House of Lords Journal Volume 15: 18 April 1695

DIE Jovis, 18 Aprilis.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Trade with France to prohibit, Bill to fix the Commencement of the Act for.

The Earl of Bridgewater reported from the Committee, the Bill, intituled, "An Act for declaring the Commencement of an Act (intituled, An Act for continuing the Acts for prohibiting all Trade and Commerce with France, and for the Encouragement of Privateers) to be from the Time that it passed the Royal Assent; to wit, on the Fourteenth Day of March, One Thousand Six Hundred Ninty-two," as fit to pass, with One Amendment.

Which, being read Twice, was agreed to; and the Bill ordered to be engrossed.

Vellum, &c. Duties on; and Tonnage of Ships, Bill to explain the Act for.

Hodie 2^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for explaining and regulating several Doubts, Duties, and Penalties, in the late Act for granting several Duties upon Vellum, Parchment, and Paper; and for ascertaining the Admeasurement of the Tonnage of Ships."

ORDERED, That the said Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House, presently.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the said Bill.

After some Time, the House was resumed.

And the Earl of Bridgewater reported, "That the Committee had gone through the said Bill; and think it fit to pass, without any Amendment."

Message from H. C. for a Conference on the Bill to continue Laws.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Clarke and others:

To desire a Conference, upon the Lords Amendments to the Bill, intituled, "An Act for continuing and making perpetual several Laws therein mentioned."

To which the House agreed.

Answer.

The Commons, being called in again, were told, "That the Lords agree to a Conference, as desired; and appoint the same to be presently, in the Painted Chamber."

Message from H C. with a Bill.

A Message from the House of Commons, by Mr. Waller and others:

Who brought up a Bill, intituled, "An Act for raising the Militia of this Kingdom for the Year One Thousand Six Hundred Ninty-five; and for repealing the Statute of the Second and Third Year of King Edward the Sixth, intituled, An Act against shooting in Hail Shot;" to which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

Militia Bill; and to repeal the Act against shooting in Hail Shot.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for raising the Militia of this Kingdom for the Year One Thousand Six Hundred Ninety-five; and for repealing the Statute of the Second and Third Year of King Edward the Sixth, intituled, An Act against shooting in Hail Shot."

Reporters of the Conference.

Then the Lords following were named to be Reporters of the Conference:

The Commons being come to the Conference, the Reporters Names were read.

Report of the Conference about the Bill for continuing Laws.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference.

Which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Earl of Bridgewater reported, "That the Commons have agreed to all the Amendments made by their Lordships, except the Clause (A), to be added at the End of the Bill for reviving the Printing Act; to which they disagree, and give the Reasons following; (videlicet,)

Commons Reasons for disagreeing to the Clause for reviving the Printing Act.

"The Commons cannot agree to the Clause marked (A):

"1. Because it revives and re-enacts a Law which in no Wife answered the End for which it was made; the Title and Preamble of that Act being, "to prevent printing seditious and treasonable Books, Pamphlets, and Papers:" But there is no Penalty appointed for Offenders therein, they being left to be punished at Common Law (as they may be) without that Act; whereas there are great and grievous Penalties imposed by that Act, for Matters wherein neither Church nor State is any Ways concerned.

"2. Because that Act gives a Property in Books to such Persons as such Books are or shall be granted to by Letters Patents; whether the Crown had, or shall have, any Right to grant the same or not, at the Time of such Grant.

"3. Because that Act prohibits printing any Thing before Entry thereof in the Register of the Company of Stationers (except Proclamations, Acts of Parliament, and such Books as shall be appointed under the Sign Manual, or under the Hand of a Principal Secretary of State); whereby both Houses of Parliament are disabled to order any Thing to be printed; and the said Company are empowered to hinder the printing all innocent and useful Books; and have an Opportunity to enter a Title to themselves, and their Friends, for what belongs to, and is the Labour and Right of, others.

"4. Because that Act prohibits any Books to be imported (without special License) into any Port in England (except London); by which Means the whole Foreign Trade of Books is restrained to London, unless the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury or the Lord Bishop of London shall, in Interruption of their more important Affairs in governing the Church, bestow their Time gratis in looking over Catalogues of Books, and granting Licenses; whereas the Commons think the other Ports of the Kingdom have as good Right as London to trade in Books, as well as other Merchandize.

"5. Because that Act leaves it in the Power, either of the Company of Stationers, or of the Archbishop of Canterbury and Bishop of London, to hinder any Books from being imported, even into the Port of London; for if One or more of the Company of Stationers will not come to the Customhouse, or that those Reverend Bishops shall not appoint any learned Man to go thither, and be present at the opening and viewing Books imported, the Custom-house Officer is obliged to detain them.

"6. Because that Act appoints no Time wherein the Archbishop, or Bishop of London, shall appoint a learned Man, or that One or more of the Company of Stationers shall go to the Custom-house, to view imported Books; so that they or either of them may delay it till the Importer may be undone, by having so great a Part of his Stock lie dead; or the Books, if wet, may rot and perish.

"7. Because that Act prohibits any Custom-house Officer, under the Penalty of losing his Office, to open any Packet wherein are Books, until some or One of the Company of Stationers, and such learned Man as shall be so appointed, are present; which is impracticable, since he cannot know there are Books till he has opened the Packet.

"8. Because that Act confirms all Patents of Books granted, and to be granted; whereby the sole printing of all or most of the Classic Authors are, and have been for many Years past, together with a great Number of the best Books, and of most general Use, monopolized by the Company of Stationers; and prohibits the importing any such Books from beyond Sea, whereby the Scholars in this Kingdom are forced, not only to buy them at the extravagant Price they demand, but must be content with their ill and incorrect Editions, and cannot have the more correct Copies which are published Abroad, nor the useful Notes of Foreigners or other learned Men upon them.

"9. Because that Act prohibits any Thing to be printed till licensed; and yet does not direct what shall be taken by the Licenser for such License; by Colour whereof, great Oppression may be, and has been, practised.

"10. Because that Act restrains Men bred up in the Trade of Printing and Founding of Letters from exercising their Trade, even in an innocent and inoffensive Way (though they are Freemen of the Company of Stationers), either as Masters or Journeymen; the Number of Workmen in each of these Trades being limited by that Act.

"11. Because that Act compels Master Printers to take Journeymen into their Service, though they have no Work or Employment for them.

"12. Because that Act restrains all Men who are not licensed by the Bishop from selling innocent and inoffensive Books, though never so useful, in any Part of England, except Freemen of the Company of Stationers, who may sell without such License; so that neither Church nor State is taken Care of thereby, but the People compelled to buy their Freedom of Trade in all Parts of England from the Company of Stationers in London.

"13. Because that Act prohibits any one, not only to print Books whereof another has entered a Claim of Property in the Register of the Company of Stationers, but to bind, stitch, or put them to Sale, and that under a great Pecuniary Penalty; though it is impossible for a Bookbinder, Stitcher, or Seller, to know whether the Book brought to him were printed by the Proprietor or another.

"14. Because that Act prohibits Smiths to make any Iron-work for any Printing Press, without giving Notice to the Company of Stationers, under the Penalty of Five Pounds; whereas he may not know to what Use the Iron bespoke of him, and forged by him, may be put.

"15. Because that Act prohibits printing and importing, not only heretical, seditious, and schismatical Books, but all offensive Books, and doth not determine what shall be adjudged offensive Books; so that, without Doubt, if the late King James had continued in the Throne till this Time, Books against Popery would (fn. 1) not have been deemed offensive Books.

"16. Because that Act subjects all Mens Houses, as well Peers as Commoners, to be searched at any Time, either by Day or Night, by a Warrant under the Sign Manual, or under the Hand of One of the Secretaries of State, directed to any Messenger, if such Messenger shall upon probable Reason suspect that there are any unlicensed Books there; and the Houses of all Persons free of the Company of Stationers are subject to the like Search, on a Warrant from the Master and Wardens of the said Company, or any One of them.

"17. Because the Penalties for Offences against that Act are excessive; it being in the Power of the Judges or Justices of the Peace to inflict what Punishment they please, not extending to Life or Member.

"18. Lastly, There is a Proviso in that Act for John Streater, that he may print what he pleases, as if the Act had never been made; when the Commons see no Cause to distinguish him from all the rest of the Subjects of England."

After Debate,

The Clause to be left out:

The Question was put, "Whether this House will agree with the Commons, in leaving out the Clause (A)?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H. C. to acquaint them with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Legard and Sir John Hoskyns:

To let them know, the Lords have agreed with them, in leaving out the Clause marked (A), added to the said Bill by their Lordships.

