Appendix: poor laws, 1 March 1831

Die Martis, 1° Martii 1831.

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

The Reverend Edmund Dawson is called in, and examined as follows:

You are a Clergyman in the Parish of Alford, in Lincolnshire?

I am.

In what Part of Lincolnshire?

A Part of Lindsey, in the Hundred of Calceworth, on the Eastern Side of the County.

Have you been many Years resident in that Parish?

About Twenty.

Have you turned your Attention to the Administration of the Poor Laws during that Period?

As much as I could; I have never been absent from a single Vestry for the Twenty Years, when I could attend, whether Public or Select.

What are the Poor Rates in your Parish?

They have varied in different Years; at present about 8s. in the Pound.

Is that on the Rack Rent?

No; I cannot exactly say the Proportion; but it is not more than Two Thirds of the real Value.

What were the Poor Rates when you first came to that Parish?

I cannot exactly recollect. I came to reside there in the Year 1810. I think they were rather higher at that Period; they were at that Time as high or higher than they are now; but if I had known I should be asked that Question I would have been prepared.

Are there any antecedent Periods at which you can state the Rates in your Parish?

They are now about 8s. in the Pound, and they have been as much as 9s. and I have been told as much as 11s. in the Pound.

Can you state the Number of Acres in your Parish?

I have asked the Churchwarden and Assistant Overseer to take an Account of the Acres, and they stated them to be 1,050.

Can you state what was the Population in the Year 1821?

If I recollect rightly, 1,169 in 1811, and in 1821 it was 1,506. I took the Population myself at both those Periods.

Has that Population continued to increase since that Time?

I cannot exactly say whether it has or not; I think it has been perhaps nearly stationary.

Is there any Manufactory carried on in the Parish?

Candle-making is carried on; that is all, except Tailors and Shoemakers.

There is no regular Manufacture, like Cotton Mills?

No.

Is it an Agricultural Parish?

I consider it so.

What are the Wages of Labour in that Parish?

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They vary very much. I have frequently employed Labourers, and have given them 1s. 6d. a Day; last Winter I gave them 2s.; and I have had some few the last Winter that I paid 2s. to.

The Wages of Labour vary from 1s. 6d. to 2s. a Day?

Sometimes considerably under that. When I gave them 2s. some others, I believe, were giving only 1s. 6d.

Is there any Allowance made to the poor People from the Rates, in addition to their Wages?

In this Way: our Assistant Overseer has given them Work by the Piece, which very likely will not pay the Labourers the full Amount of what he will pay them; he allows them 2s. a Day, and they perhaps will not earn more than 1s. 8d.

Do the Labourers employed by the Farmers receive any Payment, in addition to their Wages, from the Parish Rates?

I am not aware of any thing of the kind at the present Time, further than indirectly in the Way I have stated. When the Assistant Overseer takes a Piece of Work, he takes it at something less than it really ought to be, and he employs the Labourers at so much a Day, giving them the proper Wages if they earn more than 2s. a Day, which is the Price of Labour; they would have the Benefit of what they earned more, and if they earn less the Parish takes the Loss.

That extends only to Labourers who are out of Employment, and wholly dependent upon Parish Employment?

It applies exclusively to those who want either Relief in Money or Employment.

Do those who want Money or Employment receive any Addition to their Wages out of the Parish Rates?

We have nothing of that kind.

Is it the Custom to make up the Wages of Labour out of the Poor's Rate, to enable the Labourer to subsist his Family?

I am not aware of any Assistance given to them when they are able-bodied Labourers in full Employment.

If a Man had Twelve Children, would the Parish allow him any thing to assist in maintaining those Children?

To answer that Question, and explain to the Committee the view we take of that, we allow it in an indirect Way. When a Man has more Children than he can maintain by his Labour we put them out to Cottagers or small Farmers, and he has the full Benefit of his Wages afterwards. Sometimes we put them out at 1s. a Week, and sometimes at 2s. a Week. We have Two or Three Meetings to invite the Cottagers or small Farmers to come and offer to take them; we assemble them in a Room, and select the best Places we can for them, and allow sometimes as high as 2s. a Week, sometimes 1s. 6d. or whatever we can agree to. The People who take them agree in some instances to clothe them, and in other instances the Parish agree to clothe them. Then the Labourer, whatever he can earn, has the Benefit of that for his own Family after we have put his Children out, if he has a large Family, more than he can maintain; but we do not do it in the Way of giving them Money from the Rates.

You do not give Flour or any thing of that kind?

No.

Is there any Distinction made between the Wages of the married and the single Labourer, or is he paid in proportion to the Value of his Work?

There is some Distinction made in respect of Families when they are employed by the Parish; not, that I am aware of, when they are employed by other Persons. When they want Employment, and the Parish takes a Man into Employment upon the Road, they take into account what his Wife can earn, and what the rest can earn, and he has as much as will make up 9s. or 10s. a Week, or, if he has a large Family, 12s. a Week.

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Have you a regular Scale of Allowance in proportion to the Number of the Family?

In order that I might not make a Mistake, I asked the Assistant Overseer, particularly, the Distinction. His Calculation is to let those who have small Families have about 9s. a Week; if he finds that they earn 4s. or 5s. in another Way he allows them only so much as, with what they earn elsewhere, will make up somewhere about 9s. or 12s. per Week; he allows them therefore, in some instances, only 4s. or 5s. a Week when working on the Roads.

Whatever the Quantity of Work they do?

They are in those Cases generally employed upon the Road.

A Man with a large Family, then, is just as well off as a Man with a small one?

He has 12s. a Week; and a Man with a small one not more than 9s. or less.

Have you many Persons out of Work in that Parish?

We have several employed by the Parish now.

How many?

I cannot exactly say; I have seen Three or Four.

How many have been employed by the Parish during any Period of the Winter?

There may have been as many as Six or Seven; I speak rather by Conjecture than Certainty; more than there are now.

What are the Rents paid by them for Cottages in your Parish?

They vary very much according to the Quality or Situation of the House; we take a Number of Houses for the Use of the Poor on account of the Parish.

Are the Committee to understand that you provide the Labourers with Houses?

A certain Number we provide with Houses; we have taken some at the Rate of about 35s. to 40s. each Tenement, and others as high as 3l. 10s.

Do you give those Houses to Persons with large Families, or in what Manner do you decide upon the Individuals for whom you are thus to provide?

We let those have Houses Rent-free that we suppose are unable altogether to pay their Rents; that is the Criterion we go upon: if we think there is a probability of their being able to pay their Rents, we refuse the Houses.

Do you mean by their not having the Ability to pay their Rents, that they are impotent Poor, who want Relief, or that they are able-bodied Poor who do not earn sufficient Money to support themselves and to pay their Rents?

They are either impotent Poor, or Poor who have such large Families that their Earnings, though good, are not sufficient to maintain them and to pay their Rents and Rates.

To whom do the Cottages in your Parish belong principally?

To a Variety of Proprietors; there is no particular Proprietor; we take them where we have an Opportunity. The Parish is divided into a great Number of Freeholds.

What Class of Persons?

The Lord of the Manor, and a Lady who has a considerable Property in the Parish, and small Proprietors who have Houses.

Do you mean Carpenters and others who have built those Cottages on Speculation?

No; there are very few which have been built on Speculation; they have been built some Time ago for the Profit to be obtained by letting them.

Are there any Gardens attached to the Cottages?

No; in very few instances; I scarcely recollect any Gardens attached of any Value.

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Have the Labourers any Means of hiring Land for the Purpose of Cultivation?

No, except under great Disadvantages.

Has any System been adopted in your Parish of enabling them to hire Allotments of Land?

About Twelve Months ago we took Five Acres of Land in a Place called The Little West Field, close to the Town, excellent Land, at the Rate of 40s. an Acre; we have divided that among such of the Poor as have large Families and are most likely to need Assistance, and who did need Assistance, either directly or indirectly. The largest Quantity we allowed of that small Field was a Rood, and in some Instances they had about Half a Rood, or a little more. The Field did not divide exactly into Roods and Half Roods.

Have you many of those Individuals who pay Rent for their Land?

We charge them 10s. a Rood, and they pay Tithes, and nothing more in the Way of Payment; the Rates of every Description are paid by the Parish, and allowed to them.

What are the Tithes?

I cannot exactly say; but when I put that before a Meeting of Farmers and others who were assembled, they said they thought 8s. an Acre perhaps about a fair Equivalent for that Land; about 2s. a Rood.

