Appendix: poor laws, 18 March 1831

[357]

Die Veneris, 18° Martii 1831.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

Edward Simeon Esq. is called in, and examined as follows:

You reside at Whitchurch, in Oxfordshire?

I do.

You have acted as a Magistrate for a considerable Time?

Yes, I have.

During that Time have you had much Occasion to turn your Attention to the Poor Laws?

I have; a good deal owing to the Circumstance of my acting principally at my own House, and without any Professional Adviser.

Is there any particular District or Parish for which you have acted, or have you acted generally for the Division?

I have acted generally for the Division in which I reside.

Have you attended to the Parish Accounts particularly?

Not very much to the Details of the Accounts. I think they do not come so much before the Magistrate as before the Overseer.

Is it the Practice in your Neighbourhood to make any Allowance to Labourers on the Score of their Families?

Yes, it is.

Are the Magistrates regulated by any Table?

I think not. There was some Years ago a Regulation, which went under the Denomination of Bread Money; but I have been very anxious to get that Regulation put on one Side, and I think I have succeeded a good deal in doing so in the immediate Neighbourhood in which I reside.

There is not then now a regular Allowance according to the Numbers in the Family?

Not exactly. We do not allow any particular Claim on the Part of the Paupers. Our Object is to keep the Power of giving Relief as much as possible in the Hands of the Overseer, who is of course liable to be summoned before the Magistrate if he do not what is right. Formerly the Paupers used to bring a regular Charge to the Overseer, and obtained a Sum of Money as a Matter of Right, in proportion to the Number of the Family.

What is the Rate of Wages in your immediate Neighbourhood?

Ten Shillings a Week for the able-bodied Man; it was Nine 'till lately.

Do they get any extra Wages in the Harvest?

Yes; I think in the Harvest they get as much as a Guinea a Week.

What Addition do you make to the Wages of Ten Shillings a Week for a Man with Four Children?

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I should think he would get about 11s. in all; but it would depend upon the Price of Bread. Although we do not acknowledge the Rule of Bread Money, we are guided a good deal by the Price of Bread; but I would wish to state, that my great Aim has been to induce the Overseers to fix a positive Amount of Wages at which they will take the Men all round. Some Men can earn more than others, and do, in consequence of their good Conduct. My Object is always to induce the Overseers not to enquire too narrowly what the Men actually earn from their Masters, but to take the Wages at 9s. or 10s. all round, and then add as much as they would in the common course of things to those 9s. or 10s. Perhaps Individuals amongst these Men, from being very trustworthy or industrious, may be earning from 10s. to 12s. per Week; but this System has the Effect of encouraging the respectable Labourer. I found before, that the good and the bad were all upon a Footing of Equality in point of Payment.

Is the District in which you reside purely Agricultural?

Yes, nearly so. There is a trifling Sack Manufactory at Goring.

When the Rates have been presented to you for Signature, does any great Portion of those Rates come out of Houses, and other Descriptions of Property, independent of Agriculture?

Yes; a good many. I happen to live in the Valley of the Thames, which has a good many Gentlemen's Houses in it, and they are all rated of course.

Are the Poor Rates heavy in your Neighbourhood?

Not very heavy in the Parish in which I reside; but there is an immense Difference in different Parishes.

Has it occurred to you to know whether the Poor of those Parishes where the Rates are highest are most at their Ease, or where the Rates are lowest?

I should say generally the reverse; that where the Rates are highest they are generally the worst off.

To what Cause do you attribute that?

I think in a great measure to Mismanagement; partly, perhaps, to the Circumstance that some Parishes have a great many Gentlemen's Families in them, when others have none at all. Of course the Gentlemen's Families, by employing many People, and doing more in the way of Charity, supersede the Necessity of so heavy a Poor Rate.

What is the usual Rent of Cottages?

From 3l. 10s. to 5l.

Are those Cottages generally the Property of the principal Landowners?

I think not. Many of the Cottages have been built as Matter of Speculation by little Freeholders. I think the principal Part belong to the great Landholders; but a great many belong to the little Tradesmen.

Is there any Practice of excusing those Cottages from Rates?

Yes, invariably.

Is it customary for the Parish to pay the Rent of them?

I should say not generally; it was the Custom 'till lately; but we have been induced to fight very much against it, and we have succeeded in pretty nearly bringing it to a Close in the Parish in which I reside; but in the neighbouring Parishes the Rents are generally paid by the Parish.

You refer to the Rents of those Cottages that are high rented, and that have been built upon Speculation?

No; to the Cottages inhabited by Paupers generally, to whoever belonging. Some Landlords, I should however state, take very much lower Rents.

Are those Individuals that have built those Cottages upon Speculation for the most part considerable Contributors to the Rates themselves?

I should say not; I should say very small Contributors to the Rate; such as are Shopkeepers have an Interest in increasing the Rates instead of diminishing them.

Are many of the Poor embarked in Benefit Societies in your Neighbourhood?

I think not many. I know but of One Benefit Society in the Neighbourhood, and that has been managed by Gentlemen; where it is left to themselves they invariably get into Scrapes, and it does not answer.

Can you make any Comparison between those poor People who are in Benefit Societies, and those who have no Dependence in Sickness but upon Parish Relief?

I should say that those who belong to Benefit Societies are the most respectable and the most laborious Class, and the best Characters by far.

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Is there any great Want of Employment in your Neighbourhood?

There is; there has been for several Winters past.

Can you state the Population of your Parish?

It appears by the Population Return to be 647.

How many Persons are out of Employment in your Parish?

There are no Persons actually out of Employment, because at the Beginning of the Winter we had a Meeting, and the Gentlemen and principal Farmers each engaged to take an additional Man. When I say there were no Persons, there were a few of bad Character whom nobody would take; Three or Four who get their living by poaching.

Is your Parish chiefly Arable or Pasture ?

Chiefly Arable.

Can you state the Proportion of Labourers there were to 100 Acres after that Arrangement?

I cannot, because a great many of the Labourers are employed in Gardens; we have Four or Five Gentlemen's Houses in the Neighbourhood who employ a great many Labourers in Gardens and Works of that Description.

Previously to the Arrangement, were there many Labourers out of Employ?

About Ten or a Dozen able-bodied Men.

Were they mostly good or bad Characters ?

Many of them very good Characters. But I should speak more immediately of the adjoining Parish of Goring as being in a very distressed State, and Southstroke. In those Two Parishes the Amount of the Rates is from 10s. to 15s. and in the Parish of Whitchurch it is only 5s.

Can you state the Extent of the Parish of Goring?

I think about 3,000 or 4,000 Acres; it is by no means so thickly inhabited as our Parish.

Is it an Arable Parish?

Chiefly Arable, except close by the Thames, where it is Pasture Land.

Are there many Persons out of Employment there?

I have not had occasion to make particular Enquiries this Winter; but the Winter before last there were as many as Twentyfive able-bodied Men out of Employment, who were working upon the Road at the Rate of 3s. 6d. per Week.

Are there any Gentlemen resident in that Parish?

Only One or Two Gentlemen of very small Fortune.

Are the Farmers much distressed in that Parish?

I should think they are, from the Accounts I hear.

Can you state whether the Cultivation of the Land is carried on as well as it was some few Years ago?

I should doubt very much whether it is; I should suppose not. In point of fact, some of the Tenants have told me that Land that used to pay very well to cultivate is worth nothing now, on account of the low Price of Produce.

Have they told you, that with a remunerating Price for their Produce they would have had sufficient Employment for all the Labouring Classes?

I do not know that I ever put that Question; but I have no doubt that there would be a vast deal more Labour if the Prices of Produce were higher.

Sufficient to employ the whole of the Population?

Perhaps not, because the Population is constantly increasing.

Within your own Knowledge, is the Land there capable of any great Improvement?

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I imagine that if the Price of Produce were higher more Money would be laid out in clearing the Land, and therefore the Land would be more improved; especially, more Beans would be grown, which are a great Source of Profit to the poor Labourers, by employing the Women and Children (who can do nothing else in the Spring) in planting them with the Hand; dibbling, as it is called; but they are very low in Price, and the Farmers will not plant more than is necessary.

Is there any Manufactory of any kind in the Parish of Goring?

There used to be a great deal of Spinning formerly by the Females; but that is given up now, as it does not answer, in consequence of the Introduction of Machinery.

Have they any Means of earning any thing in addition to their Wages?

I have endeavoured to employ them occasionally in knitting Stockings; but I found that from Want of Practice there are very few of them who can do it with Facility; and those that can are not willing to do it, because they expect that if they earn any thing in that Way it will be taken off their Allowance by the Overseer.

Have the Poor any Gardens in your Parish?

Some of them have; but many have none at all. Those who rent under the little Shopkeepers and Tradesmen that I alluded to before have not generally Gardens.

Has any Attempt been made to let out Portions of Land in that Way?

None at all.

Is there a Select Vestry established in the Parish of Goring?

I think not, nor in the Parish of Whitchurch.

Have they taken any Advantage of the Provisions of the Act of the 59th of the late King, which empower Parishes to hire Acres of Land?

No.

Is there much real Employment for them upon the Roads?

