House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 11 January 1645

DIE Sabbati, 11 die Januarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Marshall.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Witnesses concerning Mr. Thayne, at Haberdashers Hall.

Ordered, That Rob't Powell, Wm. Cooke, Eliz. Holmes, and Anne Lane, shall be summoned to attend this House, to take their Oath at this Bar, concerning the Examinations given in at Haberdashers Hall, concerning Mr. Thayne, Gentleman Usher of this House.

Petit, De Liques, and Faucault, Petition, for a Protection whilst they and employed in weighing some Ships with their new-invented Engines.

Upon reading the Petition of Dominique Petit, Peter De Liques, and Claudius Fawcault; shewing, "That whereas, by an Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament, the Petitioners have framed some Engines, and set them upon Two Ships belonging to them, the one of Three Hundred Tuns Burthen called The Box Tree, the other of One Hundred and Twenty Tuns named The Pearle Hoy, to be employed at Sea, for Benefit of the State, in which Service, and maintaining Four Ships, and waiting a great while for a fair Opportunity, they have disbursed and expended about Three Thousand Pounds; and being indebted to some Persons that are very urgent upon them at this Time, when they want Money, and are Strangers in this Kingdom, they are like to be exposed to much Distress, and their said Service to be hindered.

"Therefore the Petitioners humble Suit, that their Lordships will be pleased to give some Order or Directions to the Right Honourable the Lord Admiral, that he may protect their Persons and Ships from all Arrests and Molestations, till the 20th of July next, that the said Engines may be put in Execution, the Season for the same not being fit till Summertime."

Ordered, That the Petitioners shall have the Protection of this House, as is desired, in regard of the Public Business they are about; and the Lord Admiral is hereby appointed to see that they have (fn. 1) and enjoy it.

Heads for a further Conference, concerning the Ordinance for excluding Members from holding Offices.

The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee hath considered of what Answer is fit to be returned to the Conference (fn. 2) lately had with the House of Commons, concerning the Ordinance touching the exempting of the Members of the Houses from having Office, Civil or Military."

The Paper being read; it is Ordered, To have a Conference with the House of Commons, and communicate the same to them.

Message to the H. C. for it.

And accordingly a Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page:

To desire a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, concerning this Business.

Message from thence; with Ordinances;

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Whitlocke Esquire, &c.

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in these Ordinances:

1. Concerning paying of One Thousand Pounds to Mr. Estwicke, &c. (Here enter.)

Agreed to.

2. An Ordinance concerning the Gaol at Yorke.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

3. An Ordinance concerning the regulating the billeting of Soldiers.

and that the Business of the Army, Navy, Church, and Treaty, shall be first taken into Consideration.

4. To acquaint their Lordships with a Vote made by the House of Commons, "That the Armies and the Treaties, the Church and the Navy, shall be taken into Consideration peremptorily the First Business; and that no other Business shall intervene, or be admitted, whatsoever, until these Businesses be settled."

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships agree to the Ordinance for paying One Thousand Pounds to Mr. Estwicke, and to the Ordinance concerning the Gaol of Yorke; as to the rest of the Particulars of this (fn. 3) Message, their Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Answer from the H. C.

Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they will give a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Order to pay Mr. Estwick 1000 l. borrowed for the Ld. General's Army.

"Whereas the Honourable Committee of Lords and Commons sitting at Habberdashers Hall, London, and the Committee of the Militia of the City of London, did, upon the 13th of October, 1643, borrow of Stephen Estwicke the Sum of One Thousand Pounds, upon an emergent Occasion, towards the Supply of the pressing Necessities of the Lord General's Army, when the Fifty Thousand Pounds lent the Parliament by the City of London came not in Time enough to supply the said Necessities; and whereas the said Mr. Estwicke, at the Time of his lending the said One Thousand Pounds, was promised, not only by the said Committee of Lords and Commons, but also by the said Committee of the Militia, to be re-paid the said One Thousand Pounds out of the First Monies that should come in of the said Fifty Thousand Pounds then in Arrear; and, to the End the Arrears of the said Fifty Thousand Pounds might be paid, and Mr. Estwicke satisfied, the Committee of the Militia did, upon the 9th of October, 1644, present a Paper to the said Committee of Lords and Commons, under Eleven of their Hands, to put the Ordinance of Parliament in Execution, to compel the several Companies of the said City to pay in their Arrears, to the End the said Mr. Estwick might be satisfied, which the said Committee of Lords and Commons have done accordingly; and whereas it was the Intention of the said Committee of Lords and Commons, and the Committee of the Militia, to repay Mr. Estwick the said One Thousand Pounds immediately after the borrowing thereof: It is therefore Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Treasurers of Money and Plate, at Guildhall, London, do forthwith pay unto the said Stephen Estwick the Sum of One Thousand Pounds, out of the said Companies Money lately received, and to be received by the said Treasurers by Order of the said Committee of Lords and Commons; which Money, so paid by the said Treasurers, is to be accounted Part of the Fifteen Thousand Pounds lent the Parliament by the said City, about the 11th of August, 1643."

Ordinance concerning the Gaol at York.

