House of Commons Journal Volume 11: 27 January 1697

Mercurii, 27 die Ianuarii;

8° Gulielmi Tertii.

Prayers.

A Member discharged from Custody.

ORDERED, That Sir Isaac Rebow, in Custody of the Serjeant at Arms, for absenting himself from the Service of the House, be discharged out of Custody, paying his Fees.

African Company.

Resolved, That this House will, upon this Day Sevennight, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the Bill for settling and regulating the Trade to Africa; and nothing to intervene.

Stockley's Estate.

An ingrossed Bill to enable the Sale of Lands late of Jeoffry Stockley, in the County of Chester, deceased, for Payment of his Debts; and for making Provision for Mary Stockly, his Daughter, an Insant; was read the Third time.

Resolved, That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to enable the Sale of Lands late of Jeffry Stockly, in the County of Chester, deceased, for Payment of his Debts; and for making Provision for Mary his Daughter.

Ordered, That Sir Robert Cotton do carry the Bill to the Lords, and desire their Concurrence thereunto.

Hanham's Estate.

An ingrossed Bill, from the Lords, intituled, An Act for vesting the Manors of Holme, alias East-Holme, and Swannage, in the County of Dorset, Part of the Estate of Sir John Hanham Baronet, in Trustees, to be sold, for discharging a Mortgage thereupon, and upon the Residue of the said Sir John Hanham's Estate; and for Payment of his other Debts; was read a Second time.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Sir Robert Cotton, Mr. Pocklington, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Heveningham, Serjeant Bond, Serjeant Coward, Lord Ashley, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Hammond, Mr. Ashly, Sir John Phillips, Mr. Fuller, Mr. White, Mr. Bagnold, Sir Robert Davers, Mr. Aislaby, Sir Robert Burdet, Sir John Smith, Sir Cha. Hotham, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Colt, Mr. Whitaker, Mr. Mounson, Sir Fran. Masham, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Foley, Mr. Mawdit, Sir Cha. Carteret, Mr. Bertie, Mr. Carey, Mr. Mountague, Mr. Travers, Mr. Bennet, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Arnold; and all that serve for the Counties of Dorset and Somerset: And they are to meet this Afternoon at Five a Clock in the Speaker's Chamber.

Russia Company.

Mr. Moor reported from the Committee, to whom the Petition of the Merchants of London, relating to the Russia Company was referred, That they had examined the Matter of the said Petition; and had heard the Petitioners, and the Company, and their Counsel; and come to several Resolutions; which they had directed him to report to the House; and which he read in his Place; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and are as follow; viz.

That the Committee summoned the Russia Company to appear, and produce their Charter.

They appeared, and produced their Charter, under the Great Seal of England, bearing Date the 26 February, in the 1st and 2d Year of Philip and Mary: Reciting, That the Marquis of Winchester, and others therein named, had, at their own Adventure, fitted out Ships, for making new Discoveries, where other Christian Princes had never traded; therefore incorporated the said Marquis, and others therein named, by the Name of Merchants Adventurers, for Discovery of Lands, Territories, and Isles, yet unknown: With Power to choose and elect Governors, Consuls, and Assistants, to have perpetual Succession; to purchase Lands, of 66 l. 13s. 4d. per Ann: That they may sue, and be sued, as a Corporation: That the Governors, Consuls, and Assistants, may make By-Laws, for the better Government of the Company; and also to admit into the Fellowship, to be free of the same, such and so many Persons as to them shall be thought meet; and that every such Person shall be free of the same: That they may impose Mulcts, and punish Offenders; that they may appoint Officers, to be called Serjeants, to levy Mulcts and Penalties; and to punish Offenders: and to imprison such Offenders, and seize their Goods: The Company may issue Precepts to Mayors, &c. to arrest and seize within their Limits; and that no Mayor, &c. shall be prosecuted for putting such Precepts in Execution: They may sail into all Places, not already known, to make Discoveries, and subdue, conquer, and settle, in such Places. The Edward Bonadventure being lately entertained, and admitted to trade by the Emperor of Russia; therefore grants to the said Fellowship, all the main Lands, Isles, Ports, Havens, Creeks, and Rivers, of the said Emperor, and of any other Emperor, before the said late Discoveries unknown, lying N. N. E. and N. W. from the City of London, shall not be frequented by any but the Fellowship, or without their Licence, upon Pain of Forfeiture of Ship and Goods; a Moiety to the King, a Moiety to the Fellowship; with sundry other Powers.

The Company also produced an Act of Parliament, made in the 8th Year of Queen Elizabeth; reciting the said Charter, and the said Discoveries; and that several Merchants, not of the Fellowship, had, by the Estimation of those new-discovered Commodities, traded in them, in Contempt of the Charter: Therefore the Act confirms the said Charter; and establishes the said Fellowship, by the Name of the Fellowship of English Merchants, for Discovery of new Trades; adding to the Extent of their Charter, Armenia, Media, Hyrcania, and the Caspian Sea: And therein is a Proviso, That when the said Fellowship shall refrain trading to Archangell for Three Years, then any others may trade to the Narve.

The Committee heard, as well the Petitioners, as the Russia Company, by their Counsel.