Reflections on this House, in a Cause in Chancery about Convex Lights, and a Lease of Lands from the City:

The House this Day taking into Consideration the several Examinations and Reports made and taken in this House, relating to the Convex Lights, and a Lease of Land lately made by the City of London to the Lord Marquis of Normanby;

After Debate, this Question was put,

Resolution, that, upon these Examitions no just Cause for Censure appears against the Marquis of Normanby.

Whether, upon the Examination taken in relation to the Matter of the Convex Lights, while the Orphans Bill was depending in this House, or concerning a Lease of some Lands lately passed to the Lord Marquis of Normanby by the City of London, there does appear any just Cause of Censure from this House, upon the said Lord Marquis of Normanby?"

It was Resolved in the Negative.

Examinations concerning a Complaint against the Marq. of Normanby, for irregular Proceedings, in delivering the Opinion of this House, without Doors, to Persons whose Cause had been pleaded at the Bar, so as to induce them to compound their Interests; and in receiving a Present from the City, gratifying him for Services done, and expected to be done for them, in this House:

"Because these following Words were complained of, as highly reflecting on the Honour of this House; (videlicet,) That Hutchinson, by Writing under his Hand and Seal, bearing Date the Fifteenth Day of March last past, did authorize and empower Arthur Moore to dispose of 1/32 th Part, the Whole in 32 Parts to be divided, in the Convex Lights, for promoting his the said Hutchinson's Interest in Parliament; which the said Moore for that Purpose did dispose to Roman Russell Gentleman.

"And thereupon the Examinations following were taken:

"Ar. Moore. Q. What Account he gives the House of such a Part of an Answer put in by him into Chancery?

"Ans. He confesses the Words of the Answer; but pretends the Shares are inconsiderable, not worth above £. 20 a Share.

"Q. To whom, and for what Considerations, that Share was made over?

"Ans. That he made over One of his own Shares to Mr. Roman Russell, having offered him that which he was empowered to dispose of by Hutchison: That no Money was given for it; but, having been long acquainted with Mr. Russell, and knowing he had served many Lords, he thought it proper to bestow that Share upon him, to solicit and apprize the Lords of the Case."

"S. Hutchison. Q. Whether he made an Assignment to Mr. Moore in such Words?

"Ans. That a Share he did assign to Mr. Arthur Moore, to promote his Interest in Parliament; but was ignorant to whom disposed of, and refers himself to his Note."

"R. Russell. Q. Whether any Shares in the Interest of the Convex Lights were offered him by Mr. Moore?

"Ans. That a Share that Mr. Hutchison had empowered Mr. Moore to dispose of was offered him, for to solicit the Lords, and apprize them of the Case; but that, not knowing Mr. Hutchison, he accepted One of Mr. Moor's own Shares, upon Condition he might be obliged to no Charges in case he should choose at any Time to surrender his Interest.

"Q. What he knew of the Merits of the Case of Hutchison's Pretences, and whom he had solicited?

"Ans. That a Petition was to be delivered; which Petition if it were not received, Hutchinson and Moore were lost: That he had spoke to the Marquis of Normanby, and told him, "he was concerned with Hutchison, who promised to bring it in:" That he could not remember the Name of any other Lord he had spoken to, and came not the last Day till the Business was over."

"Mr. Hobbs. Q. What were the Motives to the sudden Agreement made up with Hutchison, when his Cause was depending in this House?

Ans. That he was absent and sick, and had given positive Orders to consent to no Agreement; but that his Father-in-Law was compelled, with the rest, to consent to Hutchison's Terms.

"Q. What Account those concerned gave him of the Transaction?

"Ans. That his Father-in-Law had given him this Account, "That they were all tumultuously forced to agree;" and Sir Thomas Millington had informed him, "That my Lord Normanby came out several Times; and told him, the Bill would not pass, unless they immediately agreed with Hutchison."

"Q. What Shares he had?

"Ans. One and an Half.

"Q. Whether he had not said, "The Interest he had was so inconsiderable, that he wished he had never meddled with it?"

"Ans. He had said, "He would not undergo the like Trouble for ever so much."

"Sir T. Millington, to the First Question asked Dr. Hobbs:

"Ans. That he was compelled to it, by Messages from this Honourable House of Peers; and being assured from the House of Lords the Bill should not or would not pass, unless they immediately agreed with Hutchison.

"Q. Who gave him such Assurances, and brought such Intimations from the House of Lords?

"Ans. Lord Marquis of Normanby, in the Duke of Norfolk's Room.

"Q. Did any other give him such Information?

"Ans. No other Lord.

"Q. Did he give Mr. Hobbs formerly an Account to such Effect?

"Ans. He did give such an Account to Mr. Hobbs; and told him, "they were forced to sign the Agreement."

"Q. How could they be forced? It was an hard Word. Who could force them?

"Ans. He meant, they came resolved not to sign; but submitted unwillingly to it, because they were apprized it would otherwise not pass the House of Lords.

"Q. Of what Value a Share?

"Ans. He had heard, One Thousand Pounds was given before the passing the Bill; and that it stood him in Twelve Hundred Pounds, to entitle himself to the One Share which he had."

"Mr. Lilly, to the First Question:

"Ans. He hoped it was no Agreement: That it was true they had signed a Paper, but were forced to it: That there was an Uproar at the Doors of the House of Lords; and that they were afraid of being torn in Pieces, if they did not sign the Agreement, by Agents, Solicitors, and Orphans, all complaining of the certain Loss of the Bill, unless an Agreement were made with Hutchison."

"Mr. Nois. Q. Whether he had said to any Person, "The Bill would not pass, unless an Agreement was made with Hutchison?"

"Ans. He believes he might say so; because he heard the Marquis of Normanby say to Sir T. Millington, "The Bill would be lost, unless there was an immediate Agreement with Hutchison."

"Q. Whether he heard any other Lord say so?

"Ans. He had heard no other Lord say so."

"Sir T. Powys. Q. How he came to set his Hand to Moor's Answer, where such Expressions were used?

"Ans. He had not set his Hand; but the Solicitor as usually had put his Name to it: that The Words taken Notice of were not the Words of the Counsel, but the very Words of the Agreement, which were the Foundation of the Cause, and must be recited: That he did acquaint Mr. Moore, "that they were Words of an ill Sound; and that it must appear plainly there was no Corruption, but only such a lawful Reward as might be given to one (fn. 2) that might lawfully solicit; that else it would give no equitable Interest."

"Mr. Clapham. Q. What he knew of certain Conditions reserved to him in a Paper made between Hutchison and Moore?

"Ans. That he never knew of any such Paper till this very Day; and his Name was made Use of unknown to him."

Mr. Hutchison. Q. Whether he did acquaint Mr. Clapham of the Writing in which his Name was inserted?

"Ans. He did tell him of it within a Week after; who called him Fool, for not having kept a Copy of it."

"Mr. Chiswell. Q. What he had sold any Share for, after they were divided in 64ths ?"

"Ans. He had sold a 64th, this last Summer, for £. 400, clear of all Charges."

"Mr. Moore. Q. Whether Mr. Smith had not offered him £.2000, for Four Shares?

"Ans. He had so; but under the Condition of deserting Hutchison, which no Consideration should make him do."

The House this Day taking into Consideration the several Examinations and Reports made and taken in this House, relating to the Convex Lights, and a Lease of Land lately made to the Lord Marquis of Normanby by the City of London (which were in Manner as herein after follows); (videlicet,)

"Questions agreed on by the House, concerning a Piece of Ground, behind Clarendon House, lately granted to the Lord Marquis of Normanby.

"To which, Lane (lately the City Comptroller) deposeth;

"1 Question:

"What he knows in relation to a Grant of Lands lying behind Clarendon House, made by the City of London; to whom, and for what Consideration, such Grant was made?

"2 Question:

"Whether he knows of any Threats or hard Language used by any and what Person, to any Officer of the City, with respect to the procuring such Grant; and if he doth, then to acquaint the House with his Knowledge of the whole Matter relating to such Grant?

"3 Question:

"Whether he knows what Motives and Arguments were made Use of to the Committee for the City Lands, to induce them to make such Grant; and if he doth, then to give an Account what those Motives and Arguments were, and by whom made Use of?

"4th Question:

"Whether he knows of any Offers made by any Person, for procuring an Act of Parliament to pass, in order to clear the doubtful Title to such Lands then to be granted by the City?

"5th Question:

"Whether he can tell of any Person who can acquaint the House with the same Matter which he giveth Testimony of, or can remember to whom he hath formerly told the same; and to name them?

"6th Question:

"Whether there were no other Considerations or Inducements, that he knows of, for granting the Lease or Grant aforementioned, but what are in the City Books; and if there were any, what they were?

"7th Question:

"What Orders have been made in the City, for limiting the Terms of Leases granted by the City?

"8th Question:

"Whether he hath been threatened or cautioned, at any Time, in respect to his giving Testimony before the Lords, and by whom?

