12th May 1624

WEDNESDAY, 12 MAY 1624

I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/14

[CJ 702; f. 36v]

Mercurii, 12⁰ Maii, 22⁰ Jacobi

Ordered, no more bills shall be received this session without order of the House.

MR. [LAURENCE] WHITAKER reports the Feltmakers' bill, with amendments, which twice read. Ingrossetur.

[Blank] at the bar, testified in [Sir William] Somerville's case that he came to Thomas Somerville, who went to his brothers and spoke with them (for they would not be spoken with by him) and spoke with the Lady, and that she saw the order, and the younger brothers (as Thomas Somerville told him) said they would not come.

Resolved, this a sufficient warning, and the committee to proceed, their not coming notwithstanding.

A petition from the Feltmakers read.

Ordered, the feltmakers imprisoned in the Fleet shall be presently enlarged by the warden of the Fleet for prosecution of their bill until the same be determined by both Houses. And the committee for privileges to [CJ 703] take into their consideration whether any [of] the former proceedings in arresting the feltmakers during their attendance upon this court have impeached the privilege of this House, and to make report thereof to the House.

MR. [THOMAS] GEWEN reports the Lady Darcy's bill, with amendments, which twice read. Engrossetur.

MR. [JOHN] WYLDE reports the bill concerning tithes for lead ore.

Upon the first question, not to be engrossed.

Upon the second, to be rejected.

L. 2a. An act against receiving of any secret pensions from any prince or state.

SIR EDWARD COKE. Can show precedents of punishment for taking pensions from foreign princes, though in league with the king, without the privity of the prince.

[f. 37] Committed to:

Court of Wards, tomorrow, 2 [o']clock.

The report for the Fleet upon Friday next.

SIR THOMAS HOBY reports the certificate about recusants in charge or trust. 2 heads in 2 writings:

• 1. Of such, as such themselves.
• 2. Of those which have wives, children, etc.

And those of 2 parts:

• 1. Of those which do their best to reclaim them.

Resolved, that such as have wives recusants, or that educated their children well and, being grown of years, are fallen to popery, and themselves sincere in religion and their younger children well educated and their servants come to church, shall be spared from being certified.

SIR EDWARD COKE. To ground this upon the statute of 3⁰ Jac. (convict being a circumstance), having a wife a recusant, shall bear any office of charge or trust. Having now few convicted. A bull from the pope for any man to go to church, ad redimend vexationem, et performand externam obedientiam, so as his wife, or heir apparent, be a recusant.

SIR CLEMENT THROCKMORTON. A Protestant of state worse than a professed papist. The last looked to be the state, not the other.

[f. 37v] Resolved, none shall be spared that are certified here but such as are sincere in religion, and that their children and servants under their government are well educated or come to church.

SIR THOMAS HOBY. That the committee thinks fit the Earl of Worcester be spared, because has no children in his house, or servant, but goes to church.

Resolved, he shall be spared.

Dispute about my Lord of Wallingford, who, having a recusant to his wife, does himself, and his servants, come to church with all zeal. The doubt because Sir Francis Stonor is his deputy lieutenant. But answered, he was not so made by him. And thereupon resolved, he shall be spared.

Lord of Northampton, having only a daughter married from him that is a recusant, but no wife or servant but good Protestants, to be spared.

Sir Richard Weston, whose wife goes to church but receives not the communion, and has no child or servant recusant. Resolved, to spare him.

Upon long debate, resolved, the certificate against the Lord Scrope shall stand.

Sir William Herbert to be spared. So Sir J[ames] Perrot, so Sir Edward Fraunceys. All the rest left to the committee.

The former committee to nominate a subcommittee to pen a preamble for this petition, and to be presented to the House to morning [sic]. Mr. Solicitor added to the former committee and Sir Edward Coke, if not in before.

Resolved, no man to move any man here that does it not first to the committee this day.

Sir William Somerville's bill, tomorrow in the afternoon.