Have you found that any material Improvement has been effected in the Condition of those Labourers by the Possession of those Allotments of Land?

There is nothing that ever we have done that has been so beneficial and so satisfactory to the Poor as letting them have this Land.

Have you found that your Rates this Year have been lower in consequence?

It has very recently come into Operation; the first Crop they had came in in the Autumn; it has bettered their Condition since they got it. The Rates are in fact, I consider, virtually reduced in consequence of it; but there was an Expence of 30£. or more, in fencing and preparing the Five Acres for the Occupation of the Labourers; and this last Year we have sent about 20 or 21 Individuals to America, which has cost us from 130£. to 140£.; and we have taken another Field of Ten Acres and a Half, upon which, before the Termination of the present Year, we shall expend, in under-draining and fencing, and putting down Gates, I think from 30£. to 40£. more; and after all the Assistant Overseer supposes we shall not pay more than 6d. or 1s. in the Pound additional in consequence of this; and if we had had none of these Expences our Rates would have been actually less than they were, and the Poor in a better Condition than they have been since I have been in that Parish. The Rates this Year may be a little higher in consequence of those extra Expences.

Have you prescribed any Mode of Cultivation to the Persons to whom you have made those small Allotments?

We have a Number of Rules and Regulations for the Management of the Land.

Have you got a Copy of those Rules with you?

I have not, but I can state the Substance of the Rules; they are to manage the Land in a proper Manner, and have it properly manured.

State what you consider to be a proper Manner?

In regard to digging and managing; we do not limit them to any particular Crop.

What Quantity of Manure do you prescribe to be put on?

Sufficient; the exact Quantity is not fixed.

In what Manner have they cultivated the Land this Year?

With Spade Husbandry.

What Crops have they put on?

Principally Potatoes.

What has been the Produce?

From 1,200 to 1,600 Pecks per Acre.

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Is the Land capable of continuing to bear those Crops?

I think, with proper Management, Winter digging, and proper manuring, it will do.

What is the Price of Potatoes in your Neighbourhood?

They vary from 6d. to 4d. a Peck.

Had that Land been in Cultivation before?

Yes.

In what Cultivation?

Some Part of it, I imagine, had been planted with Potatoes; I have seen it with Barley upon it; it has always been in Cultivation; it has never been otherwise since I recollect.

You have stated that you have sent Twenty or Twenty-one Persons to America this Year; of what Class of Persons were they?

There were Two Families of Agricultural Labourers; another was a Carpenter or Wheelwright: there were Three Families.

There were only Three Men sent?

And their Wives and Families; the Number of their Families altogether amounted to Twenty-one.

Were those Persons willing to go, or was any Persuasion used?

They were very desirous to go.

Did they go to the United States or to the British Colonies?

They went to New York.

In your Opinion, are the Labourers now remaining in the Parish more than sufficient to carry on the Cultivation of the Soil?

Very little. If they cultivate the Soil and manage it as it ought to be, I think that the Parish and the Neighbourhood could find Employment for the Number we have of industrious able-bodied Labourers; adding to it the Employment which they would have of Land Allotments, which they are likely to have in addition to those they already have, I think there would be very little surplus Population.

Can you state the several Items of Charge of Emigration of the Individuals sent to America?

I cannot.

From what Port did they sail?

From Hull.

How far is that from you?

About Fifty Miles.

Did you give them any Money to start in the World, or did they go dependent on their own Exertions?

They went principally dependent upon themselves.

Have any Reports been received from them?

Yes; we had a very full and very satisfactory Statement from them, dated from a Place called Utica.

Do they state what their Wages are in that Country?

One who went with the same Party was a Printer, and I understand he gets 2l. a Week as Printer. The Wages of the others are principally paid in Kind, and that the Pay is a Tenth Part of the Quantity of the Produce that they thrash out. One, a Labourer who is employed in thrashing Corn, has a Tenth Part of that he thrashes out as his Wages. They all express themselves very well satisfied with the Change which has taken place.

Had those Persons any Resources of their own at starting?

They had very little. One Man who went had a Family of Six Children, and his Wife's Father gave him 10£. to be paid to him when he landed in America. Some others might by one means or other have a few Pounds; but this was the largest Sum, I think, that any of them had.

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Were they Men of good or bad Character?

Two of them we considered very bad ones.

Are there any more Persons in your Parish anxious to emigrate?

One Man who has a large Family was anxious to emigrate a little while ago, but his Wife will not agree to it; there is a stout young Man, who is not a very good Labourer, and we think of his going next Year, it being his Wish; and if he perseveres in expressing that Wish (having a Wife and only One Child) we think it will be as well to send them, because if his Family increases he will not be able to maintain them here.

Do you find that the good Labourers are anxious to go?

I do not recollect one that I could say was a real good Labourer who has expressed a Wish to go.

You were once Clergyman of a Parish in Northumberland, were you not?

I was Clergyman of the Parish of Ellingham, in Northumberland.

Did you attend much to the Administration of the Poor Laws at that Time?

There was very very little to do; I recollect attending a Meeting at Easter on something of that kind, but I heard very little Conversation on the Subject of the Poor at that Time.

Had you any Opportunity of observing the Difference between the Condition of the Poor in Northumberland and in Lincolnshire?

I consider the Condition of the Poor in Northumberland to be much more satisfactory than I find it in Lincolnshire generally.

Is Fuel cheaper in Northumberland than in the Part of Lincolnshire in which you reside?

Much cheaper. I can mention one particular Circumstance, which will put the Committee into Possession of a distinct Case: when I had the Curacy of Ellingham, the Glebe Farm was let to a Tenant on condition that he should lead me all the Coals I might want in the Vicarage House, and I was to pay for the Coals; there was a Coal Pit; it was not a mountainous Country, but a Country having an Inclined Plane; and on the Top or nearly so of that Inclined Plane there were several Pits, at the Distance of Two or Three Miles; they never measured by the Strike or Bushel, but took a Cart and Two Horses; and he had as many Coals as a Cart and Two Horses could bring for 2s. 6d.

What is the Price of Fuel in the Parish where you now reside?

We have the Sunderland Coal principally: the Price at the Sea where it is landed is 28s. a Chaldron, and the Carriage is 5s. a Chaldron to my House, and if they go a little further the Lading is 6s. a Chaldron.

Do the poor People burn Coal principally?

They burn Coal and Sticks.

They have no Peat?

No, they have not.

Are there any other Circumstances to which you attribute the superior Condition of the Northumberland Labourers over that of the Lincolnshire?

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It was customary in that Parish to employ all the Children. I did not feel that Interest, and certainly, at that Time, did not take that Notice of the Condition of the Poor which I have done of late Years; but living amongst the principal Farmers, and having certain Circumstances almost pressed upon my Attention, I cannot but remember some few of them; and I recollect one principal Farmer observing, that as soon as the Children were able to go out and earn a Penny, they had that Penny, and they kept them working upon the Farms; when they were worth Two-pence they had that; and there were none, as far as I can recollect, but what could earn something as soon as they were capable of going out; and the large Farmers used to have Bailiffs who attended to the Labourers. The best Work done by the Men in Lincolnshire, that is, hoeing Turnips, was done by the Women and Children in Northumberland. There was one Thing which had a good Effect, as I conceive, and which cost very little Money-they used to have a Collection on the Sundays; not every Sunday, perhaps, if it was Sacrament Day or the Sidesman was absent; but they had a Collection generally for the Benefit of the Poor; this Collection was distributed by the Clergyman among those who had no Parish Relief, and, to the best of my Recollection, generally to those Poor who attended the Church; and this had a very excellent Effect in exciting a Spirit of Independence; they thought it an Honour to receive that, when it would have been a Degradation to them to come to the Parish for Relief. What Sum remained (I wished to have a pretty good Sum remaining at Christmas) was then distributed in Proportion to the Families (called together in Church) and their Wants. I conceived the Benefit resulting very far beyond the Amount of the Money distributed.

What was the Amount of the Sunday Collections in Northumberland?

They were not large. It is now about Six or Seven and twenty Years ago. I recollect that most of the Farmers gave a Trifle every Sunday.

In your Opinion, are the Poor of your Parish more distressed now than they were when you first came to reside amongst them?

They are not at the present Moment. I think, from adopting a different System, that their Condition is as good, or better, than I recollect it before, by providing them Employment and allotting them Land. I think that they are better off just now than when I first came.