"9th Question:

"Whether he has informed any Person, and whom, "that most of the Committee were against letting the Lease;" and who were against it; and how they came to change their Opinions?

"10th Question:

"Whether Propositions of my Lord's serving the City, in relation to the Water or other Public Bills, were made by Mr. Sloane, or any other, as from his Lordship?

"11th Question:

"Why he and some others of the Committee did oppose the Lease?

"12th Question:

"What he and the rest of the Committee thought at any Time to be the Value of this Lease for 100 Years, to commence upon the Expiration of the Lease now in Being?

"Answer to 1st Question:

"Lane faith, There is a Lease made to my Lord Normanby; and it was made upon an Order of Common Council, referring it to a Committee: The Lease is executed, with the Orders and Agreements relating thereunto; the Counterpart of the Lease is signed by the Lord Normanby; which, together with the Orders and Agreements made, are in the City Books, now in the Custody of Mr. Wilmot, Comptroller of the Chamber of Lond'n.

"To 2d Question:

"That he was obliged, by the Commands of the (fn. 3) City for City Lands, to wait on my Lord Normanby, where there happened some angry Words to him; it was upon a Dispute of some Covenants in the Lease: That he was to meet Mr. Hawles at my Lord's; Mr. Hawles did not meet. My Lord said to this Effect following; "That he apprehended I did endeavour to stop the Lease; but it was not in my Power to do it, and it should pass: That I was a little Officer of the City, and he would shew me my Weakness; he would have it." I said, "T was not in my Power to stop the Lease; I would not be persuaded or threatened out of the Trust reposed in me, by any Subject whatsoever;" or Words to that Effect. He knows nothing of any Threatening to any other Person That this is a Lease for One Hundred Years, to commence after a Lease (of more Ground) formerly let to the Earl of Clarendon doth expire, in 1765.

"To 3d Question:

"That it appears in the Books, that this Matter was transacting about a Year. The Grounds for granting the Lease are entered in the Books. It was said, "My Lord had been serviceable to the City of London, and might be so still. If my Lord had this Lease, he would endeavour to procure an Act of Parliament for securing and settling some Doubts in the Title to those Lands." It was said, "My Lord had been kind to the City in a Bill formerly in this House, relating to their Water in Southwarke; that they might have received Prejudice, if he had not been their Friend." These Arguments were used by some of the Committee, and sometimes by others. Sir Robert Clayton was Chairman of that Committee: I believe Sir Rob't Clayton might say something; and Mr. Dorvill also, who attends the House. Mr. Buckingham was of the Committee: The Committee was, Six Aldermen and Twelve Commoners. There is something of that Kind in the Order of Common Council: An Account of it was reported by the Committee to the Common Council; and that in the Act of Parliament there should be Covenants for securing the City Pipes. Some were for it, and some against it; but it was carried by the Majority. The Order of Common Council is dated about the 24th of January was Twelve-month; but referred to the Books. He faith, it was said, "That there should be no Lease until the Act passed." It was proposed, "That my Lord should covenant to get an Act;" but my Lord refused: And it was altered, "That my Lord should endeavour to get an Act;" and that, he thinks, is in the Lease.

"To 4th Question:

"That Mr. Sloane (from my Lord) said, at the Committee, "That his Lordship would endeavour to get such an Act." It was said, "There had been Differences amongst the Builders, which hindered the Building; and which, if the Act passed, would be made clear, that so the Building might proceed."

"Mr. Sloane said (from my Lord), "That, in the Act, there should be Endeavours for a Clause to empower the City's Trustee (an Infant) to transfer the City's Estate in that and other Lands of a considerable Value to new Trustees."

"To 5th Question:

"That the Committee who transacted this Affair can depose farther to this Question; Sir Rob't Clayton, Sir Thomas Stamp, Sir Rich'd Levet, and Sir Edw'd Clarke, were of that Committee; the Names of the rest are mentioned in the Book: That he hath spoke of these Things to some of the Committee; (videlicet,) Mr. Balloe: That Mr. Dan'l Man, the Hallkeeper, was with him Once with my Lord, when there was some Discourse with his Lordship, which he this Deponent wrote down in Characters, and, as he thinks, did read to the Committee. He faith, his Papers are in Confusion; and believes he hath spoken to Mr. Maurice of this Matter: He thought it his Duty to endeavour to get as much as he could for the City's Advantage.

"To 6th Question:

"That there were several Discourses about that Matter, which were not entered: In general, it was said, my Lord Normanby had been, and might be, serviceable to the City. The Orphans Bill was then passing; it was apprehended, by those for the Lease, my Lord might be a good Friend to the Orphans Bill.

"To 7th Question:

"They have been sometimes limited to 31, and 41, and 61 Years; but 61 has been the largest, except some Leases presently after the Fire of London, which were granted for 81 Years; but in this Case there was a particular Order for such Time as the Committee should think fit, as it appears by the said Order.

"To 8th Question:

"He never did hear he was to give Testimony; nor was he threatened by any Person.

"To 9th Question:

"He hath said, "that several of the Committee were against the Lease;" and believes he hath often said it; he doth not remember any particular Person to whom he hath said it. Mr. Balloe and Mr. Deputy Gardiner were against it; some were willing to have had more Money. Those who were against it, continued so till there were some Views made; at which some changed, and did not think the Thing so valuable. Mr. Maurice made some Opposition to it.

"Answer to 10th Question:

"This Deponent faith, No such Propositions as are contained in this Question were made by Mr. Sloane, or any other, as from his Lordship. Mr. Sloane mentioned nothing of that Kind; some of the Committee spoke it as their Apprehensions. I apprehended it as if my Lord had expressed it so to some of them: Some of the Committee were of Opinion it was not so valuable as others of them thought it.

"Answer to 11th Question:

"It was apprehended the Ground was of more Value than that for which it was granted: It is about Four Acres of Ground; the Rent reserved is 40 s. per Annum; no Fine was paid. There was a greater Value at first. There was a Grant for a Pepper-corn. My Lord was pleased to put in the 40 s. Some thought it worth £. 12 per Annum.

"Answer to 12th Question:

"It was apprehended to be too long a Lease; the Ground might be valuable to the City hereafter, if built: He was of Opinion it might be very valuable to the City; some thought it worth £. 12 per Annum; others thought it worth little or nothing, as he remembers."

Lane's Second Examination;

"The said Lane, at his Second Examination, being asked to give an Account of what Discourse passed, when he and Mr. Man were with the Lord Normanby, which he said was some Time after wrote down in Characters; deposeth,

"That he hath the Paper here, writ in Short Hand; it is what he could remember at that Time mentioned in this Question; it was wrote, to give the Committee an Account; it hath a great many Impertinencies in it: He thinks he read it to the Committee. He waited on my Lord on the 25th June, 1694; but refers to the Order in the Book, which was made for him to wait on my Lord with Proposals. The Usage of the Committee is, that nothing be delivered out till the Committee meet again to see the Minutes be right taken. My Lord was pleased to take Notice, "the Committee had been long about it;" the Order was the 24th January. My Lord, on Perusal of the Paper, took some Displeasure at the Arrears: My Lord had Part of what was granted to the Lord Chancellor Clarendon; £.8 per Annum was reserved on the Whole, and the City would have the Arrears. His Lordship said, "There were Mistakes in the Paper I brought; Sir Rob't Clayton, he said, told him so." His Lordship excepted against covenanting to procure an Act of Parliament; he said, "None but King, Lords, and Commons, could make an Act." This Deponent proposed, that the Covenant might be, "to endeavour to procure an Act." His Lordship thought it was not the Act of the Committee; and that, whatever Trouble they gave themselves, it must be so at last. He this Deponent acquainted my Lord, "the procuring the Act was mentioned as One of the Considerations for this Lease." His Lordship said (as he this Deponent took it), "that must be no Consideration;" he said, "it was a Present to him for Kindness or Service to the City," or to that Effect; but hath not an absolute Memory in that. His Lordship said, "How could he secure their Water-pipes, when they could not do it themselves?" He this Deponent said, "He hoped they had a Power to secure themselves, by the said former Lease to the Lord Clarendon." His Lordship said, "If so, then they needed not his Help; and the Intention of the Committee, as he was told, was otherwise; but he believed I would not alter their Orders: His Lordship did not expect the Committee should come to him; and he hoped they expected not his coming to them." His Lordship said, "He was not Suitor to them, but they were so to him; he was to be at no Charge:" This was about paying for Orders. My Lord was displeased he had not the Minutes of the Committee the Wednesday preceding: He this Deponent told him, "The Usage was not to give out the Minutes till they had been read at another Committee." There were Difference of Opinions in the Committee; some of them thought the Thing valuable, and so did he this Deponent; others did not so. Afterwards the Matter went on, till it came to the Lease that now is. He this Deponent believes the Arrears are paid."

