House of Lords Journal Volume 9: 8 July 1647

DIE Jovis, 8 die Julii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Ash.

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

Doctor Heath, and Mr. Hakewill return with this Answer from the House

That they agree to these Particulars:

To (fn. 1) all the rest, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Sir W. Compton, a Pass.

Ordered, That Sir Wm. Compton, with his Servants, shall have a Pass, to come out of France.

Ly. Fanshaw, D°

Ordered, That a Pass shall be granted to Sir Thomas Fanshaw's Lady, to come out of France, into England, with her Servants and Necessaries.

Wise and Deerham.

Ordered, That the Errors between Wise and Deereham, and the Errors between Cooke and Harvey, shall be argued, by Counsel on both Sides, the 16th July.

Stevens and Sanky.

Ordered, That the Errors between Stevens and Sanky shall be argued, by Counsel on both Sides, the 15 of July.

Petition from the City.

Petition, presented by Alderman Cullum and others, from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of London, was read: (Here enter it.)

1. To desire to have Twenty Thousand Pounds out of Weavers Hall, Part of the Two Hundred Thousand Pounds.

2. To continue the Ordinance of the 11th June last for a longer Time.

Ordered, That this Ordinance be continued for One Month longer; and the Concurrence of the House of Commons to be desired herein.

Ordered, That the First Desire be recommended to the House of Commons.

Answer to it.

The Persons that presented the Petition were called in.

And the Speaker, by Direction of the House, gave them this Answer:

"That their Lordships do well esteem the good Affections and great Services of the City of London; that they will take this their Petition into speedy Consideration, and will be ready to do any Thing that shall be fit for their Satisfaction and Security."

Message from the H. C. about sending the Scots Army in Ireland Home;

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Colonel Jepson, &c.

To acquaint their Lordships, that long since, at a Conference, they offered some Reasons (fn. 2) for sending the Scotts Army in Ireland Home, in regard of the vast Charge, which this Kingdom is not able to sustain.

and for the Committee for Irish Affairs to distribute the 25,000 l.

2. An Order to refer it to the Committee at Derby House for the Irish Affairs, to distribute the Five and Twenty Thousand Pounds for Ireland.

3. To desire that any Five of the Committee of Lords and Commons for the Affairs of Ireland (fn. 3) at Derby House shall have Power to meet and act.

Members of this Committee to attend it constantly.

Ordered, That the Lords of that Committee do meet constantly, about the Irish Affairs; and the House of Commons to be desired to enjoin their Members of that Committee to meet likewise.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take their Message into Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Letter from the Commissioners with the Army; and from the Scots Commissioners.

A Letter from the Earl of Nottingham and the Lord Wharton, was read. (Here enter it.)

A Letter from the Scotts Commissioners, was read. (Here enter it.)

Sir T. Fairfax's to be sent to them.

Ordered, That Sir Thomas Fairefax' Letter be sent inclosed to the Scotts Commissioners, in a Letter.

E. of Northton and Gloucester Clothiers.

The Counsel of the Clothiers Plaintiffs, and the Counsel of the Earl of North'ton Defendant, were heard.

And the House, upon Debate, Ordered, That it is the Opinion of this House, That the Earl of Northton, as he is charged in the Petition, is not rightly charged before this House according to the ordinary Form; and that the said Petition be dismissed this House.

Letter from the Commissioners with the Army.

Another Letter from the Earl of Nottingham and the Lord Wharton, with some Papers inclosed, were read; and Ordered to be the First Business To-morrow Morning. (Here enter them.)

Letter to the Commissioners with the King, about excepted Persons being admitted to Him.

Ordered, That a Letter be written to the Commissioners with the King, to know why Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hamond, &c. are permitted to be about the King, contrary (fn. 4) to the Direction of the Houses; and where the Obstruction is.

A Letter was read, and Agreed to; and Ordered to be sent to the House of Commons.

Willis and Coytmore.

Ordered, That the Cause between Ric'd Willis and Rob't Coytmore shall be heard on Tuesday Morning next.

Message to the H. C. with the Letter to the Commissioners with the King; and for their Members to attend the Irish Committee.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Doctor Heath and Mr. Hakewill:

1. To desire that they would appoint the Members of their House, that are of the Committee for the Irish Affairs at Derby House, to meet constantly.