A good many People are put upon the Roads from not knowing what to do with them.

Are they paid by the Day, or in proportion to the Labour they do?

They profess often to pay them according to the Work; but, to save Trouble, the Overseer at last pays them by the Day, or rather by the Week.

Is there any permanent Overseer in the Parish?

No; there is a great Difficulty in appointing a permanent Overseer.

Are there any Workhouses?

There are no Workhouses. With respect to the Difficulty of appointing a permanent Overseer, it has been thought very desirable, as it is found that the Farmers could not undertake the Duty of looking after the Paupers, to appoint a standing Overseer in various Parishes; but some of the Magistrates have refused to appoint a standing Overseer, except upon stamped Paper; and there is an Impression that that would give him a permanent Settlement in the Parish; and the Consequence is, that standing Overseers have not been appointed, to the great Detriment of the Parish. It is under the Stamp Act that the Magistrates have got that Notion, and I think the Notion has been encouraged a good deal by the Clerks of the Petty Sessions. They may be right for what I can tell.

Why would the appointing under a Stamp give the standing Overseer a Settlement?

I cannot tell that, and I am not of Opinion that it will; but the Majority of the Magistrates are of that Opinion, and they have over-ruled me upon the Subject. My Object has always been to shut my Eyes to any Difficulty of that sort that was not necessarily brought before us.

Have Cases under the Law of Settlement come particularly under your Notice?

A good many.

What are the principal Defects in the Law of Settlement that have occurred to you?

I should say the Settlement by Hiring and Service.

Is that much practised?

[361]

I think not so much as it was. Many young Labourers are very unwilling to hire themselves by the Year, because they find that they do better by taking the high Wages they can earn in Summer, and then coming upon the Parish and living in Idleness in the Winter. A respectable Farmer in my Neighbourhood heard Two Lads agree never to get into a Place again, as it was much better to be on the Parish in Winter, and earn what they could in Summer.

Is there any Difficulty, in consequence of the Laws of Hiring and Service, in Persons going out of their own Parish, and getting Employment where there might be Work for them in other Parishes?

It operates in this Way: if a Man lives in what is called a bad Parish, he is willing to go out and gain a Settlement elsewhere; but if he lives in what is called a good Parish, that is to say, where there are a great many Gentry, and a good deal done for the Poor, he takes a great deal of Care not to gain a Settlement any where else.

Is the Law evaded in your Neighbourhood by hiring a Day after Michaelmas?

I think it is, occasionally; but the Judges have discountenanced that. They have leaned, as one Judge says, in favour of gaining a Settlement on the Part of the Labourers; and they have stretched the Point a good deal.

Is much Money spent in Litigation upon this Subject in your Neighbourhood?

I think not much. We generally think it better to give way than to litigate.

Have you turned your Attention to any Alteration you would think desirable in the Laws of Settlement?

I should say that if we could get rid of the Settlement by Service it would be of vast Advantage to the Country.

Is there any other Alteration you would recommend in the Law of Settlement?

[362]

I would suggest an Alteration in the Bastardy Laws. The Bastardy Laws proceed upon the Principle of indemnifying the Parish, by throwing the Onus of the Bastard upon the Father. Now I rather believe that we shall never be able to check the Birth of Bastard Children by throwing the Onus upon the Man; and I feel strongly convinced, that until the Law of this Country is assimilated to the Law of Nature, and to the Law of every other Country, by throwing the Onus more upon the Females, the getting of Bastard Children will never be checked. Your Lordships are aware, that when a Man has the Misfortune to have a Bastard Child sworn to him, he is brought before a Magistrate. The Magistrates are placed in this Predicament: they say to the Man, "Will you marry this Woman; will you support the Child; or will you go to Prison?" The Man very naturally says, "I cannot support the Child, for I have not got the Means; out of 3s. 6d. a Week it is impossible to give 2s. a Week; and I am exceedingly unwilling to go to Oxford Gaol; and therefore of the Three Evils I will chuse the least, and marry the Woman, although it is probable that the Child is not mine, and if it is mine it is probable that the Woman has lain with Half the Parish as well as myself." Your Lordship is aware, that when a Bastard Child is sworn to a Man the Magistrates will not go into the Question whether the Woman has had any Connection with any other Man. The Consequence is, that a Woman of dissolute Character may have Connection with any Person she pleases, and then pitch upon any unfortunate young Man whom she has inveigled into her Net, and swear that Child to him; and the Effect of the Law as it now stands will be to oblige the Man to marry her. The Consequence is, that the Parish, instead of keeping One Bastard Child, has to keep Half a Dozen Legitimate Children, the Result of their Marriage. As far as regards the Females, the Case is infinitely worse. You say to a Woman, "As long as you continue virtuous and modest you have no Chance of getting a Husband, because, in the present State of Things, the Men are cautious about marrying; but if you will turn Whore, and lie with any Person you please, the Law will oblige him to marry you." You thus secure to her what every Woman looks upon as the greatest Prize— a Husband. You thus make the Vice of the Woman the Means of getting that which she is anxious to get; and I feel convinced that Three Fourths of the Women that now have Bastard Children would not be seduced if it were not for the Certainty that the Law would oblige the Man to marry.

Is not that Consequence rather owing to the Misconduct of the Magistrates, who allow the Marriage of the Parties to be any Indemnification of the Parish, than owing to the Law itself?

No; it would not be an Indemnification to the Parish for a Bastard Child born in the Parish.

Is it not an unlawful Act on the Part of the Magistrates?

The Magistrates do not put it in so many Words; but the Man comes before the Magistrate, knowing perfectly well that such and such will be the Case. The Magistrate would never venture to say to the Man, "If you do not marry the Girl, I will send you to Prison;" but the Man knows that will be the Case. For myself, I am so convinced of the Iniquity of the Bastardy Laws, that I have always refrained from acting upon them in my own House, and send the Cases to the Petty Sessions. As the Law now stands, the Magistrate conceives himself bound, upon the Requisition of the Overseer, to send any Man to Prison to whom a Bastard Child is sworn, unless he is prepared with Bail. At Reading, Two or Three Months ago, I was on the Bench, and a young Man was brought up to have a Child sworn to him; the Overseer of the Parish where the Girl lived was present; the Magistrate was about to commit this young Man, who appeared to be a respectable Person, for Want of Bail to appear at the Sessions, to Prison; I remonstrated, and said that I thought it was hard, as the Man said he would give Bail at his Appearance at the Sessions. The Answer of the Magistrate was, "As the Act of Parliament stands, if the Overseer request it, I am bound to commit him." I said, "I think you have some Latitude; but at all events, rather than see a respectable young Man committed to Prison, I will be Bail for him myself." I did not know the Man, but I thought it cruel that he should be sent to Prison under those Circumstances. Your Lordships are aware, that after a Man has been once imprisoned his Character is in a Manner lost, and therefore he does not much care what he does after. Like a Boy at School, who, after he has been once flogged, is comparatively indifferent to the Disgrace. The Overseer refused to consent to the Man not being sent to Prison. I found that it was for the Purpose of obliging this young Man to marry the Girl; and therefore I am justified in saying, that no Option is left to the young Man under those Circumstances. Numberless similar Cases have occurred before me.

Would the Magistrate be justified in admitting that as a Plea for not enforcing the Bastardy Laws, that he subsequently married the Girl?

Certainly not; the Man would still be bound to keep his Child born before Marriage, under the Order of Sessions.

What Alterations can you suggest in the Bastardy Laws to correct that Evil?

The only Alteration I can suggest would be to throw the Onus more upon the Females, if not entirely upon the Females.

How would you carry that into Effect?

By refusing to give any Order upon the Father for Support, or upon the Parish even. I would throw the Onus entirely upon the Woman. I know of many instances in which the Mothers have themselves been instrumental in having their Daughters seduced, for the express Purpose of getting rid of the Onus of supporting them, and saddling them upon any unfortunate young Men of the Neighbourhood whom they could get to the House. Now, as long as that Conduct can meet with that Result, it will invariably be continued, and the Population must go on increasing.

Do you then attribute the rapid Increase of the Population very much to the Effect of the Bastardy Laws in forcing early Marriages?

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Almost entirely. In order to shew your Lordships what sometimes passes at the Sessions, I will beg leave to mention Circumstances that came within my Knowledge at the Petty Sessions at Henley. A Pauper applied for a Pair of Shoes, although the Parish had given him a capital Pair not Three Weeks before, which he had sold for Drink. When a Man of that sort comes to the Magistrates, the latter are too frequently imposed upon, and give an Order on the Overseer, which he complies with, and a constant Fraud is carried on. One Woman applied to have some Wood sent in by the Overseer; but it is notorious that the Law does not authorize any thing of the sort. Another complained, that though he had received Money, and been put into a House by the Overseer, the Overseer had not furnished his House for him. I put these Things down, as they all happened in one Day; which shews what the Feeling of the poor People is, and which Feeling has arisen from the Way in which the Poor Laws have been put into Execution in our Part of the Country.

Do the Magistrates attend to any of those Cases?

