House of Lords Journal Volume 16: 17 February 1701

DIE Lunæ, 17 Februarii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Lords take the Oaths.

The Lords following took the Oaths, and made and subscribed the Declaration, pursuant to the Statute:

NicholasLord Bishop of Chester.

William Lord Bishop of Oxford.

Thomas Lord Raby.

Yeoman Usher's Place, Report about.

The Earl of Rochester reported from the Lords Committees, to whom was referred the Consideration of the Claims of Sir David Mitchell and Mr. Richard Colinge, to the Office of Yeoman Usher in this House:

"That their Lordships have heard Sir David Mitchell; who claims the putting in of the Yeoman Usher, by virtue of his being Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.

That their Lordships have also heard Mr. Richard Colinge; who claims the said Office by virtue of a Patent from King Charles the Second.

That their Lordships have been attended by Sir John Stanley, with the Lord Chamberlain's Books; out of which he shewed, That, on the Twentieth of January One Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-five, Benjamin Colinge was sworn Joint Yeoman Usher with Mr. Whynyard; who was not then sworn, nor till the Fourteenth of November One Thousand Six Hundred Eighty-five.

"That he saith, it doth not appear, by any former Book in the Lord Chamberlain's Office, that the Yeoman Usher's Place, in the House of Lords, is an Office upon the Establishment of the Household; nor hath he heard of any Salary annext to the same, except that mentioned in Mr. Coling's Patent.

"That, their Lordships having seen a Patent to Mr. Colinge in this Case, on which there may be a Trial at Law, and consequently may come before this House, their Lordships have not thought fit to give any Opinion in this Matter at present."

The Lord Chamberlain acquainted the House, "That a Letter came to His Majesty's Hands, which He had ordered to be laid before the House."

The Letter was read, as follows:

Intercepted Letter to the Earl of Perth.

"For the Right Honourable the Earl of Perth, Governor to the Prince.

"These.

Friday, 18th February, 1701.

My dearest Brother,

"Since I promised to put in Writing what we had not Time to talk fully of, I am set down to it in the Morning, that my Letter may be ready for the Messenger, if any call.

"I told you all that I had heard at Versailles, and the favourable Audience I had of Madam de Mentenon; for which I beg it of you, to return my most humble Thanks to the Queen; and beg of Her to be so good as to thank Madam de Mentenon, and know from Her what can be done in that Matter: It will be a great Charity in the Queen.

"I told you, amongst other Things, the great Fleet the King intends to put out this Summer; the Orders being given, and the Money ready, the Stores full, and every (fn. 1) one concerned active in their Stations. There is no Doubt but this Fleet will be Master of the Sea for some Time, if not for all the Summer, because the Dutch dare not stir till the English be ready; and they have long Debates yet, before they can be in a Condition to act, if they have the Will; and it is a Question if they will have it at all.

"The King never had so favourable (fn. 1) Conjuncture, if He can persuade this King that His Affairs are really in the Circumstances they are in; but there is the Difficulty.

"The King and Queen have more Authority with the King and with Madam de Mentenon, than any other in the World can have; but that's not all; there should be some One acceptable to the Ministers, who should lay before them these Proofs Their Majesties cannot enter into the Detail of, and explain the Reasons, make Plans, and Memoirs, by Their Majesties Approbation, to convince them of the Necessity, and to shew the Easiness, of restoring the King, the Glory it brings to their King, and the Advantage to Religion.

"How this will be done, Their Majesties are wise enough to consider, and I think it is not a Subject fit for me to enter upon; but their Friends in general, who know not the Half of what I know in this Matter, think that it will not be well done by a Protestant Minister, lazy in his Temper, Enemy to France by his Inclination, tainted with Common-wealth Principles, and against the King's returning by any other Power than that of the People of England, upon Capitulation and Terms; who is suspected of giving Aim to the Compounders, if not worse.

That Mr. Carrell is qualified, no Man doubts; but in Society with the other, these who must be instrumental, will not trust him as he ought; so that so long as the other is within Distance of penetrating the Affairs, they will never think themselves secure.

"And yet the King has no such Game to play as by these very Persons who are thus diffident; namely, the true Church of England Party, the Catholics, and the Earl of Arran; and I shall say something as to every one of them. The King cannot but be sensible, that the true Church of England Party, and their principal Head, now the Bishop of Norwich, has been silent of a long Time; and Their Majesties may remember what Weight the Court of France laid upon their joining the King (I mean the Non-swearing Clergy) in case of a Landing.

"Therefore all Arts should be tried, without Delay, to get them to enter into Correspondence again; and every Impediment ought to be removed, I say, without Exception: And though sometimes it is of hard Digestion for Sovereigns, who ought to be obeyed without Reserve, to yield to the Humours of Subjects; yet Prudence should teach them, when they cannot, without hurting their Affairs, do what they would, to do what they can, and remember the Fable of the Dog, who lost the Substance for the Shadow.