Has any Enclosure taken place in your Parish?

There is a great Want of Enclosure; there are Two open Arable Fields which are unenclosed.

Has any considerable Quantity of Waste been brought into Cultivation since you have resided in the Parish?

I do not recollect any, unless it is a Strip by the Side of the Road.

In that Part of Northumberland in which you resided were Wages paid in Kind or paid in Money?

I recollect nothing but Money myself; I have employed Labourers myself, and I have paid them in Money. So far as I recollect at this Distance of Time, (I may not be exactly correct,) they used to have what they called Bondagers, a Description of confined Labourers; they used to have a certain Quantity of Corn or Potatoes, or a Cow, or something or other which was considered as Part of Wages; but the Day Labourers, so far as I know, received Money.

Have the Farms in your Parish been increased in Size?

I should suppose there has been a great Diminution of Cottages and small Farms. I recollect only One or Two that have been demolished since I came into it; one small Farm has been laid to another which was a larger Farm. There have been a considerable Number that have, within the last Sixty Years, been demolished; as many as Eleven, according to the Report of the Assistant Overseer.

Do you attribute the depressed Condition of the Labourers very much to the Practice of laying small Farms into large?

The great Cause of the Distress I consider to be attributable to the Demolition of Cottages and the Accumulation of Farms.

At what Time are Servants hired in your Parish?

They used to be hired before May Day or at May Day at the Statute; at present there is no hiring of Men Servants until after May Day; this does not affect the Women so much as the Men. The Chief Constable stated to me that it was of no Use having a Statute at all for the hiring Men Servants before May Day.

The Men find considerable Difficulty in getting Service from the Fear of burdening the Parishes with Settlement?

Yes. Many of the Parishes make it a Rule not to hire 'till after May Day, that so they may not serve a Year.

Do you conceive that Practice to be injurious to the Labourers in respect of Morals and of pecuniary Benefits?

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It is my Opinion that it is very injurious both to Morals and the Benefit, in every respect, of Labourers, to be kept at the End of the Year travelling from one Statute to another, seeking Places, sometimes having no Home of their own to go to, expending their Money; it is attended with much Loss to the Labourers, and leads to a State of Demoralization among them.

Is it not the Usage in many Parts of Lincolnshire to rent Land with the Cottages?

There are some Cottages now which have Land; but the System has been to decrease Cottages, not to increase them.

Has it been the general Practice in Lincolnshire to let Land to Cottagers?

Not in the Part with which I am acquainted.

How is that Circumstance with respect to the Cottagers in Northumberland?

I cannot exactly say how it was; I do not recollect whether they had or had not Land; but I did not attend then so much to the Subject as I do now. The only Thing that I recollect with regard to Labourers having Land was, that the Squire of the Parish let them have Ten or Twelve Acres, on which a certain Number of Labourers had a Cow each depastured during the Summer; and there was another Close from which they obtained Hay to winter the Cow: they had this, I understood, at a very moderate Rate, and it was of great Use to them. It was not a populous Parish.

Did that supply a considerable Proportion of the Labourers in that Parish?

I cannot say.

What is the habit in Lincolnshire with respect to employing the Labourers as Domestic Servants?

They have them both Ways; but the Number of Domestic Servants has perhaps decreased.

What is your Opinion as to that Alteration, whether it is conducive to the Comfort and the orderly Conduct of Labourers?

I think if the Domestic Servants were increased it would be an Advantage.

Do you think they would be likely to continue unmarried longer?

I think they would.

Are you a Magistrate?

I am not.

Does it occur to you that there could be any Alteration made in the Law of Settlement which would be beneficial to the Labourers?

I think it would be a considerable Advantage to Labourers if the Law of Settlement could be extended from 10l. to a larger Sum; that would enable a Cottager to have a sufficient Quantity of Land, without enabling him to gain a Settlement; it would tend to increase the building of Cottages for the Labourers. Suppose a Labourer has a Cottage and Six Acres of Land, and he happens to be in Distress, (or any of his Family to become chargeable before he has obtained a Settlement in his own Right,) there is a Dispute whether he belongs to that Parish or to the one from which he came. If the Amount were sufficiently increased, the Owner of Landed Property would not have the same Fear of the Extension of the Number of such Cottages.

What is your Opinion with respect to the Law of Settlement as it applies to the gaining a Settlement by Service, whether the Period should be extended?

I think that some Alteration, under existing Circumstances, is absolutely necessary: either to have a shorter Period, or to have no Settlement at all by Hiring and Service.

Do you make that Observation on account of the Litigation which takes place?

Yes, and on account of the System of the Farmers to omit hiring 'till after May Day. The Men ramble about the Country; they cannot get Employment as Labourers, and they are therefore completely in a disorganized State 'till they do meet with Places.

Do you think it would be desirable to make it easier for them to gain Settlements by Hiring and Service, or to make it more difficult for them?

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I think perhaps it would be best to shorten it; to make it Six Months, or put it in some Form that would enable them to gain a Settlement with less Difficulty. I have not turned that over in my Mind so as to come to a very conclusive Opinion, but I hear the Farmers who are not interested in the Matter say that a Month or Two Months should gain a Settlement, and that then they would not hesitate hiring them; but I am not competent, without further Consideration, to give an Opinion upon this Question.

Have you turned your Attention at all to the Effects of the Bastardy Laws?

Yes; we have had a great deal of Expence attending them. It is one of our standing Rules, if a Person leaves his Family chargeable on the Parish, or another Person does not obey the Laws of Bastardy, to regard no Expence; we will have them if we follow them from one End of the Kingdom to another. It is with great Difficulty I have persuaded the Parish to come into that, as the most economical System. We advertize them, and take every Means to have them brought forward. We formerly had very great Inconvenience this Way, but we have now hardly any refractory Subjects. Many Parishes will not go to the Expence. There is no Allowance made to the Parish for any Expences which may be incurred in going to demand the Payment of Arrears; and the Practice is, for the Demand to be made personally by the Overseer or Assistant Overseer, and 'till a Warrant is issued no Expences are allowed; therefore it frequently happens that a great deal of Expence is incurred before any thing can be returned to the Parish; and in some Cases, when the Parish has made a Demand, the Party may go into another Part of the Kingdom, so that they cannot take him at all. Many Parishes which have not the same Resolution (and that is a common Case) suffer a very heavy Incumbrance in consequence of the defective State of the Law of Bastardy. The Rule, I conceive, ought to be that an Order of Quarter Sessions should be considered as a perpetual Demand, without the Necessity of a Renewal.

Are you not of Opinion, that, in consequence of the Measures to which you have just alluded, Marriages take place which otherwise would not?

In consequence of following up and punishing the putative Father, we have had very few Cases, that I recollect, where they did marry decidedly against their Inclinations.

Does it not tend to promote Marriage?

I do not know that it does; I cannot say that it does; I have known few Cases of their marrying on that Account.

Do you conceive that the Means of the Farmers generally have diminished in your Neighbourhood?

The Rot in Sheep has affected them lately; that has reduced their Property, and the Value of Property has in many Instances been very much reduced since the Peace. I think their Property is not so good now as it was.

Is draining carried on to any great Extent?

They are doing a great deal this Winter.

Are you near the Fen Country?

No; the Part of the Country I live in is called the Middle Marsh. One of my Parishioners had 200 Sheep that went in a Field that wants enclosing, and they were destroyed by the Rot. The only Thing which prevents its Enclosure is the serious Expence of the Bill. I think every Sheep which has gone in those Fields during the last Summer has been attacked by Rot. One Person has lost every Sheep he had, and this entirely from the Want, I conceive, of a proper Drainage, &c. I keep a few Sheep myself; I have carefully under-drained, and my Sheep have done very well.

You say that you have not a great many Labourers out of Employment in the Winter-time?

We have not this Winter. Several Circumstances have contributed to give Employment to the Labourers. An improved System is beginning to work with regard to Land Allotments. In order to provide Labour we united the Office of Boon Master or Surveyor of the Highways with that of Assistant Overseer; he was thus enabled to supply Applicants for Relief with Work upon the Roads, in breaking Stones, &c.

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Is that profitable Work?

Yes; for he must otherwise hire Labourers.

What are the Committee to understand by Boon Master?

It is another Term for Surveyor of the Highways.

Have you any Want of Hands during the Harvest?

I think there is no Want.

Have any Irish Labourers come to your Parish?

