House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 2 December 1644

DIE Lunæ, 2 die Decembris.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Gibson.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Narrative concerning the Affairs at Newbury, relative to Dunnington Castle, and Speeches of Lieut. Gen. Cromwell.

The Earl (fn. 1) of Manchester acquainted the House, "That he having made a Narrative to their Lordships, concerning the Business of the Affairs of the Army at Newbury, and other Affairs, and by their Lordships commanded to put it down in Writing, which he (fn. 1) has accordingly done, and is ready to present it to the House:" Which the House received, and caused it to be read. (Here enter them.)

The Narrative being of Two Parts, one concerning the Business touching the Affairs of the Army at Dunnington Castle, the other concerning Lieutenant General Cromwell:

The House being satisfied with the Earl of Manchester's Narrative concerning the Affairs of the Army at Dunnington Castle, there being nothing appearing to the contrary; it is Ordered, To communicate the same to the House of Commons.

And that Narrative concerning Lieutenant Colonel Cromwell; in regard he is a Member of the House of Commons, the House Resolved, To communicate the Narrative to them, at a Conference; and the Lord Wharton and the Lord North are appointed to read the Papers at the Conference.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Serjeant Whitfield and Mr. Serjeant Fynch:

To desire a Conference, so soon as it may stand with (fn. 2) their Conveniency, in the Painted Chamber, touching a Narrative concerning the Affairs of the Army at Donnington Castle.

2. Concerning a Narrative, wherein a Member of their House is concerned.

Examination concerning Griffith.

Ordered, That a Committee of Lords shall be appointed, to consider and examine concerning Mr. John Gryffith, and to send for such Witnesses as they shall think fit, and to report the same to the House; and to send to the House of Commons, to desire they would join a proportionable Committee, to examine the said Business.

Hereupon this House nominated these Lords following:

Message to the H. C. for Committees to meet about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

To let them know, that this House being informed of divers scandalous Carriages of Mr. John Griffyth, for the [ (fn. 3) Examination whereof] this House hath appointed a Committee; and their Lordships do desire (fn. 4) them to nominate a Committee of their House, to join with them in the said Examination.

The Earl of Northumb. reported from the Committee of both Kingdoms, "That they cannot be ready to give their Opinion to the Houses this Day, concerning the King's Paper and the other Paper referred to them, because the Committees that carried the Propositions to the King are to make a full Relation of the Business to them."

Hereupon the Houses gave them longer Time; and the Earl of Denbigh is directed to make his Relation to the Committee of both Kingdoms.

The States Ambassadors desire an Answer to their Papers, and a Pass to the King.

The Lord General informed this House, "That The States Ambassadors have desired a Pass, to go to the King; which he thought fit to acquaint the House with."

It was informed further, "That The States Ambassadors desire an Answer to their Papers delivered to the Houses formerly:" It is Ordered, To send to the House of Commons, to give Expedition to the Business, which remains with them.

Oldham freed from an Arrest.

Ordered, That an Order be sent to the Keeper of Newgate, to bring Ralph Oldham, now in Execution, forthwith before this House, who is to (fn. 4) be released of his Imprisonment, by Privilege of Parliament.

A Letter from the French Agent was read, as followeth:

Paper from Mons. Sabran, the French Minister, for an Audience.

"A Monsieur,

Monsieur le Baron De Gray de Warke, Orateur de la Maison des Seigneurs du Parlement d'Angleterre, À Londres.

"Monsieir,

"Ayant prie par Escript Mr. le Che'r De Flaming, Maistre des Ceremonies de M'rs du Parlement, pour fa' scavoir aux M'rs et Communes du dit Parlement l'Ordre que j'ay receu par Lettre expresse du Roy mon Maistre, de les voir et sçavoir de sa Part la finalle Resolution que sa Majesté desire, sur ce qu'elle m'a comandé de leur declarer par Escrit cy devant; il m'a respondu, que l'Addresse de ma Demande d'Audience doit estre presenté a ses Seigneurs de votre Bouche, et de votre Main; ce que n'ayant pratiqué ailleurs que par un Maistre des Ceremonies. J'execute neantmoins, puis qu'il m'a dict que c'est l'Ordre du Parlement d'Ang' ^re . Je suis prest de satisfaire a celuy que j'ay precis de sa Majesté, si tost que vous ou luy me ferez la Faveur, come je vous en prie d'obtenir, et me donner le Jour pour l'Audience, convenablement au Caractere que je porte: Sur quoy attendant votre Responce, je demeure,

"Monsieur,

Londres, ce 2 Dec're, 1644.

