Appendix: poor laws, 15 March 1831

Die Martis, 15° Martii 1831.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

The Reverend Francis Joseph Faithful is called in, and examined as follows:

You are the Clergyman of the Parish of Hatfield?

I am.

How long have you been so?

Since the Year 1812.

Do you act as a Magistrate for the County of Hertford?

I do.

Have you attended to the Administration of the Poor Laws in that Parish?

I have.

Do you recollect the State of the Parish about the Year 1819?

I do.

Can you state what the Rates were at that Time?

They varied at that Time from Six Rates to Eight Rates in the Year - Shilling Rates.

At what Valuation?

At Three Fifths of the Valuation.

Was that an old Valuation?

A Valuation made in the Year 1808.

Has any Alteration been introduced into their Management?

An entire Alteration was made in that Year.

Can you state what has been the Difference between the Rates for the last Ten Years and the previous Ten Years?

About 14,000l. in the Ten Years.

Were there many Persons out of Employment at the Time of the Alteration?

A great many.

Can you state the principal Measures which were taken to introduce this Alteration in the Administration of the Law?

I think the most effectual was denying Relief to all Persons out of the Workhouse.

Will you state the principal Regulations under which the Law is administered?

The principal one was, that no Pension or permanent Allowance shall be granted to any Person except in case of Sickness. It was previously the Custom to allow Weekly Relief to Widows and to aged Persons out of the House.

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Was it also the Practice to give Relief to Persons on account of the Number of their Families?

Yes, it was.

Has that since been forbidden?

It has.

Under what Conditions can Persons now receive Relief for the Number of their Family?

The Parish will receive One or Two of the Children into the House as an Assistance to them.

Has that, in point of fact, often occurred?

Not in any instance with any large Families. In the Case of Widows it has sometimes occurred, but not in any Case where the Father and Mother had both been living. I would add, that in consequence of that Regulation the permanent Relief, which in the Year 1818 amounted to 1,100l. is now reduced to below 300l. in the Year.

Will you have the goodness to read the Regulations relating to the Administration of Relief to the Poor?

"No Pension or permanent Allowance shall be granted henceforth to any Person out of the Workhouse. All Persons who shall have been established as Pensioners before the Commencement of this System shall attend at the first Meetings of the Select Vestry next after Michaelmas and Lady Days. All Pensioners who shall not attend, or who shall not give a reasonable Excuse for Nonattendance, shall forfeit their Pension. The Workhouse shall be made sufficient to receive all Persons whom the Select Vestry shall deem fit Objects for Admission. No Relief shall be given to any Person on account of the Number of his or her Family, except by the Admission of One or more of the Children, as may seem fit to the Select Vestry, into the Workhouse. No Relief shall be granted to any Person residing beyond the Limits of the Attendance of the Parish Apothecary who shall not bring or send a Certificate of his or her Illness, signed by the Churchwarden or Overseer of the Place where he or she reside, or by a respectable Medical Man in the Neighbourhood. All Relief shall be given in Provisions or Necessaries, except by especial Order of the Select Vestry, when the Reason of their Order shall be entered in their Minutes. Relief out of the Workhouse shall be given only in Cases of Sickness and Infirmity, with the following Exceptions: When the Child of a Parishioner has been placed in Service out of the Parish, and is approved of by his Master, he may be clothed at the Expence of the Parish in such Manner as the Select Vestry may deem fit: Any Sum not exceeding Five Shillings, in Provisions or Necessaries, may be given to Women in their Confinement, in lieu of providing a Midwife, when the Select Vestry may deem it necessary: Compensation, at the Discretion of the Select Vestry, may be made to Persons attending others in Sickness: The Expences of Funerals may be defrayed by the Parish: Widows or Families may, at the Discretion of the Select Vestry, receive Relief out of the Workhouse for One Month after the Death of the Master of the Family, but no longer. Every Case of Application for Relief, whether granted or refused, shall be entered into the Vestry Book, with the Cause of such Application. A List shall be made out annually of all Persons who have received Parish Relief, stating their Residence and the Amount which they have each of them received, and Copies shall be affixed to the Church Doors in large and legible Characters on the Sunday immediately after the passing of the Annual Accounts. The Family of a Person sent to Gaol for any Crime or Misdemeanor, or under Suspicion of the same, shall not be relieved except by Admission into the Workhouse."

Was there any Difficulty in rendering the Workhouse sufficient for the Purposes?

No, there was not.

Do you, as far as you have seen other Workhouses, believe that it would be impossible to introduce nearly the same System generally?

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I should think the same System might be introduced very well. In fact it has been adopted in several Parishes within the last few Years. In the Parish of Welwyn they have lately built a Poorhouse, and have adopted the same System.

Would the Erection of a Poorhouse be an Objection in small or poor Parishes?

Not where they unite.

Are any Parishes united with you at Hatfield?

No; that is a very large Parish; but the adjoining Parishes of Little Berkhamstead, Bayford and Hartingford Bury have united.