The Counsel for the Petitioners insisted, That this Charter was granted to gratify some Persons who had, of their own Accord, sent out a Vessel, to discover new Countries: That, 'tis of that Extent, it includes all the World unknown at that time, lying Northward, NorthEastward, and North-Westward, from London: That the Company have made no Improvement of the Discoveries; having never found out, or traded, to any Place but Russia, which was discovered before, and mentioned in the Charter: That they are not a joint Stock: And the Petitioners are willing to come in, as they do in the Eastland Company; which was opened by Act of Parliament, in the 25° Car. IIdi; where they pay but 40s; and this Company requires very great Fines:

That they are willing to submit to their By-Laws, and contribute to their Charge; but the Company have made an Order, That none shall be admitted into the Company, but who have served their Apprenticeship to One of the Company: The Dutch, by this means, have got the Trade, and import great Quantities of Naval Stores, and send our Cloths thither, which we might send.

And they produced several Witnesses, to prove these Matters:

Mr. Keyser said, He was at Archangell in the Year 1686, where the Company had but Five or Six Vessels: and the Dutch had Thirty: They bring great Quantities of Hemp from thence.

Mr. Dawson said, He knows an English Merchant had an Offer from Archangell of Masts, from 18 to 24 Palms; but some Dutch Merchants have now a Contract with the Muscovites, for all the Masts at Archangell.

Mr. Samuel Heathcott: That Foreigners. Dutch and Hamburghers, do carry great Quantities of our Woollen Manufacture to Russia; and also of our Plantation-Commodities, particularly Indico: That the Muscovites have no Ships of their own: Believes the opening the Trade would sell twice the Quantity of Woollen Manufacture, were more sent: That there are not above a Dozen or Fourteen Traders of the Company: That the Company makes them pay One per Cent. for the Commodities they import from Narve, for Licence to trade thither; but will give no Licence to trade to Archangell.

Mr. Gould: That he has paid 50 or 60 l. per Ann. to the Company, for Licence to trade to the Narve; but never could obtain a Licence to trade to Archangell: They have refused to admit him free of the Company, although his Father was free of it: Believes, if the Trade were open, it would expend Three times as much of our Woollen Manufactures, as well as in Commodities from the Plantations; for they send great Quantities of Tobacco to the Narve; which is prohibited in Muscovy: That they can import from Archangell, great Masts and Plank; and from the Narve small Masts, Hemp, Flax, Plants, and Spars:

That the Imposition for Licences to the Narve pays the whole Charge of the Company.

Mr. Jos. Martin: That the Trade at the Narve has much increased since Persons were permitted to trade thither by Licence: That the Swedish Woods, where we are now furnished with large Masts, do decay; and large Masts may be had at Archangell; from whence he could, and would, import them.

Mr. Phelp said, That since they were permitted to trade to the Narve, there have arrived from 2 Ships to 20 in a Year.

The Counsel for the Russia Company insisted, That they had traded under this Charter, and Act of Parliament, almost 150 Years: That they have supported the Trade at very great Expence; and do drive the Trade very fully, by exporting more Commodities than can be vended abroad, and importing more than they can sell here.

Mr. Sands said, The Company sends out more Goods than they can sell abroad: That they are at great Expences abroad to support the Trade: The last Year it cost 200 l. to treat the Emperor: That they sent the Ship called the Abraham, about Four Years since, for Masts; but could get none, some Dutch Merchants having got a Contract with the Muscovites for all the Masts:

That there is an Order of the Company, to admit none into the Freedom of the Company, but those who have served their Time to some of the Members of the Company; but yet, for 60 l. Fine, they do admit Persons into the Freedom of the Company.

Mr. Wolf said, That, upon the Murder of King Charles the First, the Emperor would not suffer an Englishman to come up to Mosco: That it has been very expensive to the Company to settle a Correspondence there:

That they do carry Woollen Goods, and Indico, and trust for One or Two Years; yet cannot vend what they carry out: The Company have now 20,000 l. in Russia Goods on their Hands, which they cannot sell:

That they send only damaged Goods from Hamburgh; and the Company trade in Taylors Shreds, and in Rags: That they import Plank for the King; but some Dutch Merchants have contracted with the Emperor for all the Masts: That he endeavoured to get the Farm; but was out-bribed by the Dutch: Says, That he did at one time ingross all the Pot-ashes.

Mr. Thorold said, He has traded thither for many Years; and that they drive that Trade fully.

Captain Davison said, There are great Quantities of Goods left in Russia unsold: That Masts are as dear at Archangell as at London; by reason the Dutch have ingrossed them, and carry great Quantities of Masts from thence.

Mr. Styles said, The Dutch contract with the Emperor of Russia for all the Masts; so that, when we bring Masts they are so dear to us, that by that means we cannot sell them here.

Mr. Scott said, That the Cargo of our Fleet every Year, both Outwards and Homewards, was of greater Value than the Dutch.

Captain Martin said, That he had been twice at Archangell, in the Month of September, which is the chief Market; and has not observed any great Trade, but much Goods left unsold.

Whereupon, and upon Consideration of what had been offered on both Sides, the Committee came to the following Resolutions;

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That it will be advantageous to the Trade of this Kingdom, That all Merchants be admitted into the Russia Company, upon reasonable Terms.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the said Terms be the same upon which Merchants are now admitted into the Hamburgh and Eastland Companies.