Ballow's Examination;

"Augustine Ballow, upon Oath, deposeth;

"To Question 1st:

"That he was out of Town when a great Part of that Matter was acted. The First Proposal was for Three Acres, after for Five Acres, and a Pepper-corn Rent, on Condition to be settled. The Rent was afterwards made Forty Shillings per Annum. He this Deponent was not there when the Lease was made: The Consideration was, "for his Lordship to procure an Act of Parliament, for quieting some Titles, and securing the Pipes:" He this Deponent did not think the Considerations valuable. Several Proposals were made, which he doth not remember; and refers to the Book. It is rarely done, to let a new Lease until within Three Years of Expiration of the former, unless upon extraordinary Considerations. It was used as an Argument at the Committee, "that my Lord had been serviccable to the City, and might be so still;" and instanced, in opposing Mr. Gulston's Bill. There was an Order of Common Council, for the Committee to enlarge the Term; Sir Rob't Clayton said, "My Lord had been serviceable in opposing Mr. Gulston's Bill, and might be farther serviceable."

"To Question 2d:

"He doth not remember any Thing farther than he hath instanced.

"To Question 3d:

"That they have had such Discourses among them: It was moved, as a Consideration to them, "that the Houses would tumble down, if the Act was not obtained."

"To Question 7th:

"He believes there are such Orders; and refers to the Books.

"This Question was asked him, Whether he was never spoke to by Mr. Lane, to oppose this Lease?

"To which he deposed as followeth: That Mr. Lane was Comptroller; and it was his Business to inform them out of the Books. He has discoursed his Opinion to this Deponent; who told him, "That, after this Lease expired, they ought to make as great Advantage as they could." He this Deponent doth believe it was the said Lane's Judgement, that this Lease should not be granted. He this Deponent cannot say, whether the said Lane spoke to him to oppose it or not.

"A Question was asked him, What the Services to be done were?

"To which he deposed, That Sir Rob't Clayton did not instance the further Services."

Reports from the Committee:

"The Reports of the Examinations, at the Committee, were as follow:

"John Maurice Esquire deposeth;

"To 1st Question (aforementioned):

Maurice's Examination:

"That, some Time after Christmas 1693, there was in the City of Lond'n a Committee appointed, of Six Aldermen and Twelve Commoners, of which Committee he was One; he most commonly attended till May, afterwards seldom. He being one Day there, a Proposition was made for letting some Ground to the Marquis of Normanby, for building an House upon. The whole Committee was to be summoned, to view the Ground. He this Deponent, thinking it unreasonable to make a Lease after 70 Years then in Being, did not go; those who went reported to the Committee. The Order of the Common Council is, "that Leases be for 21 Years; or, in case of great Repairs, for 31 Years: If for new-building, then for 41 Years." It is the positive Order of the Common Council, "that no Leases be renewed till within Three Years of the Expiration of the former Lease." He remembers not that they ever broke this Rule; but, to the best of his Remembrance, the Common Council did not limit the Committee in any Particular relating to this Affair, but left it to their Discreation. He hath heard, that after the Fire some Leases, in case of new-building, were let for 81 Years; and he hath known some made for 60 Years in like Case; but now they are restrained, as aforesaid. Afterwards a Debate was in the Committee, whether my Lord Normanby should have such Lease. He this Deponent disapproved thereof, because he never knew such an Order for so long a Lease; and opposed it as much as he could, because it was unreasonable, and broke all their Measures. The Question being put, it was carried that my Lord should have the Lease; after which, whenever this Matter was debated in the Committee, he this Deponent went away, disliking the Thing, and would have no more to do with it.

"To 3d Question (aforementioned):

"He faith, the Arguments used in the Committee were, "That the Lord Normanby had done the City great Service; that he had been a great Friend to the City, in passing the Orphans Bill; and, being a Man of great Parts, and great Interest in the House of Lords, was able to serve the City in the future."

"To 4th Question (aforementioned):

"That he this Deponent knows not any Thing offered. It was proposed by the Committee to Mr. Sloane, "that my Lord should be at the Charge;" but Mr. Sloane said, "My Lord would not condescend to it."

"A Question was asked him, What Time this Matter was debated in the Committee?

"To which he faith, It was some Time last Summer, after the Orphans Bill was passed."

Sir Rob't Clayton deposeth;

"To 1st Question (aforementioned):

Sir R. Clayton's Examination;

"Answer, That he can only answer in general Terms: It is a Thing was transacting 12 Months: That all the City Books, relating to that Matter, may be soon had: That he was out of Town when this Examination began; and refers to the Books for that Matter. He faith, There was a Motion in Common Council, "that a Person of Quality had a Mind to build a House on a Piece of Ground belonging to the City, behind Clarendon House: That the same laid waste several Years, and no Rent paid for it; some Part of it built upon Foundations laid; and other Part of it not finished, by reason of Difference among the Proprietors: That it was likewise prejudicial to the Waters of the City, for the Ground to lay so waste;" and it was proposed, "that an Act of Parliament should be procured, on Agreement of all Parties, to settle that Matter; and the City Conduit-waters preserved, and Improvement made to the City." On Debate whereof, the Common Council referred it to the Committee for City Lands, to gratify that Person, on such Terms, and under such Rents and Covenants, as they should think fit. He faith, that no Lord was named in the Common Council.

"A Question being asked, Whether the Marquis of Normanby spoke not publicly to him, or ever desired his Name should be concealed?

"To which this Deponent faith, That his Lordship spoke to Sir John Houblon, to this Deponent, and Two or Three other Citizens, in the Bishops Lobby, about building a House for himself to live in. He this Deponent told my Lord, "They of the Committee had no Power to grant so long a Term." My Lord desired no Concealment of his Name: This Matter was known to several.

"A Question being asked, Whether no Rent was made of this Piece of Ground?

"He faith, There was 7, 8, or 9 Years Rent in Arrear. There were 28 Acres let to my Lord Clarendon, at £.8 per Ann.; which Lease now coming among the Builders, who had quarrelled and broke, the City knew not of whom to demand the Rent. It was proposed to my Lord, "that £.72, which was in Arrear, should be paid by him, before the Lease should be granted:" It is since paid, but not by his Lordship. He faith, They hunted it out, and believes it might possibly have been got, though they had not made my Lord a Lease; but they had Informations from my Lord's Agents where to get it.

To Question 3d (aforementioned):

"This Deponent faith, When the Debate was in Common Council, to persuade them to go out of their Method to grant a long Lease, he hath already said it was added to it, "that (fn. 4) it was to a Person of Honour, who had been kind to the City, and might be so for the future." This, he thinks, was at the First Common Council, in January, 1693, before the Orphans Bill was on the Anvil in the House of Commons; and for any Business depending in the Houses, they think themselves obliged to any Person of Honour who is kind to them. He had been informed, this Lord had been kind to the City. He believes there was then a Petition in the House of Commons; but the Committee of Commons had not then sat on it. This Deponent faith, his Business at the Committee was in the Chair: He used no Arguments, but "that they should make a Bargain that should be for the Interest of the City, fit for them to embrace, and agreeable to the Trust they had for the City:" That he was so far from using extraordinary Arguments for my Lord, that he believes those Things which my Lord thought most hard were proposed by him to the Committee. It was the Interest of the Committee, to have this Matter settled, and their Waters secured. He might perhaps say, "If this were for the Interest of the Committee, they should not be shy in gratifying a Person of Honour in his Request of such a Thing."

"A Question being asked, Whether, in the former Lease, there were no Covenants for securing the City's Pipes and Waters?

"This Deponent faith, There are the same and other Covenants in this Lease as were in the former to my Lord Clarendon; but, those Covenants being fallen into bad Hands, the City knew not how to recover their Rent, much less Damages. He believes the Committee was not apprized of the Arrear till this Matter was considered: He hath been told, the Arrear is received, and that there hath been no Suit.

"A Question was asked, Whether the City had not Auditors, or other Officers, to represent Mismanagement or Omissions in their Affairs?

"To which this Deponent faith, They have an Auditor, who audits their Accompts Once a Year; a Chamberlain, who receives their Rents; and a Comptroller, who is Clerk to the Committee: That several Members of the City are joined with the Auditor by the Common Hall: Sometimes one Officer, sometimes another, lays Things before them. Auditor Phillips, till within these Two or Three last Years, was Auditor. Mr. Harrison was One of the Auditors appointed by the Common Hall for the last Year. There were several Views of this Land by Subcommittees; and they made their Reports, with their Opinions and Reasons; several of which Persons, he believes, are without, attending.

"To Question 4th (aforementioned):

"That he hath already said, that my Lord Normanby proposed, upon Agreement to be made among the Parties concerned in the Building, in which Agreement his Lordship might be instrumental, that he said, "he would take a Piece of Ground, in order to build a House; but it was necessary to have an Act of Parliament to settle that Matter, that the Building might go on, to the Improvement of the City Ground, and Provision made better to secure the Water in that Place."

