House of Lords Journal Volume 14: 22 July 1689

DIE Lunæ, 22 die Julii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

M. de Halyfax Speaker pro Tempore.

Message from H. C. for a Conference on Oates's Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Mountagu and others:

To desire a Conference, upon the Subject-matter of the Amendments proposed to be made to the Bill for reversing Two Judgements given in the Court of King's Bench, against Titus Oates Clerk.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will give a Conference, as is desired; and appoints the same to be presently, in the Painted Chamber.

These Lords were appointed to be Reporters of this Conference:

ORDERED, That the Lord Cornwallis is added to all the Committees now in Being.

E. of Aylesbury, Leave to be absent.

The Earl of Aylesbury hath Leave to go to the Waters, for his Health.

The Commons being ready for the Conference, this House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference.

The Earl of Stamford reported the Effect of the Conference with the House of Commons; which was concerning the Amendments which their Lordships had made to the Bill for reversing the Two Judgements given against Titus Otes Clerk; to all which Amendments the Commons do disagree.

"To the First Amendment, to leave out ["the said Verdicts brought in against the said Titus Otes were corrupt, and"]; the Commons do not agree:

"Because the Points in which the Perjuries are assigned in the Informations were solemnly examined and tried at former Trials, wherein the Proceedings were regular, and when Things were fresh in Memory: And at those Trials, the Testimony of the said Titus Oates, in the Points aforesaid, was supported and verified by concurrent Evidence, to the full Satisfaction of the Courts and Juries.

"Because it appears by unquestionable Evidence, that several Thousand Pounds were bestowed and expended upon the Jurors and Witnesses, and otherwise, about the Trial for the supposed Perjuries; which Sums are much greater than could be expended in a fair and uncorrupt Prosecution.

"Because the Juries who passed upon those Trials were returned by Officers unduly chosen, after the unjust Seizure of the Liberties of the City of London, and in the Reign of a Popish King, and at such a Time when neither Counsel nor Witnesses durst appear for the said Titus Oates; when Perjury was countenanced, by tampering with and suborning Witnesses to swear falsely, by Judges not daring to take Notice how Witnesses in latter Trials had contradicted what they swore in former Trials, but suffered Mr. Cornish in particular to be attainted upon such contrary Evidence, though the said contrary Evidence had been Twice printed before by Authority, and by prevailing on divers Members of the Corporations, contrary to their Oaths, to betray and surrender up their Liberties and Privileges.

"To the Second Amendment, after ["Bench"], insert ["against the said Titus Oates were"]; the Commons do not agree:

"Because those Words are proposed by your Lordships on Supposition of the Commons agreeing to the First Amendment; but they disagreeing thereunto, there is no Use of that Amendment.

"To the Third Amendment, in the same Line, and after ["erroneous"], read ["unprecedented and so"]; and for ["illegal, and are of evil Example to future Ages"], read ["that the Practice thereof ought to be prevented for the Time to come"]; the Commons do not agree:

"Because the Judgements must be illegal, if erroneous, which your Lordships agree they are; and there can be no Question but they were cruel; and to say only the Judgements were ["erroneous, unprecedented, so that the Practice thereof ought to be prevented for the Time to come"], the Commons cannot agree; because such Precedents have been (especially in the Star-Chamber), though erroneous, cruel, and illegal.

"To the Fourth Amendment, leave out ["said Verdict be held null and void, and that the"]; and after ["Bench"], leave out ["and the Judgements given on the said Writs of Errors"]; the Commons disagree.

"1. As to what relates to the Verdicts, for the Reasons given for their Disagreement to the First Amendment.

"2. As to the latter Part of this Amendment; because, your Lordships having agreed to that Part of the Bill which declares the Judgements given in the King's Bench to be erroneous, it must follow, the Judgements given in Affirmance of those Judgements are equally erroneous, and ought in like Manner to be declared so.

"L. 37. To the Fifth Amendment, the Commons agree not; for the Reasons before given.

"To the Clause [A.] they agree not; because there is no Need thereof; the Bill itself sufficiently declares all like excessive Punishments illegal, by reversing those Judgements as such; whereas this Clause seems to weaken the Declaration of the Law made in this Bill.

"To the Clause [B.] the Commons cannot agree:

"1. Because, by the Law of the Land, where Error appears in the Record, the Reversal ought to be general, and annul the whole Record.

"2. Nothing in this Bill does hinder, but that Titus Oates may again be indicted and tried in a legal Way for the same Matter; and to disable him before he is legally convicted, is not agreeable to Justice.

"3. The Substance of his Evidence was never questioned, but agreed to by both Houses in several Parliaments; and the Commons think it unreasonable to give the World such an Argument, by which they may infer their Disbelief of the Popish Plot, as the extraordinary Course proposed in this Clause will amount to."

The Question being put, "Whether to proceed now in the Consideration of this Report from the House of Commons, concerning the Bill and Amendments for reversing the Two Judgements given against Titus Oates Clerk?"

It was Resolved in the Negative.

