House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 15 February 1645

DIE Sabbati, 15 die Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Rayner.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Committee to draw up Reasons concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, &c.

Ordered, That these Lords following are appointed to consider of the Reasons of the Conference Yesterday with the House of Commons, and what is fit to be given by Way of Answer to the House of Commons:

To meet presently.

Message from the H. C. with a Letter to the French King;

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by John Lisle Esquire;

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in these Particulars:

1. A Letter to be sent to the French King. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

for Mr. Stroud to be of the Assembly;

2. That Mr. Stroude may be added, to be a Member of the Assembly, in the Place of Mr. White, lately deceased. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

and to expedite Two Ordinances.

3. To desire Expedition in the Ordinance formerly brought up, concerning the swearing of the Sheriff of the County of Lancashire.

4. To desire Expedition in the Ordinance for the new Model of the Army, it being a Thing which concerns the Safety of the Kingdom.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships do agree in the Letter to the French King, and adding Mr. Stroude to be of the Assembly; to the Ordinance for Lancashire, and the Ordinance concerning the new Model of the Army, their Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Packet from the Commissioners for the Treaty.

Next, the Speaker acquainted the House with a Packet received from the Commissioners at Uxbridge; and the inclosed Letters and Papers were read, as followeth. (Here enter them.)

Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to consider of the King's Letter to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, concerning enlarging the Time of the Treaty, aud whether the Three Sabbathdays are to be exclusive or inclusive the Twenty Days.

Reasons to be offered at a Conference, concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax.

The Earl of Manchester reported from the Committee, the Reasons to be offered to the House of Commons, in Answer to the Conference with the House of Commons Yesterday, concerning the Ordinance touching the new Model of the Army. (Here enter them.)

And also was reported an Amendment to the Addition of the Proviso for disabling the Officers that refuse to take the Covenant. And, after Consideration, it was Resolved, upon the Question, That this House agrees to these Reasons as now reported, and also to the Penalty in the Proviso now read.

Ordered, That these Reasons and the Alteration in the Proviso shall be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference.

Message to the H. C. for a further Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, touching the late Conference concerning the Ordinance of the new Model of the Army.

Ordered, That the Lord General hath Leave, at the next Conference, to speak somewhat concerning the Expression in the Letter Yesterday received from the House of Commons, touching Dulbeir.

Proctor to attend, for exhibiting Bills in the Exchequer, intituled, "To Ld. Cottington and Sir E. Hyde."

Upon Information to this House, "That there have (fn. 1) been divers Bills of late exhibited into the Court of Exchequer, intituled, "To Lord Cottington Lord Treasurer, and Sir Edward Hyde Chancellor of the Exchequer," which Titles and Places have been confirmed contrary to the Votes of both Houses;" and upon the Perusal of One Bill assigned, so intituled, subscribed by one Richard Proctor, a Lawyer: It is Ordered, That the said Ric'd Proctor shall attend this House on Monday Morning next, and answer the same. And it is further Ordered, That the Officers of the Exchequer do, on Monday next, bring in to this House such Informations as have been exhibited into that Court within Two Years, that so this House may see what Titles have been used in other Informations.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House [ (fn. 1) of Commons]:

That they will give a present Conference, as is desired.

The Speaker is to read this at the Conference, as followeth:

Reasons to be offered to the H. C. at a Conference, concerning the Ordinance for putting the Army under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax, and for new modeling it.

"My Lords have considered of your Reasons, which you brought up at the Conference Yesterday: And, in the First Place, they desire that we may call to Mind the Grounds upon which both Houses did enjoin the taking of this Solemn League and Covenant throughout the whole Kingdom: They have therefore commanded me to read unto you that Part of the Ordinance which mentions it; and they think it most worthy of our great Care and Consideration, that we do nothing that may carry any Semblance to the World, as if we had not the same Esteem and Regard of the Solemn League and Covenant as formerly we had.

"In Answer to your Reasons, they have commanded me to let you know, that they do acknowledge that the Addition, which the House of Commons have made to the Proviso offered by them, (fn. 2) doth give more Strength unto the Ordinance than before it had; and they account it of the happy Privileges of Parliament, that each House may make what supplemental Additions they think fit (whilst the Bills or Ordinances are in their Houses), in order to that End for which the Bill or Ordinance is framed; and therefore they, finding this Ordinance defective through the Want of a penal Clause, did make an Addition thereof in their last Proviso.