The said Resolutions, being severally read a Second time, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolutions: And that Mr. Moor, Sir William St. Quintin, and Mr. Thompson, do prepare, and bring in, the Bill.

Aldborough Writ.

The Order for the adjourned Debate, upon the Motion made for a Warrant for a new Writ, for the electing a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Aldborough, in the County of York, in the room of Sir Michael Wentworth Baronet, deceased, being read;

A Motion was made, and the Question was put, That the said Debate be adjourned till To-morrow Morning:

And it passed in the Negative.

The Debate was resumed;

And a Motion being made, and the Question being put, That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to make out a new Writ, for the electing a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Aldborough, in the County of York, in the room of Sir Michael Wentworth, deceased;

The House divided.

The Noes go forth.

So it passed in the Negative.

Resolved, That, during the Session of Parliament, no Warrant for a new Writ do issue, for the electing a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the said Borough of Aldborough, in the room of Sir Michael Wentworth Baronet, deceased.

Prisons and pretended privileged Places.

A Motion being made, and the Question being put, That the Order of the Day, for the Report from the Committee appointed to consider how the Abuses of Prisons, and pretended privileged Places, might be regulated, be read;

The House divided.

The Noes go forth.

So it was resolved in the Affirmative.

Then the Report was read; and is as followeth; viz.

That the Marshal of the King's-Bench, and Mr. Tilly, being in Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, were, by Order, brought before the Committee:

Prisons and pretended privileged Places.

And the Marshal being asked, why he made light of Mr. Onslowe's saying, He would complain to the Parliament, because one Butler, who ought to be his Prisoner, was not in Custody? he answered, That Butler was Briggs' Prisoner, and never turned over; but was 25 Miles off; and Mr. Onslow would have him fetched in that Night, or threatened to complain; upon which the Marshal said, Sir, you may use your Pleasure, or to that Effect, as he believes: And that, if he has offended therein, he did it in Passion; and begged Pardon.

Mr. Tilly desiring further time to answer the said Report;

The Committee proceeded to take further Informations.

Mr. Mason: That he was concerned, as a Solicitor, for Mr. Tilly, in both Houses, about passing the Bill to enable Bromhall, an Infant, to sell the Fleet Prison; and that the Informant received between 30 and 40 l. for his Care and Pains therein: But knows nothing, directly or indirectly, of giving any Money, or other Gratuity, to any Member of Parliament, or otherwise, for passing that Bill; nor did Mr. Tilly ever give any Money, or Gratuity, to any Member, to obstruct the Bill for preventing Escapes, that the Informant knows of, or believes: but Tilly did oppose the passing of that Bill, as it was his Interest so to do; and the Informant was then, as he now is, concerned for Mr. Tilly, as his Solicitor: That one Richardson petitioned the House of Lords against Passing of Bromhall's Bill; and Mr. Tilly gave him a Bond of 500l. to withdraw his Petition; and thereupon Tilly got the Bill to pass there: But Tilly preferred a Bill in Chancery, and set the Bond aside; because Richardson petitioned in others Names, without their Authority.

Mr. Fanshaw: That he was acquainted with Mr. Tilly long before the Passing of Bromhall's Bill; and spoke to several Members of both Houses therein: But knows not, that any Money was given to promote the passing of that Bill: And that he was named a Trustee, at the Instance of Mr. Tilly; but knows not who are the rest; nor does he know the Infant, or his Family.

Mr. Tilly said, He believes there was no great Proceedings before the Committee, touching the Bill of Escapes; but never gave any Money, or other Gratuity, to any Person, except the common Fees, and discretionary Money to Solicitors: And denies he ever gave any Entertainment to any Member of the House of Commons, upon the passing Bromhall's Bill, or to hinder the Bill of Escapes.

Mrs. Hancock confirmed what she said in the former Report; and that Tilly said it several times at her Lodgings, at the Golden Key in Fleet Street, and at her House in Red-lyon-street: And that Mr. Gilbert also heard him.

Mr. Gilbert: That Mr. Tilly has often said, He did not fear any thing in the House of Commons, as long as he had Money; for that they would take Money, to his Knowledge: And has often heard Tilly talk to that Purpose: And knows there was a great Intimacy between Mr. Tilly and Mrs. Hancock.

Mr. Tilly, in Answer to Mrs. Hancock and Mr. Gilbert's Information, said, 'Tis highly reasonable to imagine, That no Man in his Senses would ever have used such Expressions as they lay to his Charge; and, more especially, when Mrs. Hancock, of her own shewing, says, She was disobliged, about Two Years ago, concerning a Debt due from Guy to Gilbert, when the Parliament was sitting; who would then as surely have punished the Informant as now; and then it would have looked with less Malice; yet did not complain: That Gilbert says, the Discourse with him was as he and the Informant travelled to Cambridge, which is about Four Years ago; so that he and Mrs. Hancock much differ in point of Time: And, taking the Reason of the Thing, he hopes their Evidence will not be credited; Mrs. Hancock being a Woman of an ill Reputation, and Gilbert her Gallant: And denied the whole Story in general: And said, He never was at her Lodgings in Fleet-street; but has several times dined at her House in Red-lyon-street; where the used to cully young Gentlemen: But, upon recollecting his Memory, said, He believes he was once with her at her Lodgings in Fleet-street.

