Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence, 17 June 1830

Die Jovis, 17 Junii 1830.

[599]

The Lord President in the Chair.

Mr. John Simpson is called in, and examined as follows:

What is your Business?

That of an Insurance Broker in London.

Have you been long engaged in that Business?

Yes, upwards of Thirty Years.

What is at present the Insurance upon a Ship of the best Description to Canton and back?

The Premium now is about Six per Cent. out and home.

Is that the Premium on the best of the Company's Ships?

It is.

Do not the Company usually insure themselves?

They never do.

What is this-the Insurance on Goods of private Persons on board?

Yes; and some Ships belonging to private Individuals are insured at that Rate.

What Ships belonging to private Individuals do you refer to?

There are a great many belonging to private Individuals that are taken up by the Company for a certain Number of Voyages out and home; it is these I allude to.

Is there a Difference in the Rate of Insurance on those Vessels, and on the Goods carried in The East India Company's Vessels?

No, not any.

There is no Difference in the Rate of Insurance between a Ship of 600 and one of 1,200 Tons?

No; many would prefer the smaller.

Do the Americans effect Insurances on their Ships in this Country, when they undertake a Voyage to Canton?

Very seldom.

Do you know of any Instance?

I remember one some Years ago, and the Premium was complained of, stating they could have done it at less Expence in America.

Was it insured at a higher or lower Premium than an English one, and at the same Time?

About the same Rate.

Has there been any great Alteration in the Rate of Insurance since the Peace?

Not by the Company's Ships.

None at all?

Not any; it has always been the same on the Company's Ships, to China particularly.

[600]

Is it not supposed that the Sea Risk is smaller now than it was formerly?

No, I never heard of any such Supposition.

Not since the Peace?

No; the Sea Risk is the same always. I am not aware that the Seasons have changed.

Are there other Vessels better navigated and better found than there used to be, and which make their Voyages in a much shorter Time than they did?

No; I don't think there are. In the Time of War, going with Convoy, they were longer; but since the Peace it has been usually the same.

Are Liverpool Ships insured at Liverpool as they are at London?

That Trade is confined to Bombay, Calcutta and other Parts; not to China. The Liverpool Insurances are generally done in London, and at a less Rate than what the Ships of the Company are done at now; same Voyage.

Is that the Case with Ships from any of the other Outports?

Yes, it is generally; there is much greater Competition in the doing of them than in the Trade of the Company's Ships. The Premium upon private Vessels to China and back would be Five Pounds per Cent. instead of Six Pounds. Were the Trade open immediately, it would be less, from its being less Risk, as they would not be subject to Mischief in the Downs; and less from the Competition that would take place, as the Outport Business is done in London through Brokers, between whom there is always great Competition. I have seen lately a Ship done from here to Calcutta and back at Six Pounds per Cent. belonging to a London House, and I have seen a similar Ship belonging to Liverpool, from London to Calcutta and back, for Four Pounds at the same Time.

The Vessels being equally sea-worthy?

Yes.

How much of that Difference do you attribute to the greater Danger of a Voyage from London?

They were both from hence; but the Private Trade has that Competition which the Company's Trade and Ships have not. The Premium of out and home at Six Pounds per Cent. is an old established Premium given in London, and given and taken in both Ways.

Why should not the Company's Officers, who insure the Goods they ship for China, insure them at a lower instead of a higher Rate; they might go to any one, might not they?

I do not know. There are old established Connections, and perhaps Credit; and many of those who give Six Pounds per Cent. are Underwriters themselves, and take Six per Cent. There is not that Competition, nor ever was, that there would be if the Trade were opened.

You think the Effect of opening the Trade would be, that the Insurance at this Time of a good Ship would be about Four Pounds to Calcutta and back?

Yes; and Five Pounds to Canton and back.

Is it the same to Canton as it is to Calcutta?

There would be about One per Cent. Difference always.

Where; to Canton more?

Yes.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Captain William Maxfield is called in, and examined as follows:

What is your Profession, Captain Maxfield?

I have been employed in the Naval Service of The East India Company, in India.

[601]

Were you in that Service many Years?

For almost an uninterrupted Period of Twenty-five Years.

Had you Occasion, during that Period, to be frequently employed in different Situations?

Yes, in various Situations.

Had you extensive Means of becoming acquainted with the Commercial Shipping of the Company?

Yes.

What is the Number of Men, and what is the Number of Guns, in a China Ship of the largest Dimensions and of the highest Tonnage?

I should imagine, speaking from Recollection, the Number of Men would be about 130, and probably, at the present Time, from Thirty to Forty Guns, in the 1,200 or 1,400 Tons Ships; from Thirty to Forty Guns and 130 Men; I think they generally estimate the Men at Ten per 100 Tons.

How many Men would there be to work her?

If the Question is meant in Action, I should say the whole of the Crew would not be more than would be competent to work; being very heavy-rigged. Vessels, or almost as heavy as a Seventyfour, the whole 130 would be employed if there were much manouvering; but to fight such a Ship well with 130 Men is quite out of the Question.

How many Men ought there to be to each Gun?

It depends on the Size of the Gun.

What is the Size of the Guns?

I take it they mostly carry on their Main Decks Eighteenpounders; I dare say they do. I have seen some Eighteenpounders on board some of them, Twelve and Eighteen-pounders, and some of a lighter Description of Gun; they are not confined to any particular Class of Gun; the Number of Guns is settled by the Company. I speak from the Belief of the Variety of Guns I have seen on board; I have seen some with the Govers Gun, and a Variety of them; I believe that is optional with the Owners; I am not positive.