Mr. Speaker coming into his chair, the committee adjourned until the afternoon, 3 [o']clock. And the Speaker to be here at 2. And all committees to cease this afternoon.

[f. 38] Mercurii, 12⁰ Maii, 22⁰ Jacobi, post meridiem

All particular committees revived, to be tomorrow.

The amendments and proviso which came from the Lords in the bill of limitation of actions twice read.

[Blank]

Upon question, ordered, the House shall be called upon Wednesday next at 2 of the clock in the afternoon.

Sir George More

Sir Francis Barrington

Sir J[ames] Perrot

Sir William Bulstrode

Sir John Savile

Sir Robert Pye

These 6, or any 4 of them, appointed treasurers for collection of 10s. of every knight and of every burgess, 5s., to be disposed of as the House shall appoint.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS. That Mr. Solicitor may make his report of that point of the bill of subsidy which concerns the treasurers.

The bill for Beaminster to be on Friday next at two of the clock in the afternoon.

[House adjourned]

II. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13

[CJ 787; f. 197v]

Mercurii, 12 Maii 1624

Ordered, no more bills shall be received this session without order of the House.

MR. [LAURENCE] WHITAKER reports the Feltmakers' bill. Amendments twice read.

Ordered, to be engrossed.

Sir William Somerville's man called in, says that he came to Mr. Thomas Somerville and acquainted him with the business, showed him the order. He acquainted the rest of the brothers with it. Their mother heard the order read.

Resolved, the committee shall proceed upon this notice.

A petition of Arnold read, master of the Company of Feltmakers.

Ordered, these feltmakers now imprisoned in the Fleet shall be enlarged, shall have the privilege of the House, eundo, redeundo et morando, for the prosecution of their bill. And the committee of privileges to take into consideration whether the former arresting of these men were any impeachment to the privileges of this House.

MR. [THOMAS] GEWEN reports the Lady Darcy's bill. Amendments twice read.

Ordered, to be engrossed.

MR. [JOHN] WYLDE reports the bill of lead ore and lead mine. Committee thought fit to have it no further proceeded in.

Upon question, not to be engrossed.

[f. 198] L. 2. An act against secret receiving of pensions and gifts.

Committed to:

Tomorrow, 2 [o']clock, Court of Wards.

The report of the Fleet. Upon Friday next.

SIR THOMAS HOBY reports from the committee about recusants. Divided them into such as are recusants them- [CJ 788] selves and such whose wives, children or servants are recusants. Read.

The opinion of the committee that those whose wives and children and servants are recusants should not be presented to the Lords, nor to the King.

Resolved, those shall be spared whose children are recusants, being of mature age, having been well educated by their parents in their younger years.

Resolved, upon question, that none shall be exempted but such who are known Protestants and whose children and servants are so.

Earl of Worcester to be spared.

Lord Wallingford to be spared.

Earl of Northampton to be spared, who has a daughter married a recusant.

Sir Richard Weston, whose wife comes to the church but receives not, and has no children nor servants recusants, to be spared.

[f. 198v] Upon long debate, the certificate against Lord Scrope, [Lord] President of the [Council in the] North, to stand.

Sir William Herbert to be spared.

Sir James Perrot to be spared.

Sir Edward Fraunceys to be spared.

All the rest referred to the committee, who are to nominate to [sic] subcommittee [?to] pen a preamble for this petition. Mr. Solicitor added to the committee. To be presented to the House tomorrow morning. Sir Edward Coke added also. No man to move for the sparing of any man tomorrow, unless he move it to the committee.

Mr. Speaker went out of his chair, and the House went to a committee about the bill of subsidy.

Speaker went in again to his chair.

MR. SOLICITOR reports. The committee find many difficulties about the bill. Desire the Speaker to be here at 2 of the clock.

Ordered.

And all committees to cease this afternoon.

Mercurii, 12 Maii, post meridiem

All particular committees that were discontinued in the forenoon to be revived tomorrow afternoon.

[Blank]

The amendments of the bill of limitation of actions twice read. Ordered to be entered into the engrossed bill. Passed, with the amendments.