"They do not conceive this Penalty to be of an unusual Nature, it being the same with that which is imposed upon the City of London, and all Officers and Pleaders in the Courts of Westm.

"Read the Ordinance, Foll. 88 and 160.

"And, in their Opinion, the Parliament does not fully discharge their Duty, in Pursuance of their own Ends, if they shall make Laws or Ordinances without Penalties; for the penal Part of every Law or Ordinance is that which gives Life, otherwise the Law in itself will grow a dead and insignificant Letter.

"They conceive that, where Obedience is required in reference to a Religious Duty, there prejudicial Considerations are not so to take Place, as to occasion any Alteration in the Rule, or Dispensation in the Observation, of what is enjoined; but they look upon this Conjuncture of Time the most proper Season to press the Covenant in the Manner set down in this Proviso which they now tender to you; for we are now modelizing an Army, which will have the greatest Power and Strength in their Hands; and therefore it is necessary to take Care, that such as bear Office in this Army should be such as do agree unto that Form of Church Government, which (fn. 3) the Parliament holds forth to the World to be their Desire; otherwise the Danger will be great, to have our chiefest Military Power in their Hands, who shall refuse to be united in that Solemn League and Covenant which both Kingdoms have sworn inviolably to observe and maintain. My Lords do therefore insist upon the Proviso formerly delivered to you, with these Alterations and Additions.

"The Amendments:

"After the Word ["displaced"], leave out the Words ["and made uncapable to have any Charge and Command within the said Army"]; and, instead thereof, add these Words, ["and shall not be admitted to any Office or Command in this said Army, until they shall have taken the said Solemn League [ (fn. 4) and Covenant] as aforesaid, and such their Conformity certified and approved of by both Houses of Parliament"]."

The Letter and Papers received this Day from the Commissioners at Uxbridge.

Letter from the Commissioners, for the Treaty about the Propositions concerning Religion, and the Time limited for the Treaty.

"My Lord,

"By the several Papers now sent unto you, you will see the Result of the Second Three Days upon the Matters of Religion, wherein we have had many large Debates, and received not their First Answers until Five or Six of the Clock Yesterday in the Afternoon, nor their last Answers to our Replies till One of the Clock this Morning, so as, the Time allotted for this Subject being expired, we could proceed no further for the present; but expect your Pleasure, how you intend that the Twenty Days for the Treaty shall be accounted, in regard we could not begin the First Three Days upon Religion till Friday the 31th of January, and that there will happen Three Lordsdays within the Time, which are no Days of Treaty. According to your Directions herein, we shall govern ourselves; who are,

"Your Lordship's Faithful and humble Servants,

Uxbridge, 14 Feb. 1644.

"Northumb.
Pembrooke & Mount.
Salisbury.
B. Denbigh.

"Since the finishing our Letter, we received a Paper, with a Letter from His Majesty to His Commissioners, concerning Enlargement of the Time of the Treaty; Copies whereof are herewith sent you, together with our Answer."

King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament's have received Instructions about the King's Propositions.

"10 Feb. 1644.

"1^a Paper. Having now spent Three Days severally upon each of your Lordships Three Propositions, concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland; we desire to know, whether your Lordships have received any Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions, that we may prepare ourselves to treat upon them, when your Lordships shall think fit.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"Jo. Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniell Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners Answer.

"11 Feb.

"2^a. We have received Instructions concerning His Majesty's Propositions; and when the Houses of Parliament shall be satisfied in the good Progress of the Treaty, upon their Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, they will give Time for the Treaty upon those Propositions sent by His Majesty.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Examinatur,

"Dan. Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."

Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer to the Propositions about Religion.

"11 Feb. 1644.

"3^a. Having received no Satisfaction in the First Three Days appointed to treat upon the Propositions for Religion, we do now desire your Lordships clear and full Answer to our former Demands on this Subject, that no further Time may be lost in a Matter which doth so much concern the Glory of God, the Honour of the King, and the Peace and Happiness of His Kingdoms.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Dan. Earle.
Jo. Cheiseley."

King's Commissioners desire a Conference, to shew the Impropriety of passing the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy.

"11. Februarii, 1644.

