House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 28 January 1645

Die Martis, 28 die Januarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Hodges.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Letter from the King's General, acknowledging the Receipt of the Pass for the Commissioners for the Treaty.

The Lord General acquainted this House, "That he hath received a Letter, by Sir Peter Killegrew, from the General of the King's Army;" which was read, as followeth:

"My Lord,

"I have received, by Sir Peter Killegrew, the safe Conduct which your Lordship sent. The Lords and others, appointed by His Majesty for the Treaty, will not fail to be at the Time and Place agreed upon. I remain

Oxford, this 26th of January, 1644.

"Your Lordship's Servant,

Rupert.

"For the Earl of Essex, General."

Ordered, That this Letter be communicated to the House of Commons.

De La Salle's Cause to be heard.

The Lord Admiral reported, "That the Committee of Lords and Commons appointed to consider of the Papers presented from the French Resident: And their Opinion is, That the Business be heard on Saturday next, before the said Committee; and that, in the mean Time, both Houses of Parliament be moved, to grant Order for Stop of all Proceedings upon the Statute of Bankrupt against La Salle; and that he enjoy the Benefit of such Letters as come directed to him from Parts beyond the Seas."

Ordered, That this be communicated to the House of Commons, and their Concurrence desired herein.

Papers concerning the Treaty.

The Earl of Northumb. reported Two Papers from the Committee of both Kingdoms:

1. A Draught of a Commission, to give Power to the Commissioners to treat with the King's Commissioners.

Agreed to.

2. (fn. 1) A Draught of Instructions, what Answer to give to the King's last Propositions.

Read, and Agreed to.

Ordered, To communicate these Papers to the House of Commons.

Petition of the East India Company, that Mucknell had carried One of their Ships into Bristol.

A Petition of the Governor and Company of Merchants of London, trading into The East Indies; shewing, "That, in April last, they employed one John Mucknell to be Master and Commander of the Ship called The John, bound for The East India; but the said Mucknell, in August last, carried the said Ship and all her Lading into Bristoll, where (fn. 2) she remaineth in the Custody of Sir John Pennington; therefore they humbly pray, that Two Members of their own Society (fn. 3) may address themselves, by Petition, to His Majesty, for Recovery of their said Ship and Goods."

Message to the H. C. about De La Salle's Business, and with the Papers concerning the Treaty.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech † and Doctor Heath:

To desire their Concurrence in the Paper concerning the French Merchant De La Salles.

2. To communicate unto them the Letter received from the General of the King's Army.

3. To communicate to them the Draught to give Power to the Commissioners to treat with the King's Commissioners.

4. To deliver to them the Instructions, what Answer to give to the King's last Propositions.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That the House of Commons agrees in the Order concerning Monsieur De La Salles; to the rest of the Particulars, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message from the H. C. about the Papers concerning the Treaty.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Evelyn Knight:

To let their Lordships know, that they have considered of the Instructions to be given to the Commissioners of both Kingdoms that are to treat with the King's Commissioners; and they have agreed to it, with One Alteration; videlicet, "That the Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, shall be treated upon Three Days a-piece (alternis vicibus) during the Space of Twenty Days, beginning First with the Propositions of Religion."

The House taking this Message into Consideration; it was Resolved, upon the Question, That this House doth not agree to the Alteration as now came from the House of Commons.

Ordered, That this House adheres and agrees to the Instructions, as they came from the Committee of both Kingdoms, and as it was sent down to the House of Commons.

Message from the H. C. with an Ordinance for the Army to be under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairfax.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Lisle, &c. who said, "He was commanded to deliver to their Lordships an Ordinance, intituled, "An Ordinance for raising and maintaining of Forces, for the Defence of the Kingdom, under the Command of Sir Thomas Fairefaix;" which Ordinance was unanimously agreed to by the House of Commons: And they look upon it as a Thing as concerns the Safety of the Kingdom; therefore desire their Lordships Concurrence therein, with as much Speed as conveniently may be."

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take this Message into Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message from the H. C. with Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Wallop:

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in the Instructions to be given to the Commissioners of both Kingdoms to treat with the King's Commissioners.

(Here enter them.)

Read, and Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to the Instructions now brought up.

