House of Lords Journal Volume 8: 13 December 1645

Die Saturni, 13 die Decembris.

Prayers, by Mr. Cawdrey.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Wardours of The Tower, Petition.

Upon reading the Petition of the Yeomen Wardours of The Tower of London: It is Ordered, To be recommended to the House of Commons.

E. of Carlisle and his Creditors.

Ordered, That the Cause between the Earl of Carlile and his Creditors shall be heard, by Counsel on both Sides, at this Bar, on Tuesday next come Sevennight, whereof the Earl of Carlile is to have Notice of it.

L. Say & Seale's Petition, for some Allowance, on Account of his great Losses during this War.

Upon reading the Petition of Wm. Viscount Say & Seale; shewing, "That, in the Beginning of these Troubles, to manifest his good Affection to the Parliament, he did lend, upon the Propositions, a Thousand Pounds, which for his Estate was a very great Sum of Money; that, soon after, the King's Forces possessing themselves of Oxfordshire and Glostershire, where all his Lands lieth, have ever since had the same in their Power, and taken the Profit thereof, whereby he hath sustained very great Losses, as may appear by the Particulars annexed: As yet he hath received nothing from the Estate; but did forbear to petition, seeing the great Occasions there were for Monies, so long as he could possibly subsist without it; but now, having sold all his Plate, and borrowed so long as he could, to supply Necessaries for himself and Family, his Lordship is enforced to become an humble Suitor to the Houses, that, by some such Way as to their Wisdom shall seem fit, he may have wherewithall to maintain himself and Family.

Particulars of his Losses.

An Estimate of the Losses which the Lord Viscount Say & Seale hath sustained, in his Real and Personal Estate, since the Beginning of (fn. 1) these unnatural Wars.

1. In the Year before the War began, having ploughed up a good Part of his ancient Pasture Grounds, to raise Portions for his Younger Children, and to pay his Debts, and having a very great Crop of Corn and Wood; presently after Keinton Battle, it was seized upon by the King's Forces, being of a great Value.

2. At the same Time, they plundered him of all the Stock that was upon his Grounds, and the Furniture in his Houses, to a great Value; defacing, tearing, and burning, his principal House, at Broughton, in Oxfordshire.

3. They have likewise for these Three Years last past detained from him the Profits of all his Lands, from when he hath not received in all that Time above the Sum of Four Hundred Pounds.

4. And for the Profit of the Court of Wards, by reason of the present Distractions, and the several Votes that have passed for the taking away of that Court, he hath received very little Profit from thence these Three Years last past, save only Two Hundred Thirty-three Pounds per Annum for his Fee; but hath maintained his Family for the most Part by Monies borrowed, many of those whom he owes good Sums of Money to being brought into great Streights for Want thereof, which is a great Grief to him, being not able to pay them; all which Losses amount to above Ten Thousand Pounds, besides the Ruin of his Houses, which will not be made good again with Two Thousand Pounds, though the Enemy should pull no more down than they have done already."

To be sent to the H. C.

Ordered, That this Petition be specially recommended to the House of Commons; and Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page is appointed to deliver it on Monday Morning next.

Judgements in the Star-chamber against Prynn & al.

Ordered, That the Records in the Star Chamber, where the Judgement against Mr. Prynn, Doctor Bastwicke, and Mr. Burton, shall be brought into this House upon Tuesday Morning next, that so they may be vacated in this House.

E. of Carnarvon to be assessed by this House.

Upon Information to this House, "That the Earl of Carnarvan is sent to, by a Ticket, to pay Two Thousand Pounds, for his Fifth and Twentieth Part;" and considering that he is a Peer of this Kingdom, and a Ward: It is Ordered, That it shall be signified to the Committee at Haberdashers Hall, that, in regard his Lordship is a Peer of this Kingdom, he ought to be assessed by this House.

Passes for Col. Fisher & al. lately in the King's Service, to go beyond Sea.

The Earl of Manchester reported from the Committee of both Kingdoms, as their Opinion, "That Passes may be granted, to Colonel John Fisher, Colonel Wm. Willis, Colonel Wm. Rolston, and Colonel Phillip Honywood, lately in the King's Service, to go beyond the Seas:" Which this House approved of, and Ordered to be communicated to the House of Commons.

Papers from the Scots Commissioners.