"4^a. We gave your Lordships as much Satisfaction, in the First Three Days appointed to treat upon the Propositions for Religion, as in so short Time, and upon so little Information from your Lordships, could reasonably be expected, in a Matter of so great and high Importance; and as we have given your Lord ships already many Reasons concerning the Injustice and Inconveniency which would follow upon passing the Bill for abolishing of Episcopacy according to your First Proposition, so we are now ready, by Conference, to satisfy your Lordships why we conceive the passing the said Bill is not for the Glory of God, or the Honour of the King, and consequently cannot be for the Peace and Happiness of His Kingdoms: And if your Lordships Reasons shall convince us in those Particulars, we shall willingly consent to what you desire; if otherwise, we shall offer to your Lordships our Consent to such other Alterations as we conceive may better contribute to the Reformation intended, and such as may stand with the Glory of God, and in Truth be for the Honour of the King, and the Peace and Happiness of the Kingdoms.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire the King's will consent to the Propositions concerning Religion.

"11 Februarii, 1644.

"5. We have received no Satisfaction from your Lordships, concerning the Propositions delivered in by us for Religion, in the Name of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms; nor have you made appear unto us any Injustice or Inconveniency in the passing of the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and, as it cannot be denied but the settling of Religion is a Matter which doth highly concern the Glory of God, the Honour of the King, and the Peace and Happiness of His Kingdoms, so do we desire your Lordships will grant those Demands which have been made unto you by us to that End; and we are ready, by present Conference, to receive what your Lordships will offer upon any of those Propositions, and to return that which may give your Lordships just Satisfaction.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Daniel Earle.
John Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to know all the proposed Alterations, before they consent to any.

"11 Februarii, 1644.

"6^a. Your Lordships having expressed, in your Paper of the First of February, that there are other Things touching Religion to be propounded by your Lordships to us, we presume that by this Time you may be enabled by your Instructions to propose the same, and therefore we desire to receive them from your Lordships; which we hope your Lordships will think very reasonable, when you consider how incongruous a Thing it will appear to most Men, to consent to real and substantial Alterations in the Matter of Religion, without having a View of the whole Alterations intended, when at the same Time there is Mention of further Alterations.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Examinatur,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners will deliver them; but desire an Answer to the others in the mean Time.

"11 Februarii, 1644.

"7. We shall deliver in very speedily that which remains with us, touching Religion, to be propounded unto your Lordships; but we do desire, as before, your Lordships Answer unto our Demands, in the same Order that we have proposed them; not conceiving it reasonable there should be any Time spent in Debates, or Answers, upon what we shall hereafter offer, till we have received Satisfaction in our former Propositions; which we desire may be speedily done, lest otherwise the Treaty be retarded, and the Expectations of both Kingdoms altogether frustrated.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurlowe.
Jo. Cheisly."

Proposition, concerning Religion, from the Parliament. Commissioners.

"11 Febr. 1644.

"8. In Answer to your Lordships Paper this Day delivered to us, we desire that His Majesty do give His Royal Assent to an Act of Parliament for the due Observation of the Lords-day; and to the Bill of suppressing of Innovations in Churches and Chapels, in and about the Worship of God, &c. and for the better Advancement of the Preaching of God's Holy Word in all Parts of this Kingdom; and to the Bill against enjoying of Pluralities of Benefices by Spiritual Persons, and Non-residences; and we shall, in due Time, give in to your Lordships our Demands concerning Papists, contained in the Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, and Tenth Propositions; and for His Majesty's assenting to an Act, to be framed and agreed upon in both Houses of Parliament, for the regulating and reforming of both Universities, of the Colleges of Westm'r, Winchester, and Eaton; and for the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children, and the Children of His Heirs and Successors, in the true Protestant Religion, as is in the One and Twentieth Proposition.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
John Cheisley.

Parliament's Commissioners desire a positive Answer to their Demands about Religion.

"12. Febr. 1644.

"9. (fn. 5) There having now been several Days spent in Debate upon the Propositions for Religion; and all Objections alledged to the contrary, either from Conscience, Law, or Reason, being fully answered, and the Time allotted for that so important a Part of the Treaty almost elapsed; we should be wanting to the Trust reposed in us, if we should not press and expect, as we do now, a clear and positive Answer to these Demands concerning Religion, which we have offered unto your Lordships from the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, as most necessary for the settling of a safe and well-grounded Peace in all His Majesty's Dominions.

"By Command of the Commissioners of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Chesley."

King's Commissioners are not satisfied with the Reasons offered for abolishing Episcopacy; and desire the Time of the Treaty may be enlarged.

"12 Febr. 1644.