2. To deliver to them the Letter to be sent to the Commissioners with the King, and desire their Concurrence therein.

Petition from the City, for Money for their Militia; and to continue the Ordinance empowering them to raise Horse, &c.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords assembled in the High Court of Parliament.

"The humble Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, of the City of London, in Common Council assembled;

"Sheweth,

"That whereas your Petitioners, upon their humble Desires, 3 June last, to have Twenty Thousand Pounds granted them, for the ordering the great Affairs of the Militia, this Honourable House was pleased to grant them Twelve Thousand Pounds; before which Time, there was about Eight Thousand Pounds Arrears, owing to the Guards of the Parliament, Tower, and City, besides the great Charges of the Out Guards which yet continue, and the compleating the Regiment of Horse, Trained Bands, and Auxiliaries within the Line; by which Means, the said Twelve Thousand Pounds is expended, and yet much to be done to compleat the said Forces to be serviceable, for the Safety of the Parliament and City, with the Debts yet unsatisfied; and the Maintenance of such Guards and frequent Duties as the tumultuous Times do require will occasion the Expence of a great Sum of Money.

"And whereas Power was granted to the Committee of the Militia of this City, to raise Horse, and to make Searches, by an Ordinance of Parliament dated 11 Junii last, to continue for One Month, which is hereunto annexed, and within few Days expired; and for that the present Time doth constrain your Petitioners to strengthen the Guards far more than formerly;

"May it therefore please this Honourable House, to grant to your Petitioners Twenty Thousand Pounds, out of the Two Hundred Thousand Pounds at Weavers Hall; and to renew the said Ordinance for so long Time as to your Wisdoms shall seem meet.

"And your Petitioners shall pray, &c.

"Michell."

Letter from the Commissioners with the Army, that there is a small Delay in the Treaty.

"For the especial Affairs of Parliament.

"For the Right Honourable Edward Earl of Manchester, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore. These.

"Haste, Haste, Post Haste.

"May it please your Lordship,

"We have this Day been in continual Expectation to hear from the Commissioners of the Army what it is they have to offer unto us of Weight, intimated by their Paper sent unto you last Night. They have been in Consultation amongst themselves all this Day; and now they inform us, by Sir Hardresse Waller, "That they find the Matter now under their Consideration of that Difficulty, that they hold it necessary to consult the General and Council of War before they present it to be debated on; and do intend to come to us again this Night: But, fearing it may be very late, we thought fit at present to give you this Account; and rest

Reading, 6 Julii, 1647, 7 at Night.

"Your Lordship's
Humble and faithful Servants,
C. Nottingham. P. Wharton."

Letter from the Scots Commissioners, about their Messenger being stopped by some of Sir T. Fairfax's Army.

"For the Right Honnorable the Speaker of the House of Peeres pro Tempore.

"Right Honorable,

"Wee received your Lordship's civill Letter, in Answere to ours of the 28th of June, concerninge the intercepting of our Letters by some of Sir Thomas Fairefaxe's Army; and are very sensible of your Lordship's Care therein expressed, to finde out the Persons, and to prevent the like Abuse for the future: Only, in Obedience to the Directions of the Committee of Estates of the Kingdome of Scotland, wee have this to add to what wee formerly represented in that Particuler, That the Messenger who was intercepted hath informed their Lordships, that those who did apprehend him did shew him a Warrant, under Sir Thomas Fairefaxe's Hand, to stopp and apprehend all Persons carrying Letters or Intelligence. Wee thanke your Lordship for the Assurance you have given us, that you will not be wanting in any Thing that may tend to the preserving of a good Correspondence betweene the two Kingdomes, wherein your Lordship shall alwayes have the cheerfull Concurrence of

Worcester house, the 6th of July, 1647.

"Your Lordship'
Most humble Servaunts,
Lauderdaill.
Charles Erskine.
Heu Kennedy.
Ro. Berclay."

Letter from the Commissioners with the Army, about the Delay of the Treaty, and with the following Papers concerning it.

"For the Right Honourable Edward Earl of Manchester, Speaker of the House of Peers. These.