Likewise he reported some Papers from the Scotts Commissioners, touching their Answer concerning the Answer to be sent to the King's Letter.

Message to the H. C. about the Passes for Col. Fisher & al.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

1. To desire their Concurrence to the Passes for the Colonels to go beyond the Seas, which were reported this Day from the Committee of both Kingdoms.

with Petitions;

2. To recommend to them the Petition of Colonel Searle.

3. To deliver to them the Petition of Sir Robert Coke, and desire the Consideration of it may be referred to the Committee of Lords and Commons for Sequestrations; and that he may be bailed, to prosecute his Business.

4. To deliver to them the Petition of the Wardours of The Tower, with Recommendations.

and about L. Digby's, &c. Letters taken at Sherborn.

5. To desire that the Committee which were formerly appointed to consider of the Letters taken at Sherborne may (fn. 2) meet this Afternoon, at Three a Clock.

The Scotts Papers were read, as follow:

Paper from the Scots Commissioners, that they do not agree to the Answer to the King's Letter.

Having receved from your Lordships His Majesty's Letter of the Fifth of this Instant to the House of Peeres, and at the same Time a Draught of the Answere of both Houses to that Letter; we finde in that Answere some Particulers wherein we are named as Consenters, to which we cannott agree; nether would it (we are consident) have ben expected from us, if our former Papers had ben considered, or we consulted therein, as formerly upon the like Occasions; concerning which we are ready to give your Lordships Satisfaction by Conference.

12 Dec. 1645.

By Comand of the Commissioners for the Parliament of Scotland.

"Jo. Cheislie."

Paper from them, proposing an Amendment to it, and for Propositions for Peace to be prepared.

Whereas, according to the Order of both Houses of Parliament, a Draught of their Answere to His Majesty's late Letter is by this Honorable Comittee comunicated to us the Comissioners of the Parliament of Scotland; we have taken both the Letter and the Draught of the Answere into our serious Consideration, and, with the Honorable Houses, doe, in the Name of the Parliament of Scotland, from our Harts pray and desire, according to our former Wishes and Endeavours, that a safe and wellgrounded Peace may be setled in His Majesty's Dominions, which we are apt to conceve may now, by the Blessinge of God, be brought to passe, when both His Majesty hath made the Motion upon the one Hand, and the Honorable Houses of Parliament have resolved and agreed to send Propositions and Bills unto His Majesty upon the other, for the same much-desired Ende.

Only, according to our Interest and Affection, and in relation to soe great an Happines, we doe expresse our Sense concerning some Particulers in the Answere: First, That, if it may seeme good to the Wisedome of the Honorable Houses, instead of these Words ["and should have accounted it a great Happines if Your Majesty's Actions had ben answerable"], that the Expression might runn thus, ["and shall account it a great Happines that Your Majesty's Actions be answerable"].

"Next, concerning that Parte of the Answere which seemeth to barr all further Treaty, we referr ourselves to our Paper of the 14th of August, wherein we declared ourselves most willing, that not only the Three maine Propositions debated at Uxbridge, but alsoe all or any of the other Propositions of Peace already agreed upon by the joynte Consent of both Kingdomes, which upon mutuall Debate should be judged necessary, be sent, with a Desire of a positive Answere, without any Treaty; but withall did shew, if any new Propositions of Peace, or any materiall Additions to, or Alterations of, the former Propositions, were to be sent, in that Case we were necessitated to send them to the Kingdome of Scotland, to be there considered and approved, (fn. 3) as is more fully conteyned in that our Paper, which we desire may be taken into Consideration at this Tyme: And this is all that is in our Power, or can be expected from us, in Matters of soe great Concernment, as cannot be determined without the particuler Knowledge and express Consent of the Parliaments of both Kingdomes, united by so many Bonds of Covenante, and of doeing and suffering in this common Cause. To the Point of denying the safe Conduct (the Houses havinge declared their Opinion), wee do agree; and earnestly desier, that, without Delay, the Propositions already agreed upon may be sent to His Majesty, for a positive Answer; but if any of them be altered, or any other materially different be intended, which may lay a Necessity upon us of sending them to the Parliament of Scotl. to be there considered and retorned hither, with their Sence, and so the Winter (the fittest Season for a Treaty) spent in Debates upon new Propositions, the present Oportunity lossed, Occasion given to our Enemies to use the more Art and Industry for bringinge in Forreyn Forces, when they apprehend by our Delayes their Motions of Peace not to be enterteyned; besides many other Inconveniencies, well knowne to the Honorable Houses, and felt of all the 3 Kingdomes, which accompany our present Distractions; the Contynuance or Increase of the commons Misseries through the not setling of a happy Peace cannot be imputed unto us, who have not seised constantly to express the sending of the Propositions agreed upon by both Kingdomes ever since the 20th of June last, have used our best Endeavors upon all Occasions with the Honorable Houses from Time to Time, and have left no good Meanes or Waies in our Power unessayed, which might deliver these Kingdomes out of their Trobles and Sufferings, and setle them in a blessed Peace: It is therfore our earnest Desire, that the presente Oportunity of Pacification be improved, unto which wee are ready to joyne our uttermost Endeavors, wayting for the Success from the Blessing of God.

