Appendix: poor laws, 15 December 1830

Die Mercurii, 15°Decembris 1830.

[99]

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

Thomas Partington Esquire is called in, and further examined as follows:

Have you any Statement that you wish to make in addition to your Evidence Yesterday?

There are Two or Three Points on which I wish to make some little Additions to my Evidence. The first is with reference to the Question of what Reductions of Rent have taken place in our Neighbourhood. I should state that, not in my own Parish only, but in the District generally, I know that where Rents had been raised in the latter Years of the War, in Contemplation of those Prices, they have been reduced to the Amount, in many instances, of One Third, and in some few as much as One Half; and also that where Valuations have been made within the last Three or Four Years with a view to the Adjustment of Rents, those Valuations have been made upon the Supposition of Wheat bearing 16l. a Load. Upon the Subject of improvident Marriages, I would venture to state that probably much of that Evil would be remedied if the Farmers would return to the Method that prevailed some Years ago, of keeping their unmarried Servants as Servants in the House, boarding them and lodging them, and giving them small pecuniary Wages; and I likewise think that such a Measure would contribute very much to the enabling the Farmers to employ more Hands and at less Expence; and particularly to lessen the Inconvenience from the immediate Want of ready Money. I have also Two other little Observations to make. One is with regard to the Quantity of Litigation upon Questions of Settlement; upon which I may venture to say that One Half of the Appeals as to Poor Rate would be done away if it were possible to put the Law of Hiring and Service upon a more simple Footing.

On what Footing would you propose to put the Law as to Hiring and Service?

Perhaps there might be Two Plans of doing it. What I meant was, to simplify it in some Way or other. If the Contract is to be considered, that there should be a complete binding Contract for the Year, and there should be no such Thing as constructive Contracts. If the Service is to be considered, then it should be a Service for a certain Time, whether it was under a yearly or a halfyearly Contract.

Do you think that Service would be the best Evidence of Contract?

I think it would; but the present System is productive of eternal Litigation.

You are aware of the great Objection that would be made in the Manufacturing Districts by the Employers of Manufacturers to a Settlement by a Service of that Description?

[100]

I know it would; but if so, I would resort to a Contract, and require an actual Contract for a Year, such as cannot be broken through without the Consent of both Parties. I can mention an instance to illustrate the Uncertainty that exists at present. If a Man is hired at monthly Wages and a Month's Warning, he gains no Settlement; but if he is hired at weekly Wages with a Month's Warning, which would be understood not to be more than a Month's Service, that is considered as a general Hiring, ergo, a Hiring for a Year, and therefore he gains a Settlement. There is another Point on which I beg leave to explain an Answer I gave to a Question. I said that nothing but the increased Prices would benefit the Farmer. When I talked of an Increase of Price, I meant an Increase of a real, not a nominal, Price; and that Increase produced by an increased effective Demand, and not by a Diminution of the Supply of Produce. In that Case certainly an Increase of Price would benefit the Farmer; but Increase of Price of any other Sort I do not conceive would benefit him.

How, in your Opinion, is that to be produced?

That is the Question. I cannot suppose how it is to be produced.

Can it be produced in any other Way than by excluding the Competition of Foreign Corn?

I think if Foreign Corn was to be too far excluded, the Mischiefs would be much greater. I really consider that the Operation of the Corn Law of Two Years ago has worked well, for in Two scarce Years it prevented the Price ever rising very high, and at the same Time kept the Price to such a Level that the Farmer had some Remuneration. I am sure from what I can remember, that, in Two such Years as the last, the Effect of the System that prevailed before the Year 1820 would have been to have raised Wheat up to 20l. or 25l. a Load, and it has never been for any length of Time above 18l.

Under the Circumstances, with the short Crops that there were, was 18l. a Load any thing like a remunerating Price?

I do not think it was.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Thomas Walker Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

You are now a Magistrate at Lambeth Street?

I am.

How long have you held that Situation?

Since July 1829.

Had you, before you became a Magistrate at Lambeth Street, turned your Attention to the Administration of the Poor Laws?

I began to turn my Attention to it in 1817.

Did you try any Experiment upon the Subject?

I did.

At what Place?

At Stratford, in the Parish of Manchester.

Is it a distinct Township from Manchester?

Yes; it is One of the Townships in the Parish of Manchester, and the Management of the Rates is distinct.

Is the Population Manufacturing or Agricultural?

Partly the one, and partly the other; there are a great many Weavers.

What is the Average of the Township?

About 2,000.

What is the Population?

About the same Number; about 2,000.

When you began your Experiment, what Plan did you adopt?

I adopted something of the Plan of the Select Vestries; it was before the Select Vestry Bill was passed, but it was the Plan of a Select Vestry. I got a Number of respectable Inhabitants to meet every Week, or once a Fortnight, and I always attended myself; and we managed the Affairs. When I first began, the Overseer of the Poor was sent to Lancaster on a Charge of Manslaughter, and the Township was left without any body to manage it, and I began with discharging his Duties 'till he came out of Prison, and that gave me considerable Knowledge upon the Subject.

[101]

What was the Amount of the Rates for the Year, when you began, in 1817?

I think about 1,600l.; that includes the County Rate, and every other Charge.

What Proportion of those 1,600l. was applied to the Relief of the Poor?

I should think about 1,200£.; but it is difficult to say, for a Workhouse had lately been built, and the Accounts were in a State of Confusion.

What were the Practices in the Administration of the Poor which you specially complained of?

They were much as they are in most Places. The Overseer was a Man who understood his Business exceedingly well; he was a hired Overseer from Manchester. The Farmers were, some of them, very liberal in the Distribution of the Rates; some from Favour, and some from other Motives; there was no Person of Influence to take the Lead.

Was there a Workhouse?

Yes; a Workhouse had been very lately built.

What Number of Inmates were there in that Workhouse?

There were very few in the Workhouse at the Time I began; it was only just built.

Was it the Practice to pay any Part of the Wages of Labour out of the Poor Rates?

No; there were able-bodied Labourers, who had Money from the Rates, who had large Families, or from particular Circumstances. It was the common Practice to pay the Cottage Rents out of the Poor Rates.

To whom did the Cottages principally belong?

A considerable Number of them belonged to Mr. Trafford, who is the great Landowner there, and some were under-let to Farmers, who had Leases for Lives.

Were those Cottages rated?

No, they were not.

What was the Sum of Money expended for the Relief of the Poor in the Year 1817-18?

From March 1817 to March 1818, 812l. 16s. 6d.

What were the Payments in the succeeding Years?

From March 1818 to March 1819, 537£. 19s. 7½d.; in 1819-20, 489l. 12s. 6d.; in 1820-21, 368£. 4s.: at that Time I ceased to reside there regularly.

Can you state the principal Means to which you resorted to produce this Reduction in the Rates?