"Assurances from the Non-swearers, the soundest and venerablest Part of the English Church, would be of great Use at this Time, to persuade France to undertake this great Affair; for, besides their own Example at a Landing, and their Preaching and Writing to the People that their Religion was in no Danger, it is most certain they know better than any others can, what the Church of England in general would do for the King's Service; and they, being to run all the Hazard, would be better believed at the Court of France than any other, as I found by Experience.

"As to the Catholics, and others associate with them, unfortunately for the King, they were thought to have too much Inclination for me, and so have been reckoned as useless to the King; but I must beg Leave to say, that Undertaking was the best Feather in His Wing, and was most justly thought so by Him, and by the Court of France too, even to that Degree, they pretended, if this and the other Article concerning the Clergy could be made appear, they would concur with the King to invade England. They consisted of Seven Regiments of Horse and Dragoons; their Arms, Trumpets, Kettle-drums, Standards, &c. were all ready, and are yet in Surety; their Men were all listed, and their Officers chosen; and they had Twenty Horses to a Troop; which Troops lying at a Distance in a Horse Country, Twenty Horses would soon have mounted the rest.

"Those who could not divine the Greatness and the Use of the Undertaking, blamed the Rashness of it; and even some Churchmen have not been disapproven for endeavouring undutifully (because contrary to the King's written Orders) to break the Design; but I desire you now, for all this, to believe that you have not such another Argument to use to the Court of France as this; and if you could make it appear, as it might have been done some Years ago, I should have very good Hopes of this Summer's Work. Nay, let the King have what other Hopes, or even Promises, you please from the Court of France, this is to be encouraged; and, if possible, to be put in the Circumstances it was in; for if ever there be a Landing in England to Purpose, it must be before they can be armed, and they cannot be armed before the Parliament come to a Resolution concerning the War; and considering the few Troops in England, suppose these Men to be no better than Militia, what a Diversion would it be !

"It is not necessary for me to say any more of this Article, till I know whether Their Majesties have as good an Opinion of this Undertaking as I have If so, I shall shew what I think to be done in it; if otherwise, I shall save the Pains.

"As to the Earl of Arran, it would be of great Use to have an Understanding with him. He will have none where . . . . . can pry; his all is at Stake, and he ought to be wary with whom he ventures to deal.

"I think it better for the King's Service, that the Court Party prevailed in the Manner they have done in the Parliament of Scotland, than that the Country Party should have got their Will. Opposition swells the Waters to a Flood; and so long as the Country Party is not discouraged, they gain more Gound in the Kingdom than they lose in Government; so that the Disaffection in the Government will increase; and one may judge of the Nation in general, which is of no other Temper than this pretended Parliament, or rather Presbyterian Rabble, ill representing the Nation. For since even in it there is such a Struggle against the Government, what would there be in a free Parliament, which the P. of O. durst never hazard to call!

"The Nation then, at least a great Part of it, being disaffected to this Government; it is of the last Consequence, that Earl Arran may know what to do, in case of an Invasion of England, or in case he and his Friends be obliged, for Self-preservation, to rise in their own Defence.

"The Army, who are and ever were well affected, are to be gained by Money; and a little goes a great Way with them.

"The disbanded Troops would be engaged, and the Officers are well inclined.

The Places of Strength would be secured, and such as can be put in Defence (without Expences) fortified.

"To do all this, at least such a Part of them as can be begun with, a small Sum will serve; and he ought to have Hopes of it, and of the Command.

"These being only Heads to be discoursed of, and much to be said of every Part, it is not to be thought that this Letter can carry a final Conclusion; for it may be, upon Discourse, I might change my Mind, or be more confirmed in, and see further.

"This makes me insist again to you upon Two Things, as appearing to me absolutely necessary to put Things upon a right Foot:

"The First is, the removing of all Impediments out of the Way, and sending all suspected Persons to Champagne or Burgundy, according to their Goust.

And the Second is of the last Use, both to Their Majesties and the Prince; which is, the establishing of such a Number, under no Qualification, to talk of their Affairs in Their Majesties Presence, with whom we can freely converse, and propose what may be for Their Majesties Service.

"As for the First, it will be for the King's Reputation, both at the Court of Rome, France, and with all His true Friends in England, for many Reasons.

"As for the Second, it is according to Scripture, In the Multitude of Counsellors there is Safety."

"Nothing is so dangerous as first to determine what one will do, and then hear Reasons against it, and imitate the deaf Adder, who "hearkens not to the Voice of the Charmer, let him Charm never so sweetly." Reasons against a Resolution taken offend; and the more Force they have, they offend the more; whilst, before the Resolution be taken, Reason has its Effect, and the Determinations are not the Effects of Humour and Faction, but of Prudence and Justice.

"If in any Thing I fail, I will swear it is Want of Understanding, and not of Will. And I beg, that Their Majesties may be persuaded, that it is not Humour and Vanity, but Their Service I have in my View; who am,

"My dearest Brother,

"Most humbly yours.

"There are no Letters from England; I expect and am promised . . . . . . .

"I forgot to tell you, that the Conjuncture ought to be improven, so long as the Court of France have the ill Opinion of the Prince of Orange's Treachery, discovered lately in their Hands."