You cannot say how many Men you think would be required to work Half her Guns?

Why, so to fight the Guns and to work the Ship at the same Time, we must embrace the manouvering of the Vessel, as well as having the Guns below. It would depend on how she was to be fought. If she were to be fought as a Man-of-War, she requires a considerable Number more than her ordinary Complement; but if it is to be considered as that sort of Defence you expect from a Merchant Ship with a limited Number of Hands, the Action would be carried on with less Spirit and Effect than if the Guns had more Men to fight them.

How should you estimate the Efficiency of one of the Company's large China Ships as a Man-of-War; to what sized Man-of-War would she be equal?

That is a difficult Question to answer with reference to the actual Number of Men put on board agreeably to their present Establishment. It would be invidious to say what I think of it as to a Vessel of War; but it can best be answered by coming at what they have taken, and what they have been taken by.

Will you state any Instance of their having been taken?

I recollect the Capture of the Kent, and of the Triton, Two 800 Ton Ships. The Kent had Troops on board independent of her Crew; 100 or 200 Troops besides the Complement of the Ship. The Kent was taken by a French Privateer of Sixteen or Eighteen Guns, called "The Confiance," in the Bay of Bengal.

How many Guns had the Kent?

About Thirty or Forty Guns on board, I suppose.

Had she that Number with only 800 Tons?

[602]

I dare say she might have had Thirty, for in War Time I imagine the Owners put on board more Guns than the ordinary Establishment now. I imagine she had Thirty Guns, but probably Twenty-six; some 800 Tons have Twenty-six. I, however, think it is more than probable she had Thirty at the Time.

You have been speaking of a China Ship as having 130 Men?

Yes.

Do you know an Instance of a China Ship being taken?

I cannot call to my Recollection any taken by a Vessel of that Description; I recollect "The Brunswick" being taken, but she was taken by a French Eighty-four and Two Frigates; but that does not bear on the Question. I cannot call to my Recollection; it does not immediately occur to me.

In what Manner do the Company take up their Ships for the China Trade?

I believe they take up their Ships generally by public Tender, by Advertisement.

For what Period of Time?

I believe the China Ships are by the Letter of an Act of Parliament taken up for Six Voyages, except in some Cases of Emergency, in which the Act permits the Company to engage them for One; but the Generality of the China Ships are engaged for Six Voyages certain.

The Act permits the Company to take up Ships that have gone Six Voyages for a shorter Period afterwards?

Yes.

The Act does not oblige the Company to take Ships of a particular Tonnage?

I cannot speak precisely to that Particular in the Act, whether it limits them or not; but the general Act with respect to the Commerce of India limited the Size of Free Traders to a certain Tonnage; but I am not aware whether the Act of the 58th of George the 3d specifically adverts to the Size. I suppose the Company are left to engage them as suits their Convenience.

Can you compare the Trade to China for a Ship of 600 Tons and a Ship of 1,200 Tons; what would be the Difference?

I do not know what would be the Difference, I cannot state what would be the Difference; but there are so few Ships of 1,200 Tons applicable to any Trade in England, except the Trade with China. There is no other Trade England possesses that requires Ships of that Class. The Ships being few, the Competition must be comparatively trifling. It is not easy to come at the Fact of the relative Expence or Rate at which such Ships could sail; but I should conceive, that if I were permitted to trade to China, or any where else, and I had Two Ships, one of 1,200 Tons, and the other of 600 Tons, I should sail the 1,200 Ton Ship for less than double the Expence for which I could sail the other. It would not cost me more. But I should feel very reluctant in expending that large Amount of Capital in One Block; it might not even be judicious to do it, though it might at first appear to be Economy. That is quite a Matter of Opinion.

You have never been in China yourself?

I have never been at China. I have been in the China Seas cruising.

Then any Information you could give would be from Hearsay?

As to China itself.

Has a Ship of 1,200 Tons any Advantage over a Ship of 600 Tons, in navigating the China Seas?

No. I am aware that large Ships have some Advantage in the Port Duties at China, from that Mode of levying the Duty by Measurement; but I know of no other Advantage that she would have.

None in Navigation?

No, not in point of Navigation. I think she would have less Advantage; she would be more likely to meet with Accident than a smaller one, and she is less convenient for taking in a Cargo.

[603]

Do you consider The East India Company's Mode of chartering Ships as economical?

No.

In what respect?

In illustrating why I conceive it not to be economical, it will be necessary to go into a little more than the chartering;-it is the Application of the Trade after getting Possession of it, as well as the Mode of taking the Ships up. I beg to state why I consider it not economical. If the Company confine their Trade with China to a Class of Ships with which there is no Competition in the British Market, it is quite clear these Ships are built expressly for their Trade, and being inapplicable to any other, it reduces the Competitors in the Market in their Employment, and consequently augments the Expence. But to say that they don't conduct their Trade economically, I might go to the Mode of loading their Ships. Those large Ships are taken up at the high Rate of Freight at which the Company have been hiring them during the War, say at Forty-four Pounds and Fifty-five Pounds per Ton, which for many Years were sent from India to China; not above One Half were laden on the Company's Account; from Bombay to China not unfrequently above Two Fifths laden on the Company's Account; the remaining Three Fifths became the Emolument of the Commander, who received on board Cotton from Bombay, and carried it into the China Market, and met The East India Company in their own Market. I can't consider that an economical Way of employing a Ship, taking it at such a Rate of Freight.