"10. We deny that the Objections alledged by us against the passing the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy, from Conscience, Law, or Reason, have been fully answered by your Lordships, or that indeed we have received any Satisfaction from your Lordships in those Particulars: We have received no Information from your Lordships, to satisfy us that Episcopacy is, or hath been, an Impediment to a perfect Reformation, to the Growth of Religion, or that it is prejudicial to the Civil State, which we have often desired from your Lordships without Effect, and which are the Grounds upon which your Lordships propose the abolishing Episcopacy; and we shall be very willing, and are desirous, to receive your Lordships Reasons in those Particulars; and how short soever the Time allotted is for the Treaty (for which we cannot be answerable, being not bound up in Point of Time by His Majesty, as your Lordships say you are by your Instructions; and we should be glad that the same might be enlarged proportionably to the Importance of the Things to be treated on), we should be wanting to the great Trust reposed in us, if we should consent to those Demands as they are proposed to us by your Lordships, otherwise than as they are agreeable to our Consciences and Understandings; and such an Answer your Lordships shall receive from us to your Demands concerning Religion, upon which we hope a safe and well-grounded Peace, by the Blessing of God, may be established.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

Examinatur,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners insist upon an Answer to the Propositions concerning Religion.

"13 Febr. 1644.

"11. We did assure ourselves, that, after so many Days Debate concerning Religion, and our Removal of whatever Objections have been offered by your Lordships, and our making it appear how great a Hindrance Episcopal Government is, and hath been, to a perfect Reformation of the Growth of Religion, and prejudicial to the Civil State, that your Lordships would have been ready to have answered our Expectation with the Grant of our Demands; but, if still your Lordships remain unsatisfied, we conceive it cannot with any Justice be imputed unto us; and therefore we again desire your Lordships full and clear Answer to what we have delivered unto you concerning Religion.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Chesly."

King's Commissioners Reasons against agreeing to the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and their Proposals concerning Church Government, and against Pluralities and Nonresidence.

"13 Febr. 1644.

"12. We are not yet satisfied, that the Bill insisted on by your Lordships, which remains in His Majesty's Hands, for the utter abolishing of Archbishops, Bishops, Deans and Chapters, &c. ought to be enacted; believing it not agreeable to Conscience and Justice to alienate the Lands therein mentioned to Lay-uses, and not understanding that the Alienation thereof is necessary at all to the Reformation of Religion; that there is no certain Provision made for any of those who are now legally vested in those Possessions, whereby they and their Families shall be in evident Danger of Want of Bread; and it appearing, by your Lordships Propositions, which relate to the Articles of the late Treaty, of the Date at Edinburgh, 29 November, 1643, and the joint Declaration of both Kingdoms, to which you require our Assent as well as to the Bill, that Part of the Church Lands may be, after the passing this Bill, assigned to other Uses than is expressed in the said Bill. Upon these Considerations, and upon the Debate which hath passed between us upon this Bill, whereby it hath appeared that there should be so great an Alteration in the Civil State, by this Bill being enacted, in the Failure of Justice at the Common Law, and otherwise in many several Particulars of great Importance to the Subjects of this Kingdom, which, for aught appears to us, is not yet provided for; and that, by a particular Clause in the Bill, His Majesty's ancient and undoubted Power of the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction is wholly taken away: Besides, it may be very considerable, what Inconveniencies would ensue by passing this Bill now, which looks back, and is to begin from November was Twelve-month, whereby all those Acts of Jurisdiction exercised by Bishops since that Time are declared void, which would produce great Inconveniencies and Mischiefs, touching the Probates of Wills and Administrations throughout the Kingdom; not to speak of the Doubts which may arise in many conscientious Men who have been ordained by Bishops since that Time, which may seem to be likewise declared void by this Bill, and so at least to discountenance all Acts which have ensued by virtue of that Ordination, and thereby many Questions may arise in Law, concerning Marriages, Legitimations, and Descents of Inheritances; and, for many other Reasons expressed in our Conference and Debate, we conceive that your Lordships may be satisfied that this individual Bill ought not to pass.