Durston, a Parson, said, He is a Prisoner in the Fleet; and that, about Two Years since, he met Mrs. Hancock thereabouts, who desired the Doctor to inquire, if Francis Guy was in the Fleet; and he did inquire, and was told, He was not; of which he told Mrs. Hancock; who thanked him for his Trouble, but believed it a damned Lye: And she went into the Room where Mr. Tilly was, and demanded of him a Debt, owing by Guy; but Tilly said, He would not pay it; bidding her be gone, for an impudent Jilt: Upon which, she went away in a great Heat, using scurrilous Language; and saying, She would bring him before the House of Commons, and would not leave him worth a Pair of Shoes.

Mrs. Hancock owned, what the Doctor said was Truth; but believes, It is the First he ever told in his Life.

Hobson and Maddox affirmed to Duncomb's Face what they said in the former Report, touching his carrying 2 or 300 l. to a Committee.

And Hobson said, Duncomb was then, and now is, Tillye's Servant; and gave him 350 l. for a Tipstaff's Place: Which Tilley owned.

Duncomb denied it positively; and said, He is no Servant of Mr. Tillye's; but agreed with him, and paid him 350 l. for his Place; but the Articles are between Mr. Church and the Informant.

Thomas Jepson said, That he being lately informed One of the Tipstaffs accused the other of carrying Money to a Committee of the last Parliament; and asking Duncomb about it; he said, That Maddox complained of his having distributed 300 l. To which the Informant answered, it may be so: And Duncomb replied, I am going into the Country a shooting.

Mr. Ruckley: That, on Wednesday the 30th of December last, being at the Fleet with Mr. Jepson, Mr. Church, the Warden, told the Informant, That the Marshal and Deputy-Marshal of the King's-Bench were taken into Custody; and that Tilly was gone up to the Committee, with an aching Heart; and, Duncomb coming into the Room where they were talking, the Informant asked Duncomb, If there was anything in the Report of his distributing Money to a Committee? And Duncomb answered, He would take his Gun, and go into the Country.

Charles Herbert Esquire, a Justice of Peace: That, on Sunday after Christmas-day, he happened to be at the Cross-Keys Tavern, near St. Clement's Church, where Duncomb and others were sitting by the Kitchen Fire, and talking about Duncomb's carrying Money to a Committee: Whereupon, the Informant asked him, if he would not give an Account of that Matter to this Committee: And he said, No, he was not such a Fool: And the Informant telling him, He would then be laid by the Heels; Duncomb answered, If he was, he would live well, or otherwise somebody else should live ill; or to that effect.

Duncomb denied this Matter; and desired, That one Hatton and Brickland, then in his Company, might be examined, if they heard any such Discourse:

Who, being summoned; Hatton said, He was in Duncomb's Company at the time aforesaid; and telling him If he was guilty of carrying Money to a Committee, he ought to be punished for it; and a Gentleman, whom he supposes to be Mr. Herbert, saying, He had best tell the Truth; Duncomb said, He knew nothing of the Matter; and that, before he would betray his Master, he would lie by it; but it would be worse for some People if he was confined.

Brickland said, He heard something of the Discourse, but fell asleep before it was over.

Francis Gery: That Tilly's Custom is, to draw Affidavits, and then call Duncomb, and ask him, If he could swear to it? Who would answer, Yes, and as much more.

As to the repeating Clock, mentioned in the said Report:

Hobson believes, It was made by one Quare, a Quaker.

Yarrett said, That, about Two Years ago, he was a Waiter to the Fleet; and, by Mr. Tillye's Order, he carried a repeating Clock from the Fleet to Mr. Holland's House, and delivered it to them just as they were taking Coach; and they carried it away; but whither, he knows not.

John Holland agreed, That a Waiter of the Fleet brought a Clock, as he and Tilly were going into a Coach; but cannot remember the Waiter's Name, though he knows them all: That Mr. Tilly set the Informant down about York Buildings; and said, He was going further with the Clock about private Business; but did not say whither he was going, or what he was to do with the Clock; nor did the Informant ever hear what became of it: This was about a Year and Half since, as he remembers; but thinks it was during the Sitting of the Parliament.

Quare said, He did not know Mr. Tilly, and never sold any such Clock, or ever had any Dealings with any Person belonging to the Fleet, as he remembers; nor does any such Matter appear by his Books.

Mr. Fran. Gery: That, in May 1695, Mr. Tilly, Mr. Church, Mr. Harrison, and Mr. Francis Guy, to encourage the Informant to have the Fleet, told him, There were 2,000 Prisoners, who gave Securities, and paid Chamber-rent, which would bring in twice the Money the Informant was to pay for his Rent, being 1,500 l. per Ann. and 1,000 l. Fine; and upon these Encouragements he hired the Fleet; but, when they turned over the Gaol to the Informant, there were but 68 on the Master's Side, and 28 on the Common Side, turned over to him; and asking the Reason, Why so few were turned over? Mr. Church told him, That Mr. Tilly reserved the rest for himself: And Tilley accordingly, by Holland, gathered the Money from the Prisoners, and sent for them in, to defraud the Informant; who told Tilly, That he had an ill Character of Holland, as that he cut the Earl of Essex's Throat, and broke open a House in Lime-street; and therefore he was not fit to be a Receiver: Whereupon Tilly said, He would be Holland's Security; but yet Tilly neglected to be so, and continued Holland his Receiver; who paid the Money to Tilly, and Gery could get but little of it:

That he met Mr. Grindall, Clerk of the Warrants, who had a Paper in his Hand, and said, He was going to gather Money of the Prisoners, in order to stop a Bill that was passing, last Parliament, against the Interest of the Fleet.