If a different Mode of contracting for Ships were pursued, you conceive there would be a Saving in the Commercial Expenditure of the Company?

Undoubtedly; inasmuch as Tonnage, I conceive, might be had at about Ten Pounds per Ton to and from China. If the Ships of the Country, generally called A. at Lloyd's, were engaged instead of these large expensive Ships, I conceive a Saving might be made of between £500,000 and £700,000 a Voyage on the whole of the Ships engaged at one Period in The East India Company's Service, imagining that they all made One Voyage. I take the whole of the Ships at one Period in the Employment of the Company; but they don't all make One Voyage in the Year; some of them are out, and some of them are at home, and some on their Passage; some fitting out: I am taking the whole of the Ships engaged. It is with reference to a Statement I laid before the Court of Proprietors, describing the Rate at which their Ships were taken out; my Observation applies to what is founded on that Data. If they all made One Voyage, such a Sum would be saved. It would be a very considerable Saving, for the larger Ships are taken up as high as Twenty-six Pounds per Ton; if a Ship could be had at Ten Pounds per Ton, the Saving would be enormous.

Do you conceive there is any Disadvantage, in a Commercial point of view, in fitting up The East India Company's Ships in the expensive Way they are, partly for Commercial Purposes and partly for Warlike Purposes?

No; I can't consider the Advantage to be derived from the Mode of equipping them commensurate with the increased Expence attending it.

Can you state an Instance of a China Ship being lost at Sea?

I remember a Ship called the "True Briton," that was never heard of, on her Voyage from Bombay to China. But it may be as well to state that a Ship that leaves China, as the Company's Ships do, laden with Tea-the finest and the lightest Cargo in the World-must be a wretchedly bad Ship if she can't make a Voyage to Europe at the Season of the Year the most favourable of all others. There is an Instance of one, "The Ganges," which was lost on the Return Voyage; that was a 1,200 Ton Ship. A Tea Cargo is perhaps better adapted for rendering a Ship safe than any other that can be put on board a Ship.

Are not Articles exported to China less bulky than those imported from China?

I believe The East India Company export very little to China, and what they do I don't suppose occupies One Third of the Tonnage of the Ship altogether. The Freight is of great Value, whether occupied or not; but they export Articles of great Value.

[604]

Is not that the Reason why they do not occupy so much Room, that the Articles are small in Bulk and great in Value?

Yes; that is a Reason why they should furnish Tonnage sufficient to bring Home Tea; but I have adverted to the lading of Ships only partially from Bombay to China. It was the more remarkable, as the Company at the Period I allude to, when these Ships were but half-laden from Bombay to China, received Cotton as Revenue from Guzerat, which they might and ought to have sent to China in their own Ships, to pay for the Tea.

Do you know what was the Price of Cotton at that Time in India?

No; but Cotton has always been an Article of Demand at China, and what in general realizes a Profit. I think I might safely add always from Bombay; but in general, certainly.

The Americans trading in Dollars principally to China must, in an outward Voyage, have almost the whole of the Tonnage unoccupied?

Those Ships which go direct to China; but the American Ships, though they carry Dollars, they occupy no Room, and the Ship makes a circuitous Voyage, by which she is navigated nearly Two Thirds of the Globe, carrying Cargoes from Port to Port before she reaches China. I don't mention it as a general Rule, but the American generally leaves his own Country provided with Dollars, and trades from Port to Port. I have found them in Ports in India where an English Merchant Ship is hardly ever heard of.

That was in former Times, was it not?

It was before the Free Trade was open.

Since the System of Free Trade, their Trade has fallen off very much with India?

Yes; I conceive the Free Trade has been the Ruin of the American Trade altogether.

They had ceased almost entirely to trade from Port to Port in India?

As far as my Observation goes, it has been so much reduced that it could not fail to appear evidently; and I have little Doubt that if the Trade were open to China it would ruin the American Trade completely.

State your Reasons for entertaining that Opinion?

The Advantage of the American over the English Trader is, that he can proceed unfettered to different Ports. I believe the Americans, during the Time I was in the Eastern Archipelago, were carrying away a good deal of the Dutch Commerce. It struck me, that if the English Free Trader were permitted to make Voyages from Port to Port in those Seas, they would derive those Advantages which were of course preserved to the Americans. My Opinion is grounded on the Competition that would be effected by the Free Trader being let loose against the Americans, which would of course prove injurious to their Commerce.

Do you think the Apprehension of losing these Advantages, which they had almost singly possessed before, has induced the Americans to relinquish any Part of the Trade in which they were before engaged?

The Trade from Port to Port. There are several Reasons, but they must be quite Matter of Opinion. I have communicated with a great many Americans, from a Desire to obtain Information. While cruising in India myself, I contemplated writing a Work on the Subject of The East India Company's general Establishments in India; and in communicating with many Americans, I frequently took the Opportunity of observing to them, that I perceived there was much fewer of their Shipping in those Seas than I had seen before. I was given to understand the Cause of it was, the Trade was less profitable, from the Competition induced by the English Free Trade. I should imagine it was not unlikely that much of the Capital was English Capital, which was employed, probably, in Foreign Bottoms. Until the Trade was open with India, that might have deprived them of the Means to a great Extent. I believe, if reference be had to the Failures that took place in America immediately after opening the Free Trade, it would be discovered something or other operated most violently indeed on American Com merce. I think, soon after the Free Trade was opened, Failures took place in America to an extraordinary Extent.