By a diligent Investigation into each particular Case. We kept a Register of all the Cases. I collected the Farmers together as much as I could, (sometimes with Difficulty,) and introduced a System that gave them Confidence. They were very willing to do what was right as soon as they were convinced there was somebody to place Confidence in. At first they thought I should not be able to effect any Improvement, and then that I should not persevere.

What Measures did you resort to with regard to the Poor, either to relieve their Wants or to diminish the Applications for Relief?

We had printed Forms, the same as used in the Town of Manchester, stating the Names of the Parties, their Ages, the Number of Children, their Occupations, and what Rent they paid, and whether they belonged to any Club. Whenever a Person applied for Relief, the Particulars were all put down, and we gave Relief according to each Case.

Have you any of those printed Papers that you could produce?

[102]

I have none here, but if I have any in Town I will send One to the Committee. (fn. 1) Then we gave the Applicants such Relief as we thought their Necessities required, but the least possible, either for a given Time or not; if for a Month, we made them come again at the End of the Month, and took their Case again, and very likely there would be a Difference in their Statements. By referring back we compared the one with the other. So we went on, always giving the least possible Sum of Money; we did not adopt any particular Expedient.

Did any Case ever arise in which you found a Determination on the Part of an Individual to throw himself upon the Rates?

Yes; they tried all sorts of means to do so.

What Course did you adopt under such Circumstances?

By persevering against them; they tried in every Way to get the better of me, partly to get Money, and partly for the Sake of the Triumph, and to hold together. I used to tell them, I am but young in the Business yet; I am sure you do not deserve any thing, but I cannot exactly prove it, therefore I will give you some Money out of my own Pocket, but you may be quite sure I shall not go on long paying Money out of my own Pocket.

Did you meet with Support on the Part of the Magistrates?

Yes; I spoke to the Magistrates in the first instance, and they left the Management entirely to me.

Have they in no Case adjudged Relief where you had thought it expedient to refuse it?

Never. Sometimes I desired the Paupers to go to the Magistrates if they were dissatisfied; but they generally said it is of no Use, because they always hold with you. If by chance they did go, I went myself, and when they told their Story, I told mine.

In consequence of that System of Administration of the Poor Laws, did no Cases of Distress ever occur in the Parish which compelled you to deviate from your Rule?

No; I always gave Relief where I thought it was necessary, and no Accident whatever happened.

Did no Cases occur to you where the Families were in severe Suffering from the improper Conduct of the Head of the Family?

If a Woman said she was in a State of Starvation on account of the Drukenness of her Husband, and that she ought not to suffer for his Faults, I used to reply, "Certainly you ought; you married him for better and for worse; you should have been more prudent in your Choice; but I shall not let you starve; I will give you something for your Children." The Magistrates beforetimes used to hold, that if the Man was drunken the Woman ought not to suffer.

Did you not punish the Father for his Misconduct at the same Time that you relieved the Family?

Sometimes, for not assisting their Families when they could, Individuals were sent to Prison.

Has the same Administration of the Poor Laws gone on in this Place since that Time?

To a certain Extent.

Have the Rates diminished or increased?

I do not know. I have a Statement of the monthly Payments in May 1817-18, and then in 1827-28. In May 1817 the regular Payments to the Poor were 68£. 3s. 6d.; that was in the May before I began; I began in June in that Year. In 1818 they were 33l. 12s.; in 1827, (that was long after I had ceased to have any thing to do with the Management,) 15£. 2s.; in 1828, 13£. 10s. I have no subsequent Account.

Have you attended to the Management of the Poor in Devonshire?

I have, in the Parish of Berry Pomeroy, near Totness.

Did you observe any particular Defects in that Administration?

Yes; the same Defects I have observed every where - a generally bad Administration. The Overseers and the Magistrates almost always at variance, and the Paupers taking advantage, by appealing from the Overseers to the Magistrates.

What was the Amount of Rates there?

I do not recollect.

[103]

Did you effect any Reform in the Maladministration of that Place?

I was only there about Six Months. The Farmers were making a Reform. I called their Attention to it, and opened their Eyes to many Things they seemed not aware of before. They seemed very well disposed to do what was right, and they had some very understanding Men among them; but I do not know what took place after I left.

Have you since turned your Attention to the State of the Poor in London?

I have.

What has been the Result of your Investigation into the Administration of the Laws in the District to which you have attended in London?

The Administration of the Law is very much improved since I began.

Have the Rates diminished considerably?

I have a short comparative Statement, from which it appears that the Numbers in the Workhouses are very materially diminished. The total Amount of Payments is just below what it was last Year; but I am told that the Rates would have been a great deal higher than they are if it had not been for the new Method of administering the Law. Here is the Statement, which, with the Permission of the Committee, I will read.

The same is read, and is as follows:

Comparative STATEMENT of the PAYMENTS to the Poor in the Parishes and Hamlets of the Lambeth Street Police District in the First Week of November 1828, 1829, 1830; and of the Numbers in the Workhouses at the same Periods.

The Precinct of the Tower and the Parish of the Trinity, Minories, containing together 885 Inhabitants, are not included.

The Population, 120,639, is given according to the Census of 1821, and is now probably nearly 140,000.

Parishes - Whitechapel, St. George's in the East, Limehouse, Poplar, Bromley St. Leonard's, Stratford Bow.

Hamlets - Mile End Old Town, Mile End New Town.

The present strict System was partially commenced in July 1829, but not brought into general and uniform Operation 'till April 1830. Pauperism had of late been gradually increasing, 'till in the latter Part of 1829 its Progress was a little checked by the new System. It is probable it would in most of the Parishes have gone on increasing 'till the present Time, but the Comparative Statement exhibits a Decrease of Payments between the First Week in November 1829 and the corresponding Period of 1830, of 3l. 11s. 7d. whilst the Decrease of the Number of Inmates in the different Workhouses is 486. It may be estimated that the Difference between the Sum which will be expended for the current Year and that which would have been expended but for the stricter System will amount to at least 5,000l. The principal Object of the Overseers has been to clear the Workhouses, as being not only the most expensive System, but the most destructive of Moral Habits.

Has there been any particular Cause of Distress in those Parishes?

I think not; they complain a good deal, but I think without much Cause.

What are the principal Complaints?

Want of Work, and generally the Distress of the Times. In my Opinion the Cry of Distress has produced the greater Part of what there is; and I think the People persuade themselves they are worse off than they really are.

Do they complain much of the Number of Irish Labourers that are employed in the Metropolis?

No, I have not heard them.

[104]

Do the Irish Labourers interfere with them?

In some respects they do, but I think not to any great Extent; the Irish Labourers perform that Kind of Labour which the English would not perform. I think Business could not be carried on without the Irish Labourers.

Have you many Irish Applications for Relief at your Office?

Yes.

What Course do you adopt with them?