I think not; but I think there had been a Disposition to attend to Cases of this sort previously, otherwise they would not have been brought forward. Will your Lordships allow me to mention One or Two Circumstances connected with the Hiring and Service. A respectable Pauper one Day, to whom I was complaining, and saying that I did not think the Parishioners of my Parish were at all good Workmen, and that the Out-Parishioners who lived in the Parish were the best Labourers, answered very coolly, "The Fact is, that they will put up with a great deal more than the In-Parishioners will put up with:" meaning to say, that they would work, and be lectured by their Masters, which the InParishioners would not, because they consider that their Masters are bound to keep them in any Case. I know a young Man who had a very excellent Place in our Neighbourhood, who lived with a Gentleman, and was employed as Labourer under the Gardener; he said he would not stay there, because he did not choose to take any Orders from the Gardener, and added, that he did not care whether he lost his Place or not, because he knew the Parish must keep him in any Case. I submit that in a Case of that sort he ought to have been sent to the Tread Mill; but, unfortunately, that is not the System that is pursued. I should say that the Poor Laws in themselves are not so defective as the Way in which they have been administered. Your Lordships are aware that there is a great deal of Intimidation exercised by the Paupers towards the Overseers.

Have there been any Riots in your Neighbourhood?

In Berkshire, but not in Oxfordshire; Two or Three hundred Men marched into Oxfordshire, but they found no Encouragement, and went back again. Your Lordships are aware of the common Custom among the Poor of coming Home in Winter. Before I came to Town, a Couple of idle Men came to the Parish, who had been working out of the Parish several Years; they came and said that they would have Support; and finding the Overseer not willing to take them in, they offered, if he would give them Two Sovereigns each, they would go away and not return for this Winter; and the Overseer offered to give them Half a Sovereign each, which they were not satisfied with. This shews clearly that Labour often may be got by People when they come Home to their Parishes.

Is there any other Evil which you consider to exist in the present Administration of the Poor Laws?

I should suggest, as one Source of great Evil in the Country, the improper Directions given by Magistrates to the Overseers. I take it that one of the greatest Sources of the Departures from the original Law has been in the Directions given by the Magistrates to the Overseers. Those Directions are drawn up by any Law Stationer, and are signed as a matter of course by the Magistrates, and they are sent round to the various Overseers; those Overseers find it necessary to act upon them, under a Penalty. I have collected from Four to Five different Descriptions of Orders to Overseers, issued in the same County of Oxford. It is of course impossible that these should be all correct, and in fact I believe that no one of them was correct; and if some Measure could be taken by which Directions to Overseers could be issued from the Home Office, or by some responsible Party, that would tend to remove many Evils. Those Directions are issued as a matter of course; and I was so much shocked, when I began to act as a Magistrate, at finding them so much at variance with the Law, that I attempted to have some Alteration made; but I was told that it had gone on so for Years, and did not get the Evil redressed.

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Has it occurred to you that any Means could be devised for encouraging young Men obtaining Employment in Service?

The taking off the Tax upon Servants would have great Effect. I find now that the Tradesmen and little Farmers who used to keep Servants are unwilling to do so on account of the Tax; and that has the Effect of course of preventing those People being employed; and that has an Effect of course upon ourselves, of raising the Price of Servants.

Is it the Practice in Oxfordshire for Farmers to keep Servants in their own Houses?

I think that has become a little more the Case lately. It was formerly practised; but the Men do not like it now, and the Masters find it troublesome, and the Men find they have more Liberty by not hiring themselves for a Year. One Thing that makes it very disagreeable for Farmers to hire Labourers for a Year is, that they are not able to keep them in Order without sending them to Prison. I am perfectly convinced that if some Means were given to the Magistrates, instead of sending Men and Boys to Prison, of putting them to the Stocks, or inflicting some minor Punishment, the Consequence would be that a great deal of good would be done in checking small Offences. As the Matter is, we have no Check upon juvenile or grown-up Offenders, because every right-thinking Man is unwilling to send a Man or Boy to Prison for small Offences; whereas if they could be put in the Stocks it would be a great Check upon them.

Are you not aware that they can mulct them of their Wages?

The mulcting them of their Wages, where they are so very small, can hardly be done without starving them.

Is the Punishment in the Stocks ever resorted to in your Parish?

It is only legal for Drunkenness; but I think it would be very desirable if it could be made legal for general Misconduct with their Masters. I am so strongly convinced of it, that, after consulting with some other Magistrates, I took the Liberty of writing to Mr. Peel, Two Years ago, upon the Subject. I may have a Dozen Complaints against a Dozen different People, every one of which ought to be punished, but which I am perfectly unable to punish, unless I go the extreme length of sending those poor Boys to Prison; and I know that if I send them to Prison they will be thrown into such Company that they come out worse than they go in. Supposing the present Distress in a great measure to proceed from over Population, and supposing the over Population to proceed very much from the Bastardy Laws, there would then be strong Ground made out for making some Alteration in those Laws.

Do you conceive the Existence of over Population throughout the Country generally to be a Point established?

I conceive so, generally. With regard to the Settlement by Hiring and Service, it has this particularly bad Effect, that a good Character does not secure the Continuance of a good Place, because the Farmers are now getting into the Way of changing every 364 Days, in order to prevent the Man gaining a Settlement; and the Consequence is, that if he behaves ever so well there is hardly any Circumstance under which the Farmer will engage him. If it were not for that, the Man would remain for Years in the same Place, and there would be some Reward for his Conduct; but as it is now, you make it the Interest of all Parties that Men should change at the End of every Twelvemonth.

With respect to the Average Rate of Wages, which you have mentioned as 10s. a Week; how far would that apply to the different Parishes in the Country at large, as far as your Experience extends?

I think the Average is about 9s.; and for Lads of Twenty or Twenty-one, who can do as much as Men, they give them 4s. or 5s. a Week.

Do you think that they can be in Distress, receiving such Wages as those, if a considerable Portion of them are not out of Employ?

I think they cannot be otherwise than in Distress with the Wages I allude to. A young single Lad is obliged to pay 1s. to 1s. 6d. a Week for his Lodging and Washing; and after that, what is left? 4s. or 3s. a Week is very little.

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Do you not think, that if the Circumstances of the Peasantry were improved it would give you an Opportunity of punishing them by Mulcts, which you do not now possess?

Yes; but as long as the Population is so great I do not see how it is possible to do that, because the Farmer, of course, will get his Work done at the cheapest Rate that he can.

Does it occur to you, that by means of Competition the Farmers get their Work done very cheaply?

Certainly they do. Your Lordships are aware, that in consequence of the Settlement by Service we have this Inconvenience: a Gentleman takes a Footman out of another Family; the Man resides with him perhaps for a Twelvemonth; when he has got this Settlement, he does not care how he behaves; he says, "I know my Master must keep me either as his Footman or as his Pauper, and therefore I am at liberty to get drunk, or behave how I please." I have known that to take place repeatedly. I would mention, as another Illustration, the Case of a labouring Man to whom I was speaking, with whom I found some Fault. I told him, "If you do not behave better, I must discharge you." He was impertinent; and I said, "You shall not remain in my Service; I shall discharge you." He said, "You will please to remember that you discharge me; I do not leave you." Meaning to say, "I have a good Claim upon the Parish notwithstanding." In point of fact, the Man went to the Parish, and is supported by them. I will state what happened in the Parish of Southstroke. A Man, who was a Blacksmith by Trade, had been supported, with his numerous Family, a good many Years, by the Parish, under pretence that he could not get Work; and in consequence of the Representations they made to myself, I insisted upon the Overseers looking out, and endeavouring to get him a Place. The Man went to the Place which had been procured for him, and which was worth 15s. or 18s. a Week. As soon as he got to the Master Blacksmith, he said to him, "So the Overseer has been to you;" to which the Answer was, "Yes." "Well," says this Fellow, "If you want all your Horses lamed, you had better employ me; but if not, you had better let me go away again." The Answer was, "I do not want my Horses lamed, and therefore you had better go back again." The Man went back, and was kept as before, by his Parish. I mention that to shew the Way in which the Poor Laws are administered in that Part of the Country. Upon a subsequent Occasion he was brought before me, and I sent him to the Tread Mill.

Is he now in Prison, or has he come out?

No; he is now out.

What has been his Conduct since he came out?

I have not had an Opportunity of hearing; he is very respectably connected, and I think his Family have kept him a good deal.

Then that has had the Effect of taking him off the Parish?

I think it has.

Is there any thing else that you wish to state to the Committee upon this Subject?

[366]

Your Lordships, perhaps, are not aware Shopkeepers are necessarily much interested in raising the Poor's Rates, and that in a vast Number of the Country Parishes they are the Overseers appointed. It is obvious, that the more Money comes out of the Rate Payer's Pocket into the Labourer's Pocket the more Money he can lay out at the Shop; and the Shopkeeper, being frequently the Overseer at the same Time, has the Means of favouring those Paupers who deal at his Shop, in preference to any other Paupers. I have had so many Complaints upon this Subject, that I have made it a Rule never to appoint a Shopkeeper Overseer; but it is done to a great Extent, and it is a Source of great Evil. There is a great Difficulty in finding Overseers, from the Clause in the Act of Parliament which makes it not imperative upon any Individual to act when he does not live in the Parish. I allude to the 59 George 3. In the Parish in which I reside the same Man is Overseer, Churchwarden, and Surveyor of the Roads, because almost every other Tenant of the Land lives in the adjoining Parish. It is a Case of great Hardship; and if the Limits within which Men must live in order to be Overseers were a little widened it would furnish a great many more People.