"A Question being asked, Whether the Length of this Lease was a Prejudice to the City, and what Prejudice?

"This Deponent faith, They of the Committee (fn. 5) have done the same Thing to others; they are under Restrictions without Direction from the Common Council; but the Common Council are under no Restraint.

"The Deponent further faith, If the Concern of the City there had been his own, he would have given my Lord Normanby, or any other Person, Four Acres of the Land, to have secured him the Improvement of the rest, and securing of the Waters. If my Lord built, it would improve the Ground, by occasioning other good Buildings there: That, the Thing being settled by Act of Parliament, those Buildings would be carried on, to the great Improvement of the City's Revenue after 70 Years. They have my Lord's Covenant, in the Lease, for securing the Waters in præsenti by a dry Drain, though his Lease does not commence till 70 Years. He believes my Lord doth not covenant to build a House.

"The Order of the 24th January, 1693, being entered in the City's Common Council Book, and read; a Question was thereupon asked, In what my Lord Normanby had been so friendly to the City?

"To which this Deponent faith, That he knows nothing of his own Knowledge; but hath been told, by a Committee that solicited a Bill in relation to the Waters in Southwark, that his Lordship had been kind to the City upon that Account. That Bill would have debarred the City of a Rent of £.200 per Annum, and £.400 Fine, or Arrear of Rent. The Bill began, and was rejected, in the House of Lords.

"A Question being asked, Whether he signed the Report from the Committee, of the 24th January, 1694?

"He faith, He believes he signed it; and where his Name is, he believes he signed the Book."

"Owen Buckingham deposeth;

"To 1st Question:

"There was a Lease made to the Marquis of Normanby, a little before Christmas, 1693, (as he thinks) for 99 Years, after 70 Years in Being, at Forty Shillings per Annum Rent: He was present when it was agreed.

"That, there being a Motion made (about Christmas Twelve Months), at the Common Council, for longer Time than usual, the said Council gave Leave. They have Rules, not to let for above 21 or 41 Years, without Consent of Common Council; but in case of Building, or Improvement, for longer Terms; which had particularly happened the last Year. Some Tenants at Deptford, having 41 Years in a Lease, and intending to build, and asking 20 Years longer, it was granted. He remembers not that Leave hath been asked above Twice; (videlicet,) the Deptford Case, and my Lord Normanby's. He hath been of the Common Council but Two Years; and faith, they had Leave for this Lease. He was at first against letting Leases for so long Time to come. He saw, upon View of this Ground, that it was a Laystall, and saw Dung brought there; he thought it a ruinous Ground; and having Mr. Aldersey with him, who had laid the Pipes in the Ground, by which they had made a great Improvement, he informing them, "that if the Dung were laid there, where the Foundations were dug, and the Springs were, it would spoil and ruin our Springs in that and the other Part of the Mead." Whereupon he this Deponent thought it was the Interest of the City to let my Lord a Lease, in order to build a Mansion-house on the Ground now let to him, rather than let it lie as it was. And he this Deponent was the rather induced to it, because he understood the Builders were in so broken a Condition, as to need an Act of Parliament to settle them; and he also hoped the City might get a Clause in the Act, to keep the rest of the Ground from being built, and their Pipes from being spoiled and annoyed.

"He being asked, What Act he means, in which such a Clause was expected: The Deponent saith, he means a Private Act, by Consent of the Builders and all Parties; and thinks Mr. Fowks advised the Act. He takes this Ground, let to my Lord at Forty Shillings per Annum, to be the Seventh Part of the Ground let to my Lord Clarendon, as he hath heard, for 99 Years, at Eight Pounds per Annum. He hath also heard there are 70 Years to come of that Lease.

"To 3d Question (beforementioned):

"This Deponent saith, He hath heard that my Lord Normanby desired to buy; but they could not sell. The Committee, he believes, were inclined to answer his Desire, in letting him have it to build a Mansion-house, which they heard would cost him £.20,000. This Deponent saith, If it had been his own Estate, he should have consented to such a Lease: He thinks the securing their Pipes and Springs, which make near £. 1000 per Annum, Fine and Rent, was Consideration enough. He saith, they have £. 700 per Annum Rent, and £. 2650 Fine.

"A Question being asked, Whether these are all the Motives?

"He saith, These are the Arguments which prevailed with him; he knows no other Arguments: These are the Arguments we used amongst ourselves. He never saw nor heard the Lease to my Lord Clarendon read; he was not present when the Lease was made to the Lord Normanby; he believes he hath heard it said in the Committee, "that my Lord would build a House;" that he hath heard Mr. Russell say so: That he believed my Lord would build a House, which induced him this Deponent; and if it had been his Ground, he would have let it upon that Consideration.

"To the 4th Question (beforementioned):

"Saith, There was a Proposal to my Lord, "that he should have the Lease, if he would get a Private Act, with our Clause in it to secure our Pipes." He was to build a House in Three Years; otherwise the Lease to be void. To our Proposal of getting an Act, his Lordship said, "The King, Lords, and Commons only, make an Act; it was not in his Power." But, at last, he agreed to do his Endeavour to get the Clause in.

"The Order of the 24th January, 1693, being read; the Question was asked, What were the Inducements for making that Order?

"To which this Deponent faith, The Inducements were, from the Motion there made from Sir Robert Clayton, or some other Member; and he remembers not that any one opposed it. He faith, he this Deponent made not the Motion; he believes he signed the Report of the 24th January, 1694: That he was out of Town most Part of December, and believes he signed it as the general Report: He knows not what Instructions the Comptroller had to draw it: He faith, They frequently sign the Proceedings of a preceding Committee at a following Committee-day, although they who sign were not present at the preceding Committee."

Sir Pat. Ward's Examination;

"Sir Patience Ward;

"To the 1st, 3d, and 4th Question, could not depose: But faith, he hath been of the Committee for City Lands; but was seldom there, by reason of his Attendance on other Business."

Dorville's Examination;

"Dan'l Dorville deposeth:

"To Question 1st (beforementioned): There is about 4 Acres of Ground let to the Lord Marquis of Normanby; he thinks it is after the Expiration of 70 Years, formerly let to the Lord Clarendon; it is now let for 40s. per Annum; and 20s. down, to the Poors Box. The Reasons which induced him are, that the City hath a great Concern about that Place in Springs and Pipes, which are now let for £. 700 per Annum, and £. 2650 Fine: That their Surveyor advised the securing those Pipes, which they thought by this Lease were better secured than they were before. They agreed, that his Lordship should make the Drain of Brick, for Security of their Waters; he thinks this is expressed in the Lease, but is not positive in it; it is to be done at his Lordship's Charge. It was also proposed, that his Lordship should secure the Arrears of our Rent, which were about 8 Years and Half behind, and are since received: That, in case his Lordship made an Agreement with the Parties concerned in the rest of the Ground, which we understood was extremely embroiled, his Lordship would endeavour to get a Clause, that no Vaults should be made in the Streets; for great Inconvenience to the City was found by reason of such Vaults, whereby they got our Waters in privately. His Lordship promised, "in case he came to Agreement with those other Persons, and that they got an Act of Parliament, he would serve us what he could in that, and the City be at no Charge;" which Act of Parliament was understood, to extricate those Persons that Labyrinth they then were in: These were the Reasons which induced him this Deponent to agree to the Lease.

"A Question being asked, Whether, in the former Lease, there were no Covenants for securing the City's Pipes and Waters?

"This Deponent saith, There are some Covenants in the Lease to the Lord Clarendon, to secure the City; but they think they have better Covenants in this Lease.

To Question 3d (beforementioned):

"Saith, He remembers not, so as to speak particularly upon Oath, what Motives and Arguments were made Use of; but he believes some said, "Corporations did not die, and therefore it was of Value." Some said, "The Lease, after 70 Years, was not worth 10 or £. 20. There were great Debates in the Committee; some were for, and some against it; but much a greater Majority were for it, as he believes, he remembers not above 3 against it.

"To Question 4th (beforementioned):

"He knows of no (fn. 6) Offers; remembers none: That the Service my Lord was to do them, was only in case he agreed with the other Parties; then he would get what might be serviceable to them in the Act, free from Charge; else, no Act was expected: He owned his Hand to the Pages 129, 175, 180, 190, 192, 195, 198, 201, 202, 207, 208, 209, 212, 215, 216, 218, 222, in the Book of the Committee for City Lands."

