, which carry on Trade with Tonquin, Cochin China, Cambodia, Siam and Sincapore. Those for Siam amount yearly to about Fifty, and for the Cochin Chinese Dominions to about Forty-three; these alone would bring the total Number of Vessels carrying on a direct Trade between China and Foreign Countries to 307. The Trade with Japan is confined to the Port of Ningpo in Chekiang, and expressly limited to Ten Vessels; but as the Distance from Nangasaki is a Voyage of no more than Four Days, it is performed twice a Year. With the Exception of this Branch of Trade, the Foreign Intercourse of the Two Provinces of Chekian and Kiannan, which are famous for the Production of Raw Silk, Teas and Nankeens, is confined to the Phillippine Islands (fn. 1), Tonquin, Cochin China, Cambodia and Siam; and none of this Class of Vessels, that I am aware of, have ever found their Way to the Western Parts of the Indian Archipelago. The Number of these trading with Siam is Twenty-four, all of considerable Size; those trading with the Cochin Chinese Dominions, Sixteen, also of considerable Size; and those trading with the Phillippines Five, making in all Forty-five; of which the average Burthen does not fall short of 17,000 Tons. I am the more particular in describing this Branch of the Chinese Commerce, as we do not ourselves at present partake of it, and as we possess no direct Means of obtaining Information in regard to it. All the Junks carrying on this Trade with Siam are owned in the latter Country, and not in China; and I am not sure how far it may not also be so in the other Cases. I do not doubt but that a similar Commerce will, in the event of a Free Trade, extend to Sincapore, and that through this Channel may eventually be obtained the Green Teas of Kiannan and the Raw Silks of Chekian.

Besides the Junks now described, there is another numerous Class, which may be denominated the Colonial Shipping of the Chinese. Wherever the Chinese are settled in any Numbers, Junks of this Description are to be found, such as in Java, Sumatra, the Straits of Malacca, &c but the largest Commerce of this Description is conducted from the Cochin Chinese Dominions, but especially from Siam, where the Number was estimated to me at 200. Several Junks of this Description from the latter Country come annually to Sincapore, of which the Burthen is not less than from 300 to 400 Tons.

The Junks which trade between China and the adjacent Countries are some of them owned and built in China, but a considerable Number also in the latter Countries, particularly in Siam and Cochin China. Of those carrying on the Siamese Trade, indeed, no less than Eighty-one, out of the Eighty-nine, of considerable Size, were represented to me as being built and owned in Siam. The small Junks, however, carrying on the Trade of Hainan, are all built and owned in China.

The Junks, whether Colonial or trading direct with China, vary in Burthen from 2,000 Peculs to 15,000, or carry of dead Weight from about 120 to 900 Tons. Of those of the last Size I have only seen Three or Four, and these were at Siam, and the same which were commonly employed in carrying a Mission and Tribute yearly from Siam to Canton. Of the whole of the large Class of Junks, I should think the average Burthen will not be overrated at 300 Tons each, which would make the total Tonnage employed in the Native Foreign Trade of China between 60,000 and 70,000 Tons, exclusive of the small Junks of Hainan, which, estimated at 150 Tons each, would make in all about 80,000 Tons.

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The Junks built in China are usually constructed of Fir and other inferior Woods. When they arrive in Cambodia, Siam and the Malayan Islands, they commonly furnish themselves with Masts, Rudders and Wooden Anchors, of the superior Timber of these Countries. The Junks built in Siam are a superior Class of Vessels, the Planks and upper Works being invariably of Teak. The Cost of Shipbuilding is highest at the Port of Amoy in Fokien, and lowest in Siam. At these Places, and at Chang-hin, in Canton, the Cost of a Junk of 8,000 Peculs, or 476 Tons Burthen, was stated to me by several Commanders of Junks to be as follows:

A Junk of the Size just named has commonly a Crew of 90 Hands, consisting of the following Officers besides the Crew: a Commander, a Pilot, an Accountant, a Captain of the Helm, a Captain of the Anchor and a Captain of the Hold. The Commander receives no Pay, but has the Advantage of the Cabin Accommodation for Passengers, reckoned, on the Voyage between Canton and Sincapore, worth 150 Spanish Dollars. He is also the Agent of the Owners, and receives a Commission commonly of Ten per Cent. on the Profits of such Share of the Adventure, generally a considerable one, in which they are concerned. The Pilot receives for the Voyage 200 Dollars of Wages, and Fifty Peculs of Freight out and home. The Helmsman has Fifteen Peculs of Freight, and no Wages. The Captains of the Anchor and the Hold have Nine Peculs of Freight each; and the Seamen Seven Peculs each. None of these have any Wages. The Officers and Seamen of the Colonial Junks are differently rewarded. In a Siamese Junk, for example, trading between the Siamese Capital and Sincapore, of 6,000 Peculs Burthen, the Commander and Pilot had each 100 Dollars for the Voyage, with Twelve Peculs of Freight apiece. The Accountant and Helmsman had Half of this Allowance; and each Seaman had Thirteen Dollars, with Five Peculs of Freight.

The Construction and Outfit of a Chinese Junk are too well known to require Description. They are clumsy and awkward in the extreme. The Chinese are quite unacquainted with Navigation, saving the Knowledge of the Compass; notwithstanding this, as their Pilots are expert, as their Voyages are short, and as they hardly ever sail except at the Height of the Monsoons, when a fair and steady Seven or Eight Knot Breeze carries them directly from Port to Port, the Sea Risk is very small. During Thirteen Years Acquaintance with this Branch of Trade, I can recollect hearing of but Four Shipwrecks; and in all these Instances the Crews were saved.

The Construction and Rigging of a Chinese Junk may be looked upon as her proper Registry, and they are a very effectual one; for the least Deviation from them would subject her at once to Foreign Charges and Foreign Duties, and to all kinds of Suspicion. The Colonial Junks, which are of a more commodious Form and Outfit, would, if visiting China, be subjected to the same Duties as Foreign Vessels. Junks built in Siam, or any adjacent Country, if constructed and fitted out after the customary Model, are admitted to trade to China upon the same Terms as those built and owned in the Country. If any Part of the Crew consist of Siamese, Cochin Chinese, or other Foreigners, the latter are admitted only at the Port of Canton; and if found in any other Port of China, would be seized and taken up by the Police, exactly in the same Manner as if they were Europeans. The Native Trade of China conducted with Foreign Countries is not a clandestine Commerce, unacknowledged by the Chinese Laws, but has in every Case at least the express Sanction of the Viceroy or Governor of the Province, who, on Petition, decides the Number of Junks that shall be allowed to engage in it, and even enumerates the Articles which it shall be legal to export and import; at every Port also where such a Foreign Trade is sanctioned, there is a Hong, or Body of Security Merchants, as at Canton; a Fact which shews clearly enough that this Institution is Parcel of the Laws or Customs of China, and not a peculiar Restraint imposed upon the Intercourse with Europeans.