"Votre très humble serviteur,

"Sabran."

Ordinance for raising Money for the Scots Army.

Next, the Committee reported the Ordinance concerning Sixty-six Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence, to be raised for the Scotts Army, as fit to pass, with some small Amendments and a Proviso; which being read, this House agreed to the said Ordinance, with those Amendments and Proviso.

Ordinance to raise Money, for maintaining the Guards, &c. about London.

The Ordinance concerning the Guards and Forts (fn. 5) about the City was reported from the Committee, as fit to pass, with some Alterations; which were read: And this House agreed to the said Ordinance, with the Alterations.

Ordered, To be communicated to the House of Commons, to desire their Concurrence therein.

Enquiry to be made, concerning Mons. Sabran.

Ordered, That Sir Oliver Fleminge Knight, Master of the Ceremonies, do repair unto Monsieur Sabran, and know of him what Quality and Character he doth take upon (fn. 6) him, that so this House may give him Audience accordingly.

Committee to meet with One of the H. C. to enquire concerning the Business of Dunnington Castle.

Ordered, That these Lords following are appointed to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to examine the Business of the Army at Dunington Castle, and the Proceedings thereof:

Any Three.

The Speaker was to let them know at the Conference, That their Lordships have appointed Seven Lords, to examine the Business of the Army at Dunnington Castle, and the Proceedings thereof; and to desire the House of Commons would appoint a proportionable Number of their House, to join with them in the said Examination: For the latter Part, in regard it concerned a Member of their House, their Lordships have forborn to proceed in the Business, as being of a high Nature, until their Lordships had communicated the Business to them."

Answers from the H. C.

Mr. Serjeant Whitfield and Mr. Serjeant Fynch return with this Answer:

That the House of Commons will give a present Meeting, as is desired.

Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That to the Message concerning Mr. Gryffith, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Committee, who went to the King with the Propositions, to draw up a Narrative.

Ordered, That the Earl of Denbigh shall advise with the Committees of both Kingdoms appointed for the carrying of Propositions of Peace to His Majesty, to draw up a Relation of their Reception, Entertainment, and all other Passages, at Oxon, that may have Relation to that Employment.

The Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Message to the H. C. with Ordinances, &c.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

To deliver to them the Ordinance concerning Sixtysix Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence, and the Ordinance concerning raising of Monies to maintain Forts and Works of the City, and to desire their Concurrence in the Alterations; also to deliver the Petition and Letter concerning Mr. Sharpe (fn. 7) being Minister of Sundrich in Kent, and desire their Concurrence therein.

May to be attached.

Upon reading the Affidavits of Edward Goodwin and Israell Goodwin, against Mr. May: It is Ordered, That the said May shall be attached by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, and brought before this House, to answer the same. (Here enter the Affidavits.)

The Certificate of Mr. Obadiah Sedgwicke, Mr. Chambers, and Mr. Carryl, was read, concerning Mr. Webb.

(Here enter it.)

Webb, committed for Blasphemy, released on his Submission.

Also the Petition of Thomas Webb was read; shewing, That he, according to the Order of this House of the 23 Novemb. hath been examined by Three of the Divines of the Assembly mentioned in that Order, and hath answered to all the Articles which were charged upon him, as by the Certificate tendered to the House by the aforementioned Divines doth fully appear; from whom the Petitioner hath received much Information, and doth utterly disclaim and abhor all those Blasphemies and other Errors which were laid to his Charge; therefore he doth most humbly beseech this Honourable House, that he may be discharged out of the Messengers Hands, having no Means to subsist of himself in Durance."