Those that have resided for any length of Time, we pass Home; but if they are only lately come, I have almost uniformly refused to pass them, and leave them to their own Resources.

Do you employ the Poor in the Workhouses?

Yes.

In what Employment?

They differ in different Places; in some Places in picking Oakum.

Is that a profitable Employment?

I believe so.

Do you give them any Part of the Wages they earn?

Part is given them; but I have nothing to do with that.

Are there many Men out of Employment in your Division now that come to you as a Magistrate to apply for Work or Money?

Very few come to me.

Do they come to the Bench at which you sit?

The other Magistrates leave the Management of the Poor entirely to me.

Do you know any thing respecting Tally Shops?

Yes.

Do you think that a Tally Shop is a good thing for the Labouring Classes?

No; a very bad thing.

Do you not conceive that the Tally Shops do a great deal of Mischief to the Labouring Classes in London?

I do not know to what Extent they exist; but to the Extent to which they do exist I am sure they do Injury.

Will you explain to the Committee what a Tally Shop is?

A Tally Shop is a Shop where any Person can buy any Article, paying a small Deposit, and taking the Article, and engaging to pay by Instalments the Remainder, for which the Security of some other Person is given.

For which those People that keep those Tally Shops charge an enormous Sum?

That I do not know; of course they charge more than in the usual Way.

Does it come within your Knowledge that a Man who, for instance, buys a Blanket, and pays 1s. 6d. a Week for that Blanket, is frequently sent to Gaol after he has paid the real Value of the Blanket, though he has not paid the Sum which he has agreed to give the Owner of the Shop?

I do not know that. I have sometimes Applications from Persons with respect to Transactions in Tally Shops, which appear to me to be Cases of great Hardship; but we have no Power to interfere.

Do you know any thing of Money Benefit Clubs?

I do not.

Are there Select Vestries in the Division of which you are acting as a Magistrate?

Some under Local Acts, but none, I believe, under the General.

Are there any permanent Overseers?

In some of the Parishes there is a permanent Overseer, and some not.

Do you know if those permanent Overseers are Shopkeepers?

I do not know that they are.

[105]

Are they united Parishes, or have they the Local Acts

They are all separate Parishes, but most of them have Local Acts.

Have you issued many Summonses this last Year for the Nonpayment of Poor Rates?

A great many have been issued.

Can you say how many you have issued this Year?

I do not know how many; the County Magistrates take a good deal of this Business.

Do you find that the Parties generally pay upon appearing before you in consequence of the Summons?

A great many pay without appearing; a great many pay afterwards. Some are excused, and some pay in part.

Are the whole of your Paupers employed in the Workhouses, or have you any Parish Farm?

There is no Farm.

Do you know if it is the Practice in your Division for any Part of the Wages of Labour to be paid out of the Poor Rates?

None.

You say that you pass some of the Irish back to Ireland; do you know what the Expence is of passing a Man and his Wife and Two Children to Ireland?

No.

How do you pass them?

They are sent to Bristol.

Have you ever had an Instance of the same Party coming back again to the Parish to be re-passed?

Very frequently.

In point of fact, do not some Irish Labourers get passed in the Winter to Ireland, and come back again the next Spring?

It used to be so, I believe; but I should refuse to pass them.

Do you happen to know, if an English Labourer is in Ireland, whether there is any Means of passing him Home to his Parish?

I do not know.

Do you conceive that there is more Population in your Division than can be employed?

I have no doubt but that all the People could maintain themselves if they were prudent. The Manner in which Business is carried on now almost always occasions a Number of People to be out of Employment, because it is carried on by Fits and Starts; for instance, at the Docks, there are generally a great Number of People waiting there for Employment; and then, if Two or Three Vessels come in, they are all busy for a Time, and getting good Wages; and then again they are idle, and have nothing to do for some Time.

Do you know whether there are more Irish Labourers in your Division now than there were several Years ago?

No, I do not; but I should think they were increased. An Irishman told me one Day he got 25s. in Three Days by working in the Docks, and at the End of the Fourth Day he had nothing left.

You said that Irish Labourers do Work which Englishmen will not undertake; what Work do you allude to?

What are called Bricklayers Labourers, are, I believe, almost all Irishmen.

Do you not know that before Irish Labourers came over here, that Work was done by People that came in from the Country?

As long as I can remember I believe it has been done by Irishmen.

Have you had any Means of knowing that the Circumstance of Irish Labourers coming here has thrown those People back upon their Parishes?

No.

[106]

You said that when first you knew the Township in Manchester, 1,600£. was raised, of which 1,200£. was applied to the Relief of the Poor; what was done with the other 400l.?

The County Rates, I think, were nearly 300l. and there were the Church Rates and various Expences.

During the Time that you reduced those Rates in the Manner you have stated, were the Poor equally well provided for as when the larger Sums were raised?

They provided for themselves better. I think they were much better off.

Had you at Manchester frequent Cases of Persons receiving large Wages, that have stopped all at once, and immediately come upon the Poor Rate?

They used to do so more than they do now.

What has prevented it lately?

The better Administration of the Poor Laws.

Has it occurred to you whether there might not be any Means of punishing this Improvidence which brings them upon the Poor Rate so soon after they are in profitable Employment?

No; I would adopt a strict Administration of the Poor Laws, and leave that Improvidence to punish itself.

Formerly did not that Evil prevail to a great Extent?

Yes. I have heard of a Man earning Five Guineas a Week, and, after being ill a Week, coming upon the Poor Rate.

Are there a great many Factories in Manchester?

There are.

Are the Manufacturers otherwise rated than for those Factories; are they rated upon their Capital at all?

I do not know. In the Township in which I resided there were no Factories; there were many Weavers.

Were they partly maintained by the Poor Rates?

Yes.

Did the Manufacturers at all contribute to those Rates by which they were paid?

No; they were Weavers living in Cottages.

And the Manufacturers whom they served were living in another Parish?

Yes.

Consequently they were maintained by Poor's Rates to which the Man who had the Benefit of their Labour did not contribute?

Yes.

In the instances of Reduction of Poor Rate you have mentioned, do you attribute that Reduction to any other Cause than a close Adherence to the Administration of the Law as it stood at the Time?

To no other Cause.

Do you think the Law sufficient for its Object?

I think it would be better if there were no Law at all. I act as if there were none; entirely according to my own Discretion; and my Aim is to abolish Pauperism altogether.

Is it not the Practice in your Division to give Relief to Persons, and desire them to find their Way to their own Parish?

Very frequently.

Do you consider that legal?

It depends upon the Way in which it is done.

Does not it often happen that those Persons go to Parishes which they suppose to be their Settlement, and which afterwards prove not to be so?

I suppose that to be the Case.

[107]

Is not that putting a very heavy Charge upon those Parishes which those People have been so sent to?

