House of Lords Journal Volume 8: 5 January 1646

DIE Lunæ, 5 die Januarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Vynes.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Mr. Serle's Ordinance.

The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee hath considered of the Ordinance concerning Mr. Serle; and they think it fit to pass, with some Alterations:" Which being read, this House Agreed thereunto, and Ordered to be sent to the House of Commons, for their Concurrence.

Ordinance for paying Mr. Pym's Debts.

The Earl of Kent reported, "That the Committee hath considered of the Ordinance for paying the Debts of Mr. Pym; and they think it fit to pass, with some Alterations and Additions:" Which being read, the said Ordinance was Agreed (fn. 1) to, with the Alterations and Additions.

Message from the H. C. for a Conference about the Propositions.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, &c.

To desire a Conference, touching the Propositions for a safe and well-grounded Peace, at such Time as their Lordships shall please to appoint.

Ordered, To give a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will give a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Message to them, with Mr. Pym's and Mr. Serle's Ordinances;

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

1. To desire their Concurrence in the Alterations and Provisions to the Ordinance concerning paying Mr. Pym's Debts.

2. To desire Concurrence in the Alterations in Mr. Serle's Ordinance.

about the Devon Committees;

3. To desire Expedition in the Addition of Names to the Committee of Devonshire formerly sent down.

and the Ordinance concerning Covent Garden Church.

4. To desire, at this next Conference, this House may communicate (fn. 2) to them some Alterations in the Ordinance concerning The Covent Garden Church.

Letter from the Committee sent to the Army, with Papers between them and the Scots.

The Speaker acquainted this House with a Letter received from the Earl of Rutland and the Lord Willoughby, dated at Nottingham, Jan. 2, 1645; which was read. (Here enter it.)

Also divers Papers which passed between them and the Scotch. (Here enter them.)

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer:

That they agree to the Alterations in the Ordinance concerning Mr. Pym's Debts: (Here enter it.) And that the Conference may be concerning the Ordinance touching The Covent Garden: To all the rest, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

L. Say & Seal's Claim.

Ordered, That the Hearing of the Counsel concerning the Lord Viscount Say & Seale's Petition is deferred till Thursday next come Sevennight.

E. of Suffolk versus the Executors of Sir R. Hitcham.

Upon hearing the Counsel of the Earl of Suff. † Plaintiff, and the Counsel of the Executors of Sir Rob't Hitcham, concerning the Demurrer of the Defendants to the Petition of the said Earl of Suff. It is Ordered, That this House will take the same into Consideration on Wednesday next.

Message from the H. C. with Ordinances, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Greene, &c.

To desire Concurrence in these Ordinances:

1. An Ordinance concerning the Commissioners of the Navy.

2. An Ordinance to make Commissioners of the Navy Justices of the Peace.

3. An Ordinance concerning the Commissioners of the Customs to sell Goods in Warehouses.

4. Instructions for Reprizals.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take these Particulars into Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Paper from the Scots Commissioners, about the Answer to the King's Letters.

The Earl of Essex reported, "That the Members of the Committee of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms have communicated the Answer of both Houses to the King's Two Letters; and they have returned a Paper."

Which was read. (Here enter it.)

Ordered, That this Business be taken into Consideration To-morrow Morning.

Conference about the Propositions.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

And the Report of the Conference to be To-morrow.

Message from the H. C. with Ordinances.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Lile, &c.

To desire Concurrence in divers Ordinances:

1. For Colonel Birch to have Martial Law at Hereford.

2. For Colonel Morgan to have Martial Law at Gloucester.

3. Concerning the Garrison of Shrewsbury.

4. An Ordinance concerning Martial Law.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House [ (fn. 4) will take] this Message into Consideration, and will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Letter from the Committee with the Army, about agreeing with the Scots General to pay him an Allowance for his Forces, in Lieu of Free Quarter.

"For the Right Honourable the Lord Gray of Warke, Speaker of the House of Peers.

"My Lords,

"The next Night after we came to Grantham, the Carriages with the Cloaths and Money came to us, with a Convoy of Three Hundred Scottish Horse and Dragooners. We have received what was appointed for us; and the same Night gave Orders for the Cloaths and Fifteen Thousand Pounds in Money to go to Nottingham the next Day; and sent to the Committee there, to provide Waggoners to carry them to the Scottish Quarters; and writ to Lieutenant General David Lesley accordingly: The Money and Cloaths were received, as by the Acquittance returned to Goulds. Hall will appear. We have used our best Endeavours towards the reducing of Newarke and Belvoior, and find very ready Compliance by the Answers we have received to our Letters from the several Committees, and do not doubt but that their Actions will be suitable. The Countries adjacent are very forward in this Service, and the Officers and Soldiers vigilant and full of Courage. We desired to meet Lieutenant General David Lesly at Nott'gham; we naming the Place, left the Time to him: But afterwards receiving the Petition herewith sent from the County of Nott'gham, we wrote unto him on Tuesday in the Afternoon, to meet us on Thursday; and received from him a Letter (as you will perceive) without Date; which not coming till Tuesday Seven at Night, we imagined it Tuesday in the next Week, till we heard about Midnight from the Governor at Nottingham, that he had stayed there most of that Day for us. Lieutenant General David Lesly met us Yesternight at this Town; and his Letter expressing no Committee of that Kingdom to be with their Army, we desired to know what Authority he had to join with us, which, with the Results of our Conference, is herewith sent unto you.