"For the Matter then of the said Bill, the Extirpation of Episcopacy, we desire your Lordships to consider, that it is evident, and we conceive consented to on all Parts, that it hath continued even from the Apostles Times, by continual Succession, in the Church of Christ, till within these few Years, without Intermission or Interruption; and then how perilous a Thing it must be, and prejudicial to the Public Peace, to remove and destroy a Form of Government so long exercised in this Kingdom, and under which we have enjoyed as great a Measure of Happiness (to say no more) as any Nation in Christendom (and which your Lordships have not pretended to be unlawful), before we particularly see the Model of that Government and Jurisdiction which is to be established in the Place thereof, that thereby we may be assured that it be such to which as well those who like, as all those who dislike, the present Government, will submit; otherwise Peace, which is the main End and Pretence for Alteration, cannot be established: And therefore we very earnestly beseech your Lordships, to consider and weigh, whether, without shaking Foundations, it be not much better, and more agreeable to Christian Prudence and Charity, to remove those Particulars from the present Government, and make such Alterations therein as may most probably give Satisfaction to all Persons seriously disturbed or afflicted in their Consciences, than, by destroying the whole, to give just Offence and Scandal to very many pious and religious Persons.

"Under these Considerations, and for the uniting and reconciling all Differences between us in the Matter of Religion, and procuring a blessed Peace; we are willing,

"That Freedom be left to all Persons, of what Opinions soever, in Matters of Ceremony; and that all the Penalties of the Laws and Customs which enjoin those Ceremonies be suspended; that the Bishop shall exercise no Act of Jurisdiction or Ordination, without the Consent and Counsel of the Presbyters, who shall be chosen by the Clergy of each Diocese, out of the learnedest and gravest Ministers of that Diocese.

"That the Bishop keep his constant Residence in his Diocese, except when he shall be required by His Majesty to attend Him on any Occasion; and that (if he be not hindered by the Infirmities of old Age or Sickness) he preach every Sunday in some Church within his Diocese.

"That the Ordination of Ministers shall be always in a public and solemn Manner; and very strict Rules observed concerning the Sufficiency and other Qualifications of those Men who shall be received into Holy Orders; and the Bishops shall not receive any into Holy Orders without the Approbation and Consent of the Presbyters, or the major Part of them.

"That competent Maintenance and Provision be established, by Act of Parliament, to such Vicarages as belong to Bishops, Deans and Chapters; out of the Impropriations, or according to the Value of those Impropriations, of the several Parishes.

"That, for the Time to come, no Man shall be capable of Two Parsonages, or Vicarages with Cure of Souls.

"That, towards the settling of the Public Peace, One Hundred Thousand Pounds shall be raised, by Act of Parliament, out of the Estates of Bishops, Deans, and Chapters, in such Manner as shall be thought fit by the King and Two Houses of Parliament, without the Alienation of any of the said Lands.

"That the Jurisdiction, in Causes Testamentary, Decimal, Matrimonial, be settled, in such Manner as shall seem most convenient, by the King and Two Houses of Parliament; and likewise that One or more Acts of Parliament be passed, for regulating of Visitations, and against immoderate Fees in Ecclesiastical Courts, and the Abuses of frivolous Excommunications, and all other Abuses in the Exercise of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, in such Manner as shall be agreed upon by His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament.

"And if your Lordships shall insist upon any other Thing which your Lordships shall think necessary for Reformation, we shall very willingly apply ourselves to the Consideration thereof.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners cannot agree to the Proposals concerning Religion from the King's Commissioners; but insist on the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy, and their other Propositions concerning Religion.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"Whereas we expected your Lordships Resolution for His Majesty's Assent unto the Bill for the utter abolishing of Archbishops, Bishops, &c.; we find, by your First Paper given in this Evening, that your Lordships are not yet satisfied that the Bill should pass; and you are pleased to express several Reasons and Objections against it, which were at large answered and cleared in the Public Debate; but what was then said by us, is now by your Lordships wholly omitted, nor may we in Writing represent it again unto your Lordships, it not being agreeable to the Usage of Parliament to deliver Reasons for or against a Bill, though we were willing, by Conference in the Treaty, to satisfy all Doubts, and remove all Scruples, which remained with you.

"And so far were we from consenting that Episcopacy hath continued from the Apostles Times by continual Succession, that the contrary was made evident unto your Lordships, and the Unlawfulness of it fully proved; and for that which your Lordships have propounded, for uniting and reconciling all Differences in the Matter of Religion, it is a new Proposition which wholly differs from ours, is no Ways satisfactory to our Desires, nor consisting with that Reformation to which both Kingdoms are obliged by their solemn Covenant; therefore we can give no other Answer to it, but must insist to desire your Lordships, that the Bill may be passed, and our other Demands concerning Religion granted.

"By Command of the Commissioners of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisley."

Paper from the King's Commissioners, against the Ordinance for the Assembly, and the One for taking the Covenant.

"14 Februarii, 1644.