[f. 199] The amendments of [the Earl of] Holdernesse's bill twice read. Ordered to be entered into the bill. Read again and passed with the proviso.

The committee for preparing the grievances to meet on Saturday, Inner Temple Hall, 2 [o']clock. All the lawyers to attend.

Committee about impositions to meet tomorrow, 2 [o']clock, Court of Wards.

MR. [JOHN] GLANVILLE reports the bill of assignment of debts. Amendments twice read.

Ordered, to be engrossed.

Sir Edward Coke to make his report of monopolies tomorrow morning, 8 [o']clock.

The House to be called on Wednesday next, 2 [o']clock.

Sir George More

Sir Francis Barrington

Sir James Perrot

Sir William Bulstrode

Sir John Savile

Sir Robert Pye

appointed treasurers for collecting of 10s. of every knight and 5s. of every burgess, to be distributed among the officers. These or any 4 of them.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS. To have a report made of the bill of subsidy, that part of the treasurers, because it is a thing that will be opposed.

MR. SOLICITOR reports from the committee. They have appointed 8 treasurers.

SIR JOHN SAVILE. Against all order or precedent to report a part or piece of a bill.

[House adjourned]

III. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2

[p. 286]

Mercurii, 12 Maii 1624

[Committee of the Whole House]

6 H. 4 president de tresorers pur subsidies et fiveteene, Lord Furnivall et [Sir John] Pelham de faire accounte al Commons et treason pur misimploymente. Mes cest fuit parliamentun indoctorum et null lawyer del Huise, ne un bon leye passe al mesme Parliamente.

Post meridiem

Le Speaker in le chaire.

3. L. Bill pur Lord Holdernesse. 3. L. [sic], p[asse].

3. L., p[asse]. Bill pur limitacions d'actions. 3. L., p[asse] [sic].

Sur question, le Huise to be called upon Wednesdaye nexte.

Sur question, 6 collectors pur collecter de chescun chivaler de county 10s. de chescun burges 5s. pur relleiffe del pouer et rewarde del officers et attendants. Pur honor del Huise et melieux attendance in touts courts accordant al antient presidents.

IV. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166

[f. 203]

Wednesday, 12⁰ Maii 1624

An act against receiving of pensions from foreign princes and states. 2. L., committed. Dormit Lords.

Ordered, that all papists convicted or suspected shall be presented to the King and none to be exempted but such as have only their wives or such children as are out of their tutelage.

[f. 225v] SIR EDWARD COKE. That there was a licence from the pope that if a man's wife or eldest son were a papist, such a man might go to the church ad redimendam poenam et ad praestandam externam obedientiam.

[f. 203] And there shall be exempted out of this petition the Earl of Worcester, the Earl of Northampton, the Viscount Wallingford, Sir William Herbert, Sir James Perrot, Sir Edward Fraunceys, Sir Richard Weston, Sir William Wrey. The rest that shall be exempted are to be considered of by this committee.

SIR JAMES PERROT says that it was spoken at the committee that the Lord Scrope had not received the communion but once this 5 years and then it was at such time as his Lordship was questioned before the King whether he was a papist or not, and it is likely he will now again receive the communion if he be questioned, though but with [?now] better affectation than heretofore.

[f. 203v] Ordered, that the former committee for this business shall consider of such others as are fit to be excused and exempted out of the petition to the King and that the same committee shall appoint a select committee to draw up a preamble and petition wherein the names of such papists as hold place of charge in the counties shall be presented to the King.

Mr. Speaker leaves the chair and a committee sits touching the bill of subsidies

Mr. [John] Pym moves that the taking of the account of the money delivered for the war to the treasurers and to be disbursed by the Council of War shall be by the House of Commons, and that the punishment of delinquents therein should be indifferently of such as are Commons to be censured by this House, and of such as are Lords to be by the Upper House.