The Way in which it is frequently done is, a Person says, I belong to such a Parish; and the Overseer says, I cannot pass you to it; there is a Trifle to help you on your Way; and gives him a Shilling or Sixpence.

Do not you conceive that the Law is imperative that a Man should only be passed by the Order of a Magistrate to his own Parish?

I do not call that passing. A single Man says, for instance, "I want to go to Northampton; I want you to pass me." I should positively object. If he said he was in great Distress, and I believed him, I should advise the Overseer to give him a Trifle, and tell him he must not apply any more, but go on his Way.

Is not that a great Hardship upon the Parish of Northampton to which that Man may not perhaps belong?

Very likely the Man does not go at all to Northampton, especially if he does not really belong to it.

Are the Overseers in the habit of bringing such a Man before you, that you may judge where his Parish is?

If they think it worth while to pass him, they do. The Man, perhaps, would come to me on Appeal from the Overseers, and say, "I want to be passed;" and I should say, "You are an ablebodied Man, I shall not think of passing you."

From your Knowledge of the Administration of the Poor Laws in your Country, was that System commonly carried on, of giving a Man a Shilling, and telling him to find his Way to his own Parish?

I believe that is common in every Parish.

Do you consider that to be the Law?

I do not consider it to be contrary to Law; and I consider it to be the best in Practice.

Is not that a Practice that is liable to be very much abused?

I think it is a Practice that answers. I think it is the best Thing that can be done in such Cases.

Do you take Money out of the Poor Rate, and give it in that Way?

It is given out of the Rate by the Overseer.

Do you consider that a legal Application of any thing that is raised by the Rates?

I do not consider it illegal; it is given in the Shape of casual Relief.

Do not you conceive that the giving a Shilling to a Man to find his Way back to his Parish is very often done by the Overseer in consequence of his not being enabled to discover what the legal Settlement of the Pauper is?

I dare say it is.

Then, in point of fact, Parishes in London are in the habit of giving Relief to those Persons, telling them to go down and throw themselves upon that Parish which the Pauper believes to be his own, but which there is no legal Proof to be his own Place of Settlement?

That is very often the Case, I dare say.

Then that Practice places upon the Country Parish a Pauper who could not by Law be placed upon it?

It is the same upon all Parishes; and the Country Parishes may do it upon the London Parishes.

In point of fact, do Country Parishes do it?

I do not know; in the Neighbourhood of Manchester we used to do it.

Is not an Overseer punishable for removing a Pauper, and desiring him to go to another Parish, in an illegal Manner?

[108]

He does not desire the Pauper to go. If the Overseer were to pay for his Place on a Coach, and give him Money to take him down, I should consider that illegal; but if an able-bodied Man were to say, "I want to go down to Portsmouth," I should say, "I shall not relieve you; you must get to Portsmouth as you can." If he were in great Distress, I should advise the Overseer to give him a Trifle, and let him find his Way. In these Cases, some Reason is generally assigned for wishing to go to a particular Place; such as having Friends there, or the Means of gaining a Maintenance.

Do you conceive that such a Charge, when made in the Parish Accounts, is legal?

Certainly. It comes in the Shape of casual Relief; in the same Way as if the Man applied without saying he wanted to go anywhere, saying that he was in great Distress, the Overseer gave him a Shilling.

Suppose the Overseer was to say, "I shall not give him any Money; you may make an Order for Relief if you please;" would you attempt to enforce it?

I never make any Order.

How long have you acted as Magistrate in London?

I have acted Two Years as a Magistrate; I was Six Months at Worship Street as a County Magistrate.

What were the Wages gained at Manchester, at the Period you were there, by the Weavers?

They were low at that Time; they varied according to the Work; some finer and some coarser. My Advice to the People was, not to bring up their Children to weaving, because I was convinced that the Power Looms would supersede Hand-weaving.

How do you conceive that a Woman would be relieved that came to you with a drunken Husband, and whose Wages were not more than 6s. a Week, even if he worked for Twelve or Fourteen Hours a Day?

They were never so low as that; but if there was great Distress, we gave some Relief. Every Case depended upon its own Circumstances. I think at that Time a Man that worked hard got from 10s. to 12s. or 14s. a Week.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. Francis Sherborn is called in, and examined as follows:

You reside at Bedfont, near Hounslow?

I do.

Are you acquainted with the Management of the Poor in that Parish?

I am.

What is the Extent of the Parish?

About 2,000 Acres.

What is the Population?

At the last Census the total Number of Inhabitants, Male and Female, was a few short of 1,000.

Is it purely Agricultural?

Almost entirely so; there is only One Gunpowder Manufactory.

What have been the Poor Rates for the last Four Years?

I think I have been Overseer myself the last Four Years; the first Year of the Four it was 3s. in the Pound; and the Three last, 2s. in the Pound; Two Rates of 1s. each on an Assessment of Three Fourths of the Rack Rent; that is, supposing our Land rented at about 40s., the Assessments are about 30s. per Acre.

Have you introduced a Select Vestry?

Not at all.

Have you any Persons out of Employment in the Parish?

None at all. Myself and my Brother occupy a considerable Portion of the Parish, and we have about Seventeen Persons that do not belong to the Parish in our Employ; and generally every Man, Woman, and Child that can work, and is willing to work, are employed.

What is the Rate of Wages?

[109]

The regular Day Pay is about 12s. to 13s.; some few have 14s. and 15s.; but we endeavour to employ their Wives and Children as well. If a Man brings his Child, whether it be a Boy or a Girl, we find something for it to do.

Do you mean to comprehend the Labour of the Family in the Wages you have mentioned?

No; the Individual only; the Man has 12s. or 13s. Those that can do Task Work, we put them to it, if we can.

And by that Means they are enabled to earn from 12s. to 14s. a Week?

They do, when so employed.

In what Manner are the Wives and Children employed?

With respect to ourselves, we have had Three Thrashing Machines; we occupy about 900 Acres in that and the adjoining Parishes. It is almost all Arable Land, and it is all highly cultivated. The whole of it is cropped; and, by a large Outlay of Capital, we employ a great Number of Horses and a great Number of Persons; and without having those Thrashing Machines we could not get through our Business without a considerable Importation of Labourers. The Women are employed a good deal in the Barns, at the Thrashing Machines; there are Three or Four able-bodied Men who can thrash; and the additional Number is made up with their Wives and Children to each Machine.

What Sum weekly do the Women earn?

4s. and 5s. a Week; 8d. or 10d. a Day.

And the Children?

I begin giving them 2d. a Day, which is 1s. a Week, and they earn 1s., 2s., 3s., and 4s. a Week.

Is any Assistance to the Wages given out of the Rates?

None, except in Illness. We encourage the Men to be in Clubs, and we all of us subscribe to those Clubs; and in the Winter-time, if they want a little Assistance, by way of Loan, we advance it to them, which they repay in the Summer.