Do you consider the same System as applicable to Country Parishes as it is to Towns?

Yes, I should think it was.

Do you consider Hatfield a Country Parish?

A Country Parish decidedly. The Town is a very small Part of the Parish.

Of what Acres does the Parish consist?

14,000 Acres.

What was the Population according to the last Return?

3,216.

Is not a considerable Portion of the Parish in Woodland?

There are some very large Woodlands. I should think, on a rough Calculation, 4,000 Acres of Wood, exclusive of the Park of Hatfield House.

With regard to the Distribution of Lodging Rooms in the Workhouse, has any Part of the Workhouse been assimilated very much to Barracks?

The Rooms for the Men and for the Boys have been.

Do you conceive that a great deal of Room is gained by that Arrangement?

Certainly.

How is the Workhouse divided?

Into Women's Rooms, Men's Rooms and Children's Rooms, and Rooms for the Sick.

Are they divided also in the Day Rooms?

They are all divided in the Day Rooms.

Will you have the goodness to put in the Form of Accounts which is kept in the Parish.

The Witness delivers in the same, which is read, and is as follows:

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Have you heard of any Difficulty in the Management of the Poor in the Workhouse?

Not any.

Can you state the usual Number there have been for the last Year?

They average about 110.

Do they earn any thing towards their Support?

The Children all earn sufficient for their Support, and the old Men upon the Roads.

Can you, from the Account before you, state what the Earnings in the Workhouse were the last Three Years?

In the Year ending March 1829 they were 182l. 10s.; in the Year ending March 1830 they were 90l. 9s.; and in the present Year ending 1831, 188l. 13s. 7d.

Can you state what was the Total Expence in the Workhouse during those Three Years?

The Account is not made up to March 1831. In the Year ending March 1829 it was 966l. 14s. 9¼d.; in the Year ending March 1830, 938l. 9s. 9d.

Can you state the Average Expence per Week for each Person?

About 3s. 1d. or 3s. 2d. including their Food and Clothing.

Does that include the Firing and other Expences of the House?

It includes every Expence of the House.

Is that the Average of Men, Women and Children?

Yes.

Can you put in the Diet Table in the Workhouse?

I can.

The Witness delivers in the same, which is read, and is as follows:

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Diet Table of Hatfield Poorhouse for each Meal throughout the Week.

N.B.-Persons superintending washing and cleaning the House, with those who are very old and infirm, are allowed Ale - Men a Pint, and Women Half a Pint; the other Persons have a Pint of Table Beer per Diem.

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In Practice is the Allowance you have stated found sufficient for their Wants?

Quite sufficient; though perhaps I ought to state they are not confined to that Allowance: at their Dinner, in point of Meat, they are allowed always to eat as much as they like.

Do they ever exceed the Allowance?

I should think that many of them do; but upon the Average it is not exceeded; they are never restricted, they are allowed to eat as much as they like. The Provision is made according to this Rate; but in the Number there are a great many who do not eat the Quantity: we find that, on the Average, quite sufficient for them all.

Is there generally a good deal left?

There is.

In that Expence is the Board of the Master of the Workhouse and his Family included?

It is included at the Expence of 3s. 1d. per Head; the Master and his Wife and Family are included in that.

You mean that you allow 3s. 1d. for their Maintenance?

Yes; the whole Number is taken.

Do they board with the others?

No, they do not; they live differently; they live better, certainly.

You have stated that in the Year ending March 1830 the Earnings were much smaller than the Two other Years you have mentioned; can you state from what Cause that arose?

In consequence of the Silk Work being stopped.

Will you state the Nature of the Silk Work?

The Children are merely employed to superintend the winding of the Silk from the Skein on the Bobbin, and to attend in tying it when it is broken.

How is that Manufacture carried on; by whom?

By Mr. Woollam, who is the Proprietor of Silk Mills at Saint Albans.

On what Terms does he carry on that Manufacture?

On condition of employing all the poor Children in the House, and if he wants more, employing those who belong to the Parish.

Do the Parish give him the Use of a Shed for that Purpose?

Yes.

All the other Expences fall upon him?

Yes.

In the Year that that Silk Manufacture was stopped, had that a particular Effect upon the Poor Rates, in increasing them, or in diminishing the Comforts of the Poor?

I am not aware that it had a very material Effect.

What Persons besides Children are in the Workhouse?

Principally old Men and Women; some few Women who have been left by their Husbands, and who are there with their Families.

Are there more of those than are sufficient to carry on the necessary Work of the House?

Not more; sometimes not sufficient.

How are the old Men employed?

They are employed on the Parish Roads.

At what Rate of Wages?

At 4s. or 4s. 6d. per Week.

You have stated that there were a great Number of Persons Ten Years ago out of Employ; have there been many out of Employment during the last Year?

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We average, during the Winter Months, from Ninety to One hundred out of Employment, except that The Marquess of Salisbury employed Forty or Fifty of them in planting; they are Persons who are thrown upon the Parish at the Commencement of the Winter: we generally have Ninety or One hundred Persons thrown upon the Parish for Work.

