Proceedings in the Commons, 1601: December 6th - 10th

December 6th - 10th

Sunday, December, 6.

Monday, December, 7.

On Monday, December, 7. A Bill for Ludgate.

A Bill Touching the Countess of Sussex her Joynture.

A Bill Touching Cox and Dethick.

A Bill for the better making of Woolen Cloth.

A Bill prohibiting Markets and Fairs to be kept on the Sunday, was brought in from the Committee by Mr. Doyly, and put to the question, and agreed to be ingrossed.

A Bill concerning the Assize for Feuel, was read and Committed; the place of meeting the Court of Wards; and to Morrow in the Afternoon, the time.

A Bill for the better Execution of the Good and Charita ble Uses hereafter in this Statute mentioned. It was Committed to the former Committees.

Mr. Bacon reports, about a New Bill for Insurances, &c.

Mr. Bacon said: I am, Mr. Speaker, to tender to this House the Fruit of the Committees Labour, which tends to the comfort of the Stomack of this Realm; I mean the Merchant, which, if it quail, or fall into a Consumption, the State cannot Choose but shortly be Sick of that Disease. It is inclining already.

A Certainty of Gain, is that which this Law provides for. And by Policy of Assurance, the safety of Goods is Assured unto the Merchant; this is the Loadstone that draws him out to adventure, and to streach even the very Punctillio of his Credit.

The Committees have drawn a New Bill, far different from the Old; the first limitted power to the Chancery, this to certain Commissioners by way of Oyer and Terminer. The first, that it should only be there; this, that only upon Appeal from the Commissioners it should be finally Arbitrated. But lest it should be thought to be very vexatious, the party Appellant must lay in deposito, &c. And if upon Hearing it goes against him, must pay double Costs and Damages; we thought this course fittest for two Reasons:

'First, Because a Suit in Chancery is too long a course, and the Merchant cannot indure delays.

'Secondly, Because our Courts have not the knowledge of their Terms, neither can they tell what to say upon their Cases, which be Secrets in their Science, proceeding out of their Ex'perience.

'I referr the Bills, both Old and New, to your considerati'ons, wishing good Success therein, both for comfort of the Merchants, and Accomplishment of our desires. The Bill is, intituled. An Act for Policy of Assurance used amongst Mer'chants.

Sir Edward Hobby.

Sir Edward Hobby said: It was the good pleasure of this House, to referr the consideration of an Information Exhibited against a Member of this House, one of the Burgesses for the Town of Leicester; viz. Mr. Bellgrave: the Scope and purpose of which Information, pretendeth an Abuse to be done to this High Court.

The Gentleman himself was at the Committee, and did acknowledge the substance of the Suggestion, but denyed the Circumstance. Some of the Committees Censured it to be an Enormous fault, to invest himself (for so the words of the Information are) in a blew Coat: but others were of a contrary opinion, because they were satisfied upon Allegations Alleadged, that it was done ad reducendam vexationem, which had been offer'd unto him, and so he thought to right himself this way.

Besides, I am to inform the House, that this information is put in Sedente Curia, and therefore thought by the Committees some disgrace to the same. And, because this Gentleman should not take benefit of this Pardon; therefore the Information is now put in, as I said, Sedente Curia, which I wish the House to Note. And, because he should be debarred of remedy against the party, he hath therefore caused the same to be Exhibited, in Mr. Atturney-Generals name.

May it please the House, because he desireth to be heard, and being now here, that he may speak for himself, in that he told the Committees he had some special matter to deliver unto you; and if he shall be found Culpable, he would most willingly abide your Censures. But because some other Bills were to be read, of importance, this was referred over till some other time.

A Bill for continuance of divers Statutes, and repeal of some others. Mr. Francis Moor desired it might be read, and also the Exposition of the Justices upon the Statute of 39. Reginœ concerning Rogues; which if it please the House, he thought fit to be Annexed to that Statute.

Mr. Bacon speaks against a Bill and dashes it.

Mr. Bacon said: There were never yet but two Articuli; the one Articuli super Chartas, when the Sword stood in the Commons Hands; the other Articuli Cleri, when the Clergy of the Land bare sway, and that done upon deliberation and grave advise.