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The Chinese Junks properly constructed pay no Measurement Duty, and no Kumsha, or Present; Duties, however, are paid upon Goods exported and imported, which seem however to differ at the different Provinces. They are highest at Amoy, and lowest in the Island of Hainan. The Chinese Traders of Siam informed me that they carried on the fairest and easiest Trade, subject to the fewest Restrictions, in the Ports of Ningpo and Sianghai, in Chekian, and Souchon in Kiannan. Great Dexterity seems everywhere to be exercised by the Chinese in evading the Duties. One Practice, which is very often followed, will afford a good Example of this. The Coasting Trade of China is nearly free from all Duties and other Imposts. The Merchant takes Advantage of this, and intending in reality to proceed to Siam or Cochin China, for example, clears a Junk out for the Island of Hainan, and thus avoids the Payment of Duties. When she returns, she will lie Four or Five Days off and on at the Mouth of the Port, until a regular Bargain be made with the Custom House Officers for the Reduction of Duties. The Threat held out in such Cases is to proceed to another Port, and thus deprive the public Officers of their customary Perquisites. I was assured of the Frequency of this Practice by Chinese Merchants of Cochin China, as well as by several Commanders of Junks at Sincapore. From the last-named Persons I had another Fact of some Consequence, as connected with the Chinese Trade; viz. that a good many of the Junks carrying on Trade with Foreign Ports to the Westward of China often proceeded on Voyages to the Northward in the same Season. In this Manner they stated that about Twenty considerable Junks, besides a great many small ones, proceeded annually from Canton to Souchon, one of the Capitals of Kiannan, and in Wealth and Commerce the Rival of Canton, where they sold about 200 Chests of Opium at an Advance of Fifty per Cent. beyond the Canton Prices. Another Place where the Canton Junks, to the Number of Five or Six, repair annually, is Chinchen, in the Province of Shanton, within the Gulph of Pechely or Yellow Sea, and as far North as the Thirty-seventh Degree of Latitude.

What appears to be the total Amount of Tonnage engaged in the Foreign Trade of China, by the Account you have read?

Two hundred and twenty-two Junks is the Number given there.

What is the Amount of Tonnage?

I am not able to make an accurate Estimate of that. The Junks are so very various in their Sizes, that it is extremely difficult to make an Estimate; they are from a Hundred and fifty to a Thousand Tons. I should take them at Sixty or Seventy thousand Tons, but that is a mere Estimate.

In that Estimate, do you include the Vessels employed in carrying on the Coasting Trade of China?

No; I have no Knowledge of that Branch of Trade, except in so far as those Vessels carrying on the Foreign Trade of China may be occasionally employed in the Coasting Trade, and some of them I know are.

Have you ever known the Chinese purchase British Manufactures in any of the Eastern Islands, for Sale in China?

To a very small Extent, occasionally.

What Articles of Manufacture have they purchased?

Generally speaking they do not purchase Articles of Manufacture. The rough Produce of the Eastern Islands, commonly speaking, is what they purchase. When they do purchase manufactured Articles, they are commonly British.

What particular Articles have they purchased?

Broad Cloths, White Cottons and Iron. Those may be looked upon as the chief Articles; but I beg again to repeat, that the Junk Traders do not purchase British Manufactures to any Extent. The Chinese Junks that trade with Cochin China and Siam do purchase British Manufactures at Sincapore to a great Extent, but not those trading directly from Sincapore and the other Eastern Islands to China.

If the Import of British Manufactures into China be very profitable, the Restriction only being the Difficulty of obtaining Returns, can you assign any Reason why the Chinese should not import the British Manufactures which they can obtain from the Eastern Islands?

I imagine the principal Difficulty is our not taking from the Chinese that which they have to give, the staple Export of China - Tea.

The Chinese carries whatever he has to give, Tea and every other Article, to the Eastern Islands, and carries back his Return Cargo; can you assign any Reason for his not selecting British Manufactures as a Part of that Return Cargo?

I suppose that the other Articles he is able to get there are found to be more profitable.

What are those Articles; are they the Produce of the Eastern Islands generally?

Barks, Dye Woods, esculent Birds Nests or Swallows Nests, Rattans, Pepper, Tin, Betel Nut or Areca, and a very considerable Supply, lately, of Indian Opium-a very large and increasing Supply indeed of that Article.

If it is more profitable to the Chinese to import those Articles into China, would it not be more profitable for the European Merchant to import those into China in preference to British Manufactures?

They do import such of these Articles as Europeans have a local practical Knowledge of into China. There are some, however, of which they can form no Judgment, and which therefore they cannot safely trade in.

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Is there no Article imported into China which produces less Profit than British Manufacture?