"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That The Back GateHouse of St. Maryes in Yorke, with the Rooms over it and adjacent unto it, and also the Room called Garners within the said Mannor Yard, together with the said Mannor Yard, be appointed for keeping the County Gaol in, till the Castle be restored to its former Use; and that it be referred to the Lord Fairefax, Governor, to appoint the said Places accordingly; and that Sir William Strickland acquaint the Governor with this Order: And it is further Ordered, That the Commissioners of Parliament residing at Yorke do allow Money for making the Gaol strong and sufficient, and Irons for the Prisoners, out of the Assessments of the County."

Heads for the Conference concerning the Lords rejecting the Ordinance for excluding Members of both Houses from holding Offices, Civil and Military.

"The Lords have considered the Paper delivered by the House of Commons, at a Conference, the Ninth Day of this Month, in Answer to another Paper delivered by the Lords, at a like Conference, Two Days before, wherein were contained the Reasons and Grounds of their Lordships dissenting from them in the Ordinance for exempting the Members of either House from any Office, Civil or Martial; and the Lords do find, that the House of Commons have in their Paper wholly mistaken the State of the Question; for the Lords do admit it for Truth, what is said by them, "That, in a Bill or Ordinance, when either House makes Alteration or Amendment, the Bill or Ordinance itself is returned, together with such Alteration or Amendment; and that otherwise Mistakes cannot be avoided, nor the Way of transacting Bills and Ordinances in both Houses be certain and regular:" But their Lordships do not understand how this Rule hath been broken by them, or that it is at all applicable to the present Case, for that they had not then any Thought of making Alterations or Amendments in that Ordinance; and cannot but wonder it should be so far mistaken, since they did (as they conceived) offer strong and satisfactory Reasons against the main Body of the Ordinance so penned, it being such as no Amendment or Alteration could in their Opinions make it fit for them to pass, except such as should alter it to be quite another Thing; so as it could not be expected their Lordships should, together with those Reasons, send down the Ordinance, because the Ordinance and those Reasons could not stand together: Therefore, whereas it is further expressed, by Way of Complaint, that no particular Amendments or Alterations were delivered, that is very true, for their Lordships did not then intend it; but, by the Way, it is observable, that the House of Commons do, by their own Saying, clear the Lords of the Breach of the Rule laid down by them in the Beginning; for if the Lords delivered no Amendments or Alterations, they could not be liable to any Exception for not sending down the Ordinance; and for what is said besides, that, if the Reasons be admitted, yet no Ordinance would thereby pass, it is acknowledged; for in Truth those Reasons were for that End given, that the Ordinance so penned should not pass: But that which their Lordships are tenderly affected with is, that other Expression, "That the Paper sent down by them is a Breach of Privilege, and contrary to the constant Course of Parliaments." Their Lordships cannot here be silent, knowing how forward the House of Peers hath been (which all the World will witness with them) to afford a yielding Compliance to almost all the Desires of the House of Commons, and how careful not to break any of their Privileges, even to the Prejudice of some of their own: Therefore they desire the House of Commons will reciprocally express some Tenderness of them, and not to entertain such an Opinion, especially in a Particular of this Nature, wherein their Lordships are strongly persuaded that the House of Commons have formerly delivered a clean contrary Sense; for the Lords well remember, that when they had rejected an Ordinance sent up by the House of Commons, concerning an Oath of Secrecy to be taken by the Committee of the Two Kingdoms, and not imparted their Reasons for so doing before unto that House, the House of Commons desired a Conference upon it; and there it was delivered, by a worthy Member, Mr. Rowse, "That a direct Denial seemed to cut off further Consideration and Conference concerning the Matter proposed, especially where a Negative is returned before any Reasons proposed or heard, and which, being heard, might have altered the Opinion of either House; which (as was then said) the Commons had the more Reason to resent, because the Lords, having voted Reasons in their own House, would not vouchsafe to communicate them to the Commons." This was the Opinion then of the House of Commons, who found Fault, because the Lords had thrown out that Ordinance without communicating their Reasons before. The Lords have now avoided that which the House of Commons conceived to be an Inconvenience, their Lordships being desirous to preserve the good Understanding which ought to be between the Two Houses; and therefore would not cast out this Ordinance so penned, before they had imparted the Grounds and Reasons of their so doing unto the House of Commons, that so they might either satisfy them with their Reasons, or be satisfied by them with better, and both come to be of One Mind, which they desired should be in this and in all Things else, and conceived this to be the ready Way to it, not suspecting it possible to be disliked by the House of Commons, especially having been so lately moved unto it by the House of Commons themselves: Yet this is now said to be a Breach of Privilege of Parliament, and contrary to the constant Course of Parliaments. The Lords are very sorry to find their Actions to be so misconstrued; and do assure you, they had no such Intention. The Privileges of Parliament being sacred unto them, they are bound by Protestation and Covenant to maintain them, which they have done with Hazard of their Lives and Loss of their Fortunes. They wished with all their Hearts some Course were taken, by the Wisdom of both Houses, to search out and to ascertain these Privileges, that neither House might fail in the Observation of their own and of each other's Privileges; so to avoid all Inconveniencies of this Nature between the Houses for the Time to come."