Yes, a considerable Number have come, to the great Injury of our Labourers. I have spoken to some of our Labourers who were well acquainted with the Circumstance of the Irish attending to do the Harvest Work, and I desired them to speak nothing but the Truth, and not to exaggerate; and I took down what they said to me in Writing, and I have it with their Names or Marks affixed. Three of them stated, "that during the late Harvest, and in some Degree during several preceding Harvests, they have found a great Falling-off, both in Price and Employment, in consequence of the vast Influx of Irish Labourers. James Goodwin stated, that though he diligently went in search of Work for several Days, he earned no more than 8s. The said J. D. and S. J. state that they earned less Money during the late Harvest, per Week, than either before or immediately after; that the said Persons have seen Eight or Ten Labourers earnestly applying for Employment to Farmers, and been refused, while as many or more Irishmen were employed in their Presence. The said Persons further state, that they formerly were enabled by the Harvest to pay off Debts contracted in the Winter; this they can no longer do. The said Persons also state, that mowing and tying cost 7s. per Acre; shearing, 9s. per Acre; mowing the Stubble after shearing, from 2s. to 2s. 6d.; shearing, 11s.; mowing, 7s.; that Half the Labourers in this Part were not half employed during last Harvest; that such has been partly the Case during the last Three or Four Harvests; and that there are Plenty of Hands to get the Harvest in without any Assistance from Abroad." The Men assured me that this was strictly and perfectly true. The Day after, February 26th, I had Two Labourers ditching for me; I asked them whether they knew any thing with respect to the Irish getting Work; they said they did. I asked them with respect to the Circumstances, and I took down their Account, which is the following: "Alford, 26th February 1831. We, T.G. of Alford, and G. W. of Saleby, Labourers, hereby certify, that the Statement of J. G., S. J. and J. D. has been read to us; that our own Experience enables us to bear witness to its Truth: that we travelled during the last Harvest, the former into the West Fen for Five Days, and that he only obtained Three badly-paid Days Works; that the latter went upon the Wolds for Three Days, and could obtain no Work whatever; that we every where saw Numbers of Irish Labourers employed in the Harvest Fields; and great Numbers of English Labourers who were on the Tramp in search of Work, and who, like ourselves, could not obtain it." That which is referred to is the Statement which I have just read to your Lordships. There is another Statement of a Tenant who occupies a Rood of Land, who was one of those who gave me this Account with respect to the Irish. He sold his Crop before it was ripe; I think he sold his Rood for 3£. 10s.; it was considered an extremely bad Price for it, and upon that Account we made a standing Rule that no Labourer should be allowed to dispose of his Crop 'till it was fit for Use; he said he would take care not to repeat it; that his Crop was worth much more than he sold it for. I asked him how far his Crop had paid this Year, and he made this Statement: "That he had about a Rood and a Half of Land; that this Land paid him full 5s. a Day for every Day that he worked upon it the last Year; but it would have paid him more if he had not sold it so badly."

What would the Rent of that Land have been, under other Circumstances, let to the Farmer?

We charge them exactly the same the great Farmer pays; we take it of the Steward of a Lady who has acted always very generously towards us; he lets us have it at the same Rate as he lets it to the large Farmers; he contrived to make the large Farmer a sort of Equivalent in some other Way.

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Do you know what Quantity of Wheat such Land has produced and is capable of producing?

I should think about Four Quarters.

Were the Men who made the Depositions as to Irish Labour steady Men?

One of them is one of the most practical and experienced Labourers we have, and the others are as respectable Labourers as the Generality of Labourers are; but from the general Report and Opinion of the Country, I could not have drawn any other Report than that which is stated in that Paper.

Do you know at what Wages the Irish Labourers engage to work?

I do not; they beat down the Wages.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

The Right Honourable The Earl Stanhope, a Member of the Committee, is examined as follows:

Has your Lordship turned your Attention to the Subject of Allotments of Land to the Poor?

I have; and can speak from practical Experience upon the Subject.

Have the goodness to state the Results?

I have given Allotments on various Scales; and in Kent for the Purposes of Gardens, and in Quantities sufficient for that Object. I have, however, given in Kent, to a very industrious and excellent Labourer, an Acre of Land at the Rent of 12s. and for the Term of his Life, which he cultivates partly as a Garden and as an Orchard, and partly in Tillage; and I am informed that he raises upon that Ground sufficient Wheat for the Consumption of his own Family during Half the Year: his Family consists of a Wife, a Mother, and Two or Three Children.

Is he employed solely upon that?

No; he is in my Employment as a Gardener. The other Land I have given to the Labourers in the Parish which I inhabit, and in a neighbouring Parish, has been Land of a good Quality; and according to the Principle which was lately stated by The Bishop of Bath and Wells, I have charged the same Rent as might be fairly expected from a Tenant, in order not to discourage the Adoption of the System by others.

Can your Lordship state the Produce of those Allotments of Land?

They are cultivated entirely as Gardens, and the Benefit which the Labourers derive from them is that of providing Vegetables for their Families, and enabling them to fatten their Pigs.

What Extent of Land does your Lordship consider as adequate for that Purpose?

I cannot speak correctly from Memory as to the precise Extent of those Allotments, but I believe them to be Half a Rood. In both Parishes I pay for those Allotments the Tithes and Poor's Rates, which are therefore to be deducted from the Rent that I receive. I have always been of Opinion that such Allotments are highly beneficial to the Labourers; that they tend to improve their Character and Habits, to increase their Comforts, and, when those Allotments are of such an Extent as to yield a surplus Produce, to give them a direct Interest in those remunerating Prices which I hold to be essential to the Welfare of the Community. In Derbyshire I have given Allotments for the Purpose of enabling Labourers to keep Cows, and those Allotments may be taken upon the Average to be about Three Acres and a Half, which I understand is sufficient for the Keep of One Cow during the Year, the Land, which is very good Grass Land, being fed and mowed alternately. I am told that those Allotments have been proved to be extremely beneficial to them; and I have found in all Cases that those who hold small Allotments pay their Rents with more Regularity than large Farmers. I am not able to mention the precise Rents, but they are the same as those at which the other Parts of the Estate are valued.

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Has your Lordship found it necessary on those Allotments to erect any Buildings?

No Buildings were required from me for those Allotments. In the North-west of Devonshire I have given Allotments of a much larger Extent; and here I would observe, that, according to Accounts in my Possession, the Wages of Labour were in that District, in the Year 1727, 6s. a Week, and that they are at present, I believe, but 7s.; and that, according to the Information of a very intelligent Person who was my Agent in that County, the Wages continued at 6s. a Week when he first came there, which might be about Fifty Years ago, but that the Wife of a Labourer earned as much by spinning, a Source of Occupation which has now totally ceased, as her Husband did by his Day Labour. The Labourers are in the habit of hiring Land from the Farmer, which he manures for them, and which they cultivate in Potatoes, paying him a fixed Price for the Land so taken. Husbandry is in that Part of the Country very ill understood, and in consequence of that Circumstance there are considerable Tracts of Land of very little Value. The Farmers seem to hold more Land than they are able well to manage; and many Years ago I adopted a System of giving Allotments of Land in the North-west of Devon to such an Extent as was intended to render the Labourer independent of any other Occupation than his Cultivation. In some Cases, when he had no Cottage near the Allotment, he received a separate Grant of Land for the Purpose of building a Cottage, which is constructed in that Country of Mud, with a thatched Roof; and for that Portion of it, being about Half a Rood, he received a Lease of Forty Years. The Allotment of Land was let to him for a Term of Fifteen Years, and during the first Five Years of that Term at a Rent below its actual Value, it being necessary to subdivide that Land, and the Mounds and Banks requisite for that Purpose being in that District Seven or Eight Feet in Height, and very laborious in their Formation. During the next Five Years it was let to him at its actual Value; and during the last Five Years at a higher Rent, so as to average the actual Value during the whole Period. I have not found the Result of that System to be perfectly satisfactory, and I attribute that to an Error, not in the System itself, but in its Execution. The Land upon which such Allotments are granted being on an Average worth about 5s. an Acre, the Rent during the first Period was 2s. 6d. and therefore a great Temptation was given to occupy the Land during that Period, in order to exhaust it as much as possible, and to relinquish it when it ceased to be productive. No sufficient Provisions were made in the Lease for the Cultivation of the Land, which in that District is in many Instances exhausted by a Succession of Corn Crops. I have given those Allotments to the Extent of Fifteen Acres, if not more. One of the Persons to whom such an Allotment was given complained to me that in consequence he had received no Parochial Relief; and I told him that one of the Objects was to render him independent of such Aid. Another, who held an Allotment of Thirteen Acres, required a further Quantity; and upon my telling him that I thought that Quantity was as large as he could well manage, he said that unless I gave him more he could not possibly afford to pay Rent and Taxes. I conceive, however, that this System would have succeeded much better if the Errors which I have just mentioned had been avoided, and if Husbandry had been in that District better understood. With reference to that Part of the Country, I would observe that, in the Autumn of the Year 1818, being in that Neighbourhood, I attended a Vestry; I addressed those who were present at some length upon the Necessity of giving better Wages to the Labourers, and strongly urged them to advance their Wages from 7s. to 9s. representing to them, among other Reasons, that a Labourer supported with his Family on 7s. a Week could not be able to do as much Work as if his Situation were made more comfortable. I succeeded in obtaining the Adoption of Resolutions for that Purpose, and in inducing those who were present to sign them; but as soon as I had left the Neighbourhood I was informed that another Vestry was held, and that those Resolutions were rescinded.