[605]

You laid before the Committee of the House of Commons a Statement of the Ships chartered by The East India Company in the Year 1826; have you got that Statement?

Yes, I have a Copy. If it is not precisely a Copy, it is a Calculation founded so nearly upon it as to be substantially the same. The first, as it appears, is a Copy of the Names of Ships and the Rates at which they are engaged; and here is a Statement also of the probable Saving by engaging the Tonnage at the Rate at which it might be had if a smaller Class of Ships were engaged.

The following Papers are delivered in by the Witness, and are read:

A STATEMENT, exhibiting the NAMES, NUMBER and TONNAGE of all Ships now chartered by The EAST INDIA COMPANY, of every Description; the Rates of Tonnage, and Number of Voyages for which they are engaged; and also the Names of the Owners of such Ships, and the Time or Date when they were engaged.

[606]

The Ships marked thus (A.) are entitled to an extra Freight of £1 10s. 0d. per Ton, if sent to the Island of Bombay or to the Continent of India, and from either of those Places to China.

East India House, 17th Jan. 1826.

In January 1826, by Papers laid before the Court of Proprietors, it appeared that The East India Company had engaged for Trade 47 Ships; viz. 24 for Six Voyages, some of which were hired as high as £26 10s. 0d. per Ton; others for Three Voyages; and only Five for One Voyage. The average Rate of Freight for such Five was only £13 6s. 0d. per Ton each.

There can be no Doubt, however, that Freight to almost any Amount might be had to and from China at the Rate of £10 10s. 0d. per Ton; and it is evident, if Freight were engaged at such Rate, a Saving of no less than £754,623 per Voyage might be effected in 64,498 Tons of Shipping.

Of the 24 Ships taken up at the highest Rate, and engaged for Six Voyages, several are in the Hands of One Managing Owner, some of whom have no less than Five; consequently little comparative Competition can be effected: while the Ships engaged for One Voyage at the lowest Rate are generally the Property and in the Management of numerous Individuals-hence the greater Competition and the more reasonable Rate of Freight at which they are obtained.

[607]

When you say something operated, at the Time of the Free Trade being opened, to occasion Bankruptcies, do you speak of English Capital embarked in the American Trade, and which was withdrawn in consequence of the Free Trade being opened?

Not expressly that, though I think that is fair; it is a Matter of Conjecture. I can only attribute it to what operated in the same Manner on the Free Trader too. When it was first thrown open, I believe the Competition was so great that it led to serious Distress among themselves; that was not a little augmented by the Mode in which the Company conducted the Trade at that Moment. I think, if Reference be had to the Company's Trade at that Time, when it was thrown open first, it will be seen they exported Commodities they never sent to India before; that they were making their best Efforts to intercept the Free Trader, which were not a little augmented, in the Manner I have suggested, by Competition with each other, the Free Traders, the Americans, and altogether. The Company sent out even Claret, an Article little adapted to the Speculation of a Body like The East India Company.

Had it been sent out before?

By Officers and Individuals; but there is a Difference between carrying a perishable Commodity in a Man's own Possession and a Company.

Refer to Page Twenty-eight of those Papers printed in 1829, and look at the Account, No. 15, of the Quantity of American Trade cleared out from the different Parts of British India from 1816 to 1826 and 1827, and state whether it does not appear that the American Tonnage, having amounted to 7,008 Tons in 1815-16, amounted to 15,145 in 1816-17; to 18,083 in 1817-18; and to 23,944 in 1818-19. The Effect which you say was produced on the American Trade to India, by opening the Trade, did not take place until Five Years after that Trade had been opened?

I do not see those Sums alluded to in this. I have spoken without reference to Dates. It is possible my Observation might have referred to the subsequent Period, in which there is that great Reduction. It is not probable that Commerce would change its Course in the Course of a Year or two; it is the natural Consequence; it will take a little Time before they will fall off. Bankruptcies would ensue, and it must find different Channels to get into. The Effect would not be simultaneous, certainly.

It appears from this Account, however, that the Competition in the India Trade did not effect the Reduction of the American Trade until the Year 1828, but gradually increased in the first Four Years in the Account?

It is possible the American Trade might have increased at those Periods, owing to our increased Territorial Possessions in India, which, of course, furnished more Markets for American Produce as well as English. While a great Spur was given to Commerce by the Arrival of the Free Trader, perhaps it operated in many Points which are difficult to explain, but which are easy to imagine.

Did not the Peace between this Country and the United States take place in 1815?

I believe it did, about that Period.

If, in the Year 1815, a Commercial Treaty was signed with the United States, which secured to them certain Privileges in the Indian Trade, would not that naturally have led them, for the first few Years after the Signature of this Commercial Treaty, to go extensively into that Trade so secured to them?

Undoubtedly.

May not, therefore, the Increase of the Years 1816, 1817, 1818 and 1819, be ascribed to that Circumstance?

I should think it might, in a very great degree. I was not aware of the Alteration in the Treaty.

From what Materials have you drawn up this Statement you have given in, of the Names and Number of Ships chartered in the Year 1826?

The Paper exhibiting the Names, Number and Tonnage of the Ships chartered in 1826, was a Document furnished to me, as a Proprietor of The East India Stock, by The East India Company at the India House.

[608]

That is official?

It is.

What is the Average Voyage of one of The East India Company's Ships from London to China and back, supposing a direct Voyage?