"14. For the Confirmation of the Ordinances concerning the Calling and Sitting of the Assembly of Divines, and the Taking the Covenant, we conceive neither of them need be insisted on, if the Alterations of Church Government be agreed upon between us; and if it be not, it will not be reasonable that we consent to those Ordinances; and for the Covenant, we cannot advise His Majesty to swear and sign the same, nor consent that an Act of Parliament should pass, for the enjoining the Taking thereof by His Majesty's Subjects.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire to know if these Two Ordinances are absolutely refused.

"13 Febr. 1644.

"15. We conceive your Lordships Second Paper, this Day delivered to us, is a Denial to our Demands; that the Ordinance for the Calling and Sitting of the Assembly of Divines be confirmed by Act of Parliament; and that His Majesty take the Solemn League and Covenant; and that the Covenant be enjoined to be taken according the Second Proposition; wherein if we misconceive your Lordships Intents, we desire you would explain your Meaning, and accordingly shall make our Reports to the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."

Paper from the King's Commissioners, desiring the former Liturgy may remain, and the Directory for Public Worship may be laid aside; and concerning Church Government.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"16. We do not yet conceive that the Directory for Public Worship, delivered to us by your Lordships, ought to be enacted, or that it is so likely to procure and preserve the Peace of this Kingdom, as the Liturgy or Common-Prayer-Book already established by Law, against which we have not yet received from your Lordships any Objections; which Liturgy (as the same was compiled by many Learned and Reverend Divines, of whom some died Martyrs for the Protestant Religion) we conceive to be an excellent Form for the Worship of God, and hath been generally so held throughout the Kingdom till within these Two or Three Years at the most; and therefore, since there are no Inconveniencies pretended to arise from the Book of Common-Prayer to which we conceive the Directory is not more liable, and since there is nothing commendable in the Directory which is not already in the Book of Common-Prayer, we conceive it much better, and more conducing to the Peace of this Kingdom, still to observe the said Form, with such Dispensations as we have expressed in our First Paper now presented to your Lordships; and if there shall be any Alterations proposed by your Lordships of such Particulars in the Book of Common-Prayer as good Men are scrupled at, we shall willingly endeavour to give your Lordships Satisfaction in those Particulars; but as yet can make no further or other Answer than we have already done, but shall be ready to receive such Objections as your Lordships shall think fit to make against the Book of CommonPrayer, and your Reasons for introducing the Directory; and for the Propositions concerning Church Government annexed to your First Paper, we have no Information how that Government shall be constituted in particular, nor what Jurisdiction shall be established, or by whom it shall be granted, or upon whom it shall depend; and therein also we desire further Information from your Lordships.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners take this for a Denial to the Directory and Church Government.

"13 Febr. 1644.

"17. We do conceive your Lordships Third Paper is a Denial of our Demands concerning the Directory of Public Worship, and the Proposition for Church Government, against which your Lordships have made no Objections; and your Queries are already satisfied by Conference; and we shall accordingly make our Reports to the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"By Command of the Commissioners of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."

Paper from the King's Commissioners, desiring some Bills about Church-matters, about the Marriage of the King's Children, Suppression of Popery, &c.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"18. We desire to see the Bills for the Observation of the Lords-day, for Suppression of Innovations in Churches and Chapels, and for the better Advancement of the Preaching of God's Holy Word, which are mentioned in your Lordships Paper of the 11th of February, we being very ready to consent to the Subject-matter of those Bills; we have expressed, in our Paper delivered to your Lordships, what we conceive fit to be done in the Business of Pluralities, which will prevent many Inconveniencies that Way; and when your Lordships shall give us your Demands concerning Papists, and when we shall see the Acts for the regulating and reforming of both Universities, of the Colleges of Westm. Winchester, and Eaton, and for the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children, and the Children of His Heirs and Successors, in the true Protestant Religion, we shall give your Lordships such Answers as shall be fit, being very willing to concur with your Lordships in any good Means for the suppressing of Popery, and Advancement of the Protestant Religion; and we are well assured, that His Majesty hath taken a pious Care for the Education of all His Children in the true Protestant Religion; and having already married One of His Children, to the Satisfaction, we conceive, of all His good Subjects, we are confident, in due Time, His Majesty will so dispose of the rest in Marriage, as shall be most for the Advancement of Religion, and the Good and Welfare of all His Dominions.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners Answer.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"19. To your Lordships Fourth Paper, we answer, The Bill for suppressing of Innovations in Churches and Chapels, in and about the Worship of God, &c. and for the better Advancement of the Preaching of God's Holy Word in all Parts of this Kingdom, and against the enjoying of Pluralities of Benefices by Spiritual Persons, and Non-residences, were heretofore presented to His Majesty, and remain with Him; and we herewith deliver to your Lordships the Ordinance for the due Observation of the Lordsday; and we insist on our former Demands concerning them: And when your Lordships have given us your full Answers to our Desires already with you concerning Religion, we then shall deliver unto your Lordships our Demands concerning Papists, the regulating the Universities, the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children in the true Protestant Religion, contained in Our Paper of the 11th of this Instant February.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisley."