Mr. [William] Noye would have only one House to give judgement of clearing or punishing those that shall employ this money, given for the war, to any other use than such as it is given for. His reason is because if both Houses should give judgement therein, our House may think some fit to be punished and the Lords think otherwise, and so those that have taken pains herein cannot be cleared nor condemned; and it is apparent that we many times pass bills which the Lords reject, and our judgements often differ. But he likes the motion of Mr. [John] Pym.

V. DIARY OF SIR THOMAS HOLLAND, RAWL. D. 1,100, BODLEIAN LIBRARY

[f. 85v]

12 Maii, Wednesday

An act to relieve the Feltmaker[s] against a decree in Chancery and for the reversing the same.

It is ordered that the feltmakers that are imprisoned in the Fleet shall be enlarged during the time the bill has passed both Houses.

[MR. THOMAS] GEWEN reports the Lady Darcy's bill.

[MR. JOHN] WHISTLER reports/

[MR. JOHN] WYLDE reports an act concerning the finding lead ore in the Peak of Derbyshire.

Rejected.

Second read, committed. An act against secret receiving of pensions and gifts from foreign states.

[SIR THOMAS] HOBY. For certificates, those that are popish recusants and non-communicants themselves: [Earl of] Rutland and his wife suspected; [Earl of] Castlehaven suspected; [Sir Thomas] Compton and the Countess [of Buckingham]; [Viscount] Purbeck, Lord Herbert, [Viscount] Colchester; [Lord] Petre and his wife, [Lord] Morley; [Lord] Windsor, [Lord] Eure, [Lord] Wotton and his wife, [Lord] Teynham; [f. 86] [Lord] Scrope for absenting himself from church and communion; Sir William Courtenay, [Sir] Thomas Brudenell; Richard [sic] Somerset, [Sir] Gilbert Ireland, [Sir] Anthony Browne, Sir Francis Howard, [Sir] Lewis Lewknor, [Sir Henry] Kerville, the Archbishop of York for his son, the Lord Marshal for his wife and servants, the Lord Wallingford for his wife, Sir Richard Weston for his wife not receiving the communion.

The House thinks fit that all such who have their children educated in their youth popishly should be presented, but such whose children since marriage are grown popish are not to be dealt with.

[SIR THOMAS] WENTWORTH moves that a select committee may be named to draw up the preamble, and tomorrow to crave a conference with the Lords and desire the presentment of it to his Majesty the beginning of the next week.

[f. 86v] [SIR EDWARD] COKE moves that although there has not been conviction by reason of connivance, yet those who deserve to be convicted and whose wife and children are popishly affected should not be blanched but be preferred.

[Earl of] Worcester and [Viscount] Wallingford was moved to be spared because they were well affected in themselves, children and family, so long as the government was in the Earl of Worcester.

[Earl of] Northampton spared.

Sir Richard Weston spared.

Sir William Herbert, Sir James Perrot, Sir Edward Fraunceys spared. Sir W/

Order. Six are appointed to draw the preamble for the petition this afternoon and to bring it into the House tomorrow morning.

[Committee of the Whole House]

H. 4, 6, at Coventry for the treasurers of war, were not to pay out the money given by the Commons House of Parliament upon the pain of treason to [f. 87] answer for it the next Parliament following with an account. Ed. 4, 10, another precedent/

VI. DIARY OF RICHARD DYOTT, STAFFORDSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, MS D661/11/1/2

[f. 133v]

May 12

[Illegible.] Such Protestants as have wives recusants are not within the order to be presented unless their wives were papists [?when] they married them.

[Committee of the Whole House]

[Mr. William] Noye produced the Parliament Roll wherein subsidy [?is] granted and receivers appointed by the Commons.

Sieur de Furnivall and [Sir John] Pelham were the receivers of the money. To the honour of God and out of affection to repress the enemies [?and rebels] of Scotland, Wales, Calais, given defence of kingdom. Second, 15 [illegible] to be levied in manner accustomed. Subsidy of leather, wool, etc. upon condition that for defence of the kingdom, etc. Thomas, Sieur de Furnivall and [Sir] John Pelham assigned treasurers of the wars [f. 134] to render account to the Commons [?the] next Parliament. If any bring any letters patents, [?takes] warrant, etc. for any of these moneys, [?he] incurs pain of treason.