Cuddon's Examination;

"Thomas Cuddon, to Question 1st (beforementioned):

"Saith, That the City of London formerly leased out about 27 or 28 Acres of Ground to the Lord Chancellor Hyde, which he since understands hath been in other Hands by Divisions, in order to build upon Part of it: That, about Christmas 1693, the Lord Normanby sent to the City, desiring an Addition of Years to about 4 Acres of that Ground, proposing that he would build a Mansion-house on it. Accordingly the City treated with him, and gave his Lordship an Addition of 100 Years, after the Determination of 70 Years in Being, at 40s. per Annum: That which induced the Committee to make the Lease, and to take that Rent, was the Consideration of preserving the City Waters, by his building a Mansionhouse there, and securing their Pipes. To the best of his Remembrance, there was a Covenant for building a Brick Drain, which their Officers informed them would cost a considerable Sum of Money; and if my Lord erected any Buildings where the Pipes lay, they were to be removed at his Lordship's Charge.

"My Lord was to endeavour to procure an Act of Parliament (after all Parties were agreed) for settling those Doubts and Scruples which were in the Titles of the present Proprietors, that so the Buildings begun might go on to be finished, and others to be erected, to the Improvement of the City Land, and the City to be at no Charge; the Performance of these Covenants, they presumed, would be much to the City's Advantage.

"A Question being asked him, What he meant by the Words, "The City to be at no Charge?"

"He saith, That by Charge, he understood Fees in passing the Act.

"To Question 1st (abovementioned):

"This Deponent further saith, There was £.72 Rent in Arrear, which the Committee would engage his Lordship to see paid, before they signed the Lease; which Money is since received, and he believes by his Lordship's Means.

"A Question being asked him, Whether the present Lessees did consent to this Lease?

"This Deponent saith, That he knows nothing of the Consent of the present Proprietors to any Reversionary Lease, or that the Tenants were ever sent to.

"To Question 3d (aforementioned):

"He saith, There was a great deal of Debate; but cannot remember what the Arguments were, nor by whom made Use of; the Inducements to him were, the Clauses and the Covenants in the Lease.

"To Question 4th (beforementioned):

"Saith, That he knows no other Offers than the Covenants and Conditions in the Lease.

"To the Order of Common Council (aforesaid) read to him:

"He saith, That it was an Order of Common Council, at which he doth not well remember whether he was present or not.

"To a Report of 24th January, 1694, shewed and read to him:

"He saith, That it is a Report of the whole Year's Proceedings; it was not drawn up in the Presence of the Committee, but brought in by the Comptroller: He heard it read, and made some Objections to it; but, finding the Matters of Fact to be such as the Committee had transacted, and there not being Time enough to make Alterations to his Mind in wording it, as he remembers, he signed it, amongst others; but he neither approved nor disapproved of the Paragraph relating to this Grant."

Sir Edw. Clarke, Sir Rich. Levett, and Sir Th. Abney's Examinations;

"To Question 1st:

"Sir Edward Clarke saith, There was a Grant to the Marquis of Normanby of 4 Acres of the City Land, more or less, formerly granted to the Earl of Clarendon; his Lordship is to give 40s. per Annum for 100 Years, after 70 Years in Being; he designed to lay out 20 or £. 30000 in an House, as was said; some thought the Ground not worth much after 70 Years; we thought the Improvement my Lord would make would be of great Advantage to the City, though it would be a long Time before it came. He saith, my Lord Normanby said, "he would build an Arch of Brick, to convey our Waters; and he would endeavour to get an Act to settle the Differences betwixt the Persons themselves." He saith, They never sent to the Persons concerned: The Act was not to force them to agree, but in order that there might be an Agreement, that my Lord might have Encouragement to build his House: He cannot say the City ever set a Lease over any Tenant's Head, without first sending for the Tenant: The Common Council, being moved, gave Leave to make such a Lease to my Lord: There being 70 odd Years yet to come in the Lease in Being, he did not think there was any Occasion to send to the Tenants: He saith, We do not usually renew, till some short Time before the Expiration of a Lease, unless it be by Order of the Common Council, or some great Advantage to the City: He did not imagine my Lord would build an House, without first agreeing with the Proprietors.

"To the Order of Common Council (read to him):

"He saith, The Inducements to him to make such Order relating to a Lease (to my Lord Normanby) were no more than to any other Person that should shew any Kindness to the City."

"Sir Edw'd Clarke,
Sir Rich'd Levett,
Sir Tho. Abney,

"Say, They were told, That my Lord had been serviceable to the City, in stopping the Act that would have prejudiced the Revenue of the Southwarke Water; they thought they had a Bargain sufficient from my Lord; they did not think it a Gratification; they never had any such Thoughts; he and Sir Thomas Abney believe they signed the Report.

"Sir Richard Levett saith, His Inducement was from the Report of the Committee, "that their Springs would be secured;" and that a Gentleman who came from my Lord, said, "After my Lord had agreed with the Proprietors, his Lordship would lay out £. 20 or 30,000 in building a House: He saith, They have let these Springs for £.6 or 700 per Annum, and £. 2650 Fine, or thereabouts: Their Arrears of Rent for this Ground were to be secured to them: He never read the former Lease.

"Sir Thomas Abney faith the same.

"To Question 3d (beforementioned):

"Sir Richard Levett saith, Our Inducement was, that if my Lord would build such an House, it would be a greater Advantage to the City than this Lease would be a Disadvantage.

"To Question 4th (beforementioned):

"Saith, That he knows of none.

"Sir Thomas Abney saith the same.

"Sir Richard Levet saith, He has been told, "that some Sort of Exceptions have been taken by the House of Lords to some Words in the Report."

"Sir Edw'd Clarke, having been shewed the Committee Book, owns his Hand to Page 215."

Eyre's Examination;

"Thomas Eyre, to 1st Question:

"Saith, That, as he can remember, there is a Lease of about 4 Acres of Ground made to the Lord Marquis of Normanby; he thinks the Rent is 40s. per Annum: He saith, my Lord is to secure their Pipes, to build a Drain, and to keep it in Repair.

"To Question 3d (beforementioned):

"He saith, There was a Discourse, it would be a Service to the City; he doth not remember the Arguments; but, the Pipes being incommoded by building, they were in Hopes, if my Lord built an House, they might get a Clause in an Act for securing their Pipes. The Act, he thinks, was to be about regulating the Building; he knows none of the Covenants in my Lord Clarendon's Lease.

"To the 4th Question (beforementioned):

"Saith, That he knows of no Offers.

"The Order and Report beforementioned being shewed to him:

"He saith, He believes he signed the Report: He understood my Lord had a Fancy to the Ground, for building an House: He saith, That first, he, this Deponent, was against making a Lease, which commenced at so great a Distance of Time; but, upon farther discoursing of the Matter, towards the Close of the Year, he thought it would be for the Improvement of the other Land of the City, and make it more valuable, to have such a Building; the great Charge my Lord was to be at for the Drain, and securing it, he thought, was a valuable Consideration.

"A Question being asked him, upon reading the Order of Common Council, What was meant by the Word Gratify, mentioned in that Order?

"He saith, That he knows nothing of gratifying my Lord; only his Fancy for building upon that Ground."

Aldersey's Examination;

"Robert Aldersey, to the 1st Question,

"Saith, That he was concerned in laying the City Pipes; he thought the Committee might do the City Service, in covenanting with my Lord Normanby against building on the Pipes; for he knew that the Covenants in my Lord Albemarle's Lease were evaded; for, notwithstanding those Covenants, the Pipes were built upon 200 Yards, and the Draught of the Building intended to be carried on to Tyburn Road was to be on the Pipes; by which Means, the Drains which carry the Waters to the Conduits would have been destroyed."

Man's Examination;

"Daniell Mann, being asked, Whether he was at any Time with Mr. Lane, to wait on the Lord Marquis of Normanby; and what Discourse then happened?

"He saith, He was with him; but remembers no Discourse, except about Fees; my Lord desired a Particular of his Fees in Writing; and Mr. Lane said, "he did not use to put them in Writing:" He remembers, Mr. Lane was very angry."

Russell and Whitehead's Examinations;

"Roman Russell and Joseph Whitehead being asked, What they know of the Lord Marquis of Normanby's Design to build an House on some Ground behind Clarendon House?

"Roman Russell saith, That my Lord had a Design to build; and on that Account, he desired a farther Time from the City in that Ground: He knows my Lord hath long had a Model; and he (fn. 7) have heard him say, that his Lordship would lay out a great deal of Money in an House: There was a Scruple in the City's Committee, whether my Lord really intended to build an House: He acquainted my Lord with it; who commanded him to tell them, on his Honour, "that he had a Design to build an House." My Lord spoke to Fitch, Bran, and Lane, about it; it was a Year's Time depending in the Committee."

"Jose'h Whitehead saith, He has known my Lord Normanby talk with Fitch, Brann, and another Gentleman, about building an House; and he had heard my Lord hath had Estimates from each of them; and my Lord, he thinks, hath made some Sketches of it himself."