Have you not frequently heard Complaints made, that the Men so thrown out of Work were of such bad Character that no Person would take them on, except in Cases of absolute Necessity?

A great Proportion of them are Persons who never have any regular Work with the Farmers, but are employed during the Haytime and the Harvest, when they are sure to find Work; and at the End of those Periods they come on the Parish.

Are those who are thrown out of Work Occupiers of Cottages within the Parish, with Pieces of Land attached to those Cottages?

No; I am sorry to say we have very few of that Description. We have very few Cottages with more than a small Garden; a great many have not any Garden at all.

Are all those Cottages where there are no Gardens rented from the Farmer or from the Proprietor?

From Proprietors; principally Carpenters and Persons of that Description who get possession of a little Land, and build up a Number of Cottages together.

Do they build those Cottages on a Speculation of Profit?

Decidedly so.

At very high Rents?

Very high Rents indeed.

What are the usual Rents?

I should say from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per Week, without any Land at all attached to them: and in some instances I know poor People who at this Moment give 2s. a Week for nothing more than a little Lean-to to another House.

Supposing those Cottages had not been built, would not the Poor have been distressed for Habitations?

Yes; they could not have had them.

Has it come to your Knowledge, that any Person of good Character within the last few Years has been for any length of Time out of Employment?

No, certainly not.

Is it your Opinion that there is sufficient Employment within the Parish for the whole Population?

Certainly there is sufficient Employment upon the Land, if the Farmers had Capital to employ them, and more than sufficient Employment for them. I am satisfied that if the Farmers were able to employ the whole in doing the necessary Work of their Farms, to keep them up in a proper State, we should not have One Man out of Employment?

Do you mean to say, that the due Cultivation of Land, if a Farmer could afford it, would furnish them with sufficient Employment?

For them all.

With a sufficient Remuneration for the Expence so incurred?

Yes; Work that they would gladly now do.

The Farmers not having Capital, they are not so employed?

They are not.

The Marquess of Salisbury employs many in that Parish?

Yes; of the Ninety or One hundred who came upon the Parish for Work, Lord Salisbury employed Forty or Fifty during the Winter.

Were it not for the Aid of that Employment afforded by his Lordship, they would be thrown out of Employment?

Yes.

Supposing his Lordship not to have employed those Persons in the Winter, would not they have been thrown upon the Poor's Rate of the Parish?

They would have been thrown upon the Parish for Employment.

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Has not the Population of the Place grown up on the supposed Necessity of a large Number of Persons being employed from Hatfield House, and with that constant Demand for them in the Winter Months?

Certainly the Population has so increased.

Averaging that Proportion of the Population of the Parish who are employed by other Persons than Lord Salisbury with that which is employed by Lord Salisbury himself, should you say there would be sufficient Employment for the Population of the Parish if that Part of the Parish occupied by Lord Salisbury was occupied in the same Manner as the other Parts of the Parish?

I should say there would be sufficient Employment for them all.

Would that be the Case, according to the present Mode of cultivating Lands in that Parish, supposing Hatfield Park now thrown into Farm, and that the People had no Employment through Lord Salisbury's Assistance; would there be, in the Manner in which the Farms are now cultivated in that Parish, sufficient Employment for the Poor?

I think not, as they are now cultivated there; for the last few Years the Land has not been cultivated by Farmers as it would be for their own Interest.

Why do you think it has not been cultivated by Farmers as it would be for their own Interest?

Because the Farmers have not Capital.

To what is the Diminution of Capital to be attributed; to Profligacy on their Part, or what?

I think to the Difficulties which have attended the Farmers the last few Years.

To what is that owing?

To the reduced Price of the Produce of the Land of every Description.

And the increased Rate of the Poor's Rates?

No; Poor's Rates have diminished.

The Diminution of the Price of Produce has been such as to take that Remuneration from the Farmers which would enable them to employ a sufficient Number of Hands?

Yes; there is some Land which now produces no Return to the Farmer.

Would that, in former Years, have produced some Return to the Farmer?

Yes.

How long ago?

Within my own Recollection; I have been there for Nineteen Years.

Within Nineteen Years that Land might have been cultivated with Profit to the Farmer?

Yes.

That is turned out of Cultivation?

I cannot say it is turned out of Cultivation; it is turned back almost to Sheep Walk.

Was that old cultivated Land, or the Subject of new Cultivation?

Some of it old Land, and some which had been newly cultivated.

If there was sufficient Capital laid out upon that Land to bring it into a proper State of Cultivation, in your Opinion would it now produce a sufficient Return to the Farmer?

In my Opinion it would not to that particular Land.

In reference to the Answer you gave, stating that there was sufficient perpetual Employment for all the Labourers in the Parish, did you state that from your own Opinion, or from the Information of Farmers who have communicated that to you?

