House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 12 March 1621

DIE Lunæ, videlicet, 12 die Martii,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

Mr. Bowyer, Clerk of the Parliament.

MEMORANDUM, The Lord Chancellor declared, That (Mr. Bowyer) the Clerk of the Parliament was so dangerous sick, that he might not come to the House, without Peril of his Life; and therefore was an humble Suitor, that he might make Henry Elsyng his Deputy, who hath also a Patent of the Clerk's Place in Reversion; and his Lordship moved, to know the Pleasure of the House, whether the said Henry Elsyng should be admitted as Deputy Clerk.

And the Lords generally agreed thereunto.

Manor of Temple-Newsham.

Hodie, the Bill, intituled, An Act to enable Edmund Clough, Esquire, and other Bargainees in Trust, to convey the Manor of Temple-Newsham, and other Lands and Tenements, in the County of Yorke, to Esme Stuart, Lord Aubigny, and Earl of March, and the Lady Katherine his Wife, or such others as they shall nominate and appoint, was brought in by the Lord Chamberlain, one of the Committees, with certain Amendments; The which Amendments were presently Twice read, and the Bill Ordered to be engrossed.

Charter House Hospital.

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Confirmation of the Hospital of King James, founded in Charter House, within the County of Midd. at the humble Petition, and at the Costs and Charges, of Thomas Sutton, Esquire, which Bill was put to the Question, and assented unto.

Hospitals and Poor Houses. Exped.

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the reviving and making perpetual of one Act, made in the Thirtyninth Year of the Reign of the late Queen Elizabeth, intituled, An Act for erecting of Hospitals, and Abiding and Working Houses, for the Poor. Being put to the Question, was assented unto.

Report made by the Earl of Arundell, &c.

Report concerning Protestation upon Honour.

(fn. 1) The Earl of Arundell reported to the House, That on Saturday last the Lords Committees for Privileges, &c. attended His Majesty, according to the Order 3 Martii. And that His Majesty was pleased to rest satisfied, as well in their inquiring of the Privileges belonging to the Peers, as also that they did no way trench into his Regal Prerogative therein, as the Judges had suggested unto the said Committee; and his Lordship further reported, That His Majesty was pleased of Himself to take Notice, that He understood that the Peers conceived it a Privilege belonging unto them, to Protest only upon their Honours, and not to be put unto Oaths, in Suits, as ordinary Subjects were; whereunto the Lords answered, It was very true, that the House had taken Consideration of it, and found much Cause to think, that, in the Times of sundry his Royal Progenitors, they had enjoyed that Privilege; which they thought the Practice of latter Times had invaded, to their Disadvantage, by incroaching upon it by little and little, when they were not careful of it: But withal they told His Majesty, that this now, was no Part of their Errand to His Majesty; and therefore besought Him to conceive, that what they spake was only as private Men, who were no way at this Time authorized in this Point from the House. His Majesty said, He understood it so; but desired them to answer Him one Question ingenuously; which was, "Whether they thought Protestation upon "Honour or Oath to bind them more?" To which the Lords all answered, una voce, That they conceived Protestation upon Honour to bind more than Oath did, as being the same before God, and before the World (in regard of the Trust given to their Degree) a far greater Charge; adding, that they conceived the constant and undoubted Privilege of trying Peers for their Honours, Blood, Lives, and Estates, only upon their Honours, did plainly prove it; and that they thought no passed Age had produced any Example of Inconvenience in the Practice of it: wherewith His Majesty seemed fully satisfied; and bad them tell the House from Him, that He willingly agreed to this Privilege, so as they would take Care the common Justice of this Kingdom might not suffer in it; and that He was so far from diminishing their Privileges, as that He would rather add unto them any that was fit.

Sir Gyles Mompesson.

The Lord Chancellor, removing from his Place to his Seat as a Peer, reported what passed at the Conference of both Houses on Saturday last; the Enducement of which Conference was, to clear the King's Honour touching Grants to Sir Gyles Mompesson, and the Passages in Procuring the same. The Effect of which Conference was, That the King, upon the Petition of Sir Gyles Mompesson to have a Patent to reform the Abuses of divers Inn-keepers, and a Warrant to compound for the Penalty of obsolete Laws, touching the Prices of Horse-meat, referred the same unto divers Judges for the Point of Law, and to divers Lords for Point of the Conveniency.