Message from the H. C. to fit P. M.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Walter Erle Knight, &c. which consisted of many Particulars:

1. To let their Lordships know, that the House of Commons intends to sit this Afternoon, at Two of the Clock; and desire their Lordships would please to sit likewise, if it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, in regard of the great Affairs of the Kingdom.

and with Ordinances, &c.

2. To desire Concurrence in an Ordinance concerning the Captives of Algiers.

3. An Ordinance for Mr. Chandler and others, that lent Monies in Ireland to the Parliament's Commissioners there, to be paid by the Committee of Accompts.

4. An Ordinance for paying Arrears to Owners of Ships in Service for the State.

5. An Ordinance for taking off the Sequestration of Sir Francis Carewe's Estate.

6. An Order for adding more Persons to the Committee for Cardiganshire.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House intends to sit this Afternoon, at Two a Clock; to all the rest of the Particulars, this House will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message from the H. C. with a Vote about dividing the People into Congregations.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Tate:

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in the Vote following; videlicet,

"That the ordinary Way of dividing Christians into distinct Congregations, and most expedient for Edification, is by the respective Bounds of their Dwellings."

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to this Vote now brought up.

Earl of Denbigh against Captain Stone & al.

The Earl of Denbigh presented to this House Three Articles more, to be added to the former Articles against some of the Committee of the County of Stafford.

Earl of Pembrooke's Goods at Rughford, not to be molested:

Ordered, That the Goods of the Earl of Pembrooke's, in the House of Sir Wm. Savill, at Rughford, in the County of Nottingham, shall remain and continue as they are, without being seized or removed by any Persons whatsoever, they being the proper Goods of the Earl of Pembrooke.

Message to the H. C. about the Instructions.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Doctor Heath:

To let them know, that this House adheres to the Instructions as they came from the Committee of both Kingdoms, and as they were sent down from thence to the House of Commons.

Ordinance impowering the Commissioners of both Houses to treat with the King's Commissioners, at Uxbridge.

Be it Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That Algernone Earl of Northumberland, Phillip Earl of Pembroke and Mountgomery, William Earl of Salisbury, Bazill Earl of Denbigh, Thomas Lord Viscount Wenman, Denzill Hollis, William Pierepoint, Sir Henry Vane Junior, Oliver St. John, Bulstrode Whittlocke, John Crew, and Edmond Prideaux, shall have Power and Authority, and are hereby authorized, to join with the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, together with Alexander Henderson upon the Propositions concerning Religion only, to treat with the Lord Duke of Richmond, the Marquis of Hertford, the Earl of South'ton, the Earl of Kingston, the Lord Dunsmore, Lord Capell, Lord Seymour, Sir Christopher Hatton, Sir John Culpepper, Sir Edward Nicholas, Sir Edward Hide, Sir Richard Lane, Sir Orlando Bridgeman, Sir Thomas Gardiner, Mr. John Ashburnham, and Mr. Jeffery Palmer, or any Ten of them, upon the Propositions formerly sent to his Majesty (for a safe and well-grounded Peace), from his Majesty's humble and loyal Subjects assembled in the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, together with Doctor Stewart upon the Propositions concerning Religion only and upon His Majesty's Propositions, according to such Instructions as have been given to them, or as they from Time to Time shall receive from both Houses of Parliament."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 3^a post meridiem.

Post meridiem.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edw. Leech and Mr. Page returned with this Answer:

That they have delivered their Message.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference, about the Instructions to the Commissioners.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Dudley North:

To desire a Conference, concerning the Matter of the last Message, concerning the Instructions.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

The Earl of Manchester was appointed to report the Conference.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference.

The Earl of Manchester reported the Effect of the Conference; which was, "That they having received a Message, that their Lordships do adhere to the Instructions as they were sent down to them; but they cannot give any Answer therein, because they are not possessed of the Papers; and further, they conceive it not usual to send a positive Answer of Adherence with Reasons given."

Hereupon this House Resolved, To have a Conference with the House of Commons; and deliver to them the Papers, with Reasons.

Committee to prepare Heads for a further Conference on this Subject.

