House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 5 February 1692

Veneris, 5 die Februarii; 3° Gulielmi et Mariæ.

Prayers.

Committees.

ORDERED, That all Committees be revived.

Hudson's Bay Company.

Mr. Christy, according to Order, presented to the House a Bill for the more effectual Execution of a former Act concerning the Company trading to Hudson's Bay. And the same was received.

And the Bill was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

Clandestine Mortgages.

Mr. Waller reported from the Committee to whom the Bill to prevent Frauds by clandestine Mortgages, was committed, That they had made several Amendments to the Bill; which they had directed him to report to the House: And which he read in his Place, with the Coherence; and afterwards delivered in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read once throughout; and then a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That the Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed.

Seamen in West India Trade.

Sir Peter Colliton, according to Order, presents to the House a Bill for permitting English Ships to be navigated by Foreign Seamen, to and from the West Indies, during the War. And the same was received.

The Bill was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

Kinersley's Estate.

Mr. Cary reports from the Committee to whom the ingrossed Bill from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Thomas Kinersly to make a Lease or Leases for Payment of his Debts, was committed, That they had considered the Bill; and had directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendments.

Irish Forfeitures.

Ordered, That Sir Fran. Massam, Mr. Roberts, Sir John Bolles, Mr. Norreis, Mr. Beare, be added to the Committee appointed to receive Proposals for the raising Monies upon the Forfeitures of Irish Estates, and for inquiring into the Disposals of Irish Forfeitures.

Lords desire a Conference.

A Message from the Lords, by Sir Miles Cooke and Sir James Astry;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords do desire a Conference with this House, this Morning at Eleven of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Resolved, That this House doth agree to a Conference with the Lords, as they desire.

And the Messengers were called in again; and Mr. Speaker acquainted them therewith.

Ordered, That the Members who managed the last Conference, do manage this Conference.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Major General Trelawny have Leave to go into the Country, upon extraordinary Occasions.

Bankrupts.

A Petition of Sir John Massam, Baronet, and Sir Robert Massam, Knight, was read; setting forth, That the Petitioners in Sir Robert Viner's Life-time, obtained Judgment against him, and executed an Elegit upon his Estate in Middlesex, for a real Debt, lent above Twenty Years past: and have recovered Judgment in Ejectment, and are in full and quiet Possession of the Premises; and there is now about Two thousand Pounds remaining behind of the Petitioner's Debt; which is well secured by the Laws hitherto made: But there being a Bill relating to Bankrupts brought into this House, for compelling Creditors to accept of such a Composition as the major Part shall agree unto; and the Executor of Sir Robert Viner designing to take Advantage thereof, and to conclude the Petitioner thereby, and so to destroy the Petitioners Security, to the Petitioners great Prejudice; and praying, That they might be heard by their Counsel, at the Bar of this House, before the said Bill be ingrossed; to shew Reasons against the same.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the said Petition be referred to the Committee to whom the Bill for the better Discovery, and more equal Distribution of Bankrupts Estates, is committed.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Sir John Knight have Leave to go into the Country for Three Weeks, for Recovery of his Health.

Duchy of Cornwall Leasing.

A Bill to enable their Majesties to make Leases of the Duchy of Cornewall, was read the Second time.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Mr. Boscowen, Sir Sam. Barnadiston, Mr. Travers, Mr. Harcourt, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Arnald, Mr. Christy, Sir Wm. Honywood, Sir John Moreton, Sir Hen. Ashurst, Mr. Bowyer, Mr. Henly, Sir Rich. Onslow, Sir Rob. Cotton, Sir Rob. Henly, Mr. Goldwell, Colonel Titus, Mr. Cary, Sir Jon. Jenings, Mr. Colt, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Serjeant Tremaine, Mr. Gray, Lord Powlett, Mr. Ryder, Mr. Tilney, Sir Richard Temple, Sir Walter Young, Sir Jervas Elwes, Sir John Bolls, Mr. Biddolph, Mr. Solicitor General, and the Commissioners of the Treasury, who are Members of the House, and all the Members that serve for the County of Cornwall and Devon: And they are to meet this Afternoon, at Four a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber.

Punishment of Offenders.

Then the House proceeded to take into their Consideration the Amendment, made by the Lords, to the Amendments, made by this House to a Bill, intituled, An Act to take away Clergy from some Offenders, and to bring others to Punishment.

And the same were read; and are as followeth; viz.

Press 1, Line 31, after "likewise," add "that is to say, shall be burnt in the Hand, by the Gaoler, in open Court; and further be kept in Prison, for such time as the Justices in their Discretion shall think fit; so as the same do not exceed One Year's Imprisonment."

The said Amendment, being read a Second time, was upon the Question put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Ordered, That Mr. Solicitor General do carry the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them, That this House hath agreed to the said Amendment.

Commissioners of Accompts.