It is a difficult Question to answer well. A Free Trader, I conceive, might make the Voyage out and home in Twelve Months, and an East India Ship ought to be able to do every thing which a Free Trader can; but as they send them circuitously, and often let them lay here at different Parts of England, I have no Hesitation in saying, that if I turned Trader, and understood it, I would find the Means of carrying out a Cargo, if I were permitted, to China; if the Company carried on their Trade in the Mode they do now, before they get to Bombay I would be at China, from the Delay in their Mode of transacting Business. I can best illustrate it by saying that a Captain of an East Indiaman told me he gave up commanding one of their Ships because he could trade more conveniently by the Free Trader, and pay for Freight; "for," said he, before I get my Investment out, I am anticipated at Sincapore by the Free Trader; they have supplied the Market; and in the Company's Ship I lose my Chance, from the Delay occasioned by going to this Place and the other."

Does that apply to the Company's Ships bound direct from hence to China?

The direct Ships that go from hence to China touch either at St. Helena or Madras; I don't believe any go direct from England without touching at some Port; I imagine they touch somewhere.

You don't know what length of Time it does take to effect a Voyage in one of the Company's Ships from England to China and back, without touching?

No, I can't precisely answer the Question.

Do you consider the Delays you allude to are inherent in the System in which the Company carry on Trade to China, or are they Delays that must be obviated by the Company itself?

They determine that their Ships shall be at such an Anchorage at such a Time, and proceed very mechanically to work with them. They are to be in the Downs at such a Period, and to sail by those Periods; but the Consequence must be apparent, when I advert to what happened during the Burmese War. To the best of my Recollection, Stores were required to be taken to India, and were about to be sent out by some of the Ships then sailing. It occurred to me that those Stores required the utmost Expedition possible. The Recollection occurred how insufficient those Ships were for such Purpose, sailing at stated Periods, while there were plenty of Free Traders ready to sail, who could take them on board at an Hour's Notice; and if Military Stores were imperiously wanted, I put it to any one, whether it would not have been not only more economical but more advantageous to have sent them at once than by this tardy Process.

Does Part of the Delay arise from the Size of the Ships they engage?

A great Part of the Delay in lading a Ship in a River must depend on the Size; that is, in Calcutta a large Ship would only advance as far as Sawger, while a Ship of small Size would proceed to discharge her Cargo at Calcutta, and take in a fresh one. It is evident the Communication by Boats must create considerable Delay.

Do you conceive that if the Private Trader were permitted to trade to the Port of Canton, he would find it his Interest to proceed directly to Canton, without touching at any Place, as the Company's Ships do?

It would not be to the Interest of an Individual to make the Voyage direct. A Man who sets out on a speculative Voyage would do as the Americans do, go from this Port to the other, until he can get a Cargo to suit, and perhaps they change Cargo Two or Three Times; that would perhaps be the most beneficial Voyage to him as a Merchant, but it would also be a desirable Voyage, as far as the State is concerned, in exciting Enterprize and making good Sailors.

Did you ever know any Indiaman armed with his heavy Guns, as you have spoken of, Eighteen-pounders?

I have seen some with Twelve and Eighteen-pounders, a few Eighteen.

[609]

You have stated One Indiaman was taken by a Privateer having Eighteen Guns?

Sixteen or Eighteen.

Do you think an Indiaman, manned and armed as they are, could make an effectual Defence against any Man-of-War of the smallest Size?

If it blew hard, an Indiaman of 1,300 Tons might run a small Man-of-War down.

But if there were a fair Fight between the Two?

It is a difficult Question to answer with Accuracy. I imagine a Ship or Privateer of Twenty Guns would seek to engage One Indiaman.

And when well managed and when well fought, ought to take her?

I think she would take her.

In Time of War do the Company's Ships sail with Convoy or not?

With Convoy wherever Convoy can be had.

If an adequate Convoy were supplied to them, this expensive Armament would not be necessary?

Undoubtedly not.

Do they ever venture to run alone in Time of War?

Yes, frequently; but, perhaps, to meet the Question in the broadest Shape, it would be worth while to refer to what would be the Insurance at Lloyd's on Ships sailing; I am not aware what it would be, but the Committee would see the comparative Profit or Loss, in a Commercial Point of View, by what the Underwriters would insure a Company's Ship, or any other, in Time of War. I don't imagine it would make a great Difference.

Do they sail better than ordinary Merchantmen?

Why, most of the Company's large Ships are certainly good Sailers, very fine Ships; and they ought to be very fine Ships, for they are very expensive ones; but there may be found among Merchants many good sailing Ships, and some bad ones. I have seen some of the Indiamen sail as bad and as well.

Is the building of a Chinaman like the building of a Man-of-War, or principally adapted for carrying a Cargo?

By no means. In the building of a Man-of-War, she is expressly adapted for Guns and War; they have Guns and Portholes also, but her Bottom is widely different in the Shape as well as the general Construction. The Indiaman is not particularly well adapted for War; they are all able to have Guns aboard, but they are not adapted for fast sailing.

She would not be able to run away from a Man-of-War?

Unless the Man-of-War was a bad Sailer; a Man-of-War ought to catch her upon a Wind or free or any Way.

Is there any Disadvantage in having those large Ships so occupied in Time of Peace?

I can't conceive any.

If it is advisable to have that Class of Ships in Time of War, are they retained for Use in Time of Peace merely because they have been employed before?