Is it not the Practice in Devonshire to give a Man Liquor in addition to his Wages?

I cannot speak positively upon that Point. I believe, during Harvest, Cider is given, but not, as far as I know, at other Times.

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Is it not the Practice for the Farmer to sell to his Men Wheat at a certain fixed Price?

Not to my Knowledge.

Is there any Surplus of Labour in that Neighbourhood, which enables the Farmers to dictate such very low Conditions to their Men?

I am not aware of its proceeding altogether from a Surplus of Labour; and I should ascribe it rather to the Want of sufficient Means on the Part of the Farmers, who are greatly deficient in Capital.

Does your Lordship think that their Means have been reduced since the Peace?

As long as I have known that Country, I am clearly of Opinion that the Farmers have taken a greater Quantity of Land than their Capital would warrant; and I am also of Opinion, confirmed by my own Experience as a Landed Proprietor, that their Means are greatly reduced, and are daily diminishing. The District which I speak of is from Holdsworthy to Milton, and in the Direction of Hatherly, and is a very hilly District. Some of the Land which has been well cultivated is very valuable. In Buckinghamshire an Application was recently made to me for Allotments of Land to the Labourers, with which I most gladly complied; and the Arrangement made is, that each Labourer is to receive, on the Land which is annually laid down in Fallow by the Farmer by whom he is employed, about Half a Rood of Land, which the Farmer is to manure for him; and it is perfectly clear that any Sum, however small, which the Farmer receives more than the actual Expence of the Manure is a clear Gain to him. Those Cottagers who have Pigstyes, which is not the Case with all of them, are also to receive Pigs for them at my Expence The whole of that Parish of Hoggeston belongs to me, and the Poor's Rates were, when I was last informed, about 1s. 6d. in the Pound on the Rack Rent.

At what Age are they to receive their Pigs?

They are to receive them when about Six or Eight Weeks old, and each is to have only One Pig, which is to be fattened in the Winter; and with a Part of the Proceeds another Pig is to be purchased.

Can your Lordship state the Number of Acres in that Parish?

I think between 1,400 and 1,500.

Can you state the Population?

The Population is small; by the last Census it was 188.

Is the Population sufficiently great in that Parish to carry on the Cultivation without Assistance from other Parishes?

I am informed that no Labourers are brought in from other Parishes, and the Farmers are restrained, under the Penalty of 50£. by their Leases, from bringing in any Labourer who might acquire a Settlement. The Cottages are let at very low Rents, and, so far from being profitable, are, including the Expences of their Repairs and an Annual Donation which the Labourers receive at Christmas, an actual Expence.

Can your Lordship state, in any of the Parishes in Kent, or any County, that the Effect of this Measure has been to reduce the Poor's Rates?

I am not aware that such has been the Effect in the Parishes where I have Property; but the Labourers are grateful for the Allotments, and consider them advantageous.

In Derbyshire, are the Labourers in comfortable Circumstances, or otherwise?

I am of Opinion that the Labourers in Derbyshire enjoy several Advantages, and, amongst others, the great Cheapness of Fuel; the Rents which they pay me are also very low, as I wish in all instances to be the Case with respect to the Labourers.

Does your Lordship happen to know the Rate of Wages in Derbyshire?

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I did not know 'till Yesterday that I was to have the Honour of being examined by this Committee, and I did not bring that Information which I have already obtained with respect to the Wages of the Labourers; but I believe that the Practice of having House Servants is more general there than in other Parts of the Country; and I think that System which prevailed in former Times is greatly conducive to the Comfort of the Labourers, and tends to prevent early and improvident Marriages. I would observe, with respect to Derbyshire, that all my Farms are of small Extent; I believe the largest does not contain more than about 160 Acres.

Can your Lordship state the Wages in the Parish of Hoggeston in Buckinghamshire?

The Wages of Labourers in Hoggeston are, I understand, about 8s. or 9s. a Week; and an Arrangement was long since made to provide them with Coals at a moderate Expence. I purchase the Coals, and the Farmers bring them.

Are they enabled, upon the 9s. a Week they receive, to support their Families; or, when they are numerous, is Part of the Burden thrown upon the Parish?

They are in general enabled to support their Families; and those who have not regular and constant Employment work as Roundsmen.

Do the Farmers in that Parish furnish the Labourers with any Portion of their Provisions at a cheaper Rate than they are sold generally?

I have never heard that such is the Case.

Is there any Village in the Neighbourhood?

There is a small Village belonging to me, bearing that Name; but a Village so small as to be inhabited altogether by Labourers or Farmers.

Do the Poor in that Parish suffer much from the Exorbitance of Retail Shops?

I am not aware that they suffer in that Parish; and, as the whole of it belongs to me, I should be extremely anxious to take Measures to prevent so great an Evil, considering it to be one of the first Duties of a Landed Proprietor to provide as far as he is able for the Comforts of the Poor; but, I believe, in other Districts it is an Evil which is very severely felt; and I am informed that the Shopkeepers encourage the Poor to run into their Debt, in order that they may ensure them as Customers, and charge them whatever Price they think proper. It is, I think, much to be regretted that the Consumer does not receive the full Benefit of low Prices, which do not, in consequence, encourage Consumption so much as would otherwise be the Case; and, as a Proof of this, I may mention, that some Pigs which, during the Agricultural Distress of the Year 1821-22, were sold by a needy Farmer at Smithfield for 3d. a Pound, were afterwards retailed by the Butcher who purchased them for 6d. or 7d. a Pound; and I am decidedly of Opinion that this Evil would be prevented by recurring to what was the ancient Law of this Country, and what is still the Practice in many States of the Continent, by regulating, from Time to Time, under the Directions of the Magistrates, the Retail Prices according to the Wholesale Prices; and that the Experience of that System has been found, wherever it has been tried, to be eminently beneficial.

Are the Roundsmen paid by the Farmer or by the Parish?

I understand they are paid by the Farmer.

Is your Lordship acquainted with any Parish in which the Population is too great for the present Means of Employment?

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That is less the Case in the Parish I inhabit, of Chevening, near Seven Oaks, than it is in some Parishes adjoining, in which there appears to be a Surplus of Labour, arising, as I conceive, from the Poverty of the Farmers. Many Years ago I attended some Vestries, and proposed that those who were permanently or temporarily without Employment should be provided with Spinning Wheels and Knitting Needles to spin or to knit Stockings, and that the Men should have a Loom, which I offered to buy for them at my own Expence; and I thought that such Labour, which could be exercised at all Times of the Year, and without being influenced by the Weather, would be profitable to the Parish, and would provide it with several Articles of Clothing for the Poor, which it would otherwise be obliged to purchase. The Measures I recommended for that Purpose were, that they should be paid by the Parish as heretofore, receiving a small Sum as Pocket Money, according to the Quantity of Work which they performed, which would avoid any Trouble or Inconvenience of Superintendence by the Overseers; and it appeared clear to me that Articles of Clothing would thus be provided at no other Expence than the raw Material, adding thereto the small Sums which would thus be paid to the Labourers. Those Proposals were in one instance adopted, but remained as a dead Letter on the Books, never having been carried into Effect. In another Parish they were objected to on the Ground that the Number of Poor permanently relieved would not be sufficient for the Purpose; to which I observed, that those, who were occasionally relieved might also be so employed during the Time that such Relief was granted; that it was extremely desirable in all respects to find profitable Employment for the Labourers, and not to send them on the Roads, which, when they do not require any Repair or Improvement, are actually injured by their Employment; and that it was also most desirable to avoid those useless Employments, which are altogether degrading and improper. Having learned that some Persons had actually been employed in drawing a Cart laden with Stones from a Common, I wrote immediately to the Overseer, expressing to him my Indignation at the Circumstance, and informing him that if such a Practice were not entirely and for ever discontinued, I should consider it to be my Duty to convene a Vestry, and to complain of his Conduct, and to require his Dismissal. He thereupon came to me, and represented that the Practice had not recently taken place, but that it was done at the Recommendation of the Vestry, and under the Authority of the Magistrates. I advised him, whatever Directions he might receive upon the Subject, to decline following that Practice, and rather to relinquish his Situation. The Sentiments which he expressed in his Conversation with me shewed that he was a humane Person, and would not be inclined to act spontaneously with Harshness or Severity.