And the Earl of Manchester, the Lord Admiral, and the Lord Howard, were appointed to prepare and draw up some Reasons, to be offered to the House of Commons.

Committee for Cardigan, &c.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That James Lewis of Cardigan Esquire, David Lewis of Gyrnos, Tho. Evans, Thomas Lloyd of Guernvilig, and John Lloyd of Veyrdre, Gentlemen, be added to the Committees of Cardiganshire, Pembrookeshire, and Carmarthenshire."

Jhannes's Petition.

Upon reading the Petition of W'm Jhannes: It is Ordered, That it be referred to Mr. Justice Reeves and Mr. Justice Bacon, to certify to this House, whether the Petitioner's Business is determinable in any other Court or not.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference, about the Instructions.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To desire a present Free Conference, concerning the Matter of the late Conference.

Heads for it.

The Earl of Manchester reported what the Committee had prepared for the Conference; which was, "That this House desires it may appear to the World, that principal Care is to see the Matters of Religion, if it (fn. 4) is possible, to be agreed on in the First Place. The Lords conceive, that, by a joint Consent of both Houses, and the Commissioners of Scotland, they have already agreed that the Matters of Religion shall be in the First Place treated and agreed upon; and that this Way cannot be altered without the like joint Consent of the Commissioners of Scotland."

This being read, it was Ordered to be delivered to the House of Commons at the Conference.

Ordinance concerning the Captives at Algiers.

The Ordinance concerning the Captives of Algier was read Thrice, and Agreed to. (Here enter it.)

The Answer returned was:

Answer from the H. C.

That the House of Commons will give a present Free Conference, as is desired.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Free Conference with the House of Commons; which being ended, the House was resumed,

And the House taking this Business into Consideration;

Mr. Griffith's Business.

Ordered, That the Earl of Manchester, Lord North, and the Lord Howard, are hereby (fn. 5) added to the Committee concerning Mr. Griffith's Business; and to desire the House of Commons that they would (fn. 5) add a proportionable Number of their House.

Message from the H. C for a further Conference about the Instructions.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Harley Knight:

To desire a Free Conference, so soon as it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency, touching the Matter of the late Conference.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will give a present Free Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Goods in Dorset House, inhabited by the Earl of Rutland, not to be molested.

"The Lords, being informed that some few Goods in Dorsett House, (fn. 6) which are enjoyed by the Earl of Rutland, together with the said House, are threatened to be taken away by the Sequestrators of London, do Order, That the Consideration of this Matter be referred unto the Committee of Lords and Commons for Sequestrations; and that the Earl of Rutland, undertaking to be responsible for the said Goods, and having suffered much for his Fidelity to, and Attendance on, the Parliament, might be permitted to enjoy the same, until the Pleasure of both Houses be signified to the contrary."

Ordered, That the Concurrence of the House of Commons be desired herein.

Message to the H. C to concur in it; and about Mr. Griffith's Business.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edw. Leech and Mr. Page:

To desire their Concurrence in the Order concerning the Goods at Dorsett House.

2. To let them know, this House hath added Three Lords to be of the Committee touching Mr. Griffith, and desire them to add a proportionable Number.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference, concerning the Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty.

It was reported, "That the House of Commons adhered to their Vote."

And the House took the Business in (fn. 7) Consideration, and agreed with the House of Commons in the Alteration made by them: And the House of Commons was to be made acquainted herewith; and to be desired that they would join, in sending some of their Members, with Two Lords, to acquaint the Scotts Commissioners herewith.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure; and the Lords went into the Painted Chamber, to signify so much to the House of Commons.

The House was resumed.

Scots Commissioners to be acquainted with them.

Ordered, That the Lord Admiral, (fn. 5) and Earl of Northumb. are to carry the Papers to the Scotts Commissioners, and acquaint them with the Resolutions of both Houses concerning the Instructions.

Message from the H. C. for the Commissioners to go to Uxbridge.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Reynolds:

To let their Lordships know, that they have appointed their Members that are the Commissioners to set forth To-morrow, so as they may be at Uxbridg Tomorrow at Night; and desire that their Lordships would appoint the Members of this House, that are Commissioners, to do the like, if their Lordships shall think fit.