If not a reasonable army for defence of kingdom, res[illegible] of [?Guienne], the rebels of Wales, defence of east and west Marches of Scotland. The treasurers were sworn in Parliament before the King to execute all before written.

[Mr. William] Noye. The Commons are to judge that that makes the offence. If they disallow, 'tis treason. We must provide that the accountants may have a final dismission [sic] if they do well, which is uncertain if both [f. 134v] [illegible] judge; if both differ, there can be no [?discharge.] [?Rewards] as necessary as stipends. They may differ in opinion about the proportion of the reward. Many bills pass here that rejected there and so uncertain whether treasurers can be discharged if both Houses have cognizance. Would have the matter referred to one House; it makes no matter whether.

[Mr. John] Pym would have the account made to the Commons, and the punishment to be inflicted by that House whereof the offender is a member. For the Lords will holdfast their liberties and will not consent to give us power to judge of their members

Mr. [William] Ravenscroft. [f. 135] 10 E. 4 a subsidy granted upon condition that if the King did not lead an army in France by such a day the grant to be void.

[Mr. Edward] Alford. That the Council of War may well receive and pay, and though treasurers be already chosen by the House, and upon question, yet sidae cogitationes meliores, and we may propound our reasons for an alteration to the House.

[Sir Edward] Coke. This precedent does not suit our case. Treason does not only extend to bringing [?in] letters patent, [illegible] that the said treasurers do not deliver money to any other use than aforesaid, [?etc]. 'Tis proper for the Commons to take the account because the bulk of the subsidy from us. But no precedent that we should judge a peer. [f. 135v] Let us take heed of a bone cast [?between] us to break the blessed correspondence between us.

Seymour would have provision made for the collectors who yet are at large.

[Mr. William] Noye. The question is, first, where the account shall be declared and determined. All agree that this House is fittest. Second, where the accountant is to be punished or delivered. I like very well of Mr. [John] Pym's motion that the members of both Houses should be judged in their several Houses: if he be of the Commons, by this house; if a Lord, by them. They are to account as well for their actions as money.

[Sir Edward] Cecil. It was never heard that a Council of War should be troubled with the receipt and issuing [?of] money. Let them be several, they will have enough to do. You must take order with [f. 136] your collectors, for are they not bound to the King? Not fit the Council should be troubled with a ministerial work, etc.

6 collectors appointed of money for officers that attend us in the House and at committees, and ruled that knights shall pay 10s. a piece and burgesses 5s. a piece.

The House to be called upon to see who are absent.

A report ought to be entire and not made by parts, first of one part and then of another. And Mr. Solicitor's report that was offered in that kind was rejected.

The collectors' bonds are made to the King notwithstanding that he may release it because the collectors will be so many [f. 136v] and the assurance will be weaker. And though the bond be discharged by King, yet they be accountable to the Commons in Parliament.

Resolved, upon question, that the Council of War and they whom they shall employ take account of the frugal bestowing of the moneys, etc.

Though we have [?the] power to acquit a lord as we have in other ordinary causes, yet it does not follow we [?should] have power of judgement on a lord never precedent to that purpose.

Some would have the punishment expressed in the law as 3[?x] the value and imprisonment at pleasure of Lords or Commons.

VII. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597

[f. 180]

Wednesday, 12th of May

[f. 180v] Report from the committee for certifying the names of recusants in commission of the peace:

Resolved, by the House, to spare such who themselves are not suspected though their wives be recusants, or whose children since they came to man's estate have fallen off to popery, being otherwise well educated.

SIR HENRY ANDERSON moved we might only represent these things to the state, and do no more.

[f. 181] SIR THOMAS WENTWORTH affirmed it was already ordered by the House to present it to the King.

SIR EDWARD COKE. If ever a time to go on with such a business, now it is. There were licences from the pope for men to go to church ad redimendam vexationem et ad ostendendam externam obedientiam, if either they had their wife or children recusants. Therefore, etc.