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From the Information of the Farmers. I asked them at my last Tithe Dinner, where I met them in great Numbers, that Question, whether, if they had Capital enabling them to employ the whole, they would have Employment for all residing or belonging to the Parish; they said, yes: and they went further; they said they should be very glad, if the Landlord would advance the Money, to pay an additional Rent for the Money so advanced, from a Conviction that it would improve their Land.

Is it within your Knowledge that a Farmer in the Parish has laid out considerable Sums upon his Land, the Money being advanced by his Landlord, and he paying an Interest of Five per Cent. in addition to his Rent?

One Farmer has done so.

Was that Farm supposed to be of very indifferent Quality?

Yes.

What, in your Opinion, is the present State of it?

I think it is very much improved, and perhaps as productive as any in the immediate Neighbourhood.

At the present Prices, is it likely to remunerate the Man who has expended the Money?

I think it is, after the Improvements made upon the Farm by draining, &c.

At the present Prices, would the Farmers be likely to be remunerated, supposing they could prevail upon their Landlords to lend that Capital so employed on the Improvement of the Farms?

Yes, I think it would in the best, but not inferior Lands.

Would they be able, upon the Average of Prices of the last Three Years?

If it would remunerate them at all, it would remunerate them with that additional Expence.

As the Prices have been during the last Four Years, would they stand any Chance of being remunerated?

No, I do not think they would, on the inferior Lands.

Do you not think that this additional Capital would only delay for a greater Time the Ruin which was impending?

No, I cannot think that; for I still think, that, whatever the Prices may be, every Improvement of the Land would give them a greater probability of Success.

The Land wanted draining and manuring in the Case you referred to?

Yes.

Do you know whether the Farmer to whom you alluded has paid the Interest on the Capital?

He pays the Interest regularly.

Do you suppose that that Individual to whom Capital has been thus advanced is making sufficient Profit upon his Farm?

I think he is.

Have you had any Reason for thinking that others, if placed in the same Situation, would not equally have a Chance of obtaining fair Returns?

I think that many of the others would. I think, in most Cases, it would be so beneficial to them, that they would be remunerated.

Even at the Average Prices of Produce during the last Four Years?

Yes.

That there would be a profitable Return for the Capital so expended?

I think there would, except on the inferior Lands.

Taking the Prices and Crops of the last Four Years?

Yes.

Do you conceive they would be remunerated at the Average Prices and Crops of the Four last Years, taking them both together?

No, certainly not.

Do you conceive this Farmer to be a Man of above the Average Intellects and Manners of the Generality of Farmers?

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I should say that I think he is a very industrious, very frugal Man; he works himself with his Labourers; and I think if any Farmer can succeed he would. I should think he is a very good practical Farmer, but nothing beyond that in point of Intellects.

If Farming is to go on in the Way it has lately, will not those who have Capital soon be without any?

I am afraid so.

In point of fact, has it not come to your Knowledge that Lists of Labourers out of Employment in your Parish has been looked over, and Complaint made that there was not one whom any Individual would trust?

Yes; some that I could not trust, and others that I do not think could do a Day's Work, of the Thirty or Forty out of Employment.

How is Employment provided for the Thirty or Forty in that Situation?

One Way is, taking up the Docks or the Roots of Trees, which we have done many Winters to a considerable Extent.

On whose Account is that done?

On account of the Parish. The Wood is taken up, clipped and stacked, and then sold for Firing.

Are they sent on other Persons Land to do that?

Latterly in Lord Melbourne's Park, who is very glad to have the Roots taken up; he receives 3s. a Stack for the Wood, the Labourer is paid 8s. a Stack for taking them up, and they are sold again at 10., 11s. and 12s. a Stack, on account of the Parish.

So that if there is any Loss it is a trifling one?

I should say there has been no Loss upon it ever since it has been adopted.

Is there much Employment upon the Roads?

Yes, considerable Employment upon the Roads, and in digging Gravel for the Roads; and for the Trust also, for the Turnpike Road.

Can you state in what Manner the Persons are employed upon the Roads, whether by the Piece or by the Day?

All under Fifty Years of Age are employed by the Piece; those above Fifty are employed by the Day.

Can you state what Extent of Road there is in the Parish kept in Repair?

I think Two and forty Miles.

Independently of the Trust?

Yes; Parish Roads.

Some of those Roads are Roads of very great Traffic, are they not?

Yes.

Can you state the Expence at which those Roads are kept in a proper State of Repair?

I can by reference to the Stone Warden's Rate; the Stone Warden's Rate is at the Average of Nine-pence in the Pound.

Can you state the Amount of that last Year?

£372.

Has any other Means of Employment been resorted to for the Labourers thrown upon the Parish?

The Parish hired Twenty Acres of Land, which they held for Two Years.

How were those Twenty Acres of Land cultivated?

Partly by Spade, and partly by the Plough.

Were they cultivated at a considerable Loss, or to a Profit?

To a Loss of about 10l. in the Two Years.

What Employment did they furnish?

They furnished Employment for all the Persons whom we had out of Work during Three Months.

On what Account was the hiring that Twenty Acres of Land given up?

I believe because it was found to be too large a Quantity.