You stated that Two Men came home to your Parish, who, you said, had been absent for many Years; was it known where they had been?

I believe they had been in Surrey.

Was it known whether they came home in consequence of being turned off from their Work in consequence of the Rise of Wages?

We could know nothing but what the Men said. All they said was, "Here we are; we are out of Work, and we know that we belong to this Parish, and you must give us Work, or keep us." There is always a good deal of Intimidation on the Part of the Overseers, and therefore they do not care to examine very narrowly into Matters of this sort; they endeavoured, in this Case, to bribe the Men to go away again; and I know similar Cases frequently occur.

What do you mean by Intimidation on the Part of the Overseers?

I mean, that when Paupers come to the Overseers, if they put on a threatening Attitude the Overseers frequently give them Relief, which they would not do if they did not put on that threatening Manner.

Do you mean as to their Persons?

Not to their Persons only, but more especially to their Ricks and Barns, and so on; and I have known several instances in my Neighbourhood of Overseers being assaulted for not admitting the Claim of a Pauper. It is a frequent Custom to insult the Overseers, in a very scandalous Way, and not always sufficiently checked by the Magistrates. That of course discourages the Overseers; because, if a respectable Man is had up to the Petty Sessions, and there confronted with a Pauper, if he is abused by the Paupers, and not sufficiently supported by the Magistrates, the Overseer says, "The next Time I had better pay this Man what he asks, instead of going before the Bench." Your Lordships are aware that in many Parts of the Country the Magistrates have no local Interest whatever in the Management of the Poor Laws, because Magistrates are appointed continually who have not local Property.

You mean Gentlemen who hire Residences in the Neighbourhood?

Who hire Residences, and who are not Proprietors, and consequently have no Interest in the Increase or Diminution of the Rates.

You say that the Overseers are frequently insulted and abused by the Paupers; does it not often happen that the Overseers use very harsh and improper Language to the Paupers?

As far as regards my own Knowledge, I should say that the Overseers are generally too liberal and too lenient to the Paupers; I think they are in the habit constantly of paying Sums of Money they ought not to pay, and that has been one of the great Sources of Complaint with the Magistrates. I should put as Examples the Case of the Labourer whom I alluded to before, who left me because he did not choose to work according to my Wishes, and another Labourer who would not work under the Gardener of a Friend of mine. Those Two Persons went to the Overseers and got Relief, notwithstanding the Overseers were aware of the Circumstances. Though the Magistrate may interfere to order Relief, he cannot interfere to check Relief.

Must not those Men be relieved although they may have acted improperly?

That is the Principle they go upon; but the Consequence of that Principle being admitted to such an Extent is, that a Man will never keep his Place unless it just happens to suit him.

Do you think it would be a good Principle to act upon, not to give Relief to a Man under any Circumstances who had put himself out of work by Misconduct?

It would be extremely difficult to lay down any Rule of that sort; but there are many Cases in which the Overseer ought to be made responsible for giving Relief, in which he is not now responsible.

In those Cases in which the Overseers have been abused, has it been the Overseers themselves, or the Assistant Overseers?

The Overseers themselves.

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Have you ever observed any Difference in the Conduct of the Paupers towards Assistant Overseers and towards the Overseers themselves?

No; they (the Assistant Overseers) are not very common, in consequence of the Objection I mentioned before.

Are you aware whether the Assistant Overseers are more apt to look narrowly into Matters than the Overseers themselves?

Generally speaking, they are perhaps even more liberal than the Overseers are. When a Man behaves ill to an Overseer, it is extremely difficult to punish him in any way; the only thing that the Overseer can do is to bring the Complaint before a Magistrate; and if the Magistrate interferes, all that he can do is to commit the Man for Trial at the Sessions. Under a late Law, such Offences can be punished by Two Magistrates, if they amount to an actual Assault; but for violent threatening and abusive Language I know of no Remedy but binding a Man to be of good Behaviour, or sending him to be tried at the Sessions, if the Case be a very aggravated one. I should anxiously desire to impress upon your Lordships, that nothing can check the constantly increasing Population, and the Demoralization of the Lower Classes, except a radical Alteration of the Laws of Bastardy, and the Abolition of Settlements by Hiring or Service.

Would you introduce the Principle of Residence?

Certainly not. If that is introduced, the Consequence will be, that every Parish that is now well managed will be overrun by Persons coming in from other Parishes.

Will not that be the Fault of the Proprietors?

No; there are too many Cottages built by small Renters of Land, who have only an Interest in letting the Cottage as high as they can to any Person who may come to take it, and perhaps at the same Time securing Customers to their Shop or Trade.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Thomas G. B. Estcourt Esq. a Member of the House of Commons, attending, is called in, and examined as follows:

Are you able to state to the Committee the Effect which has been produced upon certain Portions of Population in Gloucestershire, by letting them have small Allotments of Land?

In both Gloucestershire and Wiltshire. The Parishes adjoin; and I shall speak of them both together. I think it was about the Year 1798 that my Father commenced the System of letting small Portions of Land to the Cottagers in the adjoining Parishes of Shipton Moyne, in Gloucestershire, and Long Newnton, in Wiltshire; and from that Time up to the present Period it has been pursued. I have also adopted, since about the Year 1810 or 1812, the letting small Portions of Land in a similar Manner to the Poor of Ashley, which adjoins Long Newnton, and to the Poor in Two Tithings of the Parish of Bishops Cannings, which is near Devizes; and, generally speaking, I should say that the whole has been attended with perfect Success as materially diminishing the Poor's Rates of those Parishes, and rendering that Part of the Population which has been in the Occupation of Land more happy and more comfortable, from the Possession of it, than would probably otherwise have been the Case. I draw that Conclusion from other Persons of the same Description in all those Parishes being at present under Circumstances very different from those who have been in the Occupation of Land. Such is the general Impression upon my Mind. In regard to any Particulars, perhaps the easier Mode will be, to refer your Lordships to a Statement which I delivered in to the Committee of the House of Commons in 1817. Upon looking it over this Morning, I find that the Facts which have occurred since that Period correspond precisely with those there related, and that the Anticipations then formed have been fully realized. That Statement is contained in Page 175 of the Report of the Committee on the Poor Laws in 1817.

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The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

"At Lady Day 1811 a Cottage Farm was instituted by a private Individual in the Parish of Bishops Cannings, in the County of Wilts; it is situated at about Half a Mile from the Residence of the Occupiers; the Soil is a sandy Loam, well calculated for Cultivation by the Spade, and for the Production of Garden Vegetables, but requiring the Aid of Manure to render it very fertile. The Quantity of Land occupied by each Tenant is from a Quarter to Half an Acre; the Rent is at the Rate of Two Guineas per Acre; the Landlord paying Tithe and Taxes of every Description; the Tenure is from Year to Year; and the only Conditions are, first, that the Tenant shall receive no Parochial Relief; and secondly, that he shall, on the appointed Day in November in each Year, pay the Year's Rent due at the preceding Michaelmas. The Effect of this Plan has been, in the Opinion of the Overseers, and of those most competent to form a correct Judgment, highly beneficial, inasmuch as by this Means many industrious Individuals have been enabled to relinquish the Parochial Relief to which the Maintenance of large Families had obliged them to have recourse; and others have entirely escaped the painful Necessity of becoming Dependants in any degree on the Poor's Rate. There are at present Thirteen Tenants, each of whom occupies Half an Acre; and Nineteen, each in the Occupation of a Quarter of an Acre. Three Tenants have since 1811 relinquished their Allotments, in consequence of their becoming Farmers or Gardeners upon a much larger Scale; and Two have been obliged to quit, in consequence of their having failed to comply with the Conditions upon which they were admitted. The Places of the Five were, however, immediately filled, as the Vacancies occurred. Of the Thirty-two Families, consisting of One hundred and fifty Individuals, at present in Occupation, and thus creditably and laudably maintaining themselves, none have failed in the strictest Observance of either of the Conditions upon which they took their Land; and it may be as satisfactory to the Committee to be informed, as it is gratifying to the Individual making the Communication to state, that the Conduct of these industrious People has been, during the whole Period of their Tenantry, altogether unimpeachable."

Can you give in any Statement of the Profit to those Individuals from their Allotments per Acre?