Mr. Grindall said, He never collected any Money in order to hinder any Bill in Parliament; but did collect of the Prisoners about 12 l. in order to pass a late Bill for Relief of poor Prisoners; and, particularly, received Two Guineas of Mr. Rossington, a Prisoner in Execution, for that Purpose.

Mr. Francis Guy: That Gery agreed to pay Tilly 1,500 l. per Ann. Rent, to be Warden; and entered into Deeds for that Purpose; but the Informant knows not the Contents thereof: And says, He has no Office or Employment in the Fleet; but has solicited for Mr. Tilly in his ordinary Affairs; and is a servant to my Lord Mountague.

Mr. Braddon said, That, of late, 'tis the Practice of the Warden and Marshal, not to enter the SecurityBonds in a Book, but to keep them privately.

Mr. Church, the Warden: That he pays 1,500 l. per Ann. Rent to Mr. Tilly, for the Office of the Fleet; who has the Inheritance in him; and the Rent was to be paid monthly, in proportion; but Mr. Tilly has all along received it for his own Security, and was to account to the Informant for a Moiety of the Profits, after the Rent paid, in Consideration of a Fine of 500 l. paid on sealing Articles, which he believes Holland has; but the Informant has no Counter-part of them.

John Holland produced a Copy of the Articles made between Church and Tilly: And believes, There was other private Articles between them; but knows not where they are.

Mr. Recorder of London said, That he lately bound Mr. Church over, to answer an Information of Perjury, for swearing a Man a Prisoner, in order to his Discharge, pursuant to a late Act of Parliament for Relief of poor Prisoners, when he was not actually in Prison.

Prisons and pretended privileged Places.

Mr. John Reynolds said, That on the 26th Day of December last, he was in Company with Mr. Holker, Mr. Horne, and Mr. Blower Deputy-Marshal of the King's Bench; where it was agreed, That Blower should have 100 Guineas to surrender the Body of James Fade, who had made his Escape, into the Mint, from a Serjeant of Wood-street Compter, for above 9,000 l. Actions charged against him there: And, about Two Hours after such Agreement, Blower brought Fade, and surrendered him up to his Creditors, and received 110 l. for his Reward; and entered into Bond of 500 l. Penalty, that if Fade should turn himself over to the Fleet or King's Bench Prisons, he should be kept a close Prisoner: And the Informant said, He knew that Fade had then enough to pay his Debts.

Mr. John Taylor said, That Mr. Fade afterwards removed himself by Habeas Corpus from the Compter to the Fleet; upon which the Informant went to Mr. Tilly, and acquainted him, That such a Prisoner was like to come under his Care, who had before made his Escape from the Officer, and threatened to make another for Holland; Whereupon, Mr. Tilly wrote to Mr. Church, not to let Fade go abroad without giving good Security: And Mr. Church said, He would take care of him, but had not yet got him in his Custody: And the Informant has since been several times at the Fleet, to inquire for him; and the Officers say, He is not there; and it's reported, That Fade is now again in the Mint.

Mr. Church said, That Mr. Tilly told him, He had given Fade Leave to go abroad with a Waiter, since Tilly was in Custody; saying, He never had a Peny of Fade's Money.

That he has been admitted Warden for about a Year and Half; but never took upon him the sole Power of acting till the 4th Instant; and Mr. Tilly received the Profits of the Fleet Prison, which One Year with another, may amount to about 2,200 l. per Annum; but the last Year, he thinks, it did not amount to above 1,800 l. And believes, There may be about 300 Prisoners out at large; and that 200 l. per Ann. may be made for Liberty; and he never received Money but as he had Occasion for it; and then Mr. Tilly would let him have 5 l.; but never received above at a time.

Mr. Holland said, That he did collect the Profits of the Fleet Prison, and did account for the same to Mr. Church; but does not remember, That he ever paid any considerable Sum to Mr. Church; but has, by his Order, paid to Mr. Tilly sometimes 100 l. a Month, and another Month perhaps not 20 l.

Mr. Row said, That, about Two Years ago, he was concerned with one Mr. Barkstead, who was a Prisoner in the King's Bench, in Execution for above 10,000 l., who desired the Informant to make haste with some Writings he had to settle; for that Barkstead thought he should agree with the Marshal for Liberty to transport himself to Pensilvania: but, that the Marshal demanding 500 l. which he thinking too great a Sum, removed himself to the Fleet, and agreed with Mr. Tilly, as Barkstead said it was, in Rowe's Presence, for 50 l. and Tilly offered to go to the Buoy in the Nore, and see Barkstead on Ship-board, before he received the Money; and Barkstead is now in Pensilvania; and the 50 l. was paid accordingly by one Mr. Goden; but the Informant does not know Mr. Tilly.

Mr. Tilly said, That he never received any Money whatsoever on Barkstead's Account; but believes, Mr. Fox was his Friend, and contracted with him: And that Mr. Hobson superseded all his Actions; and Sir Thomas Estcourt, at whose Suit only he was in Execution, did discharge him.

