11th May 1624

TUESDAY, 11 MAY 1624

I. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/14

[CJ 702; f. 35]

Martis, 11⁰ Maii, 22⁰ Jacobi

L. 2a. An act against the transportation of iron ordnance.

Committed to:

And all that will come to have voice. Wednesday, Whitsun week, Star Chamber.

The Lady [Grace] Darcy's bill, 2 [o']clock this afternoon.

MR. [ROBERT] SNELLING moves concerning Wintertonness lights and the survey of coals, which takes from the merchants of Ipswich alone little less than £2,800 per annum.

The committee for grievances to sit for this in [sic] Thursday in the afternoon; and the committee for trade to sit then in the Exchequer Chamber. Resolved.

A petition from Dr. [Isaac] Bargrave, read.

Mr. [John] Bargrave's cause to be the first on Friday come sevennight.

MR. [JOHN] WYLDE moves in [Sir William] Somerville's bill that some of the brothers attend not, yet some of them had notice and attended.

Resolved, the party that gave the warning to attend the House tomorrow morning to inform the House.

[f. 35v] SIR EDWARD COKE reports from the committee for grievances concerning Sir S[imon] Harvey, Ingenii servus, plerumque peccati servus. 3 particulars:

• 1. That Sir S[imon] Harvey, without authority under any seal, made warrant to the high constables of Hertfordshire for malt for the King's house. This contra[ry] to the statute of Articuli super chartas, whereby purveying without warrant under the Great Seal felony. Yet the committee meddled not with this.

[Mr. Mark] Quested, a fishmonger of London and partner in a ship of Yarmouth which ventured for fish. First, Sir S[imon] Harvey, going down to Yarmouth, took 50 of his lings; should have taken no more, yet caused 1,400 to be marked. Sir S[imon] Harvey at London took the 1,400 not marked, as well as the 1,400 marked. Was at length forced to take some of his own refuse fish for his money to his great loss.

Middlesex compounding for carriages upon the King's removes (Middlesex using to join with Hertford and Essex in the removes), now Middlesex exempt, and all laid upon Essex and Hertford. Nay, when 14 set down for Middlesex, for which was to pay 12d. a mile, of these Sir S[imon] Harvey set 8 upon Essex and 6 upon Hertford; when 100 upon Essex, not one upon Middlesex.

• 2. A legerdemain. [Abraham] Jacob, the purveyor of the King's French wine, had communication with one Leichland and Hide, and would have parted with the office for nothing. Sir S[imon] Harvey got it set over to him, promising to make no benefit of it but to set it over. But when Jacob had set it over, Sir S[imon] Harvey squeezed from Leichland £530 where ought to have had nothing. Before Sir S[imon] Harvey officer, the composition money duly paid, but never since. A general complaint out of many counties about this. He pretended to save the King £8,000 per annum. Wont to be in store 500 quarters of wheat, 200 oxen, 2,000 sheep, etc., now no provision at all. That £20,000 will not set the Household in that [f. 36] plight he found it. He a very patient man, not moved with anything spoken to him.

MR. TREASURER. To avoid the imputation which may lie upon them, the chief governors of the Household let the House know these things not ripe for their reformation. That after a commission had passed the House, he offered to save the King £8,000 per annum. He had year after year given him, to make this good. A month now past, order given him to give in an account of his proceedings, which he has put off upon pretence that he is questioned here. That upon this offer of his, the Lord Treasurer has struck off £8,000 per annum, by which means they are driven to be behind with payments to the country. Moves to know whether the House will complain to the King of this, or leave him to the chief officers of the Green Cloth.

SIR ROBERT HARLEY. To transmit him up to the Lords.

Upon question, these abuses of Sir S[imon] Harvey to be presented to his Majesty as grievances and to be reduced into a parliamentary form with the residue of the grievances.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY moves for a day to reduce all the grievances into a parliamentary form. That the deputy of the Clerk of the Market, and which executes, has in farm the amerciaments.

Resolved, this shall be made ready and presented to the House upon Friday next.