"May it please your Lordship,

"This Morning Alderman Gibbs, Alderman Viner, and others (sent from the Common Council of the City of London to reside in the Army), informed us of some Things which they desired us to represent unto the Parliament; the Substance of which Information, together with our Answer thereunto, we send you here inclosed. We do find that the Proceedings in the Treaty on the Army's Part are very slow, which caused us to give a Paper this Morning to their Commissioners, tending to quicken them therein; unto which we have even now received their Answer, which, together with a Copy of our Paper to them, we herewith send you. We rest

Reading, 8th July, 1647, at 2 in the Morning.

"Your Lordship's
Humble Servants,

"C. Nottingham. P. Wharton."

Papers between the City Committee with the Army, and the Commissioners, concerning the Resort of Reformado Officers, &c. to London; and the Levies of Men there.

"Reading, 7 Julii, 1647.

"1. The Substance of what was delivered (by Word of Mouth) unto the Commissioners of the Army, by Alderman Gibbs, Alderman Viner, and others, sent from the Common Council of the City of London to reside in the Army, as followeth; (videlicet,)

"That they observed the Proceedings in the Treaty which we were upon to be very slow; and they perceived the great Obstruction therein was, that the Army had not obtained Security for the preventing of a new War; and particularly that Two Things were prest upon them by the Officers of the Army in this Business, the One, that the same Concourse of Officers, Reformadoes, and Soldiers, (if not increased) did still continue, in the Cities of London and Westm'r: To which all the Answer they could give was, "They had Thrice solicited the Parliament (in Three Weeks) for their Removal, before whom it still was, and in a Sphere above them;" and therefore desired us to make Representation thereof to the Parliament. The Second Particular was, the Listing of Men by the Committee of the Militia of the City of London; which last, they conceived, was for the Safety of the City, in relation to their Danger by that Concourse of Soldiers before expressed."

"The Substance of the Answer returned thereunto by the Commissioners of the Army by Word of Mouth, as followeth; (videlicet,)

"That there hath been no Delay on our Part; but that, since the Beginning of the Treaty, we have hastened it all that lay in our Power, and have carefully observed the Times and Places of Meeting; that, upon our pressing the Commissioners of the Army to a more speedy Dispatch, they have alledged, "That so much of their Time hath been taken up about the Charge, and other intervening Occasions, they could not give better Attendance, nor make a more speedy Progress; that we shall make Use of this Occasion to quicken their Proceedings, and shall give an Account to the Houses of what hath passed herein.

"2. That, finding the Expectation of the Parliament and Kingdom to be very great upon the speedy Progress and happy Issue of this Treaty, in Consideration whereof we have made it our Care constantly to attend the appointed Times of Meeting, and to press all Dispatch therein, and cannot but take Notice that the Proceedings of your Part have been and are very slow, and that little or nothing hath been done in the Treaty since our Entrance thereupon; and therefore, in Discharge of our Duty and the Trust reposed in us, we do very earnestly desire, that the Treaty may be effectually proceeded in with all Expedition, and the Times appointed for Meeting be punctually kept; there being nothing that shall be wanting in us, according to the Power given us, to further a Work of so great Importance, and which may perfect a right Understanding betwixt the Parliament and the Army.

Reading, 7th July, 1647.

"Signed,

"By Appointment of the Commissioners residing with the Army,

"Geo. Pyke."

Paper from the Commissioners appointed by Sir T. Fairfax, &c. on those Subjects; and concerning the Exclusion of some Members of the H. C.

"3. By the last Paper delivered unto us from your Lordships, &c. at Reading, the 7th of July, we perceive you find that the Expectation of the Parliament and Kingdom is great upon the speedy Progress and happy Issue of this Treaty. We answer, That we do really apprehend the same Things with you; neither can we but witness that you have constantly attended the appointed Times of Meeting and press Dispatch therein: Nevertheless, we cannot but be very sensible, that you seem to reflect upon us further than there is just Cause, in your taking Notice that the Proceedings should be slow on our Part, as if we should not seem to desire and labour the quick and speedy Settlement of the Affairs of the Kingdom, in a safe and well-grounded Peace, as cordially as any Persons whatsoever.