"The Country alledgeth the Number of their Soldiers to be under their List given to us. We desired to take Musters of the Scottish Army, according to our Instructions; and shewed him the Ordinance for our disposing Six Thousand Pounds to them after Musters taken by us. He returned this Answer, "He could not consent to it, till he received Authority from his Superiors." We desired to know whom he meant. He said, "From the Committee of both Kingdoms at Lond'n, or any other that could give him Leave;" and for which he agreed to write to the Commissioners of Scotl. now at Lond'n. Being for the present debarred from taking Musters, we proceeded to do this distressed County the best Service we could; and thereon delivered our Offer of Ten Thousand Pounds Monthly to them, which we pressed him to accept; and amongst other Arguments, for that by the Treaty there should be Twenty-one Thousand Men for Thirty Thousand Pounds Monthly; and Ten Thousand Pounds a Month was more than proportionable to their Forces, if they were betwixt Six and Seven Thousand. He told us, "The Number of the Horse increased the Charge." We answered, "By the Treaty, there were to be Eighteen Thousand Foot, and but Two Thousand Horse, and One Thousand Dragoons." Our Papers are figured in the Order as we received them; and upon our last, the Lieutenant General desired to know, if we intended to take off the Restriction in our Letter, which was in these Words till we meet", or whether we did leave him to provide for himself. After Consultation with the Committee of Nottingham, they agreed with him for Two Thousand Five Hundred Pounds for this County for a Week, which ends on Wednesday next. We beseech your Lordships to take speedily into your Consideration how these great Inconveniencies may be remedied, and the Ruin of these Parts and of this wasted County may be prevented.

Nott. Jan. 2d, 1645, at One in the Morning.

"Your Lordships humble Servants,

"Rutland.

"T. Willoughby."

Their Letters to the Scots, that the Cloaths, &c. are arrived for their Army; and desiring a Meeting with them, to conser.

"1. My Lords and Gentlemen,

"The Convoy is come this Night hither. We have conferred with Lieutenant Colonel Urrey; and because we desire the Money and Cloaths may come with all Speed to you, and lest the breaking of the Frost should make the Ways very ill for Carriages, we have made Use of the same which came from London to come to Nottingham; but, by reason of the Orders given to their Convoy of Dragoons for their speedy Return to London, we cannot send them to your Quarters; we have therefore sent to the Committee at Nottingham, to provide Twelve Carriages, to be ready at Nottingham on Monday Morning, to meet the Money and Provisions there, and to bring them to you. We desire you to appoint your Commissary to meet them at Nottingham, to give Mr. Squire (who is sent down by the Committee at Gouldsmithes Hall) your Acquittance and Discharge for the Receipt of these Particulars, which are according to this Note inclosed. And, if you please, we will meet you at Nottingham, which we suppose the most convenient Place, to advise for the carrying on the Service intrusted with by both Kingdoms. The Time we leave to you, as may best suit with your own Occasions.

Grantham, Dec. 26, 1645.

"Your Lordships

"Affectionate Friends,

"and humble Servants."

Gen. Lesley's Answer.

"2. Right Honnorable,

"I have received yours of the 26 of this Instant; and shall, according to your Desire, forthwith dispatch our Commissary to attend our Carriages at Nottingham. I am sorry there are none of the Committee of the Parliament here for the present to meete with your Lordships; but, if it may please you, I doe intend to waite upon you at Nottingham Tuesday next, where I shall bee ready to contribute my best Endeavors, in adviseing what is fittest to bee done in carrying on the present Service. I am

"Your Lordships humble Servaunt,

"David Lesley."

Letter from the Committee to him, to delay his Assessments on the Counties till they have a Meeting, as Supplies are arrived.

"3. SIR,

"We have this Day received a Petition from the County of Nottingham, expressing their great and heavy Sufferings, and their Desire of speedy Remedy, to prevent their Ruin. In Discharge of the Trust reposed in us, we shall do our utmost Endeavours for them; and know not a more ready Way than by our speedy Conferring with you. We therefore desire you to meet us on Thursday Night next at Nottingham. These Motives do engage you and us to lose no Time; and will, we know, excuse our appointing this Day before we hear farther from you. We hear, the last Week's Assessment on the Counties of Nottingham and Darby for your Army do end To-morrow; and we most earnestly desire, that no farther Assessments may be made for your Forces till we have met, considering the Miseries of those Counties, (fn. 5) which are utterly exhausted; and that Cloaths and Fifteen Thousand Pounds Sterling in Money are come to you from the Parliament; and you will assuredly find our complying to provide Necessaries for you, that your Friends may have Subsistence, and the Counties no Cause to complain.

Grantham, 30 Dec. 1645.

"Your humble Servants,

"Rutland, &c."

Another, desiring to know what Authority he is invested with, to confer with them.

"4. Nottingham; 2 January, 1645.