This committee is to take into their consideration the claim of the subject against impositions.

Ordered, that Sir Edward Coke and Sir Edwin Sandys, which presented the charge against the Lord Treasurer, shall with all convenient speed set down in writing the heads thereof to remain here for posterity.

Thursday in the forenoon appointed for debate of the white cloth to be transported by other merchants besides the Merchant Adventurers.

[House adjourned]

II. JOURNAL OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, PA, HC/CL/JO/1/13

[CJ 787; f. 196v]

Martis, 11 Maii 1624

L. 2. An act against the exportation of iron ordnance.

Lady [Grace] Darcy's bill. This afternoon, former place.

Ordnance. Committed to:

And all to have voice. Wednesday, Whitsun week, Star Chamber.

MR. [ROBERT] SNELLING. To have Thursday afternoon appointed for the committee of grievances to sit to hear the cause of Wintertonness light and the survey of coals.

Ordered. And the committee of trade to sit in the Exchequer Chamber.

A petition read of Doctor [Isaac] Bargrave to have a day assigned for the hearing of his brother's cause.

Resolved, it shall hold the day assigned formerly.

The party that gave warning to Sir William Somerville's brothers to be here tomorrow morning to acquaint the House with the manner of it.

SIR EDWARD COKE reports from the committee of grievances concerning Sir Simon Harvey, Ingenii dominus, plerumque peccati servus. First of all, he made warrants for malt without warrant or commission. This a high offence.

2. One [Mr. Mark] Quested, a fishmonger of London, of this man Sir Simon Harvey took 50 lings for composition, and after 1,400 more he marked. When all brought to London, then he took 2,800, and long before he could [f. 197] have any satisfaction.

3. For carriages. Some counties have compounded; the burden laid upon those that have not compounded, and the other spared. His drift was to make all counties compound.

4. His legerdemain. [Abraham] Jacob, purveyor for the King's wines, was willing to be rid of it. Had communication with one Leichland, entered into articles. Harvey he came and said he would have his name used in it because Clerk Comptroller. Accipe nunc Harveis insidia, et crimine ab uno disce omnes. Harvey, after he got he got [sic] the indentures, he squeezed £530 out of Leichland. Infinite complaints of Harvey. Before he came in, the composition money well paid; now not so. All countries complain. Pretended to save the King [£]8,000 per annum. And whereas the Household was wont to be provided with divers provisions beforehand, as 200 oxen, 2,000 sheep, 500 quarters of malt, now all bought from hand to mouth, and all the stores gone, so that £20,000 will not set the house in that state it was again.

MR. TREASURER sorry this man has troubled this House so much. The sole managing of the affairs of the King's house committed to him. Upon his pretence of saving the King £8,000 per annum, the Lord Treasurer cut off so much. If it may please this House to remand him to the supreme officers of the Household.

Resolved, upon question, that these abuses of Sir Simon Harvey shall be reduced into form and writing and presented to the King among the grievances.

MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY. To have a time appointed to reduce all the grievances into a parliamentary form.

to take into consideration the claim of the subject against impositions.

[f. 197v] SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. To have those 2 gentlemen that presented the charge of the Lord Treasurer, to set them down in a parliamentary manner, to be kept as a record in this House.

Ordered.

Sir Edward Coke and Sir Edwin Sandys to do it with as much speed as may be.

The matter of white cloths to be debated on Thursday morning.

[House adjourned]

III. DIARY OF JOHN HAWARDE, WILTSHIRE AND SWINDON ARCHIVES, 9/34/2

[p. 286]

Martis, 11 Maii 1624

[Committee of the Whole House]

Debate pur le subsidie pur places de honor del counsell pur le guerre.