Thomas Blampin, then Porter of the Fleet, said, That Mr. Fox let Barkstead out, without Tillye's Knowledge.

Hobson believes, He did supersede many of Barkstead's Actions; and that it was Mr. Fox that let him go.

The Committee, being informed, that one Philemon Coddan, of Bristoll, Gentleman, who was a Prisoner in the King's Bench, at his Majesty's Suit, had his Liberty; and that he had given Security to Mr. Briggs the then Marshal, for his true Imprisonment; which Security was in Mr. Farrington's Custody; ordered the Security to be brought before the Committee: And, accordingly,

Prisons and pretended privileged Places.

Mr. Watts delivered a Bond, with Sureties, for Coddan's true Imprisonment; and a Warrant of Attorney, to confess a Judgement for 2,000 l. in case an Action of Escape should be brought against the Marshal.

Mr. Watts: That Farrington and Briggs took Bonds, for Chamber-Rent, sometimes in the Informant's Name; and sometimes in young Farrington's Name: And that he has sued Hundreds of Bonds for Farrington and Briggs.

Robert Markham: That he receives Out-Rents for Mr. Briggs, and has so done ever since 1692, and pays them to Mr. Farrington, by Mr. Briggs' Order; and that, in 1693, he received 276 l. 16s.; in 1694, 828 l. 2s.; in 1695, 922 l. 12s.; and, for Six Months of this Year, but 168 l. 4s. as appears by his Books: These OutRents are paid by Prisoners at large.

Mr. Francis Gery said, That there being a Warrant granted for apprehending White, mentioned in the former Report, for Clipping and Coining; and a Report, That there was another Warrant out against Tilly; Tilly, during that Report, lay at Holland's House, in Coventgarden, and at Somerset-house: And Mr. Mason, his Solicitor, said, He believed that Tilly would ruin himself by keeping such Company as White.

Mr. Hobson: That, several times, he has heard Mr. Tilly, when he has had Occasion to change a Guinea, call to White to change it; but bid him not give him any of his own making: And when Tilly has been to receive Money, he would say, Call White, for he knew Money very well, and could make it: And Mr. Tilly told the Informant, He had a Kindness for him; and advised him not to keep White company, for he would certainly be hanged; but it lay in his Power to save him: And believes, Mr. Grindall has heard Tilly say so: And says, he has spoke of this several times; and that Tilly would have had it under the Informant's Hand, That he never heard him say any such thing.

Mr. Recorder: That he was at White's Tryal at the Old-Baily; and knew him before, having had several Informations against him for Clipping and Coining; whereof it appeared he was very guilty: The Evidence against him were Mr. Stroud, and Daniel Ware a Smith: That Mr. Stroud gave Evidence, That he met White, on Ludgate Hill, who put several false Guineas into Stroud's Hand, which he produced at the Tryal: And White said, He had been very intimate with Stroud; who had given White Notice, That a Deed, wherein some great Persons were concerned, had been obtained irregularly, of which Stroud could give an Account; and White, having discovered that Matter, was, for that Reason, prosecuted:

That he attended the Lords Justices, and acquainted them, That he conceived White could make great Discovery of Clippers and Coiners; and might do good Service, if his former Crimes could be forgotten: And they ordered him to tell White, That Favour was intended him, if he would confess; but the Informant could not get any thing out of him, though he was then reprieved.

Mr. Holland: That White was a Prisoner in the Fleet, and supposed to be a Clipper and Coiner; but never heard that he used that Trade in the Fleet: That there being a Report, That a Warrant was out against Mr. Tilly, for Clipping and Coining, about the time when there was a Warrant granted against White, Mr. Tilly did keep from the Fleet, for fear of the Warrant, as Holland believes, and lay at the Informant's House; but many People came to him there daily, about Business concerning the Fleet; and sometimes Mr. Tilly would go over the Water to Bowls.

Mr. Tilly said to this, That it is true, he lay at Holland's House; but did not abscond; and all Sorts of People came daily to him there: And knew not, nor believes, there was any such Warrant out against him.

Mrs. Hancock being asked what Discourse passed betwixt her and Holland concerning Tilly? She said, He represented Tilly as black as the Devil; and that he would furnish her with Evidence to do his Business.

Doctor Newton, Warden of the Mint: That he was told by Mr. Evans, That White could make a great Discovery of Clippers and Coiners: Whereupon, the Informant went to Newgate, to take White's Examination; but he was obstinate then; saying, He was convicted by the Malice of Witnesses; but afterwards he gave an Account of several; viz. Chapman, Hunter, Russell, Pritchard, Charnock, Jones, Ware, Emery, Squire, Maud, Wynn, Mrs. Hunt, and Douglass; and also several others, that were Changers of Money; that Hunter, Russell, and Chapman were at work in the Country, with several Dyes, which Hunter stole out of the Tower; being a Servant there: And that White said, He would trepan them, if he could but go into the Country; but that was not permitted: That he and Stroud wrought together, and coined Copper Guineas, in the Fleet; and Stroud put them off:

That the Informant did give a Certificate to the Lord Mountague, setting forth several Discoveries made by White: But did not therein say, That he does, or does not, merit a Pardon.