Have the goodness to explain in what Manner the Articles worked by Knitting Needles or the Loom were to be disposed of, and for whose Benefit?

The Articles of Clothing so provided were intended to be given to the Poor in the Workhouse, and to others who might apply for Assistance, so far as they required Clothing; and for many Reasons it seemed very desirable to give Relief in Kind rather than in Money.

Was it intended that the Parish should find the Articles to be so worked up?

It was intended that the Parish should buy the raw Materials; and that they should be manufactured by those who applied for Relief, and who would receive, as an Encouragement, a certain Sum in proportion to the Quantity of Goods delivered, and in addition to the Sum which they would, at all Events, receive from the Parish.

Has your Lordship turned your Attention to the possibility of relieving the redundant Population existing in particular Districts, by Home Colonization?

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Many Years ago I suggested a Plan for that Purpose, having been informed by a Landed Proprietor in Yorkshire that he possessed a considerable Tract of Land at a Distance from any large Town, and without any resident Population, and which was, as he described it, of a fertile Nature, being to about the Depth of Two Feet a rich Peat, with Abundance of Stone and Slate, which might serve for the Purposes of building; and another Gentleman mentioned to me that he had bought on Speculation some Land, on the Confines of Yorkshire and Cheshire, which was also without any resident Population, and at a Distance from any large Town, and that, therefore, he found it utterly impracticable to cultivate it. I proposed, therefore, that those Labourers who were not able to find Employment, and were in consequence chargeable to the Parish, should be located in these Districts; that they should be employed in the first instance in building Cottages, which, with the Assistance of the Stone and the Slate, and as their Labour would be paid for by the Parish, would be constructed at a very small additional Charge; that the Cottages should be so disposed as to allow the Allotments to be indefinitely extended, according to the Means which the Occupiers might possess for their Cultivation; that they should continue to be supported, as heretofore, by the Parish, until they should have tilled the Ground and gathered the Crops which they might raise; and that then, those Allotments being of sufficient Size for their Support, such Assistance would no longer be necessary, and would consequently cease; that it did not appear to me that any Legislative Measure was requisite for the Purpose, except, perhaps, in order to enable the Proprietors of those Lands to charge thereon the Sum which might be requisite to pay the Interest of the Money so expended; and that the Proprietors would ultimately receive great Benefit from the Cultivation of those Lands, which had hitherto remained sterile and of little or no Value. I thought that by giving such Allotments Villages would in Time be formed, that Butchers, Bakers, Tailors, Shoemakers and others would find Employment in such Places, and that those who possessed those Allotments would afterwards raise surplus Produce for the Purposes of Sale, and that the Profits of that surplus Produce would yield Rent. No Assistance from Government would have been required for a Loan of Public Money, as Persons possessed of Capital would gladly lend it on Landed Security to any Amount; and the Amount requisite would not be large. This Proposal was made to a Meeting held in London, which professed to have for its Object the Encouragement of Industry and the Reduction of Poor's Rates; it seemed to be approved by those who were present, but was not, so far as I have heard, adopted in any District.

Does your Lordship think that, under the present Circumstances of the Case, any private Capitalist would be likely to advance Money to carry such an Object into Effect?

I think they would, inasmuch as their Money would be lent on Landed Security; and that those who held the Land in Fee would be able to charge it in the Manner above mentioned, without any Legislative Enactment for the Purpose.

Do you not conceive that much greater Facility would be afforded towards effecting this Object if the Government could be induced to advance Money for the Purpose?

I think that the Sanction and Encouragement of Government might be certainly beneficial, though not absolutely necessary.

What Portion of Land does your Lordship know of applicable to such Objects?

I am not personally acquainted with the Land to which I have referred, but have spoken from the Information of the Persons to whom I have referred.

According to your Information, what Quantity of Land does your Lordship conceive there is which might be obtained for that Purpose?

I believe that the Districts are of considerable Extent; and there is an obvious Difference between bringing Lands into Cultivation for the Purposes of a Farm, in which Case a Market is required, and cultivating Land, where the greatest Part of the Produce is consumed by the Occupiers themselves.

Had the Person who was in Possession of that Property been long in Possession of it?

I do not think he had possessed it long; but it is now, I should think, Eleven Years ago since I conversed with him upon that Subject, and I have not recently seen him.

Does your Lordship think that any Facility would be afforded for carrying this Proposal into Execution if Parishes were enabled to advance Money for the sake of placing some of their Labourers on such new Allotments, retaining to themselves the Power of having that Expenditure repaid to them within an indefinite Period, after the Improvements which have taken place by their Means?

I think that the Power which might be given to Parishes to borrow Money is extremely dangerous, and might be very prejudicial in its Consequences; that it would be, in fact, a Power given to Farmers to mortgage the Property of their Landlords.

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Would your Lordship have the same Objection to that Power being given to Landlords if it were limited with reference to the Amount of Poor's Rates the Parish had paid for some Time past, and with reference to the expected Benefit from the Reduction of the Poor's Rates?

I think the Power objectionable in any Case and under any Circumstances.

Does your Lordship feel any Confidence that there would be a Likelihood of Capital sufficient being produced to carry Home Colonization into Effect to any Extent, unless Government, or some other large Capitalist, were looked to to furnish such Capital?

I do not think that large Capitalists would be required, inasmuch as the Sums that would be wanted for commencing Domestic Colonization need not be very large.

If the Public were to receive any considerable Benefit from the System of Domestic Colonization, does not your Lordship think it must be carried to the Extent of some Hundreds of Thousands of Persons?

I have no doubt it ultimately might be carried to a great Extent.

If the Attempt were to be made gradually, does not your Lordship think that the Vacancy produced by the locating of comparatively few would be likely to be filled up in such a Manner that no perceptible Benefit could be likely to be felt, so far as a Benefit was expected to be derived from the Parish being relieved from a given Portion of that Population?

I do not know whether any Persons would be likely at first to make those Experiments on a large Scale, and therefore the Relief to be obtained by such Means must be gradual.

If your Lordship thinks that the Removal of what is called the redundant Population from some Places to other Districts in the Country, where they might be advantageously situate, would be a Matter of National Importance, do you not conceive it would be expedient for the Government, or some great Capitalist, to provide the Means for such Colonization?

I certainly think it might be expedient for Government to authorize a Loan of Exchequer Bills for such Purposes; but I should look to the general Relief of the Country as affording the best Remedy for all those Evils.

By affording the best Remedy for all those Evils, is your Lordship to be understood to make any such Measure unnecessary?

Yes, except under very particular Circumstances; and the Circumstances to which I would allude are, a Number of Persons being suddenly deprived of Employment, and obliged to solicit Parochial Relief.

Does your Lordship think that it would be acceptable to such Labourers as are in very reduced and uncomfortable Situations, in many of the Agricultural Districts, to be located in some Domestic Colony?

I should think that it might, but I am not aware of the Question having been asked of them; and many Persons feel a great Objection to leave a District in which they were born and have always resided.

Would your Lordship not presume that they would have a much greater Objection to be removed out of the Country than to be removed to a different Part of the Country?

Unquestionably; and a Removal out of the Country is a Punishment awarded by Law in certain Cases.

Does not your Lordship conceive that the well-understood Interest, not of the Occupiers, but of the Proprietors, would induce them to advance the Capital necessary to remove the superabundant Population from any given District to another District, either in this or in Foreign Countries?