I cannot give any satisfactory Information to the Committee upon that Point.

When you talk of importing into China, from what Place do you understand the Articles to be imported?

My Reference is at the present Moment almost entirely to the Island of Sincapore; there are many other Branches of the Trade of the Chinese with which I am familiar, but my Evidence at the present Moment is chiefly with reference to the Island of Sincapore, where I resided Three or Four Years as Principal of the Settlement, under the Direction of The Governor General of India.

Are there not Articles in which a Consignment directly from England to China might be profitable, the Consignment of which through Sincapore may not?

That is sufficiently proved by the extensive Importations into China from England by the Americans; for the Americans have the Power to carry to China those Articles of Straits Produce, as they are often called, to China as well as we; but they do not carry them to any considerable Extent.

Have not the Exports of British Manufactures by the Americans decreased of late?

No; I believe they have largely increased.

Has not the greater Portion of the American Trade been carried on in Dollars of late?

A great Proportion has always been carried on in Dollars, but a considerable Proportion of late Years in Bills drawn on America and this Country. It has been carried on also of late in a good measure also through British Manufactured Goods exported, sometimes from the United States, but more frequently from this Country.

Does the Country Trade of India compete with the Chinese in the Foreign Trade of China of which you have spoken; is there much Trade in Country Ships between China and Cochin China?

There is no Trade whatever in Country Ships between China and Cochin China. In some of the Staple Articles of Export from the British Possessions in India and the Malay Islands to China, the Country Trade of India competes largely with the Native Trade of China, as, for example, in the Article of Indian Opium, in the Article of Turkey Opium, in the Article of Pepper, of Areca Nut, and of Tin. It does not compete with the Chinese Trade in some other Articles, as, for instance, in Barks and Dye Woods, in esculent Birds Nests, and other peculiar Articles of that Nature. The British Traders do not, as I have said before, venture to trade in these Articles.

Are they too unimportant?

Birds Nests form a large Article.

Can you state why no British Manufactures are sent to China by means of the Country Trade?

There are considerable Quantities sent.

Will you state the Articles?

They are enumerated in Page 44 of the Papers relating to the Trade of India and China, printed by the House of Commons the 4th of June 1829.

Will you state from that Account, the Articles of European Manufacture?

Iron, Lead, Steel.

Tin is of Eastern Produce?

Yes.

State the Value of the Iron imported into Canton the last Year?

10,470 Dollars.

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State the Value of the Lead imported?

The Lead is 12,504 Dollars.

There appears to be no Steel, is there?

None in that Year.

Is there any Cutlery?

There is none in the last Two Years.

Will you state the Value of the Broad Cloth imported by the Country Trade?

34,467 Spanish Dollars.

Of Long Ells?

25,575 Dollars.

Do you apprehend that the Cotton Goods sent out are the Goods of English or of Indian Manufacture?

The Indian are distinguished in the Account; those below them are clearly British.

Will you state their Amount?

66,487 Dollars.

There appear to have been no Handkerchiefs since the Year 1821-22?

No.

Are there any other Articles of British Manufacture?

There are Articles, not of British Manufacture, but Articles apparently exported from this Country to India, and re-exported again.

What are those?

I should conceive Quicksilver to be one of those, and Skins; perhaps Prussian Blue and Smalts, &c but those are all unimportant Articles. In fact, it is a Trade which cannot, from the circuitous Course in which it must be pursued, be carried to any great Extent; and I have seen Quotations from the Canton Price Current, stating that Exports of British Manufactures have been made from Canton to the Continent of India, such as Metals, from the Want of any other Mode of Remittance.

Has not the Price of British Manufactures in India been occasionally lower than the original Price in England?