Kirkham's;

"John Kirkham saith, He saw the Paper Roll, now shewn him, sealed up by Mr. Fouks; and it is his Master's own Seal."

Harrison's Examination;

"Edmond Harrison being asked, What he knows concerning Representations made by the Auditors for the City, in relation to the Management of City Business?

"Saith, He never had any Employment in the City but that of Auditor; and that he was Two Years chosen by the Common Hall to be One of the Auditors of the Chamberlain's and City's Accompts, for the Years 1691 and 1692. He saith, They made several Representations to the Court of Aldermen, of the many Disorders they found in the State of the City's Affairs, in Reference to all the Branches of them that came before them in Accompt: He saith, The Two Reports they made are remaining under their Hands in the Town Clerk's Office; after they have given them in, they have nothing more to do.

"Being asked, Whether he remembers any Thing in those Representations concerning the letting Leases for long Terms, or letting Leases long before the Expiration of Leases in Being?

"He saith, He must confess he is ashamed to say, that the City Affairs were in so ill a Posture as they found them: That many Lands and Houses were not to be found out or known, but only by the Names of them on the Books; the Officers not being able to inform of their Situations, Buttings, and Boundings: That they had Reason to believe several Parcels of Land and Houses had been lost, for Want of due Care: That they wanted many Leases: They did conclude those Losses and Disadvantages to have happened, as partly through the Neglect and Knavery of Officers, so through the unreasonable Terms granted for several Lands and Houses for small and inconsiderable Rents; upon which, in their First Report, they recommended to the Court of Aldermen, (fn. 7) an exact Survey; and in the Second, that for the future no such Grants might be made, which they did conceive were very mischievous and prejudicial to the City.

"He saith, He believes it to be a standing Rule in the City, that no Lease is to be made till within Three Years of the Expiration of the First Lease, though those Matters he takes to be still subject to the Common Council: And he saith, they have frequently made Leases, not observing the said Rule.

"Being asked, Whether they may not renew to the present Tenant at any Time?

"He saith, They generally bear a Respect to the Tenant in Possession; but yet he takes it to be their Rule, not to make any Lease to the Tenant, till the Lease be near expired; and he takes the Rule to be Three Years. He never was One of the Committee for the City Lands; he speaks only what he hath observed by being Auditor."

Gardiner's Examination;

"Thomas Gardiner, to 1st Question (beforementioned):

"Saith, There was a Lease granted to the Lord Marquis of Normanby, from the City of London, after a Lease that was in Being for 70 odd Years, granted to my Lord Clarendon. His Lordship desired an Addition of 100 Years to be added to that Time, for which his Lordship was to give 40s. a Year; he knows no other Consideration, than that it was his Lordship's Request.

"To Question 3d (beforementioned):

"He saith, This was a great while depending; and for most Part of Summer he was out of Town, and can give no Account of that.

"To Question 4th (beforementioned):

"He saith, He remembers nothing of it.

"Being asked, Whether he was in the Common Council, when the Motion was made, to give the Committee Power to make the Lease of the Ground behind Clarendon House?

"He saith, He believes he was.

"The Order of Common Council being read; and he being asked, What induced them to make that Order?

"He saith, He cannot well remember what the Inducements were; it is long since, and it doth not occur to his Memory.

"Being asked, Who was the Person that made the Motion?

"He saith, To the best of his Remembrance, Sir Rob't Clayton.

"Being asked, How Sir Robert Clayton made that Motion, in what Words, and to what Effect?

"He saith, To the best of his Remembrance, there was a Mention made of one Mr. Gulston, that was endeavouring to get an Act of Parliament, for laying the Pipes for the Thames Water in Southwarke, which would have been a very great Prejudice to the City: That his Lordship was instrumental to hinder the passing of that Bill; on which Consideration, the Common Council thought fit to leave it to the Committee, to grant his Lordship longer Time. This is all he remembers.

"He owns it his Hand, that is to the Page 215."

The House then ordered the Order of the Common Council beforementioned, and Reports (before also mentioned) from the Committee for City Lands, to be read,

Which are as follow; (videlicet,)

"Commun. Concil. tent. 24° Die Januarii, 1693.

"At a Common Council:

Order of the Common Council about granting a Lease to the Marq. of Normanby:

"A Motion being made, for gratifying a Person of Honour, who had been very friendly to the Interest of the City in the House of Lords, and likely to continue so, with a long Term of Years, in about Two or Three Acres of the City Ground, lying and being in Conduit Mead, behind Clarendon House:

"The Question being put, Whether this Court will empower the Committee for letting and demising the City's Land, to grant unto the said Lord an additional Term in the said Ground, at and under such Rents, Covenants, and Conditions, as the said Committee shall approve of? It was carried in the Affirmative; and referred to the said Committee accordingly.

"This Day was read, and agreed, a Paper, the Tenor whereof is as follows; (videlicet,)

"Agreed, between the Committee for the City Lands, and the Right Honourable John Lord Marquis of Normanby, concerning Part of the City's Ground in Conduit Mead, as follows; (videlicet,)

"That the Ground to be demised to the said Lord Normanby shall be that which is described within the Blue Lines of Two Plats or Plans thereof, to be annexed to the Indentures of Lease thereof, prepared by Mr. Robert Aldersey, and signed and dated by him, March 30th, 1694.

"That the Lease of the said Ground shall be for the Term of 100 Years, to commence from the End, Expiration, or other Determination, of the Lease formerly granted to Edward Earl of Clarendon, at the Yearly Rent of a Pepper Corn.

"That the Arrears of the Ground Rent of £. 8 per Annum, amounting to £. 72 at Lady Day, 1694, be paid before the Sealing the said Lease.

"That, in case the said Lord Normanby, or any under him, be minded to build over or enclose any Part of that Ground where the City's Pipes now lie; then, before any such Building or Enclosure, the said Pipes shall, at my Lord's Cost and Charges, be removed, in such Manner, and to such Place there adjoining, as shall be directed by the Committee for City Lands for the Time being; and that, at the like Costs and Charges, as well before and until the Commencement of the Term to be granted by the said Lease, as during the Term to be thereby granted, there shall be, and be continued, from the Plug or Tanpin on the Pipe, to the Brook called Aye Brook, as described on the said Plans, a sufficient Drain to convey the City Waters from the said Plug to the said Brook, without any Stop or Interruption to the Passage of the said Waters, in such Manner as shall from Time to Time be directed by the Committee for the City Lands for the Time being; and Liberty for the Servants and Workmen of the said City to view and examine the same, from Time to Time, and at all Times convenient.

"That the City's Pipes and Drains and Springs be secured, by Covenants in the said Lease proper for that Purpose.

"That, in Consideration of the said Lease, the said Lord Normanby shall therein covenant to procure an Act of Parliament for the settling the Differences between the Persons who have begun to build on, or are any Wife interested in, the City's Ground under the said Lease to the said Earl of Clarendon, so as the Buildings may proceed and be finished upon such Part of the said Ground as is to be built; and to restrain the building, or making Laystalls, on any Part of the said Ground lying North of the Pump-house, to the Great Road leading to Tyburn; and also to restrain the making of Vaults into or under any of the Public Streets, where the City Pipes are, or shall be laid, to carry their Waters into the City.

"That, in the said Lease, there shall be a Clause inserted, "That if such an Act, with such Clauses, shall not pass within Three Years from henceforth, the said Lease shall be void."

"That his Lordship expresses his Assent to these Particulars, by subscribing his Name, and giving some Monies to the Poors Box, as is usual in such Cases.

"And it is Agreed and Ordered, That the Comptroller do attend his Lordship, with One Copy hereof, signed by him, in the Name of this Committee; and with another Copy to be subscribed by my Lord, if his Lordship shall approve thereof; and that Mr. Dan'll Man do also attend his Lordship, to receive what he pleaseth to give to the Poors Box.

"Rob't Clayton.
Daniel D'Orville.
Edward Clarke.
O. Buckingham.
Augustine Ballowe.
Thomas Gardiner."

"Commun. Concil. tent. 24° Januarii, Annoque Domini 1694.

Report from the Committee of City Lands about it:

"At this Court, a Report from the Committee for letting and demising the City Lands was read; and follows in these Words:

"To the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, in Common Council assembled.