What is the usual Rent of Cottages?

Nearly the whole of our Labourers are in our own Cottages, and they pay 3£. 18s. a Year; and to those Cottages there are small Gardens attached; not so much as has been recommended-Half an Acre, but a few Poles each, which is as much as they have Time to cultivate, as they are fully employed; and we always, all the Year round, make a Practice of allowing them Potatoes at 1s. a Bushel, which is cheaper than they can grow them.

Do they keep a Pig?

Some of them do.

Can you state what the Rate of Wages was during the high Prices?

I can produce a correct Average of the Prices of Wheat, taken from our own Books, from the Year 1811 to 1829 inclusive, as follows; namely,

I should observe that some Years, when Corn has risen higher than usual, we have ground Wheat or purchased Flour for the Men at a reduced Rate, instead of raising Wages.

[110]

Is your Land of particularly good Quality?

It is a Gravelly Loam; it is a kindly Quality, but not first-rate Land.

Does it belong to you, or do you rent it?

Part of it is my own Land; the Remainder we rent.

What do you consider the Value of Land in your Neighbourhood?

40s. per Acre, Tithe-free, is about the Average in our Neighbourhood.

Do you attribute the high Price of your Wheat to good Cultivation, or to the Quality of the Land?

To the Quality of the Land, which grows a good Quality, but not so much in Quantity; and of course the better Land is cultivated, the better Chance you have of growing a good Quality.

Does it appear to you to be your Interest to employ the large Portion of Labourers that you do upon that Land, rather than suffer them to be paid out of the Poor Rates?

Certainly. We think the Principle a bad one to drive the Men to the Poor Rates; and the additional Outlay is made with a view to repay us.

Have you any Experience of Agriculture in any other Part of the Country?

I have not, beyond our own immediate Neighbourhood.

Do you know any of the neighbouring Parishes, where the Practice of paying Part of the Wages out of the Poor Rate prevails?

It is not the Practice in our immediate Neighbourhood. One Advantage we have is, that we are in the Vicinity of the London Markets, which enables us by extra Manure to keep all the Land in Cultivation, which makes a great Difference; and of course if it is all kept in Cultivation, and there are no Fallows, it enables us to give much more Employment.

Has the Population of your Parish increased since you have occupied your Land?

It is increasing.

Do you employ a greater Number of Persons than you did at first?

It has always been our Practice to employ as many as we could.

Do you employ more now than you did in 1811?

I believe we do; in fact we have much more Land than we had then, in consequence of Hounslow Heath having been inclosed.

Do you employ more Persons upon the same Land than you did then?

I do not believe we do.

You say you now employ Seventeen Persons who do not belong to the Parish; why do you employ those Persons?

Because there are not Persons enough in our Parish to do the Work.

Are they generally Englishmen, or Irishmen?

I scarcely ever have an Irishman ask me for Work.

Do you think the Agricultural Labourer is in as good a Situation as he was during the War?

Quite so, I think.

Has there been a Reduction in Necessaries and in Provisions corresponding with the Reduction of Wages?

Quite. I think more. I conceive that the poor Men in our District now can get more of the Necessaries of Life; and Clothing is very much cheaper.

Altogether, you believe that the Agricultural Labourer enjoys more of Comfort now than he did in the high Times?

In our District I think he does.

You attribute your Ability to employ all your Poor to the Increase of cultivated Land?

I think the Increase of Population has kept pace with the Increase of Land that has been brought into Cultivation.

Do you depend upon your own Farm for Manure?

[111]

We bring a great deal of our Produce to London, and we always load Home with Manure; and in addition to that we have a great deal of Manure from Hounslow Barracks. It is our Practice to manure once in Three Years at furthest. We are paying now about 40£. a Week for Labour.

What is the particular Advantage of employing Thrashing Machines?

I have already said that we are short of Labourers, and we are obliged to employ a considerable Number of Persons that do not belong to the Parish. We are obliged to keep a great Number of Horses; and very often in the Winter-time those Horses have very little to do, and there is Employment by the Thrashing Machines for those Horses, and also for the Women and Children of the Labourers; and it enables us to get forward with our Work; so that when the Weather is fine we can take all those Labourers to cultivate the Land much more advantageously with them than I could without them. In addition to what I have already said, I conceive that the Corn is thrashed cleaner; but it is no Saving of Expence.

Does it in fact enable you to employ more Labourers?

We employ as many Labourers, certainly. I do not mean to say that we employ more able-bodied Labourers, but we employ as great a Number of Persons-the Women and Children belonging to the Families of the Labourers.

Has there been any Disturbance in your Parish?

No Disturbance; but we unfortunately had a Fire in Part of our Property on the 9th of November.

Do you conceive that any of your Parishioners had any thing to do with that Fire?

No, I have not the most distant Idea of it. The whole of them offered to watch every Night if I would let them; and there are Twenty-eight Men that watch nightly by Turns; they take it alternately; Four watch each Night once a Week, for which I pay them; but they are all anxious to watch; and they would be very glad, I believe, to detect any Person that was to commit that sort of thing, and they would stand by to protect any of our Property, to a Man.

Are the Thrashing Machines you use Horse Machines?

Yes, Horse Machines. We have Two now, one having been burnt.

Do you consider the Condition of the Labouring Classes in your Parish to be very good?

About as good as at any Time I can recollect.

Are they contented?

Perfectly so.

Do you consider that that is owing to their not having been demoralized by being put in Shoals to repair the Roads, and by looking for their Subsistence from the Poor Rates?

In a great measure it arises from that Cause. They have been constantly employed, and at such Wages as have been considered satisfactory to all Parties.

Is not one of the Advantages of Machines to enable you to thrash out a large Quantity of Corn when the Prices rise suddenly?

I do not consider that to be any Advantage, because we as often lose by it as we gain.

Do you conceive that the Power of thrashing out a large Quantity of Corn in a short Time by Machines tends to keep down the Price of Corn?

Most certainly.

Have you any Workhouse in your Parish?

None. Neither have we any Occasion for any.

Do you conceive that the giving a little more Land to the Labourer would be a Benefit to him?

[112]

I hardly know how to answer that Question. I think our Men have very little Time to cultivate Land, if they had it; they are always occupied now from Morning to Night.

You mean to say, that in your Parish the Men are not in a Condition to require that Relief?

That is my Opinion.

Do the Labourers in your Parish marry early?

Not particularly so.

Do you find that the young Men remain in the Parish, or do they go into the World to find other Employment?

They branch out. Some go out, and some come in.

Are many Men employed in the Gunpowder Manufactory from your Parish?

Not a great Number. It is at the Eastern Extremity of the Parish; and there are as many employed from other Parishes as from our own.

Do the Farmers in general in your Neighbourhood pursue the same System of employing all the Labourers in the Parish, instead of allowing them to go upon the Poor Rates?