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It is impossible to state that, because the Profit must vary according to the Skill with which each Person cultivates his small Portion of Land. It will be perhaps sufficient to state, that in that Part which has been under my own Observation those Persons who have been in the Occupation of the Land have never required Parochial Relief; whereas Persons of the same Description, without Land, have required it to a very large Amount. In the instance of One of them, who, from a very untoward Circumstance, being reduced to the Necessity of obtaining for a short Period Assistance from the Parish, thereby becoming disqualified for holding the Land, and being in consequence removed from his Occupation, he immediately became a Charge upon the Parish, and from that Time to the present has been in the constant Receipt of Parochial Relief; and I am confident he could not have existed without the Receipt of such Assistance. I have again, at his earnest Request, admitted him into the Occupation of the same Quantity of Land that he had before; and I have every Reason to believe that as soon as the Season arrives for digging his Potatoes he will be again enabled to maintain his Family without any Assistance from the Poor's Rate. Perhaps your Lordships would like to know what is the Number of Allotments of Land in each of these Places. In Ashley the whole Parish has a Population of 103 Individuals, and I have Eight Allotments; in the Parish of Long Newnton, where the Population is 306, I have Thirty-one Allotments; in Shipton Moyne, where the Population is 390, I have Twenty-nine Allotments; in Bishops Cannings, where the Population is 1,224, I have Twelve Allotments; and in the Chapelry of Saint James, a Tithing in the same Parish, where the Population is 1,265, I have Thirty-five Allotments; so that the Number of Allotments is but small in each of the Places; but, in addition to this, there is a small Portion of Land that is let out to the Poor of Tetbury, and they have been in the Occupation about Fifteen Years; and precisely the same Result, with regard to those Individuals, has attended that Occupation of Land that has attended those in the small Agricultural Parishes in the immediate Neighbourhood of that Town; so that I think I may say that it has been perfectly satisfactory in all Particulars. I ought, however, to state, that in Long Newnton, the Parish in which my Father first introduced this System, being during the latter Part of his Life infirm, and perhaps not so strict in the Management of it as he had been before, some of the Cottage Tenants, by accidental Circumstances, became possessed of much larger Quantities of Land than he had let to them before, or than I have ever let; some to the Extent of Three or Four Acres, and many were in Possession of from an Acre and a Half to Two Acres and a Half. So far as that has occurred, I think it has been productive of Inconvenience; some of them have got larger Profits than was absolutely necessary to remove them from the Situation of Parochial Poor, and I think a considerable Portion of those have been tempted to carry those increased Profits to the Alehouse, and to spend them improperly; others of them, whose Families in Lapse of Time have gone off from them, and left them with perhaps only One Child to maintain instead of a large Family, have got such Profits as enabled them to subsist without having recourse to any Labour whatever; and the Consequence is, that the Farmers, who require the Assistance of Labourers in those small Parishes more particularly, are dissatisfied with the System, and it is not so popular with them as it would be provided it was only made use of as a Resource in lieu of Poor's Rates. The Parish of Long Newnton is the Parish to which I now allude. In the other Parishes, in which I have strictly adhered to the System, I have never heard any Complaint of that sort; and in the Chapelry of Saint James it has always been managed by the Farmers themselves; it is extremely popular with them; and it is their Opinion that it has occasioned a Saving to the Parish, though there are only Thirty-five Allotments, of upwards of 200l. a Year.

Is the Rent you receive the same as the Rent you receive from the Farmers for Land of the same Quality?

It is rather more than I receive from the Farmers, but I pay all Tithes and Taxes; but independently of that it is much the same —certainly not more. My Object, in fact, is to make the Rent precisely the same that the Farmer's Rent is. I do not conceive it ought to be a Source of Revenue to the Landlord, because if he attains the Object I had in view he has attained quite sufficient Advantage, without increasing the Amount of his Income.

What is the Extent of each Allotment?

Our Plan was, that the Limits of it should be from One Acre to a Quarter of an Acre; but owing to the Irregularities to which I have before referred, in the Parish of Long Newnton and in the adjoining Parish of Shipton, it varies from something under a Quarter of an Acre to the Extent of Two Acres and a Half; but my own Opinion, from the Experience I have had, is, that it should never exceed One Acre, and I think it should never be less than Half an Acre; I think a Quarter of an Acre is too small.

Do they manage to keep the Land under Crop every Year?

Yes, they do.

Is it all Potatoes, or is there any Variety?

In the Northern Part of Wiltshire they grow some Wheat, but where that is the Case there is generally a worse apparent System of Farming carried on. Where they confine themselves to Potatoes, the Crops are generally better, and the Farm is in a more flourishing State. I give a Premium to the Man that has the best Crop of Potatoes, as an Inducement to them to cultivate that Vegetable more than any thing else; it is more immediately beneficial to the Family than Corn; and we know that if Land in that Part of the Kingdom is frequently sown with Wheat, the Wheat becomes very poor and insufficient in Crop; but, on the other hand, if Potatoes are very frequently cultivated, and there is a good deal of Manure, the Return is very considerable.

Is Barley much cultivated in that Neighbourhood?

Yes, it is; but it is not a Barley Country.

Have the Cottagers of whom you are speaking found any Difficulty in procuring Manure for as much as One Acre of Garden Ground?

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I think the Cottagers never find any Difficulty in procuring a sufficient Quantity of Manure for that Portion of the Acre that must necessarily be manured in the Year; but I think they would find a Difficulty in procuring as much as would be necessary to manure the whole Acre; and it is impossible that the same Land will produce the same Vegetable every Year for a very great Number of Years, without some Art that probably the Cottagers would be unable to supply.

In your Opinion, would they always be enabled to provide sufficient for Half an Acre?

Quite.

Do they keep Pigs?

A large Proportion of them keep Pigs. With respect to the Subject of Manure, I observed last Summer a Result which was whimsical, and satisfactory to a certain degree. I went to a Market Gardener's Garden in the Neighbourhood of Devizes, and I was inquiring about the Mode in which he got Manure, and he shewed me some Land that was cultivated with Potatoes, which had a very abundant Crop. He told me that he had manured it in the following Way: that he had trenched the Land in widish Trenches; that before planting the Potatoes he had got Nettles from the Neighbourhood, and had laid them a considerable Thickness in the Furrow, that then upon the Nettles he had planted his Potatoes; that he had done so many Years, and that invariably he had found that they had produced a much larger Crop than any other sort of Manure that he had made use of. That was only in the course of the last Summer, and therefore I have had no Opportunity of trying an Experiment upon it yet.

Do you prescribe any Routine of Crops to your Tenants?

No; I leave it to themselves. I have but Three Conditions: one is, that they shall receive no Relief from the Parish; another is, that they shall pay the Rent on the Day it is due; and the third is, that they shall quit if they are guilty of any Offence for which they shall become liable to Fine or Imprisonment; and I am happy to say that no instance of that ever occurred, to my Knowledge, excepting one, in which a Man had stolen some Turnips from a neighbouring Portion of Land; that was represented to me, and of course I immediately turned him out.

Do those Individuals who have a larger Allotment of Land, amounting to an Acre or upwards, keep a Cow?

None of them.

Do you permit them to grow Wheat?

Yes, if they like it.

Do any of them cultivate Cabbages?

I have observed in many instances a Row of Cabbages surrounding the Wheat on the Edge of the Path, between the Wheat Land and the other Land. I think the Cabbages are merely for their own Use.

Do you make any Selection of the Persons to whom you let the Allotments?

In the Neighbourhood of Devizes, I leave it entirely to the Farmers to make the Selection for me; but then I always have the Approval; I always require that they should be Men of good Character.

Would you approve of extending the System of Allotments to the whole of the Labourers of the Parish, subject to the same Conditions that you now impose?

I should not, for this Reason: if it were made universal, a great deal of the Stimulus would be lost. I think the making a Selection renders it an Object of great Desire; and many of those in the Possession of it, I have no doubt, exert themselves to retain Possession, not so much from an Anxiety to maintain themselves without the Assistance of the Poor's Rate, as to keep Possession of that which they know is desired by some other Person. I am afraid that is a Feeling which is very general among Mankind; and I think it probable that it operates to a very considerable Extent in that as well as in other Classes of Society.

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Can you speak as to the Effect of this upon the Poor's Rates in any of the Parishes in Gloucestershire or Wiltshire?

I have brought a Return of the State of the Poor's Rate in the Parish of Long Newnton for the last Thirty Years.

The same is delivered in and read, and is as follows:

To what Cause do you attribute the Rise in 1816, and the subsequent Decrease?

I am not aware of any particular Cause that should have occasioned the Rise, or indeed the Decrease.

Was not 1816 a Year of the greatest Agricultural Pressure of any that has been experienced; and was it not in the following Year that 260 Banks broke, out of 700?

Probably that may have been the Case.

Would not that affect the general System of Agriculture through the Kingdom?

I think, very probably, it would. I think it is more than probable that to that Cause we may assign the Increase in the Year 1816; because I observed, in 1815 it was 197, and in 1817 only 204, and the Year 1817 was the Year that the Committee sat in the House of Commons upon the Poor Laws in consequence of the excessive State of Distress.

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What has been the usual Rate of Labourer's Wages in that Neighbourhood for the last Year or Two?

I think in the Winter the Average is 8s. a Week, and in the Summer about 9s. or 10s.

Is it usual to let out Work by the Piece?

Very usual.

Are there many employed as Day Labourers?

There are a great many employed as Day Labourers, but there are a good many employed also at Piece Work; and where they are employed at Piece Work the Wages are considerably more. By Piece Work a good Labourer may earn in that Parish from 10s. to 15s. a Week; whilst the same Labourer, at Day Work, would not earn more than 9s. and his Beer, which is commonly estimated at 1s. 6d. a Week.