IV. DIARY OF EDWARD NICHOLAS, TNA, SP 14/166

[f. 201v]

Tuesday, 11⁰ Maii 1624

SIR EDWARD COKE reports the complaints against Sir Simon Harvey. That Sir Simon Harvey oppressed Surrey and Hampshire (who had not compounded) by laying the charge that other shires who had compounded on those that had not compounded. That he took up purveyance of malt without warrant. That he oppressed one [Mr. Mark] Quested, a fishmonger, by taking 18,000 couple of ling more than he had compounded for and did not pay him for the same until of late when he was also forced to take some of his own old rotten fish. That he played the legerdemain with one Leichland concerning the provision of the French wines for the King's house. That it was informed by some of the officers of the Green Cloth that Sir Simon Harvey (being Clerk Comptroller of the King's house) has by his ill carriage so disordered and wronged the King's service as that £20,000 will not settle it again in so good order as it was before he meddled it [sic] in it.

Ordered, that all the complaints against Sir Simon Harvey shall be reduced into a form and presented in the petition of grievances to the King, because the Lords are full of business and have many bills to dispatch and [f. 202] but little time (the conclusion of the sessions [sic] being so near at hand), the House thinks it not fit now to present these complaints against Sir Simon Harvey unto the Lords.

Ordered, that a select committee now appointed shall take into their consideration the claim of the subject against impositions.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. That the Commons of England have presented a complaint to the Lords against the now Lord Treasurer. That the charge against his Lordship is not entered into the Clerk's book, wherefore he moves that those who delivered the charge to the Lords against the Lord Treasurer may bring in the heads thereof to be entered in the Clerk's book.

Resolved, that Sir E[dward] Coke and Sir E[dwin] Sandys, who presented the charge to the Lords against the Lord Treasurer, shall set down the heads thereof to be here entered into the Clerk's book.

Mr. Speaker leaving the chair, Mr. Solicitor sits in it at a committee touching the bill of subsidies.

Sir Francis Seymour moves that the subsidies may be paid into the Exchequer.

Mr. [William] Mallory would have the subsidies and fifteens paid into the Exchequer and in the ordinary course that subsidies have used to be paid.

These motions fell as being contrary to the order of the House and the reasons of giving of the said subsidies and fifteens and the King's own offer in his speech to the Parliament.

There growing now a question about the ranking and placing of the Council of War in the bill of subsidies, a question being first whether Sir Edward Conway, being a privy councillor, or Sir Edward Cecil, being the son of an earl, [f. 202v] should take place, it was here acknowledged by Secretary Calvert that the King has decided it that all the sons of earls should and ought to take place of a kt. privy councillor. And a further question growing whether the Lord Carew, Baron of Clopton and the Lord Brooke, being English barons, ought not to take place of Viscount Grandison, who is an Irish viscount, it was the opinion of this committee that the barons of England should in the act of subsidies be placed before Viscount Grandison, but it was not resolved by the question here but suffered so to pass from us.

Sir Francis Seymour says that a viscount of Ireland or Scotland ought not to take place of an English baron here in this kingdom. One reason was that the price of a viscountship of Ireland or Scotland is not so dear as a barony of England. And also a baron or viscount of Ireland or Scotland shall here in England be tried by an ordinary jury of this kingdom and not by barons or peers of this realm, as the Lord Sanquhar, a Scottish baron, was here tried by a jury of Middlesex, and many other the like precedents are to be seen.

There was no order herein nor more done at this time than is before expressed.

Mr. [William] Noye says that in 5⁰ H. 4 the Lord Furnivall was treasurer for the Lords and Mr. [sic] [John] Pelham for the Commons, and [f. 203] these were to be accountable to the House of Commons.

It is resolved that the further debate hereof shall be at the House without any order made at this present.

V. DIARY OF RICHARD DYOTT, STAFFORDSHIRE RECORD OFFICE, MS D661/11/1/2

[f. 131]

May 11

Committee for bill of subsidies

Solicitor in chair.

20 E. 4 a foreign nobleman but a gentleman here. Every nobleman here sits in the Upper House.

13 Eliz. [illegible] an Irishman, nobleman, was tried by 12 men for treason.

We are now to place the Council of War in a statute. Let us place them legally, according to the place the law gives them.

Resolved, that the barons of England to be placed before Viscount Grandison, etc., notwithstanding that they do not take place at court.