Ordered, That this House appoints their Members that are Commissioners to set forth, so as they may be at Uxbridge To-morrow Night.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House hath appointed their Commissioners to be at Uxbridge To-morrow at Night.

Scots Commissioners to be acquainted with it.

Ordered, That the Lord Wharton is hereby appointed to acquaint the Scotts Commissioners, that this House hath appointed their Members that are Commissioners to be at Uxbridge To-morrow at Night.

Lord Purbeck to be with the E. of Denbigh.

Ordered, That the Lord Viscount Purbecke shall be removed from Burligh on the Hill, and shall remain with the Earl of Denbigh.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they agree to the adding of Three Lords, to be of the Committee for Mr. Griffith's Business, and have nominated a proportionable Number of their House; as concerning the Order concerning Goods in Dorsett House, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Goods in Dorset House, in the Earl of Rutland's Possession, not to be molested.

Ordered, That the Committee of Sequestrations shall forbear to seize, or take away, any Goods out of Dorsett House, being in the Possession of the Earl of Rutland, until the Pleasure of this House is further signified.

Instructions for the Commissioners for the Treaty, communicated to the Scots Commissioners.

The Lord Admiral reported, "That the Committee hath acqualnted the Scotts Commissioners with the Resolutions of both Houses, concerning the Alterations in the Instructions; and they have offered to their Lordships Consideration an Addition to it, (videlicet,) That the Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, shall be treated upon Three Days apiece (alternis vicibus), during the Space of Twenty Days, beginning First with the Propositions of Religion; which, as it is of most Excellency, so it is to be sought after, and agreed upon, in the First Place, before any of the other Propositions be agreed upon."

Message from the H. C. that they adhere to them; as sent from them; and to satisfy the Scots Commissioners about it.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Henningham:

To let their Lordships know, that they adhere to the Instructions, as they were agreed upon by both Houses, without any Alterations from the Scottish Commissioners, and desire their Lordships Concurrence therein; and that some Lords of the Committees of both Kingdoms may be sent, and they will send with (fn. 8) them some Members of the House of Commons, to acquaint the Scotts Commissioners therewith, and to satisfy them in it; and that their Lordships will be pleased to sit until they return.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will sit a while, as they desired; to the other Part of the Message, their Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message to the H. C. about satisfying the Scots Commissioners, concerning the Instructions for the Treaty.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To let them know, that the Lords do agree unto the sending some of their Committees of the Committee of both Kingdoms, so join with those of the House of Commons, to endeavour to satisfy the Commissioners of Scotland in that Vote which both Houses have agreed unto.

Scots Commissioners desire Time, to deliver their Answer about them.

The Lord Admiral reported, "That the Commissioners of Scotland desire Time until To-morrow Morning, at Eight a Clock, to return their Answer."

Hereupon this House Ordered, To sit To-morrow Morning, at Eight of the Clock.

Message to the H. C. to sit Tomorrow Morning.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To let them (fn. 8) know, that this House intends to sit Tomorrow Morning, at Eight a Clock; and to desire that they would sit likewise, if it may stand with their Conveniency.

Ordinance to continue the Duty for Relief of the Captives at Algiers.

"Whereas, by an Act made this present Parliament, intituled, "An Act for the Relief of the Captives taken by the Turkish, Moorish, and other Pirates, and to prevent the Taking of others in Time to come," a Subsidy of One per Cent. was imposed, on all Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, of what Nature, Kind, of Quality whatsoever, to be exported out of, or imported into, this Kingdom of England, and Dominion of Wales; which Subsidy, or Imposition, was to continue by the said Act during the Space of Three Years, expiring this Tenth of December, 1644; and whereas the Lords and Commons, by their Ordinance of the 24th of October, 1644, for the carrying on that so pious a Work, the releasing of the said distressed Captives, and withall having respect to the Encouragement of Merchants in their Trade, did thereby Declare and Order, That only One Fourth Part of the Monies due on the several Bonds taken and due by the said Act, that is to say, One Fourth Part of the One per Cent. which is One Shilling in every Twenty Shillings paid for Custom and Subsidy, according to the now Book of Rates established by Authority of this present Parliament, (fn. 9) should be paid by the several Merchants so indebted; and to continue the Payment of the said Fourth Part of One per Cent. as before, upon all Goods and Merchandize exported and imported, unto the Expiration of the said Act.