Very generally.

How many able-bodied Men do you employ per 100 Acres?

There are such a Variety of Classes that it is difficult to answer the Question; but I think about Ten Persons of all Classes. We have about Sixty.

And it is your Opinion that you can profitably employ as many as that?

Yes, we employ them with that View.

Can you state what is the usual Proportion of able-bodied Labourers per 100 Acres in the Four-course System of Husbandry?

I cannot, never having turned my Attention to it.

What Course of Husbandry do you follow?

Our Mode is so various, owing to the Facilities that the London Markets give us, that we have no general or regular Practice. We consider that so long as we keep the Land clean and in Condition we can crop it as we like.

Do not you conceive that upon that System of Husbandry you employ at least Double the Number of Men per 100 Acres, in your Arable Farm, as compared with a Farm occupied in the Four-course System of Husbandry?

I do not know that the Difference is so great as that, but there is a very great Difference, certainly; and we employ about Six Horses for every 100 Acres.

You find that System profitable in consequence of the Facility you have of getting Manure?

If it were not for that Facility we could not adopt that System.

Therefore your Practice would not do for Persons that lived Twenty Miles further from London?

Certainly not.

In the Year 1811 and 1812 what Quantity of Wheat would the weekly Wages you paid for Labour, being then 18s. per Week, purchase?

About a Bushel.

At the present Moment, when your Wages are from 12s. to 13s. a Week, how much Wheat will it now purchase?

About a Bushel and a Half.

Are not other Necessaries for the Lower Orders as much reduced since that Time?

Yes, other Things which are quite as much Necessaries as Corn, such as Bacon and Beef, and Clothes. I conceive that the Men are better off than they were. The Time of those high Prices was certainly a Time of great Privation for them, and a great deal was done for them in the way of Charity.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

[113]

Mr. Thomas Turner is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you live?

At Sompting, in Sussex.

Have you been concerned in the Administration of the Poor Laws in your Parish?

I have; I have never been Acting Overseer.

What is the Extent of it?

About 2,600 Acres.

What is the Number of the Population?

Between 500 and 600.

What Rates have you paid for the last Four Years?

We have paid not quite 6s. in the Pound, at a Valuation of about Two Thirds upon our Rents.

Is the whole of your Parish Arable?

No; we have about 980 Acres of Down.

Have you any Wood Land?

No.

What was the Rate of Wages in your Parish last Year for Men in full Employment?

20d. a Day.

Have you raised the Wages lately?

Yes.

To what Extent?

To 2s. a Day.

Do able-bodied Persons in full Employment receive an Addition to their Wages, for the Support of their Families, from the Poor Rates?

Yes.

Can you state what Scale of Allowances is made to them?

There has been an Alteration made since last Year; last Year, for the Fourth Child, we gave 2s., and 18d. for each Child after that; at present, we give 18d. for the Third Child, and 18d. for every One afterwards.

Had you last Year many Persons out of Employment?

We had from Twelve to Fifteen through a considerable Part of the Winter.

Were they set to any Work by the Parish?

Yes; they were on the Road. I was the Surveyor of the Road, and I set them to levelling a Hill, and to taking off a Corner of a very sharp Turn.

Did you set them to work by the Grate, or by Day Work?

By Day Work.

What Rate of Wages were they paid for such Work?

A single Man had 8d. a Day; a Man, with less than Four Children, had 18d.-9s. a Week; and after that we gave 20d. a Day with Three Children; and after that we gave, from the Poor Book, for the Fourth Child, 2s., and for every Child after 18d.; the same as in other Cases.

Did you, then, make a Distinction between the married and the single Men in what you paid out of the Way Rate?

Yes; we gave to a single Man but 8d. a Day; a Man with a Wife and no Child, 6s. per Week; Ditto, One Child, 8s. per Week; with Two, 18d. per Day; Three Children, 20d. per Day; and that came out of the Way Rate; and then what was paid for the Children afterwards came from the Poor Rate.

[114]

Have you made any Arrangement for the Employment of all the Labourers in your Parish?

Upon the breaking out of the Disturbances, in fact before they reached Sussex, we made an Alteration in our Wages, putting them to 2s. a Day; and with regard to our Poor Rate, we made a Difference of 18d., commencing at the Third Child, instead of commencing at the Fourth, as we did before; and we came to a Decision of dividing all the Labourers amongst us upon the different Farms, according to our Rental.

In what Proportion did you agree to employ them?

Taking the whole Population, we were to have One Man to every 30l. that we stood rated in the Poor Books.

How many Men do you employ to 100 Acres of Arable Land in your Parish?

Perhaps it would be better for me to state the Sum that my Farm is rated at in the Poor Book, and to state the Number of Men employed upon the Farm. As the Farm was measured some Years ago, it was called 486 Acres. I have classed the Land under Three Heads: there are 195 Acres of very good and middling Land; there are 80 Acres of inferior Land, that we occasionally farm, but it is principally used for Sheep; and there are 211 Acres of Down. The Farm is rated at 249l. without the Tithes. Then, as we pay a Composition for our Tithe, the Rental of the Tithe is added to the Rental of the Land, making a Total of 328l. 4s.; which gives Eleven Men to the Farm.

Is that Proportion sufficient to employ the whole of the ablebodied Labourers in the Parish?

Nearly the whole of them; but I hardly can give a direct Answer to that, because we have a considerable Quantity of Ground that is occupied by Market Gardeners, and during a great Part of the Year they employ a considerable Portion of them, and just in the Dead of the Winter they are thrown upon the Parish; and last Year, being a very severe Winter, we had a great many out of Employment; when this Year we had hardly any at the Commencement of last Month.

What are the Cottage Rents in your Parish?

About 18d. and 2s. a Week.

Are there any Gardens attached to them?

Some of them have small Gardens; there are others at a higher Rent, that have larger Gardens.

Have any Facilities been afforded to the Labourers to hire small Allotments of Land?

No.

Is any Portion of the Rents of the Cottages paid out of the Rates?

Very little.

In what Cases is there any Assistance given in that Way?

For a few Widows and infirm People; but in very few Cases. Last Year we merely paid 13£. for Rent.

Have you any Workhouse?

No.

What is the customary weekly Allowance that you give to infirm Persons?

We have not any stated Sum; it depends upon Circumstances. To a Widow we have given 3s.; sometimes more, under particular Circumstances: to a Man and his Wife, 5s.; sometimes 6s. or 7s.

What, in your Opinion, is the present Condition of the Labourers in your Parish?

They are contented; and I think they are better off than the Generality of Labourers in Sussex. Our Neighbourhood is better than a great many others.

[115]

Are they better or worse off than they were during the high Prices?

I was not there at that Time; and I do not recollect exactly how they were then.

Were you in Business at that Time?