Dec. 12th, 1645.

"By Comaund of the Commissioners for the Parliament of Scotland.

"Jo. Cheisly."

Message from the H. C. with an Ordinance, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Evelyn Knight, &c.

1. To desire Concurrence in an Ordinance for Two Thousand Pounds for the Lyncolneshire Forces.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

2. Instructions to be given to the Committees that are to be sent from the Houses of Parliament, to reside with the Forces at Newarke, being in Two Papers.

Sheriffs of Counties.

"Resolved, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That Sir Richard Bettenson shall be High Sheriff of the County of Surrey; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Mr. William Phillips shall be High Sheriff of the County of Pembrooke; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Sir Thomas Henley Knight shall be High Sheriff of the County of Sussex; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That James Lewes Esquire, of Cardigan Castle, shall be High Sheriff of the County of Cardigan; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Mr. Charles Gwyn shall be High Sheriff of the County of Carmarthen; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Mr. Howell Gwin, of Glanbraine, shall be High Sheriff of the County of Brecon; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Onslow Winch Esquire shall be High Sheriff of the Counties of Hunt. and Cambridge; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission for Sheriff, in Form usual, accordingly

Resolved, &c. That Colonel Thomas Mitton shall be High Sheriff of the County of Salop; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Patent accordingly.

Resolved, &c. That Edward Carne, of Ewenny, Esquire, shall be High Sheriff of the County of Glamorgan; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Commission for High Sheriff, in Form usual, accordingly.

"Resolved, &c. That Sir John Norwich Baronet shall be High Sheriff of the County of North'ton; and that the Commissioners of the Great Seal do grant him a Patent accordingly."

Order for 2000l. for the Forces of Lincoln and Lynn.

"It is this Day Ordained, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That Two Thousand Pounds, with Interest for the same, after the Rate of Eight Pounds per Centum, until the Payment thereof shall be paid in due Course (after other Assignments first satisfied), out of the Receipts of the Excise, by Ordinance of the 11th of September, 1643, for Provisions made by an Order of the Commons House of Parliament, dated the 2d of this Instant December, for the Service of the Forces of Lincolne and Lynn, unto Thomas Toll Esquire, a Member of the House of Commons: And it is further Ordained, That if any Person or Persons shall advance and lend the said Two Thousand Pounds, or any Part thereof, that then every such Person or Persons respectively, their respective Executors or Administrators, shall be satisfied and paid the respective Sum or Sums of Money so lent, with Interest for the same as aforesaid, for so long Time as the same, or any Part thereof, shall be unpaid, out of the said Receipts of Excise, in Order and Course aforesaid; and that the Interest for the said Two Thousand Pounds shall be paid to the respective Person or Persons lending the same, or any Part thereof, their respective Executors, Administrators, or Assigns, at the End of every Six Months (from the respective Times of the Advance thereof, or any Part thereof), until the said Two Thousand Pounds and Interest shall be paid, out of the said Receipts of Excise; and the Commissioners of Excise and new Impost are hereby authorized to make Payment of the said Two Thousand Pounds and Interest accordingly; and the Receipt of the said Thomas Toll, testifying the Receipt of the respective Sum or Sums of Money advanced for the Purposes aforesaid, together with the respective Receipt or Receipts of the Person or Persons lending the same, or any Part thereof, their respective Executors, Administrators, or Assigns, shall be a sufficient Discharge to the Commissioners of Excise, and every of them, for Payment of the said Two Thousand Pounds and Interest as aforesaid."