I beseech you remember, these are done by Judges, and privately, and perhaps in a Chamber. And shall we without scanning, or view, Enact them? It besits not the Gravity of this House. And so after a long speech, dashed it.

Doctor Stanhop and Dr. Cary, brought a Bill from the Lords, Intituled, An Act for the more Peaceable Government of the parts of Cumberland, Northumberland, Westmorland, and the Bishoprick of Durham.

A Bill to prevent the double-payment of Debts, sent up to the Lords by Mr. Comptroller and others. And a desire withall, to have a conference with some few Touching the Bill sent from them of Eye and Dunsden, to be re-united to the Mannor of Sunning.

The cause of this Conference, came from a Motion made by Mr. Serj. Harris, who said, That for some especial cause and interest, it was desired (which I learned after what it was, by Mr. Fettyplace Burgess of London) that there was an admitting of all Assurances; so the Londoners barred of their right, which they had, by reason this Eye and Dunsden were part of the Land assured to the City of London for the Loan of Twenty Thousand Pounds Lent to the Queen, to be repaid at a certain time. And, if this Act should thus pass, they were barred.

The Lords returned word, That Ten of them would meet. And so Twelve of our House were Chosen to meet them, to Morrow in the afternoon.

Mr. Bacon.

Mr. Bacon, 'upon a question that should have been propoun'ded to the House, whether the Statute 39 Elizabeth Touch'ing Charitable Uses, should be the General Act, or the 'particular Act Exhibited by Mr. Philips, said, amongst many 'other things: That the last Parliament, there were so many 'other Bills for the Relief of the Poor, that he called it a Feast of Charity. And now this Statute of 39 Elizabeth, 'having done so much good, as it was delivered to the House. 'And the Lord Keeper, having told him, that he never re 'voked but one decree of the Commissioners, we should do a 'most Uncharitable Action to repeal and subvert such a mount 'of Charity; and therefore said, That we should rather tenderly 'foster it, then roughly cry, away with it.

'I speak (quoth he) Mr. Speaker, even out of the strings of 'my Heart, which doth Alter my ordinary Form of speech; 'for I speak not now out of the Fervency of my Brain, &c. 'So he spake somthing more against the Bill, put in by Mr. 'Philips for Repeal, by reason Bishops Lands were put in, and 'Inrolments, which he said, was a good Fetch and Policy for the 'sole practices of the Chancery.

Mr. Philips against Mr. Bacon.

Mr. Philips answered, 'That he would not speak as he had 'spoken, rather out of Humor than out of Judgment; neither 'had he brought to the House a Market-Bill, or Mercers Bill 'concerning the State. And so after many perswasions for 'the Bill, and bitter Answers to Mr. Bacon, he ended with a 'desire, to put it to the Question, whether it should be Re'pealed by the publique Act, or his private Bill.

Mr. Johnson moved, That the Question might be, Whether it should be as well in the General Law, as the particular?

Glascock contra Philips.

Mr. Glascock said: 'I think the Gentleman that last spake '(Mr. Johnson a surveyor) hath better Skill in Measuring of 'Land, than Mens Consciences. I think it is a good Law, and 'fit still to stand on Foot: For if we lose Religion, Let us lose Land too. It will be a good Cause, That every Man, if not 'for Religion sake, yet for his Lands sake, which is his whole 'estate, will Abandon the setting up of those Houses again, be'cause he will not part there-with; therefore I think it in Pol'licy fit still to stand.

So after long dispute, till almost one of the Clock, it was put to the Question, Whether it shall be Repealed by the General Law of repeal, and continuance of Statutes. And the most voices were I, I, I, and so it was Agreed.

Tuesday, December the 8th

A Bill to prohibit Transportation of Ordnance.

On Tuesday, December the 8th, An Act prohibiting the Transportation of Iron Ordnance beyond the Seas, by way of Merchandize, was Read.

Sir Edward Hobby.

Sir Edward Hobby said: 'I may resemble this Bill to a Gentle'man, who told a Story of a Skilful Painter, who had Pain'ted a Tree standing in the midst of the Sea; and the Judg'ment of another Skilful Painter being asked, his Answer was, 'Valde bene sed hic non erat Locus. So I say this Bill, is an Ex'cellent Bill, the matter Foul, the request and remedy Good 'and Honest; but this is not our mean of Redress.