I conclude that is the principal Cause; and also, if you refer to their being taken up Six Voyages, you can't get rid of them 'till they have run Six Voyages out; and next, it would appear hard to induce a Man to build a Ship inapplicable to other Commerce, unless you continue to employ her 'till she is worn out. Generally there is a Desire to build such a Ship of that Class; knowing they are paid a high degree of Freight for them, the Owners secure, under certain Circumstances, Permission to build again on the Keel; or, if the Ship is lost, there is a Clause in the Act enabling them to build another to run the Remainder of the Period.

So the Practice of having Vessels of that Size and of that Construction in Time of War necessarily involves a corresponding Expence in Time of Peace that otherwise would be useless?

Clearly so.

[610]

That is only until the Expiration of the existing Contract; at the End of Six Years all the Ships must have run out?

No, not at the End of Six Years-Six Voyages.

Have the Company made no new Contracts with Ships of that large Tonnage in Time of Peace?

Yes, constantly; and they are doing it to this Hour, I suppose.

With what View?

Mostly, probably, to the Continuance of their Commerce.

As these large Ships are useless in Time of Peace, and as it appears by your Evidence smaller Ships would be more convenient, to what do you attribute The East India Company having persevered in the Time of Peace, when they are not compelled to do so, contracting for the Construction of these very large Ships?

I can't understand, unless it is a Predilection they have for large Ships, with the Particulars of which I am unacquainted. They have a common Partiality for that Class of Ships; and they have, in effect, shewn, not only Partiality for it, but conferred Advantages on Owners and Officers of those Ships, which are inconceivable. I shall illustrate that by saying, that The East India Company, by their Regulations, give the Owners of these Ships the Power of conferring Military Rank on the Commanders, and they give the Commanders of these regular Ships a Precedence with Captains of Marines, by which they give them a Rank equal with that of Lieutenant Colonels in the Army. If the Owner of a Ship is building a Ship for the Company, and letting it, he has the Means of conferring Military Rank on the Person commanding, whatever his Age or Standing is, if he is eligible to command, which he is after having served so many Voyages.

Military Rank in India?

Yes; perhaps I may explain that last Piece of Evidence; I mean Precedence. I don't know whether I ought to apply "Rank" to it; I mean Precedence.

What sized Ships on the whole do you think it would be most advantageous to carry on the Commerce with?

I think 500 or 600 Tons would be sufficient to carry on the Commerce with the whole Globe.

Is that the Size used generally by the Free Traders?

Yes. As a Reason for stating a Ship of 500 or 600 Tons is sufficiently large, and best adapted to carry on Trade with any Part of the World, I should mention she is a Block of infinitely less Value than a larger one; consequently, a Man of small Capital can fit out such a Ship, while the Possession of the large Ship would be confined to fewer. At the same Time, it would be easier to load a small Ship at all Times than a large one. A Cargo might be had for a small Vessel when a full Quantity could not for a large Ship.

You think there is no particular Reason attached to the Trade in Tea at China, which renders it more desirable to have Ships of a larger Size?

I am not aware of any, except the Advantage derived from the Port Dues at Canton; if it were a very considerable Advantage, the Americans would have followed the Example, and have taken larger ones.

There is no greater Danger of Breakage of Chests of Tea in a small Vessel than a large one?

I imagine not, if the Ship is good, and properly taken care of.

Do you know the Average Size of Vessels that trade to Canton?

I only speak from Fact; I have not been at Canton. I suppose an American Ship is generally of a smaller Class - from 400 to 600 or 700 Tons. It is a large Ship for an American, 600 or 700 Tons.

How do the Americans conduct their Voyage with the Ports between America and China that they visit?

That would be a difficult Thing to say; they are in the habit of making the most circuitous Voyages of any Traders in the World occasionally.

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Do you not conceive that the System which is now pursued by The East India Company, both in their Mode of building and the fitting out of their Ships, as forming a valuable Part of their Power and Patronage?

Undoubtedly.

How is that, if they take Ships by Tender only?

The Ships built for The East India Company themselves, called the Company's own Ships, constitute Employment for a certain Number of Captains and Officers, the Employments for whom are in the Gift of the Court of Directors; and that becomes direct and positive Patronage.

How many of these Ships are there?

Seven, I think; there were Seven when that Return was made.

As regards the others, which form the greater Number, is there any Patronage exercised in the hiring of them?

There is One Piece of Patronage, the Value of which I cannot pretend to state, which is the Gift of the Voyage. The Directors individually have the Nomination to certain Voyages. I speak from Hearsay. The Gift of a China Voyage is always considered a very good Thing. Many Years ago it was a very large Advantage.

To whom is it a good Thing?

To the Captain; the Gift of the Voyage to the Captain. The Nomination of the Voyage to the Ship is the Patronage I advert to.

There is no Patronage to the Person who furnishes the Ship?

The Person who furnishes the Ship has the Patronage of appointing the Commander to the Ship, ab origine; the Voyage afterwards is the Patronage of the Court of Directors; that is, the Nomination to the Voyage. The Person is originally appointed by the Owner, with the Concurrence of the Company; probably the Captain is a Part Owner of the Ship in many Cases. The Patronage I alluded to of the Court was the Nomination to the Voyages - the Destination of the Ship.

After it is taken up for a certain Number of Voyages?

The different Number of Voyages.

When they do take up Ships, don't they state for what Purpose they are to be employed?