Gold and Silver Thread.

His Majesty had the like Care in granting the Patent of the Monopoly of the sole Making of Gold and Silver Thread; and shewed how Sir Henry Yelverton advised the same to be resumed into His Majesty's own Hands, and, by Indentures, to authorize divers to govern the same; which was first referred also by His Majesty to the Consideration of divers of His Counsel; that the Benefit arising to the King was set over to others, pro tempore; that the Authority granted by the King was much abused, in the Execution thereof; to the intolerable Grievance of the Subject, and much Imposture was used in the Trade.

Order to prevent Lords speaking in their own Defence at Committees, &c.

The Lord Chamberlain declared that, at the said Conference with the House of Commons, Two great Lords (meaning the Lord Chancellor and Lord Treasurer) spake in their own Defence, not being allowed so to do, when the Committees were named, and the said Conference directed and limited by this House; which was against the ancient Orders thereof: And therefore his Lordship moved, an Order to be now entered, to prevent the like hereafter, which was agreed unto; with this, that the said Two Lords should give the House Satisfaction, by the Acknowledgment of their Error herein.

Ld. Chancellor acknowledged his Error.

Whereupon the Lord Chancellor, removing to his Seat as a Peer, did acknowledge, that, contrary to the Orders of the House, he had spoken at the last Conference more than he had Direction by the House to do; and acknowledged, That he had erred therein: the which Acknowledgment the Lords generally accepted.

Ld. Treasurer acknowledged his Error.

The Lord Treasurer also made the like Acknowledgment. And it was specially moved by the Lords, That these Acknowledgments should be entered by the Clerk.

No Lords to be named Great Lords.

Moved by the Lord Spencer, and agreed unto, That no Lords of this House are to be named Great Lords, for they are all Peers.

Grievances complained of by the House of Commons.

The Lords, taking Consideration of the Grievances complained of by the House of Commons, it was Agreed, That a select Committee should be chosen, to confer with the said House, as well to demand of them such Letters Patents, Commissions, Warrants, Examinations, and other Writings, which concerned these Grievances, as also to receive by Word of Mouth such further Informations, as might conduce to the proving of such Grievances as they had complained of.

Committees for Grievances.

The Names of the said Committees: videlicet,

To meet in the Painted Chamber, at such Time as the House of Commons should agree unto, which was desired to be with Expedition.

Message to the House of Commons for a Conference.

Mr. Attorney General and Sir William Bird were sent to the House of Commons, to demand a Conference, ut supra.

They returned Answer (after long Stay) that they accepted of the Lords Motion, and would appoint Fifty of their House, to meet their Lordships, at Nine of the Clock To-morrow Morning, who should bring with them all the Letters Patents, Commissions, Warrants, Examinations, and Writings, whereof they had made Use in the Deliberation of the said Business of their Grievances now complained of; and should inform their Lordships of all other Proofs, which they verbally received, concerning the same.

They excused the long Stay of the Messengers; for that (when they came) they were in debating the Bill of Subsidy, which is now ordered by them to be engrossed.

Order of the House.

Moved by the Lord Admiral, That the ancient Order of the House is, That, before any new Business be begun, the Matter in Hand be first determined, and this to be entered.

Deputy Clerk of the Parliament to be sworn.

Moved by the Lord Bishop of Durbam, That the Clerk of the Parliament being now sick, and a Deputy appointed by him, That the Deputy may be sworn; and Agreed, That the Lords Sub-Committees for the Orders and Customs of the House, and the Privileges of the Peers of the Kingdom, and Lords of Parliament, may devise an Oath, for the said Deputy, and for other the Ministers and Attendants of this Court, to take, and to present the same to their Lordships.

The King moved not to grant the Office of Clerk of the Parliament in Reversion.

Moved by the Earl of Oxon. and agreed unto, That whereas the Deputy now appointed by the Clerk hath also a Grant from His Majesty of the said Office in Reversion, That the King be moved, not to grant any more Reversions of the same Office hereafter, until the House be first moved therein.

Adjourn.

Dominus Cancellarius declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, 13^m Martii, hora octava, Dominis sic decernentibus.