No; I have not been in Business a great many Years.

Will you state what the Food of the Labouring Classes is in your Parish?

They generally get Pork and Bacon and Bread. When we were making the Alteration respecting the Families, by giving 18d. to the Third Child, I went round to them when a great many of them were at Dinner; and I think I never saw a Set of healthier Children than they were; and there was not a House I went into but what they had Meat upon the Table-at least Pork or Bacon.

Do not they get Fish too?

Poor People do not very often like Fish.

Is there a good deal of smuggling in your Parish occasionally?

The last Autumn, I have heard, that several of our People, that I was not at all aware of before, had been smuggling; but the Smugglers will not have them since. It was said that they found them such Rogues that they could not employ them.

Is there a permanent Overseer in your Parish?

No.

Have you a Select Vestry?

No.

Can you employ all the Men you have divided among yourselves with Profit to the Farmer?

What we are holding at present, I think we could; but there are some that cannot do so; and in fact we could not get the Thing to be quite unanimous: there are One or Two that will not take the whole Number.

Can you continue to give them that Advance of Wages throughout the Year?

As the Imposts are at present upon the Farmers, we could not do it.

Do the Magistrates of the Bench you attend give any Scale of Relief?

No.

Do you give the same Relief in all Cases, for the same Number of Children, without reference to the Condition of the Parents?

Not entirely. There are some Cases in which a Man working in a Garden hires a small Piece himself, and then he makes greater Wages, and we do not consider him to require so much; but for all those that apply to the Parish there is a regular Valuation.

Do you employ all the Labourers in your Farm by Day Labour, or many by Task Work?

Most by Task Work; but our Wages are considerably above 2s. a Day; for example, the Shepherd has 15s. 6d. a Week; that is, I pay him 14s., and I pay House Rent for him.

Is not the Neighbourhood of Worthing a great Advantage to your Parish?

Yes, it is, in some Instances; the Women sometimes can earn something by washing.

Do not the Market Gardens supply Worthing and Brighton?

Brighton, principally.

Have you any Game in your Parish?

Not a great deal.

You say that some of the Farmers object now to those additional Men; do you think they could continue to employ them for any great length of Time, supposing the Prices of Agricultural Produce to be what they now are?

I do not think they could.

[116]

Do you know whether the Poor Rates in your Parish have increased?

They have varied very little the last Three or Four Years.

Do you know when this System of paying Head Money was first introduced into the Parish?

No.

You stated that several of the Cottages have Gardens attached to them; generally speaking, what is the Size of the Garden; is it as much as a Quarter of an Acre?

No; some of them are very small Spots, and some are large Gardens. There are in the Parish several Owners of small Pieces of Land, who let off little Pieces to some of the industrious People, who use it as a Market Garden.

What is the Rent generally asked in those Cases?

I do not know what the Rents are when the Ground has been let off as Garden Ground, but I have understood generally very high; some of it, I should think, is let after the Rate of 10£. or 12£. an Acre.

You now employ Eleven Men upon your Farm; do you conceive that to be a greater Strength than you can profitably employ upon your Land?

I think I could employ all those Hands if I had the Means of paying them.

Do you mean that if you had more Capital you could employ them, or if the Prices were more remunerating?

Since I have been there I have been unfortunately a Loser, in Times when Things have been against me; therefore I have been trying to do it as cheap as I could.

Would the Land be capable of Improvement by the Application of so much additional Labour?

I think it would.

Do the Labouring People marry very early in your Neighbourhood?

Generally they do.

Do you find that the young Men apply to the Parish for Work, or are they willing to go out of the Parish into the World to find Employment for themselves elsewhere?

A great many of them had applied last Winter, and some few this Winter, but not so many.

They do not seem willing to go out to seek their Fortunes?

No; very few.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. George Harrison is called in, and examined as follows:

You are the Overseer of the Parish of Lenham, in Kent?

Yes.

Are you the permanent Overseer?

No; the annual Overseer.

Have you any permanent Overseer in that Parish?

Yes, we have.

Do you undertake the Management of the Parish generally?

I do not attend at the Vestries at all, or very seldom. There is a Select Vestry.

What is the Extent of your Parish?

7,000 Acres.

Is it principally Arable?

About Half and Half. But a great deal of it is very poor, and not kept in Cultivation.

Is it Down Land?

[117]

Yes.

What is your Population?

Between 4,000 and 5,000.

What were the Rates in the last Year?

For the last Three or Four Years we have been paying about 12s. at a Valuation of Three Fourths of the Rental. We are a little lower now. I think we shall pay 10s. this Year.

What is the Rate of Wages in your Parish?

12s. per Week to able-bodied Men.

How long has that been so?

Always we have been paying 12s. a Week; but since we have been alarmed a little, we have been paying a little more. Some Persons have been alarmed; for my own Part I have not been alarmed the least.

Has it been the Practice to make any Addition to the 12s. a Week on the Score of Family?

Yes. A Man with Three or Four Children has generally had 3s. or 4s. a Week. The Parish got rid of them as cheap as they could. There was no regular Payment.

Have you any Persons out of Employment?

We have about Forty People unemployed.

How many had you last Year?

We had as many more; that is Eighty for Four Months.

What Employment was found for them?

They were sent out to the Road, to break Stones and improve the Roads.

Were they paid by the Grate?

No; they were sent out, I believe, to keep them out of the Way, for they were not attended to much.

What Rate of Wages did they receive for this Work?

The same as if they worked for the Farmers. A Man with a Wife and One Child received 12s. a Week.

Did they do any Work for that Payment?

Very little; not what they ought to have done.

What was the Distinction made between married and single Men?

To a single Man they would not give but 3s. 6d. per Week.

Whatever might be his Ability to work?

Yes.

Do the Farmers in employing their Labourers make any Distinction between married and single Men?

Yes, they do. There are, in fact, but very few single Men but what are kept at Farmhouses. If I have had a single Man, I have given him 10s. a Week.

To what do you attribute your having so few single Men?

In consequence of paying them badly.

You think that encourages them to marry?

I think there is no doubt of it.

In Summer is there full Employment for your Population?

Not at all; not even in Harvest. We had Men that were doing nothing this Harvest but working on the Road.

Has there been any Manufacture in your Parish at any Time?

No.

[118]

To what do you attribute this Overplus of Population?

I cannot say.

Had you the same Surplus in the War Time?

No. We had some few came Home that were discharged from the Army.

What was the Rate of Wages during the Years 1811 and 1812 for able-bodied Men?

I should say 2s. 6d. a Day, from what I recollect.

Were there any Men out of Employment at that Time?

Not at all.

Has any Land gone out of Cultivation in your Parish?

Yes, a great deal.

On what Account?

The Land is poor, and consequently would not pay the Expence of the Poor Rate and Tillage.

Is not it rated now?

Yes.