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Is any Land now hired?

Five Acres.

Is that found sufficient for the Purposes of employing the Labourers at particular Seasons of the Year?

No; the Labourers are never employed on that, or very seldom indeed, except the Poor of the Workhouse.

What Rent did they pay for that Land?

Two Pounds an Acre for that Five Acres.

You mentioned that the Cottagers had no Gardens, generally speaking; do you think the Persons in question would be better content if small Portions of Land, according to the Capacity of the Individual, were allotted to them?

I have no doubt they would; so much so that we have commenced this Year allotting Land to the Poor.

Do you think it would be an Injury to occupying Tenements if certain Portions of Land were taken out of the Farms to be so applied?

Not any at all.

You mentioned that the Population in the Parish of Hatfield is 3,216; are they all Parishioners, or are there some of them Strangers, attracted by the Hope of Employment from the chief Proprietor or other benevolent Persons in the Winter?

I should say none attracted by any Motive of that kind. There are some of them who do not belong to the Parish, but they are good Labourers, who have been employed by the Farmer, and who have been continued in the Employment for many Years, and who still are anxious to employ them, because they do not like to part with good Men.

You have tried the Experiment of Spade Husbandry; from that Experiment do you think it likely to be employed profitably, so as to give Labour to the Poor?

I do.

To a great Extent

Not to any great Extent; so far as the Poor will take it themselves.

If it increases the Quantity of Produce, must it not diminish the Price?

Certainly.

You state that the Increase of Produce will diminish the Price; if it answers the Purpose of improving the Condition of the Labouring People, will not that produce a greater Consumption as well as a greater Produce?

Certainly.

Therefore it may tend to raise the Price, if the Consumption increases above the Ratio of the Production?

If the Consumption increases above the Ratio of the Production, I should conceive it would, certainly.

You state that this Land is let at 2l. an Acre; if that were cultivated in the ordinary Manner of Cultivation in Hatfield Parish, what would be the Produce of Wheat?

I should think that Land well cultivated would produce Twentyfive Bushels.

Do you conceive that is the ordinary Production which Land does afford now as it is cultivated?

No, not the Land in the Parish generally.

What is the ordinary Produce?

I should say it varies from Fifteen to Twenty-five Bushels.

Has the Straw Plait Manufactory been tried in your Parish?

Yes, to a very great Extent.

When was that Straw Plait Manufactory commenced?

It commenced some Years before I knew the Parish; but it has increased very much since I have known it.

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Has not that given considerable Employment to the Women and Children?

So much so that I conceive without it our Poor would have been very much distressed. It is the principal Employment of the Women and Children.

Have the Woods given more or less Employment to the People in thinning the Plantations?

They have given increased Employment.

In the Payment by the Parish of the Wages of surplus Labourers during the Winter Months is there any Distinction made between a married and a single Man?

Not any, except that the single Men have the harder Work of the two. There are Two Gravel Pits; the single Men are put into that which is supposed to be the least productive, but the Wages are the same.

What is the general Rate of Weekly Wages in Hatfield Parish?

From 9s. to 12s.

Have they out of these Earnings been able to make any considerable Savings?

Not out of these Earnings; but I conceive that they have out of their general Earnings, because in most instances in a large Family they add considerably to their Weekly Earnings by Straw Plait.

Can you state the Sum that has been put into the Savings Bank, or into any Place of Deposit, during the last Year?

I received 375l. in the last Year from the Poor.

What Portion of that has been returned?

It was all returned to them at the End of the Year. It had been deposited in the Sunday Bank.

Have any of them any considerable Sums now in the Savings Bank?

Not any considerable Sums in the Savings Bank.

Are there any particular instances which occur to your Knowledge of large Families having been brought up without any Assistance from the Parish?

Several. There is one in particular, a poor Man with Nine Children under Fourteen Years of Age, who has not received Relief for several Years from his Parish; his Earnings during that Time have been 11s. and 12s. a Week, and his Children have been enabled to earn from 5s. to 8s. by their Plait.

Can you state whether the Family to which you allude were in Possession of any Land for Cultivation?

The Farmer by whom he has been employed during that Period has always given him a Quantity of Land, which they call the Hedge Greens, to cultivate for himself.

Does that Individual express himself as depending mainly upon this Source of Subsistence?

He represents that without that he should certainly have been under the Necessity of applying to his Parish for Relief.

That Man is in constant Employment?

He is.

Has he lived in the same Place the whole Time?

He has.

Is it a common Practice with Farmers of that Neighbourhood to give Land to Labourers to cultivate?

It is.

Will you state the Formation and Objects of the Sunday Bank?

The Poor are allowed to bring every Sunday from 6d. to 2s. which is returned to them at the End of the Year, with an Interest of Ten per Cent.

How is that Interest of Ten per Cent. obtained?

It is obtained by the voluntary Contribution of Individuals.

Is that returned in Money or Clothes?

In Money.

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Do the Farmers of Hatfield frequent the London Market?

With Hay they do.