"We shall therefore desire you to remember with what Forwardness we have in the First Place presented to you those Things which we did in our Hearts conceive necessary in Order to a Treaty, and without which (fn. 5) granted we could not with Safety to the Kingdom and Satisfaction to ourselves proceed in Treaty; and further pressed you to present them to the Parliament with Speed, that a quick Dispatch might be had therein, as being, in our Thoughts, the chiefest and surest Way to prevent the engaging this Kingdom in a Second War; when, contrary to our Expectation, we have found little effectually done in relation to our Desires in those Things most concerning the Safety and Peace of the Kingdom: To the End, therefore, we may acquit ourselves from being guilty of the Delay you mention, and that it may appear to all Men where the Stick is of not proceeding in the Treaty to a Settlement of the Peace of the Kingdom, so much thirsted after by us all, we thought fit to remind unto you these Three following Proposals:

"1. That there is nothing done with Effect, notwithstanding the Votes of the House, in the dispersing of the Reformado Officers; who still continue in and about London, ready to head Forces, to the apparent Hazard of a new War.

"2. That, notwithstanding the Votes of the House for the speedy sending into Ireland, or disbanding, those Forces which left the Army, and their special Order to the Committee at Darby House to take speedy Care therein; yet they are still continued in Bodies in and about London, and, as we hear, are daily listing more Forces, pretending the Service of Ireland.

"3. That, notwithstanding the Votes of the House of the 10th of June, and those since of the 5th of July, for the purging of the House, yet divers Persons comprized in those Votes continue still to fit there.

"So long as we remain unsatisfied in the Two First of these Particulars, we cannot be secured from those Doubts we have expressed of the Danger of a new War; especially if it be considered, that the End of inviting so many Reformado Officers to London was, to lay a Foundation of a new War, and was principally carried on by the Design of some of those Members of the House of Commons we have impeached; and likewise that divers of the Officers and Soldiers which left the Army were procured by Promises of Pay and other Encouragements, which we likewise designed by the same Persons aforementioned, if possibly they might thereby have broken this Army.

"And for the last, what comfortable Effect may we expect of a Treaty, so long as the Parliament (the Supreme Judicatory of the Kingdom) is constituted of Men, whereof some are of Interests contrary to the common Good thereof, from whom we can expect nothing but banding, and designing to obstruct and frustrate, all Proceedings contrary to their Interest, though never so essential to the happy Settlement of the Kingdom? And if a seasonable Remedy be not given herein, we despair of any Good to the Kingdom by Way of Treaty.

"By the Appointment of the Commissioners for the Army.

Reading, July 7th, 1647.

"Signed,
William Clarke, Secr.

"Vera Copia, exam'r
per Geo. Pyke."

E. of Cleveland's Leave continued.

"Resolved, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Earl of Cleveland be continued upon the former Bail, for Three Months longer."

Order for Six Months Pay for Dover Garrison.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Committee for Sequestrations in the County of Kent do forthwith, out of the Sequestration-money in their Hands, or such as shall arise from the Sequestrations in the said County, pay Six Months Arrears to Officers and Soldiers of the Garrison of Dover Castle, Moats, Bulwarks, and Archcliffe Fort: And it is further Ordered, That John Bois Esquire, Lieutenant of Dover Castle, be appointed to receive the said Six Months Pay, and to distribute it to the Uses abovementioned; and that a Receipt thereof under his Hand shall be a sufficient Discharge for the Committee of Sequestration aforesaid, and to their several Officers."

Ordinance for Mr. Bruen to be Baron of the Exchequer of Chester.

"Whereas the Speakers of both Houses, being appointed to exercise the Place of Chamberlain of the County Palatine of Chester, have, at the Desire of the Knights of that County and divers Gentlemen of the same, nominated and appointed Jonathan Bruen Esquire Chief Clerk or Baron of the Exchequer there: The Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament do ratify and allow of the said Nomination; and ordain, That the said Jonathan Bruen be, and hold the said Place of Baron, with all just Fees to the said Place belonging."

Bellieure, the French Ambassador, a Pass to the King.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That Monsieur Bellieure, Extraordinary Ambassador from the French King, shall be permitted, with his Retinue, Coach and Horses, Bag and Baggage, to pass, from the City of London, to His Majesty, and back to London; and likewise that all civil and fair Respects be given unto him."