"Now the said Lords and Commons, finding the said Work will require far greater Sums of Money than could be raised, by virtue of the said former Act and Ordinance, during the Time therein limited, by the said One Fourth Part, do Order and Ordain, That the said Ordinance of the 24th of October, 1644, concerning the collecting of the said Duty, and Imposition of One Fourth Part of One per Cent. which is One Shilling in every Twenty Shillings paid for Custom and Subsidy, according to the now Book of Rates established by Authority of this present Parliament, upon all Goods and Merchandize exported or imported into this Kingdom of England, Dominion of Wales, and Port and Town of Berwicke, shall stand and continue in full Force and Power, from the said Tenth of December, 1644, inclusive, unto the 11th of December, 1645; and that the Chamberlain of the City of London for the Time being, his Deputy or Deputies, be hereby appointed Collectors, who are hereby enabled to receive all such Sums of Money as shall hereafter, during the Continuance of this Ordinance, be payable or paid, for and in respect of the said Duty, who are hereby required to attend, at the several Custom-houses in the Port of London and Out Ports, at the usual Hours, between Nine and Twelve in the Morning, to receive the same, and to take such further Course for Dispatch of the Service, as he or they in their Wisdoms shall think fit: And it is further Ordained, That all such Sums of Money, as shall be collected and received for the said Duty aforesaid, shall from Time to Time be issued, employed, disposed, and paid, by the said Chamberlain, for and towards the Redemption of the said distressed Captives, in such Manner as by the Lord Admiral for the Time being, and the Committee for the Navy of the Commons House of Parliament, or, in the Absence of the Lord Admiral, by the Committee of the Navy, shall be ordered and directed, whose Order from Time to Time shall be his sufficient Discharge: And that the said Duty may be duly collected and paid, according to the true Intent and Meaning of this Ordinance, it is Ordained, That no Officer or Officers, belonging to any Customhouse, in the Kingdom of England, Dominion of Wales, and Town of Berwicke, do pass any Warrant Cocket, or permit any Goods to pass by any Warrant Cocket, unless the same be signed or subscribed by the Chamberlain of London, his Deputy or Deputies: And for the better Encouragement of the said Chamberlain, the Lords and Commons do Ordain, That whatsoever Act or Acts the said Chamberlain, his Deputy, Deputies, or any One of them, shall do in the Execution of this Ordinance, and whatsoever Money they shall receive and issue out by virtue of the same, they, their Heirs, Executors, and Administrators, shall be acquitted, discharged, and saved harmless, by the Power and Authority of both Houses of Parliament; provided, that the said Duty be not demanded or levied of the Merchant Strangers trading upon the Composition Trade at Dover; provided also, and it is the true Intent and Meaning of this Ordinance, that no Merchant Stranger whatsoever, as to this Duty, do pay any more than the Merchant Denizen doth; and likewise, that as touching the Duty hereby imposed, there be no Deduction or Defalcation of Fifteen Pounds per Cent.; any Thing contained in this Ordinance to the contrary in any Wise notwithstanding.

Ordinance to clear Sir Francis Carew of his Delinquency.

"Whereas Sir Francis Carew Knight hath been lately fined at the Sum of One Thousand Pounds, for his Delinquency to the Parliament; in Submission whereunto, the said Sir Francis Carew hath paid the Moiety of the said One Thousand Pounds, and given Security for the Payment of the other Moiety, to the Content of the Committee at Goldsmiths Hall, to whom the Care of levying the said Monies is referred: We, therefore, the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, do hereby Order, Ordain, and Declare, That the said Sir Francis Carew is hereby discharged from his Delinquency; and that the Estate of the said Sir Francis Carew, now under Sequestration, is, and shall be hereby, free to him the said Sir Francis, and the Sequestration taken off and discharged; and he to receive his Michaelmas Rents unreceived by the State, not exceeding One Hundred and Fifty Pounds; and the Committees and Sequestrators, or others whom it may concern, are to take Notice hereof, and to perform ready Obedience hereunto."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 8^a cras.