I apprehend the Charterparties are pretty general, and not to particular Voyages. I suppose, by the Form of the Charterparty, they can employ it to any Port they chuse.

When a Ship is taken up at a certain Rate of Freight for Six Voyages, what is the Condition which the Person who lets that Ship to the Company takes upon himself; is he obliged, at so much a Year, or at so much for the Outward and Homeward Voyage, to furnish that Ship?

I believe it is at so much per Ton per Voyage. This is a Fact well known; though I can't speak from more than a general Knowledge of the Fact, never having had a Ship of my own. They take up Ships, I believe, at so many Pounds per Ton per Voyage; being entitled to the Demurrage under particular Circumstances; that is, such as the present Detention at China. I suppose the Owner is deriving Demurrage for the whole Period his Ship is detained.

The East India Company having taken up the Ships at Eighteen Guineas a Ton, does it entirely rest with the Company whether they shall go to India and then Home, or go to China direct, or make a circuitous Voyage to China; does the Rate of Freight remain the same whatever the Voyage is?

No; for as the Ships are taken up, almost all are numbered. In that List there are Stars placed against the Ships which are entitled to £1 10s. more if they are sent to Ports in India. At the Conclusion of the List it specifies that.

So that it is an Advantage to the Owner of a Ship that it shall be sent to China rather than to India?

I don't know that the Owner has any particular Advantage in it; I don't know that it is of Importance to him where it is sent to.

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The Advantage is to the Captain?

The Advantage of the Voyage must be to the Captain important.

From your Knowledge of the Bombay Marine, are you of opinion that it is absolutely necessary that the Service should be performed by a Marine at the Disposal of the Local Governments, or might it not be performed by Ships in The King's Service?

Undoubtedly His Majesty's Ships are equal to perform any Duty the British Government can impose on them; whether it would be conducive to the Convenience of the Government in India that they should be left to perform their Duty as they thought proper, or as the Government wished, I leave the Committee to determine.

What, in your Opinion, are the peculiar Advantages in having a Marine at the entire Disposal of the Local Governments, if the Bombay Marine is now sufficient?

Government is constantly in want of Vessels of War; and unless some are at their Disposal, they must be very often reduced to considerable Difficulty. I think it will illustrate the Fact by shewing that in the Year 1813, when a Dispute was likely to take place with The Emperor of Ava, the Government sent a TwentyGun Ship from Calcutta at their Disposal, and possibly averted a War which must have resulted had they had no Vessel of Force to have overawed the Burmese.

Could not all the Service performed by the Bombay Marine be performed by The King's Ships in India, as similar Services are performed in The King's Colonies and elsewhere?

Undoubtedly, if they are placed sufficiently under the Authority of Government, or at the Disposal of Government; if Government possesses sufficient Authority to send them where they think needful.

Can you form an Estimate of the comparative Cost of a King's Ship and a Company's Ship of the Bombay Marine?

No, I have no Means of forming a correct Estimate; and to take the Expence of the Bombay Marine from the Amount carried to the Debit of the Marine under the common Head of Marine Charges of India, would be an erroneous Mode of estimating the actual Expence of particular Ships; for, I believe, under the Head of Marine Charges are lumped a great many other Charges, which might make it appear a very small Force was retained at an enormous Expence. I individually believe, from my Knowledge of the Mode of Outfit, that they are generally conducted very economically.

More so than The King's Ships?

I can't speak to the Fact. I have no actual Experience of the Expence of one of His Majesty's Ships; I have no Hesitation in saying they are usually comparatively much cheaper than the Company's Merchant Ships. Of course a Ship with a great Number of Men must be, in point of Comparison as to Size, more expensive. But looking at one as a Man-of-War, and at another as a Merchantman, they are infinitely cheaper.

What Proportion of the Crews consisted of Natives of the East at the Time you were acquainted with the Marine?

It has been in different Ships in different Numbers. I have commanded a Twenty-Gun Ship belonging to the Company, in which we had not about Twenty Natives, all the rest were Europeans. Much depends on the Exertions of the Commander himself, who would endeavour to procure a Crew; for the Government furnished you with no Means, neither furnished you with Men, nor were there Men provided from this Country for manning the Marine. It more particularly depends on the Exertions of the Commander to pick up a Crew; they were generally a motley Set of Europeans and Natives, and such as they could collect.

Where did he find them?

You send to Crimps in Public Houses at Periods; and when it was inquired if any Men were to be had, I gave the Crimp an Allowance; he is usually called the Crimp; he brought you Men where he could.

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Of what Description; did you get the worst Description of Men out of Vessels of all Nations?

Not the worst, but, speaking of them as a Crew of a Man-of-War, an inferior Crew. Not the worst of all Nations; occasionally there are very good Men. I have commanded a Ship out of Bengal remarkably well manned; but it proceeded from the Circumstance of a great many English Seamen being to be found in Bengal unemployed. I had little Difficulty there, but it was great at Bombay.

Have not the Company sent out Seamen from this Country?

Not in my Recollection Seamen; they have sent out Marine Boys, perhaps Lads from the Marine Society. I don't recollect during my Time their sending out Men.

In any Number?

Yes; at One Time they sent out a few Hundreds of them, but afterwards they desisted; in fact, there was no System adopted for manning the Marine, during the whole Time I was in it, by either of the Governments; at least, it was under the Efforts of the Commander himself.

Were the Native Sailors all Malabars?

No.

What was your whole Complement of your Ship of Twenty Guns?

The Malabar had about 140 Men on board.

