House of Lords Journal Volume 10: 9 November 1648

DIE Jovis, 9 die Novembris.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Warde.

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Witchingham, a Pass.

Ordered, That Mr. Witchingham shall have a Pass, to go to the Isle of Wight.

Duppa's Cause.

Ordered, That the Proceedings in the Cause of Duppa shall be stayed in the Exchequer, until the Cause be heard in this House.

Letter, &c. from the Commissioners.

A Letter this Day from the Commissioners in the Isle of Wight, (fn. 1) with the Papers inclosed, were read. (Here enter them.)

Message to the H. C. about the Vote concerning the Treaty.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Eltonheade and

To put them in Mind of the Names of the Seven Persons, Delinquents, to be excepted from Pardon; and also of the Votes in Answer to the King's Four Propositions.

Compton to come Home.

Ordered, That Mr. Compton shall be permitted to come out of France, into England.

Felton and Stent, a Pass.

Ordered, That Colonel Thomas Felton and Captain John Stent shall have a Pass, to go into France, with Two Servants.

E. Rivers and Green.

Upon Consideration of the Petition of the Earl of Rivers, presented to this House Yesterday, claiming his Privilege of Parliament, against a Suit in Chancery commenced by Mr. Greene:

It is Ordered, That the said Earl of Rivers shall enjoy his Privilege of Parliament, as a Peer of this Realm; and that all Proceedings in Chancery against him shall be stayed, and no Attachment to be issued out against him: And it is further Ordered, That if the said Mr. Greene will exhibit his Petition to this House, then their Lordships (fn. 2) will hear the Business in this House.

Whitchurch versus Daniel L. Craven's Servant.

Upon reading the Petition of Anthony Whitchurch; shewing, "That he hath recovered, against Henry Daniell, Five Hundred and odd Pounds, for Damages, who, being in actual Arms against the Parliament, plundered the Petitioner of Goods to the Value of above Four Hundred Pounds, for which he recovered as aforesaid the Sum of Five Hundred and odd Pounds; and the said Daniell, being in Execution, and so hath been a whole Year, at the Petitioner's Suit, upon the said Recovery or Judgement, endeavours to be discharged by this House, pretending himself to be a menial Servant of the Lord Craven; the which if obtained, the Petitioner is utterly ruined: Therefore it is desired, that the said Daniell may not be discharged out of Execution, until he hath satisfied the Petitioner's Debt:"

It is Ordered hereupon, That the Order for the Habeas Corpus is hereby revoked; and the said Daniell to remain in the same State and Condition he was in before the Order of this House.

Letter from the Commissioners with the King, with the following Papers.

"For the Right Honourable the Earl of Manchester, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore. These.

"My Lord,

"Upon Receipt of yours of the 4th Instant, we have, according to your Directions, acquainted His Majesty with the Votes and Resolutions then sent unto us; and have agreed amongst ourselves concerning such of our Number that are to attend the Houses; and by them we do send your Lordship our Proceedings upon the Proposition concerning the Church, and other Papers; and shall pursue the Instructions we have lately received; and give you an Account thereof from Time to Time, as there shall be Occasion. And so we rest

Newport, 6 Nov. 1648.

"Your Lordship's

"Humble Servants,

"Northumberland.
Middlesex.
"Salisbury.
Wm. Say & Seale."

** The King's Paper, declaring, that He hath not Time to make His Exceptions.

"CHARLES R.

"In Answer to your Paper of the 3d of November, delivered late last Night, wherein you desire His Majesty to express His Exceptions to several Ordinances mentioned in your Proposition concerning the Church: His Majesty saith, That those Ordinances being many and large, and finding that after this Day you can receive no more Papers without further Instructions, His Majesty conceives Himself so limited in Time, that He cannot so suddenly give you His particular Exceptions to the said Ordinances.

"Newport, the 4th of November, 1648.

"Ex'r,

** The King's Paper, desiring to know whether they have received any Instructions concerning his Propositions.

"CHARLES R.

"His Majesty's Propositions, delivered unto you the 17th of October, 1648, having been transmitted by you to His Two Houses, and His Majesty having received no Answer thereunto; He desires to know whether you have yet received any Instructions concerning the same.

"Newport, the 4th of Nov. 1648."

"Newport, 4 Novembr. 1648.