"Whereas we are appointed by both Houses of Parliament, to advise and debate and conclude with our Brethren of Scotland, or such as shall be authorized by them thereunto, and, by joint Advice with them, to put in Execution all such Matters and Things concerning the Well-ordering, Directing, and Disposal of the Forces brought in and employed by them for their Assistance; and have received a Letter from you, wherein it is expressed, "That there is no Committee of the Parliament of Scotland now residing with your Army;" we therefore desire to know what Authority to join with us is given unto (fn. 6) you from the Parliament of Scotland, that accordingly we may apply ourselves in Prosecution of those Commands which we have received.

"Signed, in the Name, and by the Warrant, of the Committee of both Houses of the Parliament of England.

"Rutland."

Gen. Lesley's Answer, that he expects Commissioners from Scotland, who will be authorized to treat with them.

"5. Nottingham, January 2, 1646.

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"Since that your Lordships are appointed by the Honnorable Houses of the Parliament of England to conclude with such as shal bee authorised from the Parliament of Scotland, to order all Matters concerning the reduceing of the Towne of Newarke to the Obedience of King and Parliament; I daily expect that there shall bee Commissioners sent expresse from the Parliament of Scotland to attend your Lordships accordingly: I, in the meane Tyme, as Comaunder of this Army, am most willing to concurre with your Lordships in all Things that may bee thought necessary to conduce to the advanceing and accomplishing the Worke in Hand, provideing sufficient Maintenance may bee given for Horse and Men.

"Your Lordships Servaunt,

"David Lesly."

Proposal from the Committee, for Allowing 10,000£. per Month for the Scots Army, in Lieu of Free Quarter.

"Sum Weekly.

"7. Nottingham, 2 January, 1645.

"We do offer to provide for your Army, for Horse, Foot, Officers of the Staff, and Train of Artillery, the Sum of Ten Thousand Pounds, for Twentyeight Days, to begin from Wednesday last past; a Third Part to be paid in Money, the other Two Third Parts in Provisions, according to the Rates abovementioned, which shall be brought into your Quarters Weekly. We can give no Answer to the Numbers of the Soldiers, until, with your Consent, Musters of them shall be taken by such as we shall appoint; but, when we have taken Musters, we shall use our best Endeavours that Subsistence be provided for them according to their Numbers.

"Signed, in the Name, and by the Warrant, of the Committee of both Houses of the Parliament of England.

"Rutland."

Gen. Lesley's Answer to it.

"8. Nottingham, Januarii 2, 1646.

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"I understand your Lordships are only willing to give 10,000£. for 28 Dayes, for the Maintenance of our Army, which will not amount to the Halfe of what may make us subsist; the Horsemen being allotted 18 d. per Diem, the Foote Souldier 4 d. and the Officers Two Parts of his full Meanes, which is impossible for me to condiscend unto; wherefore I shall humbly desire your Lordships to bee pleased to give Orders for sufficient Maintenance, while as wee heare farther from the Committee of both Kingdomes; in doeing whereof, you shall further oblige me and those under my Comaund to undergoe any Thing that may best conduce to the Good of the Publique Service.

"Your Lordships humble Servaunt,

"David Lesley."

Paper from the Scots Commissioners, concerning the Answers to the King's Letter.

"Die Lunæ, 5 Januarii, 1645.

"At the Committee of both Kingdoms, at Derby House.

"Ordered, That the Paper given in by the Scotts Commissioners, concerning the Answer to the King's Letter, be reported to both Houses.

"Gualter Frost,

"Secretary to the same Committee."

"According to an Order of both Houses, your Lordships did, upon Saterday at Night, communicate unto us their Answere to the King's Letters, in Referrence to our Concurrence; and, upon Perusall thereof, wee have thought fitt to desire it may bee considered, whether soe full and expresse a charging of His Majesty, as is contayned in the Second Paragraph, doth conduce to the intended Pacification; and whether it may not, contrary to the Intentions of both Kingdomes, probably bee interpreted to a further End then to declyne a personall Treaty.

"Some Expressions wee conceive may, upon a Second Consideration, bee made more distinct and cleere, wherein wee are ready to concurre with your Lordships. One Thing there is, very materiall to us, which wee desire; insteed of these Words in the Third Sextion ["Your Majesty may please to remember, that, in our last Letter, we did declare, that Propositions from both Kingdoms were speedily to be presented to Your Majesty; which, being assented unto by Your Majesty, will be the only Means whereby You can give Satisfaction and Security to Your Kingdoms"]; because the Words, as they now stand, doe imply not only that the Parliaments of the Two Kingdomes will receive noe Propositions from His Majesty to bee the Foundation of a safe and well-grounded Peace; but alsoe that there can bee noe Sattisfaction or Security, unlesse His Majesty assent to every Particuler of the smalest Importance contayned in the Propositions to bee sent from both Kingdomes; and doth further imply, that there shal bee noe Treaty upon those Propositions; which Things wee have noe Power to declare, as is well knowne to the Honnorable Houses.

5 Dec. 1645.

"By Comaund of the Commissioners for the Parliament of Scotland.

"Jo. Cheisly."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 10^a cras.