Mr. Secretary Calvert would have had them placed [illegible] as was done in the treaty of Spain, wherein they were to name [illegible] states who contended for precedence, naming the meanest and greatest states together indifferently.

[f. 131v] Resolved too, that earl's younger sons shall take place before knights privy councillors.

The highest [?and] lowest degrees of honour as [?4 words illegible] but the subaltern degrees are not.

The baronage of England the ancient fundamental honour. Now a [?new] [illegible] is devised for a little money to get title in Ireland and so have precedence of our barons.

Moved by [Sir Robert] Phelips that the Commons may by the act have power to judge with Lords of the treasurer[s] and Council of War, etc. if offend against the act, and not only complain.

Solicitor. The more we dispute, the more we [illegible] the Lords will never yield that judgement should go by plurality [?of] voices, for so we shall overrule [f. 132] them at pleasure.

Chancellor of Duchy. [?That] the way to judge it is for both Houses to make committees to examine the matter and then the Houses to determine. It is for our honour to be joined with the Lords in judgement.

Mr. Recorder. The judgement is to be given by the Lords and Commons as it is penned, and we have no place for both to meet nor cannot. Would therefore have neither House to judge. Put into the [illegible].

[Mr. John] Selden. [Blank] 9 R. 2 a subsidy was granted upon such condition and, 3 R. [2], they chose their own treasurers. The Commons called for an account and were forced to complain to the Lords where they had it with difficulty. 5 H. 4 in like manner a subsidy granted upon like condition and then it was made treason to make a false account.

[f. 132v] [Thomas] Wentworth. Never will yield to have a conference with Lords about the subsidy; it is in a manner the only liberty that is left.

[Sir Edward] Coke. We cannot have the House of Commons to judge a member of the Upper House if the treasurers [?2 illegible words] and Council at [sic] War were [?appointed unfit] for us to judge.

[Mr. William] Noye. Best to follow the latest precedents for [?they] [illegible] the inconveniences of former and declined [illegible]. In H. 4 one Lord and one commoner treasurer, and the Commons were judges.

[Mr. John] Glanville. This is but a particular act wherein we do not declare any rights but by consent of the Lords, w[h]o have power to judge of this business.

[Sir Robert] Phelips. Precedents are offered us many times for our disadvantage, now some for our good. Let us take hold of that which was mentioned by [Mr. William] Noye, that only they may be responsible to [f. 133] the Commons of England.

[Sir Francis] Seymour. Would have that point deferred until tomorrow morning that we may better consider of it and the learned gentleman to pursue the precedent and inform the House.

Agreed to.

[Sir Edward] Coke. That precedent vouched by [Mr. William] Noye was that the account should be made to the Commons and that should be treason to make false account, so that the [illegible] only [?belongs] to us but the act of Parliament did judge [?them].

[Mr. William] Noye. They [?would] not be judged for treason before the Commons had adjudged the account and then the offence did appear.

Put off until tomorrow and then we shall come better prepared. Agreed.

VI. DIARY OF SIR WALTER EARLE, BL, ADD. MS 18,597

[f. 178v]

Tuesday, the 11th of May

SIR EDWARD COKE'S report from the committee of grievances touching complaints against Sir Simon Harvey.

Resolved, upon the question, to present this complaint among the grievances to the King.

[f. 179] MR. [WILLIAM] MALLORY moved that the grievances complained of might be collected together to make them fit to be presented to the King.

Ordered.

MR. [EDWARD] ALFORD'S motion to consider of the point of impositions, and though the dispute of the right be waived, yet fit to continue our claim.

A select committee appointed to consider of a course to continue the subjects' claim against impositions.

SIR ROBERT PHELIPS. This House having questioned the Lord Treasurer, fit to consider what has been done concerning the recording of the particulars complained of, lest it should be in this case as in the case of the Lord Chancellor Bacon, no memorials remaining.

Ordered, that Sir Edward Coke and Sir Edwin Sandys should draw up the heads thereof to that end.

The Speaker went from the chair, and the committee for the bill of subsidy sat.

Question raised about ranking the Council of War.