'Her Majesty, in the late Proclamation, took notice there'of; and no doubt but she will Redress it. And for us now, 'to enter again, in bringing in, or allowing Bills against Mo'nopolies, it is to refuse Her Majesties Gracious Favor, and 'Cleave to our own affections.

'I think therefore, if we will be dealing herein, by Petition 'will be our only Course; this is a matter of Prerogative, and 'this no place to dispute it.

Mr. Fettyplace to the same Bill.

Mr. Fettyplace said: 'I know Her Majesty receiveth yearly by Custom, for the Transportation of these Ordnance, Three Thousand Pounds by the Year; there be four kind of Ordnance now usually Transported: The first, a Faulcon, of the least Weight and Bore. The second, a Minnion, a little heavier, and of a bigger Bore. The third, a Saker, of somewhat a great'ter Bore. And the fourth, a Demy-Culvering, being of the great'est Bore.

'Now, Mr. Speaker, they that do Transport Ordnance, do Transport in this manner: If it be a Faulcon, She shall have the weight of a Minnion; and so if a Saker, the weight of a De'my-Culvering; the Reason thereof is, Because when they are brought beyond Sea, they will there new bore them to a great'ter size; as, the Saker to the Demi-Culvering-Bore.

'Besides, Mr. Speaker, Eight Tun of Iron Ordnance, will make five Tuns of good Iron.

'But perchance, it will be Objected, That if we Restrain the Transportation of Iron Ordnance, they will use Brass.

'I say, under Favour, That they cannot, because they want Brass.

'And again, where you may furnish a Ship for 200. or 300. Pounds with Iron Ordnance, you cannot furnish Her with Brass Ordnance for 1400. Pounds. And it is now grown so com'mon, that if you would send Merchandise beyond the Seas in strangers Bottoms, they will not carry them, unless you will ballast their Ships with some Ordnance.

'The Ordnance be carried to Callis, Brest, Embden, Lubeck, Rochel, and other places. All these be Confederates with Spain, and friends with Dunkirk. So that in helping them, we do not only hurt our Friends, but succour the Spaniards, their Friends, and our Enemies.

'If the Queen, would but forbid the Transportation of Ord'nance for seven years, it would breed such a Scarcity of Ord'nance with the Spaniard, that we might have him where we would: some in that time, no doubt, the Sea would devour; some would be taken, and the Store which he now hath, scat'tered, and thereby his Force weakned. They have so many Iron Ordnance in Spain out of England, that they do ordinarily sell a 100. weight of Iron Ordnance, for seven Duckets and an half, Spanish. And if the Spaniard do make it a Capital mat'ter, but to Transport an Horse or a Gennet, much more ought we to have special Care herein, when we shall hereby Arm our Enemies against our selves.

'I think therefore, to proceed by way of Bill, would favour of Curbing Her Majesties Prerogative: but to proceed by way of Petition, it is a safe Course, and pleasing; and we ought the rather to be induced thereunto, because we have already found it Successful.

Mr. Brown for the Bill by way of Petition.

Mr. Brown the Lawyer said: 'There is a Law already in the point. And that is 33 Hen. 8. Cap. 7. and 2 Ed. 6. Cap. 36. which prohibiteth the Transporting of Gun-metal. And although Guns were not then made of Iron, yet now they are. And therefore perhaps you will say, it is out of the Statute.

'But it was lately adjudged, in Worlington and Symon's Case, to be clearly within the very Letter of the Law. And I am sure, Guns are made of Gun-metal; and whosoever Transpor'teth Guns, transports Gun-metal, and it is within the danger of the Law.

'But that which I would move, is, only this; That we might be Petitioners to Her Majesty to revoke that Patent: And then Currat Lex.

Sir Walter-Rawleigh for the same.