What was the Extent of the Bombay Marine, and what was its Force, when you were in command?

At different Times, I was in it Twenty-five Years, sometimes more and sometimes less. Latterly it has been so small as to be insignificant.

In War Time?

We had at One Period a Fifty-Gun Frigate, another of Thirtytwo Guns, and a Twenty-Gun Ship, and some smaller Vessels; but during the last few Years of my Service they had no Frigate at all. It was most insignificant as a Naval Service, from the Inefficiency and Neglect that was shewn; it was neither provided with a Code of Laws, nor with Men.

That Twenty-Gun Ship was your own?

Belonging to the Government; I commanded her.

Had you an Opportunity to try your Men in Action?

Yes; not in that Ship; I was in the Expedition to Java, but they did not come into Action. I have on other Occasions been in Action; the Crews have generally behaved remarkably well; but the Composition of the Men, speaking of them as Men of War, is very inferior.

And you had the Means of enforcing Dicipline, but it was not very good?

Much would depend on your own judicious Management. You are furnished with no legitimate Authority. There was a System of Discipline preserved with much Pain and Difficulty, and in many Cases it answered tolerably well; but it more particularly hinged on the Management of the Commander himself.

It is a Service in which Promotion is extremely slow?

Very.

It offers very few Inducements for a Gentleman to enter it?

Very few, indeed.

The Arabs are very efficient Seamen, are they not?

They are very muscular, strong, hardy Men; but I can't say that they could bear any Comparison with an English Sailor; they are some of them remarkably muscular and strong, equal with the European; but that is not the Composition of the Native Crews; they are Natives of India, Mohamedans.

Which are the best Seamen of that Country?

The Gogorees, from a small Place in the Gulf of Cambay; they are the best Native Sailors.

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Are they good Seamen between the Coast of Malabar and the Red Sea in Arabia?

They have large Ships. Speaking of Arabs, we should say, at all Times, they were very lubberly; they are brave and hardy, and would fight very well, but without Organization; that sort of fighting which would result from Bravery without Discipline. I should not call them good Seamen.

What Number of Native Seamen could you venture to put on board a Man-of-War, without diminishing her Efficiency as a fighting Vessel?

I would not wish to have more than would man a Couple of Boats; they are less likely to drink, and give you Trouble by getting drunk on Shore, than the English. I contrived to have a Couple of Boats Crew; and, having so few, I contrive to get very good Men. I should be sorry to command a Cruizer with a large Proportion of Natives on board. If opposed to an European Enemy, I would prefer my own Countrymen.

Is not the Heat so extreme in the Gulf of Persia as to make it necessary to have the Natives to perform the ordinary Duties on Deck?

I can't conceive it imperatively necessary to have the Natives to perform the ordinary Duties on Deck. Our Soldiers have their Duty to perform in India: it is more irksome to perform the Duty of a common Soldier on Shore than it is for a Sailor.

Have you ever turned your Attention to any Improvements it would be possible to introduce into the Bombay Marine?

Yes; I submitted to the Court of Directors, when I first returned from India, some Plan for improving the Corps; but I ceased to turn my Attention to it. Finding such a Variety of Difficulties to be got over, which I saw no Prospect of surmounting, I gave it up.

Can you state the Outline of that Plan?

I think I have a Copy of some Part of the Plan, which I can submit; it is not with me at present.

Though you have not been in China, you have had an Opportunity of seeing a good deal of the Chinese in the Eastern Islands?

Yes; and I have met with them there when I was at the Eastern Archipelago.

Do you find them generally superior to the Inhabitants of the East in Habits of Commercial Enterprize and Activity?

Taking them as Artificers, they are undoubtedly very superior, and their Merchants are not inferior in Ability; there will be found, among many of the Natives of India, Men gifted both as Merchants, and in every Way quite to be compared with the Merchants of every other Country. The Chinese are distinguished as Merchants as well as Artificers.

Were you ever in the Red Sea?

Yes, Three Times.

Would there be any Difficulty in navigating Steam Boats?

Not any.

Do you find a Difficulty in navigating it in a Sailing Vessel?

No, not any.

All the Dangers were laid down, and above Water?

The principal Difficulty that occurred was, the Want of accurate Charts, which is now compensated in some Measure. I was in the Red Sea on a Survey myself; many Ships were lost in the Expedition, but it was owing to the Sea abounding with Shoals, and having no good Chart to guide them.

They are very well laid down at present?

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I can't say the Red Sea is, as far as my Knowledge went, for we were on a Survey for a short Time, unless some accurate Survey has taken place since; it abounds with Shoals; but the direct Navigation for Ships is clear, and extensive enough; so that a Ship with a good Chronometer has Plenty of Room. Indeed a Man must be an inferior Navigator who could not contrive to get up and down under ordinary Circumstances safely.

The Gales are not very severe in other Parts of the Red Sea?

They blow hard for a short Time, but they seldom last long; they blow hard for a short Period.

What prevented you completing your Survey?

I accompanied Lord Valentia in 1813, and commanded a small Vessel. He was in the larger one. The Vessel I commanded was found to be excessively rotten - not seaworthy. It was condemned at Mocha, and I returned to Bombay; he went on, and landed at Suez. It was a cursory Survey. The Court of Directors appointed me to survey the Red Sea; but Government never had their Orders carried into Execution.

They were sent to Bombay?

They were sent, through the Government at Bengal, to Bombay, but never were acted upon.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned 'till To-morrow One o'Clock.