Has there been a Valuation of the Parish since that Period?

No; about that Time.

Has the Rate of this Land that has gone out of Cultivation been altered?

Not at all. It has been laid down with Grass, and Sheep fed on it. It is occupied by People that have very little Property, and therefore they cannot afford to till it.

What are the Cottage Rents in your Neighbourhood?

They have been very high; 2s. 6d. per Week, and in some Instances 3s. a Week.

In whose Hands is the Property of the Cottages, principally?

I have about Sixteen myself. I let about Seven or Eight at 2s. a Week, and others at 1s. 6d.

Are your Cottages rated to the Poor Rates?

They are rated, but it is not paid.

Are the Rates paid by the Parish?

Very few now. It has been the Case. My Rents I receive weekly from the Men.

Are there any Gardens attached to the Cottages?

Yes; generally I give about Twenty Perches to each Cottage, and likewise let the Men have some Land to till. They clean the Land, and put in Potatoes, and let me have it the Year afterwards; and I charge them no Rent, but let them have the Land for the Year.

What Quantity of Land do they employ in this Way?

Some have Twenty and some Thirty Perches.

Do you limit them to that?

Yes.

Are you acquainted with the Produce derived from that Quantity of Land so cultivated?

They genenally plant it with Potatoes, about Two Bushels a Perch. On Twenty Perches they get Forty Bushels. Perhaps they get Thirteen or Fourteen or Fifteen Sacks on the Piece.

Do they manure the Land?

They keep a Pig, and I allow them Straw to make a little Manure themselves.

Is this in addition to the Wages you give them?

Yes.

[119]

At what Sum should you estimate the Value of those Indulgences in the Course of a Year?

He gets his Potatoes for nothing; and if he went to a Huckster's, he must buy them at a very high Price.

What should you value the Produce at?

At 3s. per Sack when he digs them up; and if he keeps them for Half a Year, they are worth 5s. a Sack; consequently he reaps all those Advantages by having them by him. I should think altogether it is worth 3l. certainly, because if he buys his Potatoes by the Gallon in the scarce Season, he would buy them very high.

Do your Men receive any Parish Allowances in addition to that?

Yes. I have One Man that has Seven Children. I pay him 15s. a Week, and he goes to the Parish and gets 4s. more.

What Extent of Land do you hold?

300 Acres, my own Property. I have occupied 900 Acres in the Parish, and my Ancestors did the same for many Years; but now I have declined a little more than a Year ago.

What Number of Labourers do you employ now upon the 300 Acres?

Eight.

What Proportion of it is Arable?

About 100 Acres, and the rest Sheep-walk and Wood Land.

Do the other Farmers in the Parish employ the same Number of Labourers in proportion to their Land?

No; I am sorry to say there are a great many Occupiers very poor, and who cannot do Justice to their Land. When the Proprietors hold it, they employ more than the Occupiers.

Do you think they could employ more Labour profitably, under existing Circumstances, if they had Capital?

They could improve the Property; but as to whether they could realize enough to pay Interest upon the Capital, I think not upon the poorer Part of the Parish.

Has there been any Attempt to introduce Spade Cultivation in your Parish?

I have given a Sum to the Overseer for Four Acres, which he is to get dug by the Spade. I give him the same Price that I could have it ploughed for, that is 13s. an Acre; and they make it up out of the Poor Rate to 1l. an Acre, which is what they pay for having it dug with the Spade.

What Depth does he dig it?

The same as the Plough it ought to be, but I am afraid he does not dig it so deep.

For what Crop is that Land intended?

Barley.

If they were to trench that Ground deeper, should you expect a better Return?

Certainly. They go Eight Inches now.

Do you plough Eight Inches deep?

We do on the Hill.

What is your Substratum?

It is a gravelly Soil. We have a Variety of Soils. I suppose 2,000 Acres of the Parish is very stiff flinty Land.

Is it your Opinion, that by the Application of Spade Husbandry there, the Produce would be materially increased?

I think not.

[120]

You would as soon have the Field well ploughed Nine Inches deep as dug?

Yes.

What Expence would it be to plough a Field Nine Inches deep?

To plough it Eight Inches deep would be 13s. an Acre; and I do not wish for it deeper than Eight Inches.

Has it always been the Practice in your Parish to make a Difference in the Wages between single Men and married Men?

It has of late Years.

Do you recollect when that Practice was introduced?

Not many Years ago; I may say, about Seven Years, perhaps.

Have many of the young Men of your Parish gone out of it of late Years?

No; but few. There have been a great many young Men married in consequence of their being kept short. Some of them have married at Eighteen. It has not been the Case so much the last Year or Two as it was some Years since. I believe they found it more difficult to get a Living, because they were obliged to hire a House, and those sort of Things; and they began to feel the Evil of it.

Has there been any Emigration from your Neighbourhood to America?

A few Families we have sent out; sufficient to cost the Parish 130l. which the Parish advanced.

When was that?

The Year before last.

How many went?

Three Families.

Have Accounts been received from them since they went out?

Not, except to their Friends; the Parish have never received any Information.

Has it been much talked of in the Parish since they went?

No.

You have said, that, owing to the Poverty of the Occupiers, there are a smaller Number of Persons employed than usual; do you mean to say, that the Occupiers have become poorer of late Years than they were formerly?

Certainly.

What do you attribute that to?

Not to the Price of Corn this Year; but of late Years the Prices have been very bad, and the Taxation has been very heavy.

What Proportion of Land has been thrown out of Cultivation since your Time in the Parish?

I should say that where a Farmer with a small Farm was growing Forty Acres of Wheat, he would grow Thirty now.

Does not that Circumstance partly account for the surplus Labourers?

I think it does so, partly.

Have Rents been much lowered in your Parish?

I believe not; I left off farming on account of my Rent being too high.

Has Tithe been lowered in your Parish?

No, but little. The Corn Tithe is taken in Kind. There is a Composition for those that like to fall into it, but I prefer having mine taken in Kind. The Vicarial Tithes have been lowered something.

Do you mean to say that the War Rents are kept up now?

There was a Demand to raise them. I had a Farm that I was paying 500£. a Year for, and which my Ancestors, between 1790 and 1800, were giving 300l. a Year for; and that made me leave off farming entirely.

[121]

In the surrounding Neighbourhood, have not Rents been lowered as much as Fifty per Cent.?

I believe they have, in some Cases.

With the Reductions that have taken place in the surrounding Neighbourhood, do you not think that the Rents are as low now as they were in 1792, if you make an Allowance for the Money that has been expended in Buildings and permanent Improve ments?

I should think not.

Do not you think that a great many Landlords have lowered as much as Fifty per Cent.?

Some have, I have no doubt.

If Fifty per Cent. had been taken from yours, would you not have gladly continued?

Yes.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned 'till To-morrow, Twelve o'Clock.