"We, whose Names are subscribed, the Committee nominated and appointed by this Honourable Court for the letting and demising the Lands and Tenements, Hereditaments and Revenues, belonging to the Mayor and Commonalty and Citizens of the City of London, do humbly certify, That, upon several Meetings, Views, Reports, and Treaties, we have proceeded, agreed, and contracted, as follows; (videlicet,)

"It being, by special Order of this Honourable Court, referred to us, in order to the gratifying a Person of Honour, who hath been very friendly to the Interest of the City in the House of Lords, and is likely to continue so, that we should grant to him an additional Term of Years in a Piece of Ground, Part of Conduit Mead, behind Clarendon House, and under such Rent, Covenants, and Conditions as we should approve of, after several Views, Admeasurements, and Reports of the said Ground, and the City's Pipes and Drains and Ground adjoining; the said Person of Honour having declared his Intention to use the said Ground only for the building a capital Mansion-house; we have granted him a Lease thereof for One Hundred Years, to commence from the Expiration of the Lease of Conduite Mead, to the late Earl of Clarendon, that is, from the 17th March, 1765, at the Yearly Rent of 40s.; with special Restraints, Covenants, and Provisos, for securing and improving the City's Pipes, Drains, and adjoining Interests, not only for the said Term, but from henceforward, till the Commencement thereof.

"Rob't Clayton.
Thomas Cuddon.
Edw'd Clarke.
Thomas Eyre.
Tho. Abney.
James Boddington.
Jos. Scriven.
W'm Gun.
O. Buckingham.
Daniel D'Orville.

"And the same being well approved on by this Court; the several Matters therein contained, now depending and undetermined, were referred to the Consideration of the Committee now to be chosen for letting and demising the City's Lands.

"Goodfellow.
Andrews.
After Debate;

This Question was put, "Whether, upon the Examination taken in relation to the Matter of the Convex Lights, while the Orphans Bill was depending in this House, or concerning a Lease of some Lands lately passed to the Lord Marquis of Normanby by the City of London, there does appear any just Cause of Censure, from this House, upon the said Lord Marquis of Normanby?"

It was Resolved in the Negative.

Protest against acquitting the Marquis of Normanby from Censure for these Matters.

"Dissentient.

"Because we humbly conceive it to be an Offence of an high and extraordinary Nature, that any Peer should presume to deliver the Opinion of this House without Doors, to Persons whose Cause has been pleaded at the Bar, so as to induce them to compound their Interest, or oblige them to unwilling Compliances; more especially in a Matter depending before us in a Bill agreed to by the House of Commons: Which we humbly conceive to have been plainly made out against the Marquis of Normanby, by the Depositions of Mr. Hobbs, Sir Thomas Millington, Mr. Nois, and Mr. Lilly.

"Mr. Hobbs having informed this House, upon Oath, "That he was absent and sick, and had resolved to come to no Agreement with Hutchinson; but that Sir Thomas Millington had some Time afterwards given him this Account, "That the Marquis of Normanby came out several Times from the House of Lords, assuring him the Bill would not pass, unless an Agreement were immediately made with the said Hutchinson: Which, with the Clamours without Doors, were the Reasons that compelled him and those others that signed, to agree."

"Sir Tho. Millington having declared upon Oath, "That he was forced and compelled to sign the aforesaid Agreement, by frequent Intimations and Affurances given by the Marquis of Normanby, That the Bill should or would not pass, unless he and his Partners did agree with Hutchison; as likewise by the Clamours without Doors, of those concerned for the passing of the Orphans Bill."

"Mr. Nois (Agent for the Orphans) likewise deposing, That he heard the Marquis of Normanby tell Sir Thomas Millington, "The Bill would be lost, unless the aforesaid Agreement was concluded;" both affirming, That no other Member of the House of Lords, to their Knowledge, gave any such Intimation or Account.

"Mr. Lilly also deposing, That all present were forced to sign a Paper (which he hoped would prove no Agreement), because they were compelled to it by the Tumults at the Doors of the House of Lords, being afraid of Violence from the Orphans Agents, and Solicitors, in case they had not signed it.

"Which irregular Proceedings of the Marquis of Normanby we conceive fully proved by Witnesses of undoubted Reputation, who acted in Pursuance of the Account they gave upon Oath; which are the more remarkable, because it appears, that Roman Russell, Servant and Agent to the said Lord, had one 32th Part made over to him, immediately before the Hearing in the House of Lords, which Share was assigned to Mr. Moore by Hutchison, to be made over, for promoting his Interest in Parliament, and was to that Purpose (as the Writing testifies) disposed of to RoRussell, which we conceive by the Proofs valuable £.2000.

"Which Share, Mr. Moore deposes, was given to Ro. Russell, and Russell confesses to have received, for no other Consideration but (having been Servant to many Lords) to solicit and apprize them of the Case; yet it appears, by his own Confession, he knew not the Merits of the Cause, nor could name any other Lord whom he had applied to, but the Marquis his Master, who brought in the Petition for Hutchison; Roman Russell having acquainted him, he had a Concern with him.

"We likewise protest against this Vote, in relation to the Second Part of it, which concerns the Lease made by the City to the Marquis of Normanby:

"Because we conceive it a Present avowedly given to the said Marquis, for gratifying him for Services done to the City in the House of Lords, and for the Expectation of like Services for the future, and by him received as such; which we are humbly of Opinion is sufficiently proved, and in such Manner as we apprehend highly to the Dishonour of this House.

"First, This appears by the Entries in the City Books, where it was agreed by the Committee of the City Lands, to demand an extraordinary Power of the Common Council, to grant a Lease, under such extraordinary Conditions as were not agreeable to their common Methods; in which Entry the only Motive and Argument that appears in the Books is expressed in these Words; (videlicet,)

"Com. Concil. tent. 24° Die Januarii, 1693.

"At a Common Council:

"A Motion being made, for gratifying a Person of Honour, who had been very friendly to the Interest of the City, in the House of Lords, and likely to continue so, with a long Term of Years, in about Two or Three Acres of the City Ground, lying and being in Conduit Mead, behind Clarendon House:

"The Question being put, Whether this Court will empower the Committee for letting and demising the City's Land, to grant unto the said Lord an additional Term in the said Ground, at and under such Rents, Covenants, and Conditions, as the said Committee shall approve of? It was carried in the Affirmative; and referred to the said Committee accordingly.

"As likewise the same is again entered in the Books, in the last Determination of the Committee for City Lands, as the only Motive to induce them to make such a Grant, in these Words; (videlicet,)

"It being, by special Order of this Honourable Court, referred to us, in order to the gratifying a Person of Honour, who hath been very friendly to the Interest of the City in the House of Lords, and is likely to continue so, &c.

"And signed by Sir Robert Clayton, and several of the Parties consenting to this Lease, who were summoned as Witnesses by the Marquis of Normanby.

"It being further made evident (as we humbly conceive), by the Oaths of Mr. Lane the City Comptroller, Mr. Morrice a Member of the House of Commons, and Mr. Ballow One of the Committee, who depose, the Arguments made Use of for this Lease, in several Meetings of the Committee, were, the Services done, and like to be done the City, by the Marquis of Normanby; particular Mention being made in their Depositions, of his Assistance in flinging out Gulston's Bill, and his helping that of the Orphans.

"And we further conceive (with great Deference to this Honourable House) that the Motives and Considerations, sworn by several of the Committee-men, who were consenting to such Grant or Lease, as Inducements to them to pass it, appear, upon Examination, to be no valuable Considerations:

"As, the building a great House of Thirty or Forty Thousand Pounds upon the Lands, the securing their Water Pipes, the obtaining several Years Arrear of Rent, the making a Brick Drain: Which alledged Considerations seem to us of no Weight; the Marquis being under no Covenant in his Lease, to build such House; the Pipes for their Water being secured for Seventy Years to come by their former Lease; the Arrears having been paid, not by the said Marquis, but by the Tenants under the First Lease, when demanded.

"And moreover, in our humble Opinion, there is little Room to doubt but that the said Lease was given and taken as a Gratification; Mr. Lane giving it in upon Oath, from the Marquis of Normanby's own Mouth, "That he looked upon the Lease, as a Present to him, from the City, for his Kindnesses and Services; and that they were Suitors to him, not he to them."

"Finally, We are the rather convinced of it, because the Depositions of Mr. Lane, Mr. Morrice, and Mr. Ballowe, are suitable to the Entries in the City Books, which most of the Evidence summoned for the Marquis of Normanby have set their Hands to; where no Mention is made of those other Matters sworn by them, as Considerations inclining them to grant such Lease.

"Induced by these Parts of the Evidence recited; (having entered the Whole upon our Book) that nothing might be concealed which may any Ways tend to the Justification of the Noble Lord concerned, and for the Reasons aforesaid; we protest against this Vote; not being able to satisfy ourselves, that this High Court of Honour and Judicature had no just Grounds to pass some Censure on the Marquis of Normanby, upon the Evidence given to this House, on the Matters of the Convex Lights and City Lease.

"Manchester.
Stamford.
Essex.
Ailesbury.
Monmouth.
Torrington.
Cholmondeley.
Dissentiente,
Weymouth."

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Veneris, (videlicet,) decimum nonum diem instantis Aprilis, hora undecima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.