Letter to be printed.

Upon reading, this Day, a Letter communicated to the House by His Majesty's Command, dated the Eighteenth of February One Thousand Seven Hundred and One, and directed, "For the Right Honourable the Earl of Perth, Governor to the Prince. These:"

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England do give Order, that the said Letter be forthwith printed and published.

Message from H. C. for a Conference about the Address.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Boyle and others:

To desire a Conference, upon the Subject-matter of their Lordships Message to them on Friday last.

To which the House agreed.

Answer.

The Commons being called in; the Lord Keeper (by Order of the House) told them, "That the Lords agree to a Conference; and appoint it presently, in the Painted Chamber."

Managers.

Then the Lords following were named Managers of the Conference; (videlicet,)

Trelawney versus Molesworth.

Upon reading the Petition and Appeal of Edward Trelawney Clerk and Elizabeth his Wife, for and on the Behalf of Elizabeth Trelawney their Daughter, an Infant, and of Daniel Sagittary Clerk and Anne his Wife, on the Behalf of John Sagittary and Anne Sagittary, their Son and Daughter, Infants, from a Decree made in the Court of Chancery, the Eight and Twentieth of June last, on the Behalf of the Lady Gratiana Carew, and Sir John Molesworth Knight and Baronet, and John Arscott Esquire and Frances his Wife; and praying the Reversal of the said Decree:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Lady Gratiana Carew, Sir John Molesworth, John Arscott, and Frances his Wife, may have a Copy of the said Appeal; and shall and they are hereby required to put in their Answer thereunto, in Writing, on Monday the Seventeenth Day of March next, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Report of the Conference about the Address:

The Commons being come to the Conference; the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference.

Which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Earl of Rochester reported, "That the Lords attended the Conference; and that the Commons acquainted their Lordships, that, before they had received the Lords Address, they had agreed upon a Vote to be presented to His Majesty; and therefore took this Opportunity to return the Address."

Address re-committed:

ORDERED, That the Address, upon Debate of the House, be re-committed to the Committee that drew the same.

Reported with Additions.

Then the House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords withdrew.

And, after some Time, the House was resumed.

And the Earl of Peterborow reported the former Address, with some Additions.

Which being read, and a Debate arising:

This Question was put, "Whether the Third Paragraph shall stand Part of the Address ?"

It was Resolved in the Affirmative.

The Address was read, and agreed to, as followeth; (videlicet,)

"We, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, return our most humble Thanks and Acknowledgements to Your Majesty, for Your Concern expressed for the Protestant Religion, in Your Gracious Speech; and Your Care for its future Preservation, by recommending to our Consideration a further Provision for the Succession to the Crown in the Protestant Line.

"We are highly sensible of the Weight of these Things Your Majesty is pleased further to recommend to our Consideration; and therefore humbly desire, You will be pleased to order all the Treaties that have been made, between Your Majesty and any other Prince or State, since the late War, to be laid before us, that we may be enabled to give our mature Advice, when we are informed of all those Matters necessary to direct our Judgements.

"And we humbly desire of Your Sacred Majesty, that You will enter into Alliances with all those Princes and States who are willing to unite, for the Preservation of the Balance of Europe; assuring Your Majesty, that we shall most readily concur in all such Methods, which may effectually conduce to the Honour and Safety of England, the Preservation of the Protestant Religion, and the Peace of Europe.

"And we humbly return our further Thanks to Your Majesty, for the Letter communicated to this House the Seventeenth of February Instant; and having taken it into our immediate Consideration, we humbly desire of Your Majesty to issue the necessary Orders for seizing the Horses and Arms of the Papists and other disaffected Persons, and for putting the Laws in Execution for removing them from London; and that You will be pleased to give Directions for a Search to be made after Arms, and other Provisions of War, which in that Letter are said to be in Readiness.

In the mean Time, humbly addressing Your Majesty, that Order may be given for the speedy fitting out of such a Fleet as Your Majesty in Your great Wisdom may think necessary, in this present Conjuncture, for the Defence of Your Majesty and the Kingdom."

House to attend the King with it.

ORDERED, That the Lords with White Staves attend His Majesty, to know what Time His Majesty will please to appoint, for this House to attend Him with the Address.

ORDERED, That the whole House shall attend His Majesty with the Address.

Ball versus Ridler.

Upon reading the Petition and Appeal of John Ball of London Factor, from Two several Decretal Orders in the High Court of Chancery, one of them the Nineteenth Day of April, and the other the Sixth Day of November, One Thousand Seven Hundred, in a Cause wherein Nathaniel Ridler was Plaintiff, against the Petitioner Defendant; and praying the Reversal of the said Decrees, and that Proceedings be stayed:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Nathaniel Ridler may have a Copy of the said Appeal; and shall and he is hereby required to put in his Answer thereunto, in Writing, on Monday the Tenth Day of March next, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon; and that, in the mean Time, all Proceedings in the Court below be stayed.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Martis, (videlicet,) decimum octavum diem instantis Februarii, hora undecima Auroræ, Dominis sic decernentibus.