Report to be considered.

ORDERED, That (fn. 1) on Wednesday Morning next is appointed to take into Consideration this Report of the Conference; against which Time, all the Lords shall have Notice to attend this House.

Sir Adam Blair's Answer to his Impeachment;

This Day being appointed for Sir Adam Blair and Doctor Gray to put in their Answers to the Impeachment of the House of Commons against them; they were brought to the Bar, and kneeled until they were bid to stand up.

They delivered in their several Answers, which were read, as follow:

"The humble Answer of Sir Adam Blair, now Prisoner in The Gate-House, to the Articles of Impeachment of High-Treason, and other high Crimes and Offences, exhibited to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled against the said Sir Adam Blair and others therein named, whereof he stands impeached, by the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses in Parliament assembled, in the Name of themselves and the Commons of England.

"The said Sir Adam Blair, in the First Place, protesting his Innocency of and from all the Treasons, and Crimes, and Offences whatsoever, in the said Articles contained, and no Way acknowledging, granting, or admitting, all or any the Clauses, Articles, or Matters in the said Articles of Impeachment contained or specified (so far as the same any Way concerns him) to be true, as in and by the said Articles of Impeachment is supposed; and humbly craving, that all Benefit and Advantage may be saved to him, of excepting to the Generality, Uncertainty, and Deficiency of the said Charge; as likewise the Benefit of having and relying upon your Lordships great Judgement, whether the Crimes and Offences so imposed upon him by the said Impeachment do by the certain known Laws of this Realm (so renowned for Right and Justice) amount to the high Crime of Treason:

"Which being prayed; and, as he hopeth, being granted; for Answer thereunto he saith, That he is not, nor ever was, guilty of the Treasons, Crimes, and Offences, or any or either of them, of which he stands charged by the said Impeachment; and, for Trial thereof, putteth himself upon, and humbly submitteth to, the Judgement of your Lordships; whose Justice he doth and always shall rely upon, and therein acquiesce.

"Ad. Blair."

"The humble Answer of Robert Gray, Doctor in Physic, now Prisoner in The Gate-house, to the Articles of Impeachment of High Treason, and other high Crimes and Offences, exhibited to the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, against the said Robert Gray and others therein named, whereof he stands impeached, by the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses in Parliament assembled, in the Name of themselves and the Commons of Engl'd.

and Dr. Gray's.

"The said Robert Gray, in the First Place, protesting his Innocency of and from all the Treasons and other Crimes and Offences whatsoever in the said Articles contained, and no Way acknowledging, granting, or admitting, all or any the Clauses, Articles, or Matters in the said Articles of Impeachment contained or specified (so far as the same any Way concerns him) to be true, as in and by the same Articles of Impeachment is supposed; and humbly craving that all Benefit and Advantage may be saved to him, of excepting to the Generality, Uncertainty, and Deficiency of the said Charge; as likewise the Benefit of having and relying upon your Lordships great Judgement, whether the Crimes and Offences so imposed upon him by the said Impeachment do by the certain known Laws of this Realm (so renowned for Right and Justice) amount to the high Crime of Treason:

"Which being prayed; and, as he hopeth, being granted; for Answer thereunto he saith, That he is not, nor ever was, guilty of the Treasons, Crimes, and Offences, or of any or either of them, of which he stands charged by the said Impeachment; and, for his Trial thereof, putteth himself upon, and humbly submitteth to, the Judgement of your Lordships, whose Justice he doth and always shall rely upon, and therein acquiesce.

"Robert Gray."

Blair and Grey, remanded.

The Speaker asked Sir Adam Blair and Doctor Gray, "If they had any Thing further to say at this Time?" They said, "No."

Then the House remanded them back to the Prison from whence they were brought.

Copies of the Answers sent to H. C.

ORDERED, That the Copies of the Answers of Sir Adam Blair and Doctor Gray be communicated to the House of Commons.

And accordingly a Message was presently sent to the House of Commons, by Doctor Edisbury and Mr. Metwin, to communicate to them Copies of the aforesaid Answers.

Sydenham versus Terry.

Upon hearing Counsel this Day at the Bar, upon the Petition of Sir John Sydenham; shewing, "That he being made a joint Trustee with Edward Strode and Four others, since dead, by the Right Honourable John Lord Paw'ett, late of Hinton, in the County of Somerset, deceased, in Trust for the Payment of his Lordship's Debts, and afterwards in Trust for the now John Lord Pawlett the Plaintiff, complaining of a Decree made in the Court of Chancery, the 26th Day of June, 1689;" as also upon the Plea and Answer of John Terry Gentleman, Respondent, put in thereunto:

After due Consideration had of what was offered by Counsel on either Side thereupon, it is ORDERED and Adjudged, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Petition of Sir John Sydenham, be, and is hereby, dismissed this House; and that the Decree from which he appealed be, and is hereby, affirmed.

Adjourn.

Marq. de Halyfax, Orator Procerum pro Tempore, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Martis, videlicet, 23^um diem instantis Julii, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.