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If the Landed Proprietors were willing themselves to advance the Money requisite for the Purpose of executing the Project of Home Colonization, the Objections which I stated as to the Parishes borrowing Money would not of course weigh; but if it is meant by the Question, whether their Interests, well understood, would lead them to advance the Capital necessary for the facilitating the Removal, of Persons to other Countries, I am of Opinion, that though the Plan might be attended with great Advantages in some Cases, and though it has been shown by Experience that in consequence of the general Distress which now prevails, Persons are emigrating of their own Accord from many Parts of the Country, yet that the natural Effect of Emigration is to deprive the Country of some of its best and most valuable Labourers, and of those who are Consumers both of Agricultural Produce and of Manufactured Goods, and who thereby contribute to the Support of the Revenue. I have no doubt that Persons possessed of sufficient Capital might remove to other Countries, and to some Parts of the Continent, and might be enabled to employ their Capital to more Advantage than they could at Home. I am not competent to speak of the Advantages which Labourers might receive in going to any of the British Colonies, but, with respect to any Country not under the Protection of the British Government, great Inconvenience, and in some Cases great Injury, might arise from sending Persons to Countries where they would have no legal Claims of Support, where their own scanty Means might be soon exhausted, and where they would, in consequence, become ere long wholly destitute.

Does not your Lordship believe that Want of Employment is a great Evil to the Labourers of this Country?

Undoubtedly; the Want of Employment and insufficient Wages are the Two great Evils: both the one and the other appear to me to be the Effect of the general Poverty of those who would otherwise give them Employment.

Does not your Lordship believe that, if any Means could be adopted for reducing the Number of Persons seeking for Work, better Wages would be given, and more constant Employment, to those that would remain?

I should certainly conceive that such might be the Effect.

Do you not believe that those who are not now called good Labourers, because they spend their Time in Idleness, would become better Members of Society when they felt themselves independent of the Overseer?

Such might be the Case.

Does not your Lordship believe that the Labourers in this Country are under great Privations, in consequence of not being enabled to get Work?

Unquestionably; but we should consider rather the Cause than the Effect of the Evil. The Want of Work I consider to be one the Effects and Symptoms of the Evil, but by no means its Cause.

Does not your Lordship believe that in many Districts in England there are more Men seeking for Employment than can be profitably employed?

I believe that such is the Case in the present Situation of the Country, but solely in consequence of Legislative Measures; and that if the Country were to be replaced in a State of Prosperity, full and constant Employment and adequate Wages might be provided for every Labourer.

Has your Lordship any Idea of the Expence that would attend Home Colonization?

I have already given some Opinion upon that Point; but the Experiment not having been actually tried, I cannot speak as to the Expence that it would occasion. I conceive that the Expence in the first instance would be small, and that it would be merely the Expence of building the Cottages, with the Aids I mentioned, and of Support 'till the Crops could be raised.

Does not your Lordship think that a great deal of the Land which is called unenclosed, in England, is not capable of profitable Cultivation?

Such may be the Case in some Instances, but it does not appear to have been the Case with respect to the Lands of the Two Proprietors to whom I have before alluded, inasmuch as those Lands were kept out of Cultivation from the Want of a resident Population.

Does not your Lordship believe that considerable Difficulty would exist in determining the Rights of Persons upon uncultivated Land?

The Cases to which I have referred were those in which there was no resident Population, and in such Cases I can conceive no such Rights could practically exist.

Is not your Lordship aware that there are many Rights in England of the Lord of the Manor, Copyhold Tenants, and other Rights supposed to exist?

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There certainly are; and in all Cases of Enclosures the Rights of those Persons should be most specially protected; and all those who erect Cottages upon those Lands should receive sufficient Allotments of Land upon them of greater Value than the Rights which they formerly exercised; and the Lands so enclosed ought not to be cultivated for the exclusive Benefit of those great Landed Proprietors who may have Rights thereon.

Will your Lordship give your Opinion why those uncultivated Lands in England were not brought into Cultivation at the Time when Wheat was 30£. or 40£. a Load?

Partly from the Reason which I stated in the former Part of my Evidence - the great Difference which exists between the Cultivation of Land as a Farm, in which Case a sufficient Market would be required, and the Cultivation of Land in Allotments, the Occupiers of which must consume the greatest Part of its Produce, which might however yield a certain Surplus for Rent.

Will your Lordship state the Quantity of Land you conceive there is in England which is applicable to that Purpose?

I cannot state the exact Quantity of such Land; but I have always understood that it is very considerable, and that there are several Millions of Acres of Land fit for Cultivation which remain hitherto uncultivated.

Is your Lordship aware that Evidence has been given before the Committee of the House of Commons stating the Number of productive Acres of Waste Land?

I find in the Minutes of Evidence before the Select Committee of the House of Commons on Emigration, in the Year 1827, that Mr. William Couling, a Civil Engineer and Land Surveyor, stated the Number of uncultivated Acres in England and Wales to amount to 3,984,000, and that the Number of Acres of uncultivatable Land were 4,361,400.

Does your Lordship know what Mr. Couling meant by uncultivated Land; whether he meant Woods and Forests?

I consider that Land employed in Wood may be considered as cultivated in that Mode.

Does your Lordship consider that the Wiltshire and Sussex Downs are uncultivated?

The Explanation which Mr. Couling himself gives of the Term uncultivated, is the Waste Lands that are capable of being converted into Arable Lands, Gardens, Meadows or Pastures.

Your Lordship does not know any thing on this Subject, but from the Evidence of Mr. Couling, a Surveyor?

I cannot profess to speak or to give any Opinion of my own respecting the Number of Acres of uncultivated Land which might be rendered profitable in the different Districts of the Country or in the whole of England, but I have found in many Works which mention this Subject a Statement that the Quantity of such Land is very considerable; and, if I recollect right, that Statement was also made by a Person of great Knowledge and Experience, who was President of the Board of Agriculture; I mean Sir John Sinclair.

Your Lordship cannot state whether Commons are included in Mr. Couling's Return as uncultivated?

They probably are.

Is not your Lordship aware that People have Rights upon the Commons, to turn out Cows, and Sheep and Geese, and other Stock?

Undoubtedly they have; and it would be extreme Injustice to deprive them of those Rights without giving to them sufficient Allotments of Land, which I conceive would be more profitable to them than the Rights they now exercise.

Do you not believe that the Labourers in England have suffered very severely by Enclosure Bills, which have in many instances prevented their keeping a Cow, which formerly enabled them to maintain their Families without Application to the Parish Rates?

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I am certainly of Opinion that such has been the Case, but I conceive that to have arisen from the Defects of the Measure, and not from the Measure itself; and I am also of Opinion that the Destruction of small Farms, and the Formation of large Farms, has much diminished the Comforts of the People, and injured the Prosperity of the Country; and it is my invariable Practice, whenever it is in my Power, to divide large Farms, and I have found it profitable to myself, and highly beneficial to others. For instance, a Farm near me, of about 170 Acres, if I recollect rightly, was offered by me to the Parish as a Parish Farm; it was refused; and I then let it in Five different Divisions, at a higher Rent than that at which I offered it to the Parish, and that at which it was before let.

Is your Lordship aware that, in many of the Enclosure Acts, the Cottagers received an Allotment of Ground?

They may have done so, but of course I cannot speak as to the Provisions of the immense Number of Acts of Enclosure which have passed of late Years.

Did not your Lordship ever hear that those Cottagers sold their Allotments of Land immediately upon their being surrendered to them?

I never heard it.

Did not your Lordship ever hear that the Labourers of this Country say that they would much prefer having the Turn-out of a Cow to having an Acre or Two of Land?

I am not aware that such Opinion has been expressed by them; but, of course, the Keep of a Cow requires a greater Quantity of Land than an Acre or Two.

Then your Lordship believes that Home Colonization would be a gradual Amelioration of the System?

I conceive that Home Colonization is beneficial to a certain Extent; but I am perfectly ready to admit, that under the present Situation of the Country, with its present Taxation and with its present Currency, no adequate Remedy can be adopted without a very material Alteration in those Respects.

Does not your Lordship conceive that, in a great many Instances, the Fund for Labour has been increased by the breaking up of what are called the Wastes and Commons?