Do they not bring Manure from London as Back Carriage?

They do.

That is, of course, a great Advantage to them in the Cultivation of their Land?

It is.

Do you find that the Straw Plait Manufacture, which you think renders great Service to the poor People in your Neighbourhood, is extending into the Neighbouring Counties?

I am not aware that it is.

Do they export the manufactured Articles?

They are exported.

Do you think any thing could be obtained if the Government gave a Premium on the Exportation of the Straw Plait Manufactures?

I really am hardly able to give an Opinion upon that. I will state one Circumstance with regard to Plait: some Years ago, when I first came to Hatfield, I wished to ascertain the Produce of the Labour of the Women, and I ascertained that one Woman had earned 22s. in a Week by her Plait.

How long has the Sunday Bank been established in Hatfield?

About Eleven or Twelve Years.

Were you the Clergyman of the Parish at its first Institution?

Yes.

Was there any Difficulty, in the first instance, in inducing the Labourers to come and deposit their Money with you?

It has increased gradually: there was some little Difficulty in inducing them at first; but at the End of the first Year, when they saw the Advantage it was to their Neighbours, there were many more anxious to come into it.

Have those who were the original I Contributors to it rather increased than diminished their Deposits?

Some of them have; but we do not allow them beyond 2s. a Week.

Are there many that go to that Extent?

Yes, there are a great many.

Are there any that to your Knowledge began with depositing a smaller Sum than 2s. who have now been enabled to make their Deposits to that Amount?

Several.

Has there been any Improvement in the general Appearance of the Families who have so deposited their Money?

I should say, decidedly.

When you receive this Money, do you retain it in your own Hands or pay it into a Bank?

I pay it into the Savings Bank.

From the Savings Bank you receive a certain Interest?

Yes.

You pay them Ten per Cent. upon the Deposit?

Yes.

Have you any Means of stating the Amount of the Deposits during the first Year of the Establishment of that Bank?

Under 100l.

Did it increase rapidly in the next Year, or has it been a gradual Increase?

A gradual Increase; the last Year it amounted to 375l.

Have you ever perceived any Diminution in the Amount of Deposits, in consequence of the Badness of the Times?

No, I cannot say that I have.

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There has been a regular Increase?

There has.

Are the Contributors to it very generally within the Parish, or is it confined still to a few?

One hundred and forty-two Depositors, of whom One hundred and eleven were Labourers, and Thirty-one were Servants and Apprentices.

Have you any Means of stating the Number of Depositors in the first Year, or every Year during the Time it has been established?

I have not that Account with me.

Can you furnish the Committee with an Account of the Number of Depositors each Year, and the Sum paid?

I think I can.

The Witness is directed to prepare this Account. (See Appendix.)

Have you any other Charitable Funds to which the Poor subscribe themselves?

We have a Coal Fund.

Will you state the Number of Contributors and the Amount contributed to that?

I received last Year 158l. from the Poor, some subscribing 6s. and others 9s.; they were furnished at Christmas with Coals at 1s. per Bushel.

The remaining Price being made up out of private Contribution?

Just so.

Have you found the Eagerness to subscribe to that Fund to increase from the Time that it was originally established?

Very much.

Has that been a gradual Increase, or have you found it diminish in Seasons of Distress?

It has continued to increase from its first Establishment.

What Proportion has their own Subscription borne to private Contributions to the Coal Fund?

The Subscription is about One Third. The Price of Coals is about 52s. a Chaldron, and we receive from them 36s.; they are delivered to them at 1s. a Bushel. The Difference between the 52s. and the 36s. is made up out of private Contribution.

Have you lately set up a Fund for the Purpose of procuring Clothing for the Poor?

Within the last Six Years the Poor have been allowed to buy Clothes during the Three Winter Months.

Have you any Institution in the Shape of a Penny Club to enable them to do that?

Yes; that is but a very small Part of it.

When was that established?

The Shop was opened in the Year 1825.

Can you state at what Expence that Shop has been kept open during the last Six Years?

The Poor have annually expended from 120l. to 150l. in Clothes.

What Amount of private Contribution has enabled you to give them that Opportunity?

Five and twenty per Cent. has been contributed.

Have you lately introduced a Penny Club, for the Purpose of encouraging them to buy Clothes?

Yes.

How many Contributors have there been to that Fund this Year?

I cannot tell at present; that is taken by Ladies, and no Return has been made to me of it yet.

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In your Opinon, has the Population of Hatfield increased rapidly since the last Census?

Judging by the Births and Deaths, it has increased about Fifty every Year; the Christenings have amounted to about a Hundred, and the Burials to Fifty.

Do you conceive that Marriages are as frequent now as they were the first Ten Years you were acquainted with the Parish?

Yes; I should think nearly the same.

Do the People marry at an equally early Period?

Yes, I think so.

Do they marry at an earlier Period?

I think not.

Do you conceive the Population are in a better Condition now, notwithstanding this Increase of Fifty Persons every Year, than it was Ten Years ago?