To the whole Matter, in general, Mr. Tilly answered;

That all the Witnesses against him are prejudiced Persons, and are in Confederacy to prove a Forfeiture, in order to get the Office of the Fleet: That Hobson was to be Clerk of the Papers, if the Contrivance took Effect; being turned out of that Employment by Tilly; and what he says as to the repeating Clock, it is only Hearsay; and his carrying a Clock in the Coach is no sufficient Evidence of his giving it to any Member of Parliament: Nor does he remember he ever had any such Clock:

That Holland is also a prejudiced Person, and would tell anything, if he could, to Tilly's Prejudice; he being also turned out of his Employment at the Fleet, as a Receiver:

That he might suspect White to be a Clipper and Coiner, as many others did; but never supposed he practised it in the Fleet; nor was he any ways, directly or indirectly, privy to it: But Hobson was as great with White as any body; and therefore Tilly advised him to have a care of him:

That it's a long time since these Matters were transacted; and might insist upon the Act of Indemnity; but will not, knowing his own Innocency.

To prove the Confederacy;

Mr. Curtis: That, about Six Weeks ago, he met Colonel Layton, who said, He heard the Informant was treating with Tilly, about taking a Lease of the Fleet; and the Informant saying, He was, and that he was to pay 1,000 l. Fine, and 1,500 l. per Annum Rent; the Colonel said, He had a grant from the King, and a better Title to the Fleet than Tilly, and would make him an easier Bargain; and proposed, That the Informant should advance 1,000 l. and have Half the Profits of the Fleet, without paying any Rent; but must immediately pay down 50 l. in order to prosecute the Matter against Tilly, in Parliament; and tendered Articles; but knows not what they were; and believes Mr. Brunskill drew them: And that Mr. Brunskill and Mrs. Hancock were present at the Proposal, and encouraged the Informant to pay down the 50 l.

Mr. Brunskill said, He did draw some Heads for Articles, between Colonel Layton and Mr. Curtis; and Mr. Curtis was to pay down 50 l. to prosecute the Dispute between the Colonel and Tilly, touching a Forfeiture of the Fleet; and the rest of the said 1,000 l. was to be put into the Hands of some eminent Goldsmith, to be paid to the Colonel when Curtis should be put into the Possession of the Fleet, as Warden: But nothing more was done therein; the Colonel declaring, He would have nothing to do with Mr. Curtis.

Mr. Robinson; That, about Six Weeks ago, he was sent for to the Golden-lyon Tavern, at Charing-Cross, where was Mr. Leonard, Mr. Herbert, Mr. Low, and one Mr. Read, and some other Persons; and there they produced Articles between Colonel Layton and Mr. Leonard, whereby Mr. Leonard, was to have Half the Profit of the Office of the Fleet, except Clerk of the Papers Place; and was to carry on a Complaint, which was coming into the House of Commons, against Tilly; and there would be great Occasion for Money to prosecute it, which Mr. Leonard was to raise: Whereupon, the Informant asking, What Reason they had to think of carrying their Designs there? they answered, That they did not doubt of it, for that they had a very good tongue-padding Lady, naming Madam Gilbert, alias Madam Hancock, alias Sir Anthony Love, who would cut him down; and that if they missed of their Business in the House of Commons, yet White's Business would do Tilly's Work: And the Informant read the Articles; which were sealed and executed.

Mr. Isham said, He was in Company with Mr. Robinson, at the time aforesaid, when the said Articles were produced by Leonard; who was to have Half the Profits of the Fleet Prison, except the Clerk of the Papers Place: And there he heard something of the Discourse mentioned by Mr. Robinson, That Mrs. Hancock would be a Witness against Tilly: And it was then proposed to the Informant, That he should have a Place in the Fleet, if he would raise 100 l.; saying, That Tilly's Servants, who knew his Affairs, would do his Business: But the Informant rejected their Proposals.

Mr. Tilly said, That Hobson was to have the Clerk of the Papers Place.

Francis Duncomb, being brought before the Committee since in Custody, said, That he has heard Mr. Tilley several times say, It had cost him a great deal of Money at the House of Commons, to hinder the Bill to prevent Escapes from passing: But the Informant never carried Money any farther than to Mr. Guye's Chambers, in the Temple; where, about Two Years since, he carried about 200l. to pay Mr. Tilly for his Place of a Tipstaff; and there Mr. Tilly said, He wanted Money to execute a Matter before a Committee: but the Informant knows not what he did with the Money.

Mr. Tilly said, Duncomb is a Person not to be believed: That now he says, He never carried Money farther than Guye's Chamber; though he told Maddox and Hobson, That he carried it to the Parliament-House: And produced other Evidence against his Credit; viz.

Mr. Traherne: That Duncomb was a Buckinghamshire Parson's Son, and put an Apprentice to a Vintner in London; but, in Two Years time, ran away from his Master, and came into the Country; and there bought Sheep and Cattle in other Mens Names; and was afterwards arrested for it.

Mr. Hart: That Duncomb was at a Kinsman's of the Informant's, in Bucks, who was of Duncomb's Name; and there Duncomb rode away with his Namesake's Horse; and afterwards said, He had sold him, but did not receive the Money, and, if he would lend him another Horse, he would go and get the Money; and accordingly he had another Horse; but never returned again to give his Namesake an Account of either of his Horses.