Sir Edward Coke. An earl or etc. of Ireland, if he be sued here in England, he is to be sued by the name of an esquire. 20 E. 4, Lord Dyer, 13 Eliz.

Another question, whether the Lords or Commons or both should take account of and punish the treasurers or Council of War.

Mr. [John] Selden. By the record 1 R. 2 a condition [f. 179v] the treasurers should account to the Lords and Commons. But the Commons found difficulty, therefore, etc. Afterward in another subsidy, 6 H. 4, granted on the like condition, the account was to be made to the House of Commons, and they made judges.

Sir Edward Coke. 1 R. 2, 3 R. 2, 9 R. 2, 6 H. 4 when the Commons were treasurers and all of the Council of War were of the Commons, then the judgement was proper to the House of Commons. But here some of the barons being of the Council of War, fit both to join.

Mr. [William] Noye. Fit to follow the latest precedents. That 5 H. 5 the Lord Furnivall, a baron, and [Sir John] Pelham of the Commons, yet the judicature was left to the House of Commons.

Tuesday afternoon, the committee for privileges

The 2nd complaint of Sir Alexander Temple, the case of Winchelsea. Sir A[lexander] Temple alleged that he had now the 2nd time been elected but that some of the burgesses were excluded under pretence of being before disfranchised, whereas Paul Wymond was no true mayor that disfranchised them. On the contrary, it was alleged that he was reputed mayor, and those men claimed no right the time before.

The committee for trade

The complaint against the Guinea Company [f. 180] and their patent, alleging it to be a grievance in regard of the restraint of trade there. The clause of imprisonment, confiscation of goods, etc. The rivers Senega[l] and Sierra Leone give £3,000 gold.

Another complaint, against the Greenland Company by one Beversham. In March, 10 Jac., the company hired his ship for Greenland. The ships of the company met a French ship, which they would not suffer to fish. They compounded for 8 whales, the whales worth £4,000. The oil, etc., laid aboard Beversham's ship. The ship returning and being discharged of that voyage, went for Bordeaux hired by other merchants. There the ship was arrested and some of the men imprisoned under pretence of the loss sustained at Greenland. They proceed, first, in the admiral court as pirates, they appeal to the Parliament, thence afterwards sent to Paris. A letter written from the King at the instance of our ambassador to stay the suit of Bordeaux. So they appeal to Paris. There he pleaded the King of England's interest, etc. At length he was condemned in 20,000 crowns, alleging them to be pirates. They said the King of England might make laws to bind his own subjects but not strangers. It cost him £2,000.

VII. JOURNAL OF SIR SIMONDS D'EWES, BL, HARL. MS 159

[f. 114v]

May 11⁰, Tuesday

Upon report from the committee for grievances, Sir Simon Harvey was to be complained of to the King, and neither to the Green Cloth as some, nor to the Lords as others, would have had it.

[MR. EDWARD] ALFORD. A motion to claim at the least, though we waive all dispute with the King in it, this right, that his Majesty cannot set impositions upon the subject without the consent of the Parliament.

A motion upon which issued an order that Sir Edward Coke and Sir Edwin Sandys should sum up and set down the heads of the charge against the Lord Treasurer that they might be recorded and remain in the House for posterity.

A motion from the knights of Gloucestershire for the enlarging of the vent of white cloths, that if the Merchant Adventurers will not take them at their hands, it might be lawful for others to do it. That was referred to further consideration as the only peculiar now left to the Merchant Adventurers.

A committee of the whole House for the subsidy bill

A motion that the subsidy should be levied and paid according to the usual manner, with designation of treasurers of our own because [f. 115] nothing was like to be done with it in that for which it was given. Rejected.

A motion to give one subsidy now, another next sessions [sic] and a third at a third meeting. Rejected also.

A dispute about the precedency in nomination of the Council of War:

• 1. Sir Edward Cecil was placed before Secretary Conway, and the reason given generally because earls' sons are to take place before privy councillors.
• 2. Barons of England were placed before viscounts of Scotland or Ireland, as the Lord Carew and the Lord Brooke before Viscount Grandison.