Then the Managers appointed went to the Conference:

And being returned;

Sir Joseph Tredenham reports, That they had attended the said Conference: And that the Lord Rochester managed the Conference on the Part of the Lords; and acquainted them, That the Lords had desired this Conference, for the Continuance of the good Correspondence between the Two Houses: And that the Lords were not satisfied with the Reasons given by this House touching the Amendments to the Bill, intituled, An additional Act for appointing and enabling Commissioners to examine, take, and state the publick Accompts of the Kingdom: And that they do insist on all their Amendments to the Bill: And that, in answer to the Reasons given by this House against the said Amendments, the Lords gave the Reasons following; viz.

To the First and Second Reasons offered by the Commons, the Lords answer, That the Commissioners named by the Commons having already made some Progress in the stating the Accompts; the naming of some new ones can be of no Prejudice to the perfecting that Work; the Nature of taking and stating Accompts being such, that new Men, being joined with others, may be very capable of going on with the Remainder of that Work.

The Lords do agree, That, in the Act passed in the Nineteenth of King Charles the Second, for taking Accompts, the Commissioners thereby constituted were named by the Commons; and the Lords did agree to it, both because they approved of the Number and Quality of the Persons, and because, they being not Members of the House of Commons, they might always be sent for at the Pleasure of the Lords, to explain any Matters relating to those Accompts: But the Lords having now had Experience by the last Act, which constituted no Commissioners but only such as were of the House of Commons, that their Lordships cannot have those Commissioners at any time before them to answer such Questions, or explain such Doubts as their Lordships may have Occasion to inquire into; or even to intimate such Points as seem to have been omitted, either in the Accompts, or the Observations made thereupon; is one very great Reason, Why the Lords have found it necessary to name such in this Bill, as their Lordships may, from time to time, receive Informations from; without which, their Lordships examining into the Accompts will prove defective and dilatory.

To the Third and Fourth Reasons their Lordships reply, That they are unwilling to enter into a Dispute with the Commons, What is the proper Work of either House, in relation to the granting Supplies to the Crown, or taking or examining the Accompts thereof: because they would avoid any Controversies of that Kind with the House of Commons, especially at this time; having by Experience found, that such Debates have frequently been attended with ill Consequences to the Publick: But upon this Occasion, their Lordships conceive it is very plain, That since this Bill provides, that the Accompts shall be laid before the Lords, it must be likewise owned, that it is the proper Work of this House to examine them. And by no means can their Lordships acquiesce in the Reason given by the House of Commons, That, they being the Representatives of all the Commons, no Commoner can be named but by them; because That would, by the same Parity of Reason deprive their Lordships of the Power of assigning Counsel to any Man impeached by the House of Commons; which, in Cases of Misdemeanor, they have always done: And, by the late Bill for regulating Tryals, in Cases of Treasons, it was agreed by both Houses, That Counsel should be allowed in Cases of Treason, even upon Impeachments: Which Counsel must have been assigned by the Lords, and out of Commoners.

Lastly, The House of Lords canot allow the Disposition, as well as Granting, of Money by Act of Parliament, to have been solely in the House of Commons; and much less can their Lordships consent, That the Lords have not always had a Right of naming any Persons to be employed in the Publick Service by Act of Parliament, and assigning them such Salary for their Pains out of the Exchequer, as should be agreed on in that Act of Parliament: And, for these Reasons, their Lordships do insist on all their Amendments to the said Bill.

And, after Consideration had of the said Report,

It was Resolved, That this House doth insist upon their Disagreement with the Lords, in the Amendments to the said Bill.

Resolved, That a free Conference be desired with the Lords, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference.

Ordered, That the Members who managed the said Conference, do meet this Afternoon at Four a Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber; and prepare for the said Conference.

Members summoned.

Ordered, That the Serjeant at Arms do go into Westminster Hall, and the Court of Requests, and to the several Bars; and summon the Members to attend the Service of the House immediately.

Which he did do.

And being returned;

Supply Bill; Irish Forfeitures.

The House proceeded to take into Consideration the Report, Yesterday, of the Amendments to the Bill for vesting the Forfeited Estates in Ireland in their Majesties, to be applied to the Use of the War.

And several of them were read a Second time, one by one; and, upon the Question severally put thereupon, were agreed unto by the House.

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Committee in the Amendment, to leave out the Clause, for vesting Estates Tail in their Majesties, as a Fee Simple;

The House divided.

The Noes go forth.

So it passed in the Negative.

Ordered, That the further Consideration of the said Report be adjourned until Monday Morning next, at Eleven of the Clock; and nothing to intervene.

Corresponding with their Majesties Enemies.

A Message from the Lords, by Mr. Justice Gregory and Mr. Baron Powell;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have passed a Bill, intituled, An Act against corresponding with their Majesties Enemies: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

And then the Messengers withdrew.

Supply Bill; Poll Tax.

Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow Morning, after the Committee of the whole House hath sat upon the Bill for establishing an East India Company, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further of the Bill for a Quarterly Poll.

London Orphans.

Resolved, That the House will, upon Tuesday Morning next, at Eleven of the Clock, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of further Ways to satisfy the Debts due to the Orphans of the City of London.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight a Clock.