I think the Poor are much better off than they were Ten Years ago.

Have any additional Means of Employment arisen in your Parish?

No, I am not aware that there have, except at the Paper Mill; there has been a considerable Addition there.

Are the Persons employed at the Paper Mill all Parishioners of Hatfield, or do they come from the neighbouring Parishes?

The Papermakers are not Parishioners of Hatfield; the others who are employed at the Mill generally are.

Can you state how many Persons are employed at the Paper Mill?

There are Forty-seven Men, Sixty Women, Seven Boys and Six Girls.

How many of those are Parishioners of Hatfield?

I should think all, except the Nine Papermakers.

In your Opinion are the Morals of the Poor improved since the Adoption of a better System of Parish Expenditure?

I should say they are, certainly.

Do you conceive that a Dependence on the Parish Rates tends to degrade their Moral Character?

Certainly; the Moral Character of the People has risen since the Alteration in the Management of the Poor. Many instances have occurred since the Alteration in the Management of the Parish, in which the Poor, whether as Parents or as Children, have come forward to the Assistance of their Relations, in a Way in which they never did before: we have many poor Widows who are entirely supported by their Children.

How long have the Paper Mills been established?

They have been established a great many Years; they were established when I came to Hatfield.

Are they on the common System of Machinery, or an improved System of Machinery?

An improved System of Machinery by Steam. Much of the Work is done by Steam, and with a great deal of Machinery added to it.

Has any Improvement in the Machinery taken place within your Time?

A great deal.

Had that an Effect on the Number of Hands employed?

A very great Effect; it has increased the Number of Persons employed from Thirty-five to One hundred and twenty.

It is a large Establishment?

It is now.

Has the working in the Paper Mill improved the Morals of the People?

I do not perceive that it has affected their Morals.

You mentioned that there is the Straw Plait Manufacture carried on in your Parish?

To a very great Extent.

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Have you any Difficulty in disposing of that?

None at all; it is carried to St. Albans every Week; there is a regular Market for it; and Persons go and purchase of the Poor who keep it by them: they are large Sellers of this Plait.

It is sold by the Individuals?

It is. In some instances Persons come round the Country and buy the Plait of the Poor at their own Cottages.

Is that carried on at all at the Expence of the Parish?

No; by the Individuals themselves. A young Woman at this present Time can earn from 8s. to 10s. a Week by Plait; and Children from 3s. to 5s.

Children of what Age?

From the Age of Six to Twelve.

Are you aware of any such Manufacture being carried on anywhere else in the Neighbourhood?

In Bedfordshire, I believe, very generally, and all over Hertfordshire.

Is the Straw grown in the Neighbourhood?

Yes, it is.

You have stated that the Condition of the Poor has been very much improved within the last few Years, at the same Time that the Condition of the Farmers has become worse; how do you account for the improved Condition of the Poor?

By the reduced Price of Provisions. I conceive that the Rate of Wages to the Poor has not fallen in proportion to the Price of all the Necessaries of Life.

Probably this is owing, in some Measure, to the charitable Institutions connected with your Parish?

I do not attribute much to them.

Do you attribute any thing to the better Economy pursued by the Poor themselves?

No, I cannot say that I do. I think that there is a great deal more Money spent by the Poor in Beer now than there was some Years ago.

In consequence of the greater Cheapness of Beer?

Yes.

And perhaps to the greater Facilities of buying it at the new Beer Shops?

Yes; I am sorry to say that is very much so indeed.

Have you found any sensible Diminution in the Sums of Money lodged in the Savings Bank the last Year?

No, I have not; they are generally contributed by those Persons who are regular, and do not frequent the Beer Shops; but I hear very great Complaints from the Wives of poor Men at present, that their Husbands are tempted daily to go to those Beer Shops; and asking me whether there is any Remedy for their remaining in the Shops from Morning 'till Night.

What Answer did you give to that Question?

That I was not aware that there was any Remedy.

Do not you suppose the Magistrates have Jurisdiction over those Houses, as they have over other Places where there are Disorders committed?

Yes; but I believe there is no Penalty for tippling in those Houses, as there is in Public Houses.

Do you hear any Complaint among the Farmers against those Beer Houses?

Very great indeed on the Part of the Farmers.

Do you think they are compensated by the greater Custom they have for their Malt?

No, I think not; they complain that it is drawing away their Labourers from their Work at various Hours of the Day, and doing a great deal to demoralize them.

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Have you had more Disturbances and drunken Riots in the Parish than before the Establishment of the Beer Shops?

Certainly.

Have any great Number of Excise Licences been taken out in the Parish?

I cannot state exactly the Number; but I should think Ten or Twelve

Does the Parish require any Evidence, before they give a Man Employment, that he has endeavoured to find Employment for himself?

The Overseer gives him a Paper, to which he is obliged to procure the Signature of the Person by whom he has been previously employed, and to go round and get the Signatures of at least Twenty other Farmers to his Certificate, that they have no Employment for him.

Have the Women and Children any more Employment in the Straw Plait than they used to have?