I should think that, if such a thing ever happened, it must have been a very rare Event indeed. To be able, according to the Inquiries I have made in this Country, to ascertain the real Prime Cost of an Article, is a Matter of extreme Difficulty. An Article in India may have sold for less than it cost the Importer; but the Idea of its being sold for a less Amount than it cost in this Country is a thing highly improbable. If it took place once, it could hardly take place a second Time; or at least it could only take place for a very short Period of Time, for no Man would persevere in a Trade that would not pay Prime Cost.

What additional Charge, do you apprehend, would be placed on Goods sent out from England to China in consequence of its being necessary to tranship them at Sincapore, supposing that to be necessary?

I should think that would not be very considerable.

If it is not considerable, has not the British Merchant now the Means of sending out British Manufactures to China?

If he had the Means of making a Return, he would; if the British Merchant could purchase a Supply of the staple Article of China as a Remittance, he would have ample Means of supplying China with British Manufactures.

Has not the Country Trade been principally in the Hands of British Merchants?

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The greater Part of it, I should suppose, has; but there are many others besides British Merchants, in India, concerned in that Trade. The Parsees of Bombay are personally engaged in it; and the Capital of Hindoo Merchants at Calcutta is very largely engaged in it.

As regards British Merchants, how do you account for the great Increase of it in their Hands, if the Difficulty be so great in obtaining Returns from China?

There is a free Exchange in the Production of those Two Countries; they are placed under very different Circumstances from those affecting the Trade between China and Great Britain.

Is it necessary, for the successful Conduct of Trade, that it should be direct between Two Ports, between England and Canton for instance?

I conceive it absolutely necessary, if we expect the Chinese to take our Goods, that we should be ready to take theirs in return.

Is not that Trade often the most profitable which is the most circuitous?

I should think there is no Distinction of that sort; that all Trades may be equally profitable, whether circuitous or otherwise.

If a British Merchant exported, as he now may, from Sincapore, British Manufactures to China, and sent a Return Cargo from China to India, which Cargo might then come to England; might not that Trade be as profitable as a direct Trade between India and China?

The Trade likely to be most profitably carried on between Two Nations must be that subject to the least Restriction; that which can be carried on with the fewest Limitations. If a Trade be forced into a circuitous Channel, it must be less advantageous than that which can be carried on directly.

Have the goodness to state whether that Trade, though circuitous, may not be still a profitable Trade?

It may be a profitable Trade; but it may be less profitable than a direct Trade would be.

Then can you assign any Reason why it is not carried on at all; why British Manufactures are not sent to China through Sincapore, and Returns made through India?

I have already explained that. If this Country does not take from the Chinese the Articles which the Chinese have to give, we have no Right to expect that the Chinese should receive our Goods.

What do the Chinese give in return for all the Opium and all the Cotton sent to China?

They give in return various Articles; but I believe chiefly the Tea that is furnished to this Country.

What are the Returns made direct from China to India?

There are a good Number of Articles sent from China to India. Just now the principal Article of Export from China to India is Bullion.

You have stated what are the Returns you have made from China as the Proceeds of the Cargoes sent from India to Canton; might not Returns be equally made in the same Articles for the Proceeds of British Manufactures sent to China through Sincapore?

India only can take a limited Portion of the Exports of China; the principal Import, I have shewn, is Bullion.

Is there any Difficulty in increasing the Export of Bullion?

That depends upon the State of the Trade in the Two Countries.

Is not Bullion always procurable in China in exchange for any Articles which may be exported to that Country?

It is always procurable, but it depends on Circumstances whether it will make a profitable Return to the Exporter. I have mentioned a Case where it was not, and where the Exporter was compelled to have British Manufactures in return as an Export to India. India requires only a limited Supply of Bullion, like every other Country.

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Can you state why the Americans should have conducted Four Fifths of their Trade generally in Dollars; why they should not have exported Merchandize to a larger Amount?

I think that the Americans have not the Means of exporting Manufactures to a large Amount. They have no Manufactures of their own which they could furnish to the Chinese. The Quantity of British Manufactures exported by them is yearly increasing.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, One o'Clock.