Is there any Preference given to married Men over single Men in the Selection of those Labourers?

I think not, in that Parish; but when I say not in that Parish, I must confine that Answer to that Parish only. I am afraid that in the adjoining Parishes, and in the central Parts of Wiltshire, the Evil arising from the Selection of married Men is very considerable.

Are there any Labourers out of Employment in that Parish?

I am not aware of any; and it is the Opinion of an intelligent Farmer there, that if the Farmers employed none but their own Parishioners there would be none out of Employment at any Time, and in the Summer that there would certainly not be sufficient to execute the Work that is required to be done in the Parish.

Can you state the Number of Acres in the Parish, and the Amount of the Population?

I think about 3,000 Acres, and the Population in 1821 was 306.

Is there any Employment for the Women and Children?

None. Formerly it was within the Reach of the Manufacturing District of Gloucester, and the Women and Children were constantly employed in Spinning; that is now totally lost.

What are the Rents of the Cottages in the Parish generally?

From 3l. to 30s. but the Average Rate is about 50s.

Are the Cottages in the Hands of the large Proprietors, or in the Hands of small Tradesmen?

They are all of them in the Hands of the large Proprietors.

Can you state the Effect upon the Morals of the People, and their Religious Principles, since this Plan has been adopted?

I am not prepared to answer that Question, for I have not resided in that Neighbourhood myself; but I should say, generally, that they are a Moral People, and I believe they are attentive to their Religious Duties. As to the general State of the Apparel and Cottages of the Poor in the Parish of Long Newnton, I think it is superior to that of any other Parish that I know; and from that one may infer that they are in a State of comparative Ease.

Has the Population increased rapidly in that Parish?

No, I am not aware that it has.

Do early Marriages take place there now?

Yes, they do; very early Marriages.

More so than in the neighbouring Districts?

I think much the same.

Is there any Benefit Society there?

At Tetbury I believe there are several, but none in the Parish.

Has it come to your Knowledge that those People have placed any of their Savings in Benefit Societies or in Savings Banks?

I believe a very small Quantity.

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When those Persons had larger Allotments of Land, did any of them keep Cows?

None of them; they had no Convenience for keeping Cows, nor had they any Pasture Land.

When they had an Acre and a Half or Two Acres, did they cultivate that entirely with the Spade, or did they employ the Plough?

Professedly they cultivate under the Spade, but, occasionally, I think they get their Masters to give them some Assistance in ploughing it.

You do not interfere in that Matter?

Not at all. I have always purposely avoided much Interference; because I think it creates a Suspicion that that which is done is done for my Benefit, and not for the Benefit of the poor People to whom the Land is let.

Can you speak as to the Distance from their Cottages to which it answers to them to cultivate those Allotments?

I think any Distance within a Mile; indeed I know many instances where poor People have gladly rented Land and gone Three Miles.

Is not the Advantage of the Land proportionate to the Proximity of the Land, from the Facility of procuring Manure and carrying it?

I think it is of very great Advantage that it should be near their Residence; but I do not know that it is in proportion to the Proximity.

How do they get the Carriage done?

I think it is generally an Arrangement between themselves and some kind Friend. Some of them have a Horse and Cart of their own; some get the Assistance of Neighbours; and the Farmers are not disinclined to give them a little Assistance, if they behave well in their Place. I was asked with regard to the Rate of Wages in the Parish of Long Newnton; there is a considerable Difference between the Rate of Wages in that Part of Wiltshire and the Rate of Wages in the central Part of Wiltshire; in the central and Southern Part the Wages are considerably lower than they are in the Northern. For a great length of Time, in both Parts, it has been an invariable Practice of Overseers, where Persons are receiving a very low Rate of Wages, and requiring much more than their Wages to maintain their Families, to make up the Difference out of the Poor's Rates; and the Consequence has been, that in some of those Parishes they have reduced the Wages to a very low Amount; and I am sorry to say that to that we in a great Measure attribute the unfortunate State of Insurrection in which the Southern Part of the Country was during the last Autumn. I have brought with me a Return which was prepared by The Reverend Mr. Hodson, the Chaplain of the County Gaol of Wiltshire, with respect to 101 Persons who were committed to Prison, and tried at the late Special Commission for the County of Wilts, stating the Names of the Individuals, their Age and Profession, also the Parish in which they resided, and the Rate of Wages they received Weekly, and the Amount of Parish Relief they received in addition. The Persons to whom it relates came from a Number of Parishes in the Southern Part of the County. It appears by this Return, that out of the 101 Individuals, One of them received 15s. per Week; One of them received 12s. per Week; One of them received 9s. per Week; Seventeen of them received 8s. per Week; One of them received 7s. 3d. per Week; Forty-eight of them received 7s. per Week; Three of them received 6s. 6d. per Week; Nine of them received 6s. per. Week; Eight of them received 5s. per Week; Five of them received 4s. per Week; Six of them received 3s. per Week, and One of them received 2s. 6d. per Week.

Will you have the goodness to deliver in that Document?

The same is delivered in, and laid upon the Table. (See Appendix.)

Have you had an Opportunity of observing, whether, in Cases where the Labourer's Wages are made up out of the Poor's Rates, they are managed as economically as where the Labourer receives the same Amount entirely in consequence of his Labour?

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Perhaps I am not a fair Judge of that, but I am inclined to believe that they are quite as economically managed; and the Wonder has always been to me, how it is possible that any Persons can manage so small a Sum as the Wages amount to so economically as the Poor do.

Is any Addition made to the Wages in Harvest?

There is, invariably, I believe.

To what Amount?

I think, upon the Average, 2s. a Week in addition; from Eight to Ten Shillings a Week is the Harvest Price, and they generally add a Pound for the Harvest Month.

Have you known the Wages of Harvest depressed by any Influx of Irish Labourers?

Not in that Part of Wiltshire or Gloucestershire with which I have any Connection; but I am perfectly aware that in many Parishes adjoining the great Road from Bristol to London, but nearer the Metropolis than those Parts of the Counties with which I am connected, it has the Effect of depressing the Amount of Wages. But, as I am asked that Question, I must state, that very great Injury is sustained by the County of Wilts from the Expence of conveying those Labourers from London to Bristol, and which has cost the County of Wilts during the last Ten Years, upon an Average, about 1,000l. a Year, the County deriving no Benefit whatever from the Services of those Individuals.

Would you say that Mr. Sturges Bourne's Bill has tended to improve or to reduce the Condition of the Labouring People?

I think, in the County of Wilts, it has had no Effect whatever, one way or the other.

Do you think that the Condition of the Labouring Class is better in the central Part of Wiltshire than in the Southern District, to which the Statement you have given applies?

I think it very much similar to the Southern Parts of the County.

Is Fuel very dear in that Part?

Not very dear. Coal may be obtained in small Quantities at about 1s. 2d. a Hundred. Wood is scarcely to be obtained in either the central Part, or, I believe, in the Southern Part.

Should you say that the Condition of the People in the Parish of Shipton, in Gloucestershire, is better than in the Parish of Long Newnton, in Wiltshire, to which you have applied your Statement?

I think not. I think that the State of the Poor in the Parish of Shipton Moyne, in Gloucestershire, corresponds so much with the State of the Poor in the Parish of Long Newnton, as that what I state with reference to the latter would apply very much to that of the former.

Have there been many Manufactures in that Part of the Country?

It is about Seven Miles from the nearest large Manufactory in Gloucestershire.

Do you consider that Manufactory to be of late Years in a declining Condition?

I think not; I believe it is in a flourishing State; but as the Manufactures are now entirely carried on in Factories, the Manufacture may be said to be on the Decline with reference to all Parishes in the Vicinity; and I believe that we are suffering from the total Loss of that Employment which used to be furnished to the adjoining Parishes in Spinning.

What kind of Manufacture is carried on in that Neighbourhood?

The Manufacture of Cloth of the finest Quality.

Have you turned your Attention to the Amount paid out of the Poor's Rates in aid of Wages?

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I frequently turn my Attention to the Subject; and I have some Statements with respect to Three Parishes in Wiltshire, and One in Nottinghamshire in which I have always understood that that injurious Practice does not prevail at all. In the Three Parishes in Wiltshire it does prevail, and though not to the Extent I had expected, I believe the injurious Consequence is the same as if it were to a much larger Extent; for where the Practice is in existence at all, it enables the Payer of Wages to satisfy the immediate Wants of the Labourer, by charging the Poor's Rate to any Extent that he may think fit; to abstract Wages from that Sum necessary to satisfy such immediate Wants; and thus to depress the nominal Amount of Wages, or, in other Words, the Sum which he pays to his working People for their Labour.

Will you have the goodness to deliver in those Statements?

The same are delivered in and read, and are as follow:

S. U. Salter, Churchwarden.

Remarks.

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Remarks.

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Is the Payment generally regulated by a Scale in Wiltshire?

Very generally by a Scale.

Has the Question of the Legality ever been agitated in Wiltshire?