The Archbishop of York, the Earl of Worcester, [Earl of] Northampton, [Viscount] Wallingford exempted; Sir Edward Fraunceys, Sir William Herbert, Sir James Perrot.

The committee for the bill of subsidy

Precedents vouched concerning the accountants and censure of them. The Parliament Roll, 6 H. 4. The consider[ation]. The east and west Marches of Scotland, Calais, Ireland, defence of England; 2 fifteenths and 2 tenths; subsidy, leather and woolfells, wool, for 2 years, 3s. per tun of wine, 12d. per lb. for all merchandise except wool, leather. Upon condition that the same be particularly expended for defence of the realm, etc., as Thomas, Lord Furnivall and [Sir John] Pelham, who shall be accountable to the Commons the next Parliament. No letters, privy seals, etc. to be brought from the King to any other end upon pain of treason. If before, etc., there be not a reasonable army for Guienne, [f. 181v] Scotland, Wales, the defence of the realm before quindena Hilary, then this grant to be void. [Lord] Furnivall and [Sir John] Pelham sworn before the Lords and Commons.

Mr. [William] Noye of opinion not to refer the censure to both Houses in respect of the uncertainty. But either to this House alone or to the Lords' House alone.

Mr. [William] Ravenscroft. A record at Westminster, E. 4['s] time, 6 treasurers of the Lords' House.

Sir Edward Coke. In 3 precedents it appears the account has been referred to both Houses. The account may be made to the Commons. But no precedent that ever any Lord was punished by this House.

Mr. [John] Pym. The punishment of the members of the Lords' House to be by them, and of the rest by this House.

Wednesday afternoon

The Speaker in the chair.

SIR ROBERT PYE. Motion to have a call of the House.

Ordered, to have a call on Wednesday, two of the clock, in the afternoon.

SIR WILLIAM BULSTRODE moved that according to the ancient order, there might be treasurers appointed to make a collection to be distributed among the ushers and attendants, the ancient proportion, etc., being 10s. for a knight of a shire, and 5s. for a burgess.

Ordered, and 6 treasurers appointed.

SIR EDWIN SANDYS moved, touching the bill of subsidy, that Mr. Solicitor might report the point of difficulty in debate [f. 182] touching the treasurers that so it might be resolved by the House.

But this was rejected as contrary to order.

The committee for the bill of subsidy.

VIII. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159

[f. 115]

May 12⁰, Wednesday

The Lady Darcy's bill for the restitution of her right to the parsonage of Sutton in Surrey. Reported and engrossed.

An act against such as receive pensions from foreign states.

A large dispute about the recusants that are in place of charge and trust in the kingdom, whether such as had their wives so affected, themselves being no way to be suspected, should be presented and petitioned about to his Majesty or no. It was resolved affirmatively, because how else should the laws be put in execution when they are trusted with them that are either parties or partially affected? How shall he without danger command the arms of the country who himself deserves to be disarmed?

And for that divers go to church whose wives are recusants, SIR EDWARD COKE averred it that the pope had given dispensation to the man to do so ad redimendam vexationem, and if the wife and children were Catholicly addicted.

Ergo, it was ordered, upon question, to present all, only such as the House should upon good reason think meet particularly to except, as at that time they did [f. 115v] the Earl of Worcester, Earl of Northampton and Viscount Wallingford and Sir Richard Weston, Chancellor of the Exchequer.

A committee appointed to draw up a preamble to the presentation.

A committee of the whole House about the bill of subsidy

Where, among other things, a precedent was produced 6⁰ Hen. 4, numero 9⁰, where for the securing of the realm against the rebellion in Wales and other troubles, the Commons gave the King tenths and fifteens, and constituted 2 treasurers of their own to receive and disburse them, the Lord Furnivall and one [Sir John] Pelham, a knight, and it was made treason in them to expend the money otherwise than was appointed, and the moneys were not payable unless by such a time a competent army was on foot for the forenamed purposes.