They are constantly employed; but I do not suppose their Profits are so great now as they were Ten or Twelve Years ago.

Are they more generally employed now?

They are, certainly.

Is every Pauper in the Parish attended by the Parish Apothecary if he complains of Sickness?

With an Order from the permanent Overseer.

Is that Order generally refused or granted?

Always granted.

Under what Regulations is Relief given after such Applications?

The Apothecary is empowered to give Relief, such as he conceives necessary, 'till the Meeting of the next Select Vestry, when he is to lay the Case before the Vestry, and to leave it in their Hands as to any future Relief to be granted.

Are the Poor in general satisfied with the Administration of the Poor Laws?

I think, certainly, they are.

Are the Rate Payers in general so satisfied?

Particularly satisfied.

Do you find any Difficulty in getting a sufficient Number to attend the Select Vestry to form a legal Meeting?

Yes; some Difficulty.

To what Cause do you attribute that?

I hardly know to what Cause to attribute it, except that they conceive that the Management of the Parish is in the Hands of a few Persons, and they are willing to give it up to them, satisfied with their Arrangement.

How many Shillings in the Pound have been for the last few Years demanded by the Parish in the Shape of Rates?

Four Shillings.

At what Valuation?

Three Fifths of the Value.

Have the County Rates increased considerably since the Adoption of this Management?

The County Rates have increased very considerably. We now pay 230l. and have done for the last Five Years, for the County Rate. The highest Sum in the Five preceding Years was 141l.

What does a Rate of a Shilling in the Pound produce?

£500.

Can you state how many Shillings in the Pound were raised previously to the Adoption of those new Regulations?

From Six to Eight.

Are the Stone Warden's Rates much higher than they were?

Higher in proportion.

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Was it then the Practice to employ the Labourers upon the Roads, without any Check upon such Employment?

They were employed on the Roads, and also employed as Roundsmen, during the Time the Rates were so high.

You have spoken in very proper Terms of the Benefits derived to your Parish from the Institutions and Clubs; you have since added that you do not think much of the improved Condition of the Poor is to be attributed to them. Will you have the goodness to explain that? Do you say you do not attribute much of their Improvement to those Institutions as compared with the Advantage they derive from the decreased Price of Necessaries?

Yes, as compared, because it gives so small an Amount.

Are there many Persons in Benefit Societies in your Parish?

I should think by far the greatest Proportion are in Benefit Societies.

Are those Benefit Societies well conducted, or otherwise?

I think some of them very indifferently.

Is it not a very great Disadvantage, the Members of those Societies assembling in Public Houses?

I think a very great Disadvantage.

Has the Expence of casual Poor coming through the Parish increased or decreased of late Years?

I should think it is very much the same; I do not think there has been either an Increase or a Decrease. We never give Relief to any casual Poor except in case of Sickness.

Has much Money been spent in Litigation during the last Ten Years in the Parish?

I think the highest Sum in the last Ten Years is 15l. 13s. in the Year.

Has there not been very considerable Expence incurred this Year?

There has been an Expence of nearly 50l. incurred this Year.

Will you have the goodness to state under what Circumstances that Expence was incurred?

In consequence of a Woman with Child being passed from Hythe, and the Expence of appealing against the Order of Removal.

Can you state what the Ground of Removal was?

She came into the Parish to assist a married Sister in Sickness, and she remained assisting her Brother-in-Law in the Management of his Family after her Sister's Death, and remained there for a considerable Time, receiving no Wages, and not being hired, only continuing in the House as an Assistant; and on that Ground they removed her from Hythe to Hatfield.

Have you seen the Correspondence that passed upon that Occasion?

I have.

Could you lay that before the Committee?

I am not certain that I could; but I should think it is kept among the Parish Papers.

Will you state the Substance of it?

The removing Magistrate at Hythe was written to; he returned for Answer, that he had himself considerable Doubts respecting the Case, so much so, that he had on the first Application refused to pass the Woman Home, but that he was afterwards induced to do it; and of course we felt it necessary to appeal.

Did he say that he would apply to the Select Vestry to accept the Proposal of the Pauper being sent back without incurring further Expence?

He did.

Was any Answer made on the Part of the Select Vestry?

Not any.

Was the Order of Removal appealed against?

It was.

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How was it decided?

The Order was quashed.

Were the Expences allowed?

They were not.

At what Sessions was the Appeal heard?

At the Quarter Sessions for East Kent.

Have any Amendments occurred to you as desirable in the Poor Laws?

The only Thing I would suggest as an Improvement would be doing away the Poor Laws altogether; except in Cases of Sickness, I am quite satisfied that the Poor would themselves find Resources, from relieving and assisting each other, without any Parochial Relief.

Are you aware of the Words of the 43d of Elizabeth?

Yes; and I think it should be brought back to the very Words of the Statute.

Are the Committee to understand that it is your Opinion that the nearer you approximate to the original Statute of Elizabeth, the better the System of Poor Laws?

Certainly.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday next, Twelve o'Clock.