Then the Committee took into Consideration the Petition of John Tayler, and other the Creditors of James Fade Merchant, which was referred to the Consideration of the Committee.

Mr. Tayler said, That Fade, since Mr. Tilly was in Custody, by Habeas Corpus, turned himself over to the Fleet Prison, being charged with Actions for above 9,600 l.; a Copy of which Actions he gave to Mr. Tilly and Mr. Church; telling them, It cost Fade's Creditors 100 Guineas, to get him out of the Mint; and desiring them to take care of him; who promised to take all the Care they could: Yet, nevertheless, they never put him into the Prison; but went to a Tavern the same Night, and let him go from thence, without ever a Keeper, or giving Security: And is informed Fade is already gone to Holland.

Mr. Carpenter said to the same Purpose: And that Mr. Tilly sent a Letter by him to Mr. Church, to secure Fade, till further Order; but never sent Fade to Mr. Church, but let him go as aforesaid.

To this Matter Mr. Tilly answered;

Prisons and pretended privileged Places.

That he was not in Custody of the Serjeant when Fade removed himself to the Fleet; and has his Liberty; who being a Prisoner only on Mesne Process, as the Law now stands, he takes it to be no great Fault to let him go abroad; but hopes to recover him, being in the Mint, as soon as he can have his Liberty; but cannot, being under Consinement, use the Means which otherwise he should do: And believes he might say to Mr. Tayler, That his petitioning the House in this Matter might be a Prejudice, and make it the more difficult to take Fade: And that he doubts not but to satisfy the Creditors as to the Recovery of his Prisoner.

The Committee, being informed, That one Robert Markham had spoken indecent Words of the House of Commons, examined into that Matter.

John Myot, a Messenger, said, He had endeavoured to summon Markham to attend the Committee, and was informed, That he was out of Town; but one Robert Cooper said, He was not out of Town, but had procured himself to be arrested on a sham Action, and was then in a Spunging-house; because he would, if he could, avoid coming before the Committee.

William Spencer, Turnkey of the King's-Bench: That, he, said Markham, going by the King's-Bench Prison, the Informant called to him, saying, That he heard Markham had been before a Committee of the House of Commons; to which Markham answered, Yes; but they were all a Company of hot-headed Fools, and could do nothing with him; and that he came off with flying Colours.

Edward Whittingham: That, on the 9th instant, he asked Markham, What News? Who answered, He had been before a Committee, who were a Parcel of hotheaded Fools; and that he came off with flying Colours.

As to further Abuses, concerning the King's-Bench;

Mr. Stevens said, That Mr. Blower, Deputy-Marshal, has several Persons, who go about with Straw in their Shoes, that, for 5s. will swear a Man was buried in St. George's Church-yard, though he was buried in Wales:

That he and Mr. Curtis were drinking together at a Tavern, and Ten King's Bench Waiters came and carried Curtis away to the King's-Bench Prison; where Blower took 50 l. out of his Pocket, saying, If he would not give him 50 Guineas more, or give him a Judgement, he should go into the Prison-house: Whereupon, the Informant and Curtis gave him a Judgement, and then Curtis was released: And knows not that Curtis was then a Prisoner; but might be so, for some small Matter, in Farrington's time: And believes, Blower dares not prosecute the Judgement, during the Inquiry about the Abuses of Prisons; but that he will do it soon after:

That Blower being in Berkshire, where one Wells was arrested at the Suit of one Ford, Blower pretended, That he was a Tipstaff, and that Wells was turned over to the King's-Bench; and so brought him to Town; and carried him to a Chamber, either in the Temple, or Lincoln'sInn; and Blower went into another Room, and presently returned, and told Wells, That his Business was done; for which Blower took 7 l. 10s.: That, afterwards, other Misfortunes befalling Wells, he thought to discharge himself by the Act for Relief of poor Prisoners; but could not find himself entered, as a Prisoner, in the King's-Bench Books; and, complaining to Blower of it, he said, That for 7 l. 10s. more he would enter Wells, as a Prisoner; and then he might have the Benefit of the Act:

That, about the time of last Southwark Fair, he was in Company with Blower, who told him, That Mr. Bowyer had opposed him in Discharging of Prisoners; but that now he had brought him over; for that he had presented him with a Side of Venison; and went and dined with him, and made the Dog drunk; and then they were as great as the Devil and the Earl of Kent.

Mr. Curtis said, That he heard Blower say much to that Purpose: And that the said Mr. Blower was Chairman of the Bench at the Quarter Sessions for Surrey: And the Informant believes, There were Ten Persons in Company when Blower said those Words.

A person committed for scandalous Words.

Resolved, That Robert Markham, for speaking false and scandalous Words of a Committee of this House, be taken into the Custody of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House.

Ordered, That the said Report be delivered to Mr. Attorney and Mr. Solicitor-General: And that they do take care to prosecute the Persons concerned, for the Crimes therein mentioned.

Supply.

Resolved, That this House will, upon Tuesday Morning next, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Supply to be granted to his Majesty, for making good the Deficiency of Parliamentary Funds; and of that Part of his Majesty's Speech which relates to the Credit of the Nation.

Securing Debts.

Ordered, That the Bill for the better Securing of Debts, and Establishing of Credit, be read a Second time upon Thursday Sevennight.

Committees.

Ordered, That all Committees be revived.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine a Clock.