I believe it has never been agitated; but I believe there is not a Magistrate that is not aware that it is illegal. At a late Quarter Session in the County of Wilts a Proposition was made to the Magistrates to come to a Resolution not to pass any Overseer's Accounts which contained any Charge of that Description; but that Proposition was not acceded to, because it was considered, that before a Measure so strong as that could be adopted some Means must be afforded to the Overseers to find Employment for those Labourers that would necessarily be thrown out of Work.

Did the Resolution go to refuse the Payment in Cases where the Labourers were wholly employed by the Parish, or only in Cases where the Wages were made up to the Labourers by the Parish?

Only to where the Wages were made up out of the Poor's Rates.

Why was it then necessary to afford the Means of employing the Poor?

Because it was considered that the Effect would be to throw out of Employment the married Labourers with large Families; and it was supposed that those Labourers were, in Agricultural Parishes, generally speaking, the People of the best Character, who had been probably longest in their Employment. But where no Part of the Wages were to be paid out of the Poor's Rates, it was clear that the Farmers would be unwilling or unable to continue those People in their Employment, when young and single Men might be obtained at Wages considerably lower; and in Wiltshire we know of no Means that the Overseers would have of employing those married Men, assumed to be Men of good Character, excepting in that sort of Work in which single Men had been employed, and which was notoriously given to those single Men for the Purpose of deterring them from continuing to be a Charge upon the Poor's Rates, and as much as possible to induce them to find Employment for themselves, but which, as they continued to be a Charge upon the Parish, we inferred that it was not possible for them to do.

Would not the Effect of putting a Stop to the Practice of paying Part of the Wages out of the Poor's Rates be, to equalize the Wages of the married and single Men according to the Value of the Work which they do?

I think it would; but if the Work to be found by the Occupiers of the Soil in their ordinary Cultivation of the Land was insufficient to employ the whole of the Working Population, some Means, not at present known, must be devised for employing those that could not be occupied in that Way.

Is it your Opinion, then, that a Superabundance of Population beyond the present Means of Employment exists?

Very generally so, but not always.

Do you believe that if Capital could be found such Improvement would take place in the Cultivation of the Land as would afford Employment to the whole of that Population at present superabundant?

I am not prepared to answer that Question; but so long as Agriculture is not conducted on the same Principles on which Horticulture is conducted, I am led to infer that there might be a greater Quantity of Capital employed, and perhaps of Human Labour, with Advantage.

Then you do not believe that we have arrived at that Point when it is necessary to resort to Foreign Countries for the Employment of our Labouring Population?

I certainly do not think it is. I think it probable that a temporary Convenience might arise from the Adoption of Emigration, but I am far from admitting that the Burden of Population is so great as to render Emigration absolutely necessary.

If by any temporary Expedient the present Weight of the superabundant Population were removed, are you of Opinion that by a proper Recurrence to the just Administration of the Poor Laws such future Inconvenience would be checked, if not altogether prevented?

[78]

I think, that if an Arrangement was to take place in the Poor Laws, which would render the future Administration of them better than that which now prevails, the Evil now complained of might without Difficulty be remedied, even without having recourse to any temporary Expedient. I am not prepared to say what I consider would be the Result of the Adoption of a temporary Expedient of a violent Nature; I mean the Removal of a large Proportion of the Population; but unless that Expedient was applied to a very considerable Extent, I apprehend that the Effect would not be felt at all in the first instance, and therefore I should rather see such Alterations made as would amend the Poor Laws, than that at present any Application should be made to those temporary Expedients.

Without such a violent Expedient as the Removal of the Poor, do you think that any Good could be obtained by the Cultivation of the Waste Lands in different Parts of the Country?

[379]

I am not aware where those Wastes are situated, of which I hear a great deal, unless Reference be made to the Royal Forests. I think, in the Part of the Country with which I am acquainted, the first Step to take would be to abolish that injurious System of the Payment of Wages that I have talked of; but before that is done I think it essentially necessary that a Law should pass, enabling the Majority of a Parish Vestry, duly assembled for the Purpose, to appropriate the Parish Funds without being subject to any Appeal whatever. Should such a Law as that pass, the Majority of the Vestry would then be enabled to take prompt and effectual Means for providing Occupation for the Poor. After that was accomplished, I think there are many other Alterations that would essentially serve to improve the Condition of the Lower Class of People; and that, added to the furnishing them with constant Employment, would, in my Opinion, tend to improve their Condition and their Morality, and I think would very much tend to mitigate the Suffering that is complained of now. I allude to those Laws which place the Labourers in a different Situation from that of other Persons, who bring their Goods to Market, and sell them without Control, and to the Laws relating to Bastardy. With regard to the first, I think great Injury arises from that Code of Laws that gives the Intervention of a Justice of the Peace between the Labourer and his Employer. Every Act of Misconduct on the Part of the Servant instead of being punished in the Way in which Misconduct in other Servants is punished, namely, by being dismissed, and his Character affected, is punished by his being conveyed to a Magistrate, who probably is reduced to the Necessity of sending that Person to Gaol. The Consequence of which is, that a Question is made as to the Justice or Injustice of the Decision of the Magistrate. The Delinquent is looked upon as oppressed; he is commiserated; and when he comes out of Gaol he is considered to have expiated his Offence; but the Communications which he has had with other Prisoners, in every instance in which I have been able to make any Observation, are extremely detrimental. Nothing appears to me now, from the excessive Extent of our Legislation of late Years, to be left to Character; a Punishment is provided for every petty Offence that the Lower Class of People can be guilty of, and I believe that the most injurious Consequences have arisen from that Circumstance. In order to explain myself, I would take the Liberty of suggesting to your Lordships that a Labouring Servant might be placed upon the same Footing with any Domestic in your Lordships Service. If a Man, who is receiving the small Wages of which we all complain, had made an Engagement to work for any given length of Time with an Employer, when the Period of the Year came that better Wages could be obtained, he would naturally go to his Master, and he would complain of the Smallness of his Wages, and state their Insufficiency for the Maintenance of his Family: he would desire either an Increase of Wages or to be dismissed. If both were refused, he would very naturally remove himself from that Service, and procure Service where Wages were better. The Apprehension on the Part of the Farmers, as often mentioned to me, is, that if such were the Case at trying Seasons of the Year, for instance in catching Weather in the Harvest Time, they would lose their Servants, provided they had the Power of leaving them when they pleased. In reply, I have always asked this Question: "Why do you suppose they would leave you under those Circumstances?" "They have always said they would leave us, because we would-not give them greater Wages." "But, supposing you did give them greater Wages, do you think they would then stay?" "Yes;" they said they thought there was no Reason why they should not stay. "Well; but would the Wages you would have to give be very extravagant?" "Yes; they would be a great deal higher than those at present given." "But surely not higher than those which your Neighbours would give, or than the Labour would be worth?" They said no; they did not suppose they would; but they should be obliged to give as much as any Person in the Neighbourhood would give. This has always appeared to me to be the Standard of the Wages that they ought to give, and not that which is much less than the Labour of a good Workman would be worth. The Consequence of this would be, that if the Farmer found that he had not the Means by Law of retaining in his Service an unfortunate Labourer at inadequate Wages, and that he was obliged to give a very considerable Sum of Money, he would of course determine with himself that he would employ no Person that he could not depend upon; and when a Man came to him for Employment, the first Question that he would ask of him would be, where he came from, and who there is that would answer for his Character. The Moment that we have arrived at that Point, Character would be of some Value. At the present Moment, I can state, that, in the County of Wilts and the adjoining Counties, the Character of a poor Man is of no Value at all; and that any Labouring Man, who is strong, however bad his Character, who will work for a smaller Sum than a Man of good Character, will be as readily employed now as a Man of good Character, because the Employer considers that in the Tread Mill he has the Remedy against his Servant's Misconduct. Therefore I consider that the first Step towards the Improvement of the Lower Classes would be, to raise their Character, by making their Engagements and Continuance in their Service dependent upon their Character and their Conduct, which is not the Case at present.

What Occupation do you contemplate could be found for the Labouring Classes, if the Parish Vestries were allowed to apply their Funds as they might deem expedient, without any Appeal?

I think Spade Husbandry, to a very great Extent.

Do not you think that the low Price of Wages, arising from the Superabundance of Labourers, combined with the Necessity under which the Parish lie to maintain the Labourer and his Family, very much contribute to produce the little Value of Character?

I think in a great measure it does; but I think that both the one and the other arise from the Exercise of Control under legal Authority, instead of exercising a Control dependent upon Character.

Does not the Law of Settlement very much prevent the Operation of Character, by rendering the Labourers more dependent upon the Farmers of their Parish, or upon the Vestry Regulations?

I think the Law of Settlement, except as connected with that upon which I have troubled your Lordships, does not materially affect Character; but if it was intended, by any Legislative Enactment, to do that which I urge, I think it would become essentially necessary to alter the Law of Settlement, so as to enable the Labouring Population to carry to a fair Market the only Article they have to offer, namely, their Labour; and with that view I think it quite essential that the Law of Settlement should be altered, so far as to repeal the whole of the Statutes relating to Settlement by Hiring and Service; and I think that it is consistent with Common Sense, that that which has been called gaining a Settlement by such Contingencies as Hiring and Service should be abolished, because, although it is called gaining a Settlement, it is in fact a Deprivation of the Settlement to which the Individual is most naturally and most nearly attached; and, besides that, it always has appeared to me to be consistent with good Sense that the Settlement of every Individual should have Relation to his Connection, in some way or another, with the Soil, such as by Ownership or by renting, or by some Act or another which has Relation to the Soil. All other Attachments are transitory, and appear to me to be accidental.