Certainly. I would also state, that the Want of Employment now so generally and so severely felt arises in a great Measure from the Want of a sufficient Remuneration of the Farmer in the Cultivation of Arable Land; and that a Farmer residing near me, and who occupies a very considerable Quantity of Land, informed me he had 200 Acres which were formerly employed in the Cultivation of Corn, and which he has been obliged to employ in Pasture; the Consequence of which is, and must be, a Diminution of Employment of those who formerly worked upon this Arable Land.

Perhaps your Lordship is of Opinion that, owing to the greater Demand for Employment where Wastes have been broken up, the Wages have risen in consequence, and the People have been benefited by a greater Competition for their Labour?

I should think that it must have been an Advantage to them in that Respect, and that an Allotment of Land must either be of such a Size as to give a Labourer sufficient Occupation without any other Work, or if it be of a smaller Size, that he must have other Labour; because it is clear, that if the Land does not yield any surplus Produce, and if the Labourer holding the Land has no regular Wages of Labour, no Rent can be paid; and such I believe to be the Case in some of the very small Allotments which are to be foundin Ireland.

If there is an Excess of Population at present, would a Pauper Settlement at Home remedy that Excess?

I am not of Opinion that there is generally an Excess of Population; though undoubtedly there may appear to be such in certain Districts, and from particular Causes.

Those Causes being Legislative Enactments?

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Those Causes may not in all Cases arise from Legislative Enactments. The Failure of a Manufactory may throw upon a Parish an immense Number of Persons for Support; an undue Extension of Machinery may also throw a great Number of Persons out of Employment; but in those Districts which are entirely Agricultural I do not believe that there is a greater Number of Persons than could be profitably employed, or than are actually requisite, taking the Average of the Year.

Has your Lordship any Plan to suggest to ameliorate the Condition of the Labouring Classes of this Country?

I conceive that several Plans might be adopted with considerable Benefit; but that no general or effectual Remedy can be adopted without relieving the Country from that extreme Pressure of Taxation which has arisen from the Alteration of the Currency, increasing as it has done greatly the real Amount of all Payments that are made. I think that the Labourer has an undoubted indefeasible Right to the Employment of his Labour, which constitutes his Property; and that the due Mode of Investigation would be to consider what is the Sum which it is requisite a Labourer should receive for his comfortable Subsistence, making no Distinction between those who are married and those who are unmarried, unless they have large Families, such Distinction operating as a Premium upon Marriage, and an undue Encouragement to Population: and upon this Point I would beg leave to call the Attention of the Committee to a most excellent little Tract, recently published, entitled, "A plain Statement of the Case of the Labourer," which I now deliver for the Perusal of the Committee. I am not aware who is the Writer of it. It would then be seen what the Payments were which it is requisite should be made to the Labourer for his comfortable Subsistence; what Rents could be paid by the Farmer; and what Measures should be adopted for the general Relief of the Country, in order to enable those Wages to be paid. I am not aware that many Complaints were made of an Excess of Population in the Year 1818, and in the early Part of the Year 1825, when the Situation of the Country was much more prosperous than it is at present; and I conceive those Complaints, which are very just and well founded, to have arisen from Measures that have tended to the general Impoverishment of the Country.

Is your Lordship not aware, that at those Periods you have alluded to, 1818 and 1825, there were vast Numbers of Labourers out of Employment during the Winter Months?

Some Labourers must, no doubt, have been out of Employ during the Winter Months, and that may have arisen in a great Measure from the Want of any Domestic Industry in which they could employ themselves during the Winter Months. Many Occupations of Labourers on the Continent, and, formerly, in this Country, are now entirely superseded by the Introduction of Machinery, which rendered it altogether unprofitable.

Is not your Lordship of Opinion that Agriculture in no Country can be carried on to the best Advantage unless there is a Population which is not fully employed during the whole of the Year?

When the Domestic Industry to which I have alluded cannot be exercised, a greater Number of Persons must be employed during the Summer than can usually find Employment during the Winter; but I conceive that the Average of the whole Year should be considered.

Does your Lordship think we could compete, without Machinery, with the Foreign Manufactures?

I think that the principal Care of Government ought to be to protect and encourage the Home Market, which is by far the most extensive, the most valuable and the most secure. I think also, that from the Progress which Foreign Nations are making in Machinery, we may not long be able to compete with them, even with the Advantage we have hitherto possessed in that respect.

Has your Lordship any Experience, as a Magistrate, with respect to the Tendency of the Poor Laws?

I have not, having always declined to act as a Magistrate.

What other Measures of Relief has your Lordship to suggest for the Agricultural Labourer?

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I think that there are many Measures of Relief which might, to a certain Extent, prove beneficial. I consider the Allotments of Land, of which I have before spoken, to be of that Description, that profitable Employment might be found for the Labourers, who are often sent upon the Roads when they are not required. I think, also, that great Advantage might result to the Labourer from the Establishment of a Labour Rate, in which Case the Poor Rates would be confined to their original Object - the Relief of those unable to work, and the Labourer would receive adequate Wages; but that no Relief would be received by the Farmer, who would be still more unable to pay the Wages fixed by the Labour Rate than he is at present to pay a smaller Amount in Poor's Rates.

What does your Lordship mean by a Labour Rate?

I mean, by a Labour Rate, giving to all the Labourers of the Parish such Wages as they may be entitled to receive according to their several Capacities for Work, and giving it to those who would otherwise be employed by the Parish, not being permanently employed by any Occupiers of Lands.

Who is to decide what equivalent Wages are?

I think that the Minimum of Wages might be fixed by the Magistrates, as, I believe, is now the Case with respect to the Relief given to those who require Assistance.

Does your Lordship propose to allow the Magistrates to fix the Rate of Rents?

Certainly not; but the Rate of Rents would of course be regulated, amongst other Circumstances, by the Wages of Labour; and I think we should work upwards in the Scale, considering, first, what are the Wages which the Labourer is entitled to receive, and, after their Payment, what is the Rent which could be received from the Farmer; and considering whether or how far it is possible, under the present System and with the present Currency, to support the present Amount of Taxation; from which it would obviously appear, either that the Taxation must be very much reduced, or that the Currency must be altered.

Does not your Lordship think that the present Price of Labour is very much governed by the Demand and Supply?

The Market Price of Labour must be regulated by the Supply and Demand; but I am of Opinion, as I had before the Honour of expressing to the Committee, that the Labourer has an undoubted Right to the Employment of his Labour.

Does your Lordship mean to say that the Landowners ought to be bound to employ him?

I think they certainly ought, when those Labourers have not, by Allotments of Land or in other Modes, other Sources of Support; and I would here observe, that, in several, if not in all, of the States of Germany, the Labourers are Copyholders, and derive great Advantage from the Occupation of Land, which, however, in some States is heavily burdened by direct Taxes - Land Tax and others; but that such are the Advantages which they receive, that in those Countries Poor's Rates do not exist; and as far as my Experience, which is very considerable, extends, I am fully convinced that the Labourers in those Countries live in much greater Comfort than they do in this.

Would you throw the whole of the Expence of employing the Labourers of this Country, and providing for the old and helpless, upon the Land?

Certainly not; and I consider it an extreme Injustice that such is now practically the Case. I conceive, that, according to Principles of Justice, all Persons should contribute to the Support of the Poor according to their Means; and though I should not suggest for that Purpose the Establishment of an Income or Property Tax, I maintain that Manufacturers should be rated, not as they are at present, according to the Extent of the Premises they occupy, but according to the Amount of Capital which they have invested in Machinery, which would not require any Return of the Profits of their Manufactures; and that all Persons should be called upon to contribute to that which is no less a Christian Duty and a Moral Obligation than a Duty which ought to be imposed upon them by Legislative Enactment.

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Is not your Lordship aware that in the Manufacturing Districts the Manufacturers do pay in equal Proportion to the Rate compared with that which the Agriculturists pay?

I should think certainly not, in Cases where both of them pay, and where a Comparison might be made between them. I apprehend that the Manufacturer is rated according to the Extent of his Premises, and at the Rent which would be paid for those Premises, without any Reference to his Machinery and to his Capital invested; that in large Towns Premises of a considerable Size may be rated high, but in those large Towns, if the Parish does not extend beyond the Limits of the Town, there is no Agricultural Rate whatever, and no Comparison can be justly instituted between them. In an Agricultural Parish with which I am acquainted, and in which there is a considerable Manufactory, I believe the Premises are rated only for the Buildings and the Quantity of Land attached to them, without any Reference to the Employment of those Premises.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday next, Twelve o'Clock.