King's Commissioners further Arguments against the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy; and desire an Answer to their Objections to them in Writing.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"20. We conceive that our Answer to your Lordships, concerning the Bill for the utter abolishing of Archbishops, Bishops, &c. was so reasonable, that it clearly appears thereby, that the passing that individual Bill is not agreeable to Conscience and Justice, and that it would be very prejudicial to the Civil State, and to the Peace of the Kingdom; neither have the Reasons and Objections given by us against it, first in Debate, and since in Writing, been answered in Debate by your Lordships; and therefore we know no Reason why your Lordships may not give an Answer to those Objections in Writing; for, as it is not agreeable to the Usage of Parliament for the Two Houses to give His Majesty Reasons why (fn. 6) He should pass any Bill presented by them, so it is no more agreeable to the same Usage, for His Majesty to give Reasons, why (fn. 6) He doth not pass Bills so presented: But we desire your Lordships to consider, that we are now in a Treaty; and we conceive the proper Business thereof to be, for your Lordships to give us Reasons why His Majesty should consent to those Propositions made by you, or for us to give Reasons to your Lordships why we cannot consent to those Propositions; otherwise it would only be a Demand on your Lordships Part, and no Argument of Treaty between us. And we must prosess to your Lordships, that, as we conceived in our former Paper, that as the Succession of Episcopaey by continual Succession from the Apostles Time was consented to on all Parts, so we cannot remember that the contrary thereof was so much as alledged, much less that the Unlawfulness thereof was proved, the Question of the Lawfulness thereof having never yet come into Debate; and we shall be very ready to receive any Assertion from your Lordships to that Purpose, not doubting but we shall give your Lordships full Satisfaction in that Point; and we conceive the Alterations proposed by us to your Lordships to be a very proper Answer to your Lordships Propositions, and most agreeable to the End for which those Propositions seemed to be made: And since it appears that the utter abolishing of Episcopacy in the Manner proposed is visibly inconvenient, and may be mischievous; the regulating of Episcopacy, being most consonant to the primitive Institution, will produce all those good Effects towards Peace and Unity; which regulated Episcopacy is the Sum of our former Paper, and we desire your Lordships to consent to the same. And we again offer to your Lordships, that, if you shall insist upon any other Thing necessary for Reformation, we will apply ourselves to the Consideration thereof.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Answer to them.

"13 Februarii, 1644.

"Concerning the Ordinances for the Calling and Sitting of the Assembly of Divines, and the taking the Covenant, we can give no further Answer than we have done in our Second Paper delivered to your Lordships this Day.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

King's Commissioners desire to know the Objections to the Common-Prayer Book, and the Reasons for establishing the Directory;

"13 Febr. 1644.

"22. Our Expressions, in our Answer to your Lordships Demands concerning the Directory for Public Worship, import only what we as yet conceive concerning that Matter, there having hitherto been no Debate touching the same, or concerning the Common-Prayer-Book now established by Law, and thereby (fn. 7) intended to be abolished; and therefore we did

and what Form of Church Government is proposed.

in that Paper, and do still, desire to receive your Lordships Objections against the Book of Common Prayer, and your Reasons for introducing the Directory; neither can our Answer to the Propositions for Church Government, annexed to your First Paper, be otherwise taken, than as our Desire to receive Information how that Government should be constituted in particular, and what Jurisdiction should be established, by whom granted, and upon whom it should depend; which Queries were not satisfied by any Conference, your Lordships (as we conceive) having declared yourselves, that the particular Form or Model of that Government, mentioned in those Propositions only in general, were not then particularly agreed on, and we have since desired and expected to receive it; and therefore your Lordships cannot conceive we have denied that which we have not yet seen, nor been informed of.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

They desire Copies of Papers formerly sent to the King, about Religion; and will treat about Papists, the Marriage of the King's Children, &c.