"Whereas we, by our Paper of the Third Instant, desired Your Majesty to express Your particular Exceptions to the Ordinances mentioned and contained in the Proposition concerning the Church; unto which Your Majesty, by Your Answer thereunto this 4th Instant, is pleased to say, "That those Ordinances being many and large, and that after this Day we can receive no more Papers without further Instructions, and therefore conceive yourself so limited in Time, that Your Majesty cannot so suddenly give Your particular Exceptions to the said Ordinances;" we humbly conceive, that those Ordinances having been many Days since the Beginning of the Treaty in Your Majesty's Hands, and under Your Majesty's Consideration, the same cannot be new unto Your Majesty; and therefore we again humbly desire Your Majesty to express Your particular Exceptions to the said Ordinances, as by our said Paper of the Third Instant we have formerly desired.

"Ex'r,

** The King's final Answer.

"CHARLES R.

"For a final Answer to you, as to your Paper of the 4th of this Instant, whereby you do again desire His Majesty to express His particular Exceptions to the Ordinances mentioned in the Proposition concerning the Church; His Majesty saith, That, by His Answer of the 9th of October, He did express the general Reasons why He could not consent to the several Ordinances in the Form they are now penned; and that He heard no more thereof until He received your Paper late in the Evening last Night; so that, though these Ordinances have been many Days in His Majesty's Hands, and are not new to Him, yet, this being the last Day wherein you by your Instructions can receive any Papers from Him, His Majesty cannot in so short Time review the several Ordinances, and state the particular Exceptions thereunto; and therefore He adheres to His former Answer therein.

"Newport, the 4th of Nov. 1648.

"Ex.

"Newport, 4 Novembr. 1648.

"In Answer to Your Majesty's Paper delivered in unto us this 4th of November Instant, whereby Your Majesty desires to know whether we have received any Instructions concerning Your Majesty's Propositions transmitted by us to both Houses of Parliament; we humbly say, That we have not yet received any Instructions concerning the same.

"Ex'r,

** The King's last Paper, in Answer to the Business of the Church.

"CHARLES R.

"For a final Answer to your Paper of the First of this Instant, and the Votes therein mentioned concerning the Church; His Majesty saith,

"That His Concessions intended by His former Answer were larger than are expressed in that Paper, and misapprehended in these Particulars following; (videlicet,) He neither did nor doth intend to make any new Bishops during the Term of Three Years, nor in the End of Three Years that the Power of Ordination should be practiced in the old Manner as formerly; for that heretofore the Bishops were at Liberty to call what Presbyters they would to assist in Ordinations, but were not bound to their Counsel or Consent: But His Majesty doth now intend, and will consent, that Bishops shall not receive any into Holy Orders without the Consent of a limited Number of Presbyters, to be chosen in such Manner as shall be agreed on by His Majesty and His Two Houses for that Purpose: Neither did His Majesty intend that, after the End of Three Years, no certain Way should be settled concerning Ecclesiastical Discipline and Government; for that His Majesty did propose, during the Three Years, to have a Consultation with the Assembly of Divines, Twenty being added of His own Nomination; which if His Two Houses shall resolve to entertain, it cannot well be doubted but, upon their (fn. 3) Debate, such a Government will be agreed upon by His Majesty and His Two Houses as shall be best for the Peace of the Church, and most proper to prevent those Distractions which His Two Houses apprehend may ensue.

"As to that Part of the Proposition concerning the Book of Common Prayer; for the Satisfaction of his Two Houses, His Majesty will not insist upon any Provision for the Continuance of the same in His Majesty's Chapel, for Himself and His Household; nevertheless, His Majesty declares that He intendeth to use some other set Form of Divine Service.

"And as to that Part of the Proposition, "That an Act or Acts be passed, for a stricter Course to prevent the saying or hearing of Mass in the Court, or any other Part of this Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Ireland;" His Majesty will consent thereunto.

"As to all other Particulars in your Paper mentioned; His Majesty having in His former Answers consented so far as possibly He can, as He stands at present persuaded in His Judgement, doth refer Himself thereunto: And since His Majesty, by His Concessions, hath brought all Differences concerning the Church into so narrow a Compass, that the chief visible Obstruction is that wherein really in Conscience He is not satisfied, He hopes His Two Houses will not put further Pressures of so tender a Nature upon Him, when it is most likely that Time and Debate will happily reconcile all these Differences.

"Newport, the 4th November, 1648.

"Ex'r,

"Newport, 4 Novembr. 1648.

"Having received Your Majesty's final Answers to our Paper of the First of this Instant concerning the Church, and likewise to our Paper of the 4th of this Instant touching Your Majesty's particular Exceptions to the Ordinances concerning the Church; we shall communicate them to both Houses of Parliament.

"Ex'r,