Hereupon this House Ordered, That the said Thomas Webb shall be presently released of his present Restraint.

Archbishop of Cant's Attainder.

Ordered, That this House will take into Consideration To-morrow Morning the Matters of Fact concerning the Archbishop of Canterburye's Business.

To that Purpose, the Lords will review their Notes, and recollect their Memories, and see what Matters of Fact appear under the Archbishop's own Hand-writing.

Webb's Examination, concerning his blasphemons Doctrine.

"Whereas, by an Order of this Honourable House, bearing Date the 23th November, 1644, the Examination of Thomas Webb, about a Sermon preached in Queenes-streete about the 27th of September last, was referred to Dr. Burges, Mr. Calamy, Mr. Sedgwickc, Mr. Chambers, and Mr. Carrill:

"These are to certify this Honourable House, that, according to the Order abovesaid, the said Thomas Webb hath been examined Two several Days, and answereth as followeth; videlicet,

"To the First Article:

"1. He denies he said the Place, Gen. vi. 6. was not true.

"2. That he proposed it only as a Query, how that Place could stand with Rom. xi; and likewise now acknowledgeth both that, and all that is contained in the Books of the Old and New Testament, to be the Word and Truth of God.

"To the Second Article, he denies the Words charged.

"He said these Words, "That if any Man believes a Thing which is not according to the Witnesses in himself, he may believe a Lye as well as a Truth. He subjecteth not Faith to the Principles of Reason; and saith, That the Spirit of God never witnesseth any Thing within us contrary to the written Word of God."

"To the Third Article:

"1. He denies what is there charged; and First, acknowledgeth Created Spirits.

"2ly, That Prince of the Power of the Air, ruling in the Children of Disobedience, is the Devil, in Opposition to the true God.

To the Fourth Article:

"He denies the Words; acknowledging that he spake thus, "That Person who hath no other Object of Hope, or Ground of Rejoicing, but Christ; without Him, is in as sad a Condition as they who never heard of Christ;" to confirm which, he alledgeth that of the Apostle, 2 Cor. xiii. 5. Know ye not that Christ is in you, except you be Reprobates? He confesseth, That Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God, and took Flesh in the Fulness of Time of the Virgin Mary; that He was crucified for our Sins at Jerusalem; that He rose again from the Dead, and is the only Foundation of our Salvation, and Hope of Glory.

"He confesseth he spoke those Words in the latter Part of the Article, "A Deity united to our Humanity;" but now, being better informed, he disclaims that Expression, acknowledging that the Depth of that Mystery of our Union with Christ, and the forming of Christ in us, is beyond his present Apprehension; but promiseth to learn with Meekness and Sobriety.

"To the Fifth Article:

"He denieth the former Part; and acknowledgeth that the Righteousness of Christ is applied unto us, and that we, cloathed with it, are accepted of God: For the latter Part of the said Article, he confesseth that the Text alledged, Gal. vi. was by him misunderstood, and misapplied to the Business of Justification.

"To the Sixth Article:

"He denies the Doctrine contained in that Article; and saith, That God loves all the Workmanship of His Hands; yet that His Love to the Saints is a special Love, and incomprehensible.

"He denies those Words in the said Article, "That he knew no Difference between his Flesh and the Flesh of a Toad."

"To the Seventh Article:

"He denies the Words therein charged; and confesseth he spake only thus, "That every particular Thing in the World is ordered by the special Providence of God," which having spoken, One in the Company asked him, "Whether Drunkenness were ordered by a special Providence?" To which he then replied, "I affirm no such Thing."

"To the Eighth Article:

"He denieth it, and professeth, that he believes the Immortality of the Soul; and that every Man shall receive according to what he hath done in the Body, whether Good or Evil.

December 2d, 1644.

"Thomas Webb.

"Obadiah Sedgwick.

"Humfrey Chambers.

"Joseph Caril."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9^a cras.