"13 Febr. 1644.

"23. We have not the Bills here which we desired of your Lordships in our Fourth Paper to see, and which you now say were heretofore presented to His Majesty; but we shall take speedy Care to have those Bills if they remain with His Majesty, and in the mean Time desire your Lordships to give us Copies of them; and we shall give your Lordships a speedy Answer, as we shall to the Ordinance for the due Observation of the Lords-day, which we received from your Lordships this Night, and had never before seen; and we shall be ready to receive your Lordships Demand concerning Papists, the regulating the Universities, the Education and Marriage of His Majesty's Children; and shall return our Answers accordingly.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

"14 Februarii, 1644.

They desire the Time for the Treaty may be lengthened.

"We have this Day received Direction from His Majesty to move your Lordships, that you will endeavour to procure an Addition of Time for this Treaty, after the Expiration of the Days limited for the same, upon the Reasons mentioned in His Majesty's Letter; which Letter we herewith deliver unto your Lordships.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

King's Commission, authorizing His Commissioners to prolongue the Treaty.

"CHARLES R.

"Right Trusty and Right Entirely-beloved Cousins and Counsellors, Right Trusty and Right Wellbeloved Cousins and Counsellors, Right Trusty and Well-beloved Counsellors, and Trusty and Wellbeloved, We greet you well Having received from you a particular Account of your Proceedings in the Treaty, and observing thereby how impossible it is, within the Days limited, to give such Answers to the Three Propositions you are now upon, as you might, if, upon Consideration had of the rest of the Propositions, you could clearly see what Fruit such Answers will produce, in order to a blessed Peace for the present, and the future Good and Happiness of this Kingdom: We have thought it fit to advise you, that you propose and desire of the Commissioners with whom you treat, that they will procure such further Time to be allowed, after the Expiration of the Twenty Days, as may be sufficient for you, upon a full Understanding one of another, upon the whole to make such a Conclusion, that all Our Subjects may reap the Benefit good Men may pray, for Deliverance from these bloody Distractions, and be united in Peace and Charity; and, if you think fit, you may communicate this Our Letter unto them. And so We bid you heartily Farewell.

"Given at Our Court at Oxford, the 13th of February, 1644.

"To Our Right Trusty and Right Entirelybeloved Cousins and Counsellors, and Our Right Trusty and Right Wellbeloved Cousins and Counsellors, and Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Counsellors, and Our Trusty and Wellbeloved, Our Commissioners for the Treaty at Uxbridge.

"Exam'r,

"By His Majesty's Command.

"John Thurloe Secretary.
George Digby."
Daniel Earle Secretary.

Parliament's Commissioners will apply to the House about it.

"14 Febr. 1644.

"Concerning the Paper delivered by your Lordships for Addition of Time for the Treaty, we can give no other Answer, than that we will send Copies of His Majesty's Letter, and of the Paper, unto the Houses of Parliament; and, after Signification of their Pleasure, we will give further Answer.

"By Command of the Commissioners of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Jo. Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisley."

Letter to the French King, to release the Goods of English Merchants, and to restore English Ships, &c. taken by the French.

"Your Royal Majesty may please to understand, by this Address, that the Parliament of England having received Information, by the Complaints of the Merchants of this Nation, that, by Order from Your Majesty, their Goods have been lately seized, arrested, and sold, at the Instance of some of Your Majesty's Subjects, pretending that Justice is here denied to them, do think it necessary to give Your Majesty this real Assurance, that their Endeavours are wholly bent to keep inviolably the ancient Amity and Commerce between both Kingdoms; and, to that End, have been and are both desirous and ready to cause speedy Justice to be admitted to Your Majesty's Subjects, when they shall demand it in a legal Way: Mean while they most earnestly entreat Your Majesty, that, according to Justice and Equity you will please to command Your Ministers concerned therein forthwith to revoke the Arrests, to release all Seizurcs made of the English Merchants Goods, and likewise to free and restore all Ships of War, and of Merchants, belonging to this Crown; and if any Sale be already made of any such Ships or Goods, that Satisfaction be forthwith given to the Owners, that thereby Trade and Commerce may be restored to its just Liberty, and the mutual Friendship and Correspondence between these Two anciently-allied Crowns may be happily continued, to the Honour and Advantage of both Nations, which is the unfeigned Desire of the Parliament of England, who have authorized and commanded us to subscribe ourselves, in their Names,

"Your Majesty's Most humble Servants,

"Gray of Warke, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9^a cras.