You have stated that the first Mode of Occupation that you would propose would be Spade Husbandry to a considerable Extent; will you state under what Regulations you would propose that that should be adopted?

[380]

I have never applied my Mind to the Details of it, and therefore I am not prepared to state that; but I think the Conditions attendant upon that must very much depend upon the Country in which it is practised.

Have you any Doubt that it could be beneficially put into Practice, so as to remunerate the Parish for the Expenditure?

I have no Doubt the Parish might be remunerated to a considerable Extent; but I am not prepared to say, that, in the present State of the Agricultural World, they would be prepared to avail themselves of it to the Extent that some People might consider to be beneficial, because the Expence of cultivating an Acre of Land by the Spade is considerably more than that of ploughing it.

You state that another great Evil of the present Law is the Bastardy Laws; will you have the goodness to state in what respect you consider them an Evil, and how you think they might be remedied?

[381]

I think them a very great Evil, as having tended very much to the Increase of Immorality. Under the Bastardy Laws, as a Bastard is certain of being maintained either by the Parish or by the Father, one of the Inconveniences resulting from having Bastard Children is altogether removed from the Female; I think that might be very much remedied by an Alteration that should make the Mother responsible for the Maintenance of the Child, instead of the Father; and if I was to state the Alterations that I think would be desirable, it would be, in the first place, as I stated just now, to make the Mother responsible for the Maintenance of the Child; to deprive that Child of all those Benefits that a legitimate Child possesses, as far as parochial Advantages go, until that Child, by its own Act, had gained a Settlement, and had acquired the Advantages which legitimate Children possess. If it is asked, How is the Child to be maintained in the Case of the Mother dying, or in the Case of excessive Sickness, and so forth? the only Answer would be, That it must be treated as a Foreigner would be treated — as casual Poor. With regard to the Father, I think we increase the Evil; because we now charge the Father with a Sum of Money, insufficient for the Maintenance of the Child, but quite sufficient to relieve his Conscience from any Regret, even at having been the Father of a Child that is likely to bring Distress upon the Mother of it; he considers himself as completely white-washed if he pays a given Sum Weekly for the Maintenance; but the Consequence of that is, also, that if the Father becomes distressed for Want of Labour and Wages, he runs into Debt to the Parish; and then having a considerable Sum of Money to make up, he is obliged to flee his Parish, and absent himself for a considerable length of Time, perhaps. But then another Misfortune arises out of that: when the Sum of Money, by Accumulation, becomes a very great Debt, he then questions within himself, whether it is not better to come and surrender himself to his Parish, and undergo a short Punishment (that is, Imprisonment for Three Months,) or altogether to continue always from his Parish: if the Sum of Money be large, he generally decides that it is better to return to his Parish. If he has the Judgment that most of that Class of Persons have, to yield himself up about the latter Part of the Year, those Three Months are passed, in the improved Houses of Correction that now exist, not uncomfortably, and certainly very profitably; because, at the very Moment he puts his Feet into the Gaol, from that Moment his Debt becomes liquidated. Therefore the Law, as it now stands, is no Terror whatever to those who are of an immoral Disposition; nor do I believe it ever was intended as such, but that the Principle of the Law is, to provide Maintenance for the Bastard Child, and to indemnify the Parish against any Debts that may be incurred. According to my Mind, that is a very inconvenient Mode of managing the Subject; and I will state an instance that came within my Knowledge within these Three Years. In the House of Correction for Wiltshire there had been, in One Year, Sixty-eight Men confined under the Bastard Laws. I took some pains to ascertain what the Loss was that the Country and the Parishes sustained by those Sixty-eight Men, and I found that it amounted to upwards of 570l. Now your Lordships will see that it was no bad Bargain that these Sixty-eight Men made, to lie in the Prison a great Proportion during the Autumnal and Winter Months, thereby totally liquidating their Debts; the County and Parishes being of course left to suffer from the Loss. Therefore the Mode I would suggest of treating that would be, as far as the Mother is concerned, to make her responsible for the Maintenance of the Child; which I think would go far to deter her from the Commission of the Offence. With regard to the Father, I would treat his bringing upon the Parish the Charge and Maintenance of a Bastard Child, as a Misdemeanor, to be punished by Fine or Imprisonment; and therefore, whenever his Bastard Child, if it was every Year for Ten Years, 'till the Child could maintain itself, or if it was every Three Months, or every other Month, at every Period at which it became chargeable to the Parish, I would consider that Man as guilty of a Misdemeanor, and liable to be punished by Fine or Imprisonment. My Belief is, that if it was so treated the Number of Bastardy Cases would diminish very rapidly.

What do you contemplate for the Woman, in case of her being unable to provide for the Child, which it is reasonable to suppose would be very often the Case?

I should treat her exactly as I should treat a Widow Woman with One Child in a Foreign Parish; I should treat her and her Child as casual Poor.

Would it then be any Punishment upon her?

The Administration of the Poor Funds, by giving Relief to a Woman casually, would be very different from the Way in which it is now administered, by giving regular Weekly Pay; for she could not calculate upon any Relief at all; for the Parish might find her some Employment, and make her, out of her Earnings, provide for the Child. At the present Moment they can do no such thing. At the present Moment the Parish are obliged to pay that Sum of Money which the Father is ordered to furnish towards the Maintenance of the Child; and some Women that have Three or Four Bastard Children have a considerable Revenue arising from the Sum paid for their Maintenance.

In the event of the Woman refusing to exert herself for the Maintenance of the Child, would you not have to commit her to Prison?

I think a Provision of that sort might be similar to the Provision that is made in the Case of other Persons not maintaining their Families when they are enabled so to do.

Is it not your Opinion, that in the great Majority of Cases the ultimate Consequence would be, that the Woman would be committed to Prison for not maintaining the Child?

I think in many Cases it would, but not in the Majority of Cases. I think the large Majority of those Persons, knowing now that no Punishment will fall upon them, are heedless as to their Continency; but if they were punished by Imprisonment for the Non-maintenance of the Bastard Child, I suspect that the Fear of that would induce them, either to maintain their Bastard Child, or not so lightly as at present to yield to their Seducers.

Would not the Effect of your Proposition be to render the Father penally responsible?

Yes.

Do you not think that that Penal Law would become very much inoperative, from the Indisposition of the Parishes to prosecute, and the little immediate Interest they have in doing so?

I think not; because the Eyes of Overseers are pretty sharp with reference to Bastards, generally; and as still they would be liable to a Burden brought upon them in the Shape of casual Poor, it would be a great Object with them to get hold of the Father, supposing that the Law gave to them any Remedy in the Shape of Fine, by way of Exoneration from those Charges that might be brought upon them. I think, in the Enactment I propose, an Arrangement of that sort might be made, which would induce the Parishes to be vigilant with respect to the Punishment of the Father.

Then you would impose Fine as well as Imprisonment?

[382]

Yes. In fact I should make the Fine the primary Punishment; and in case of not being able to pay the Fine, I should impose Imprisonment; but I should give a very wide Discretion to Magistrates to impose either a moderate or heavy Fine; a Fine extending, perhaps, from 40s. to 40l. Supposing a Man, in Circumstances of Life enabling him to maintain a Child, were so to forget himself, and to be so inhuman, as to suffer that Child to become a Charge upon the Parish, I should have no Hesitation in inflicting upon that Man a Fine of 40l. or 50l.; and that Fine might be applied to the proper Education of the Child, under such Circumstances.

Would it not be likely to resolve itself into the present Practice, that the Fine would be paid by Instalments, and the Maintenance of the Child would be thrown upon the Father?

It might, possibly; but it seems to me that at the present Moment the Law rather encourages the Practice than discourages it; and the treating it penally, in some Way or other, I think might be a better Mode of treating such a Crime than as it is now treated.

Do you think that the Practice of paying Part of the Wages of Labour out of the Poor's Rates is of so much Extent as to require some declaratory Law of the Illegality of such a Practice?

I do not think it necessary, because I believe the Law to be quite sufficient as it stands. I think a declaratory Law might be useful; but I am not prepared to acquiesce in any Law of that sort, unless it were guarded in the Way I have described, by some Means of finding Employment for the Poor that would be thrown out of Employment by it.

And the Mode you would suggest for that Purpose would be to empower the Vestry to apply their Funds to such Subjects as might appear to them desirable, without Appeal?

Yes, for that Purpose.

Would it not, in your Opinion, be advisable to extend the Facilities now given to Overseers, in order to enable them to give small Allotments of Land to the Poor?

I know of no Reason why there should be any Limitation to the Powers given to the Overseers in providing Land for the Poor; and under a Select Vestry, I think it would be very desirable to give much larger Power to Vestries than at present exist.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, Twelve o'Clock.