Sir Walter Rawleigh said: 'I am sure heretofore one Ship of Her Majesties, was able to beat twenty Spaniards; but now by reason of our own Ordnance, we are hardly matched one to one. And if the Low-Countries should either be subdued by the Spaniards, or yeild unto him, upon a conditional Peace, or shall joyn in Amity with the French, as we see them dayly inclining, I say there is nothing so much threatens the Con'quest of this Kingdom, or more, than the Transportation of Ordnance. And therefore, I think it a good and speedy course, to proceed by way of Petition, lest we be cut off from our desires, either by the Upper House, or before, by the short and suddain ending of the Parliament.

Mr. Cary, for the same by Bill.

Mr. Cary said: 'We take it for an Use in the House, That when any great and weighty Matter, or Bill is here handled, we straight-ways say, It toucheth the Prerogative, and that must not be medled withal; and so, that we that come here to do our Countries Good, bereave them of that good help we may justly Administer unto them.

Mr. Speaker, 'Qui vadit planè, vadit Sanè: Let us lay down our Griefs in the Preamble of the Bill, and make it by way of Petition, and, I doubt not, but Her Majesty, being truly informed of it, will give her Royal Assent.

Secretary Herbert for proceeding by Petition, to prohibit Ordnance.

Mr. Secretary Herbert said: 'The making of Armentaria, is a Regality, only belonging to the Power of the King and Crown of England; and therefore no man can either Cast, or Transport without License. It stood perhaps with the Policy of former times, to suffer Transportation: But as the times alter, so doth the Government; and now, no doubt, but it is very hurtful and pernitious to the State. And therefore, I am of Opinion, That it is very fit this Transportation should be staid. And I concur only with them, which would have it by way of Petition, and not by Bill.

Mr. Hackwell.

Mr. William Hackwell of Lincolns-Inn said: 'I know the Authority of the worthy Councellor that last spake, will ingeminate your Censures to yeild to his Objection: Yet notwith'standing, I beseech you, to suppose him to be a man of my Condition, or me to be a man of his Sort; so I doubt not but, our Persons being equalized, the matter will soon be Decided.

'Where he faith, Transportation is necessary to aid our Friends, and retain their Alliance. I Answer, this is the Subtilty and Covetousness of our Friends, who finding the Inestimable Gain and Treasure they get by Ordnance brought from us, do not only desire them for Gain, but also, to gain to themselves Confederates, by which means Succouring our Friends, we Aid our Enemies. For look whatsoever we give them, we deduct from our selves.

'Now, let us stop this Transporation of Ordnance, and that greatly weakens their Forces, by which means, they will never be able to incounter us hand to hand. Our Ordnance, that precious Jewel of this Realm, (even worth all we have) is familiarly sold in the Countries of our Confederates, as any thing within this Land; but this being stopped, they will be forced to take Supply from their Ports to their Ships; from their Ships to the Field, and from the Field to other places.

Sir Francis Hastings for Petitioning it.

Sir Francis Hastings said: 'How swistly and sweetly Her Majesty apprehended our Griefs, I think there is no Subject but knoweth. For us then to deal in a matter so highly touching Her Prerogative, we shall not only give her Majesty just Cause of Offence, but just cause to Deny our Proceeding by Bill.

'I think, therefore, by laying open our Griefs in a Petition, it will move Her Majesty as much, being a Case of this Consequence, as our first Motion by Mr. Speaker, hath done. And therefore, I am of Opinion, there is no way but this for our safety.

Sir George Moore for Petition.

Sir George Moore said: It is a vain thing to Dispute of the matter, when the manner only is in question: and as vain to lose the matter by our long Dispute of the manner. The late Experience of Her Majesty's Love and Clemency towards us, and Care over us, striketh such an awful Regard into my Heart, I wholly dislike this Proceeding by Bill, and do only Approve of the former motion, by way of Petition.

Mr. Laurence Hide is to proceed by Bill in it.

Mr. Laurence Hide said: 'It is doubted by some, this Bill will not Pass, by reason of the suddain ending of the Parliament: For that I think, if we give not too much scope to private Bills, This Bill would quickly Pass; and I see no Reason, but we may proceed by Bill, and not touch Her Majesties Prerogative; For Her Majesty is not more careful and watchful of Her Prerogative, than the Noble Prince, King Henry 8. Her Father, and King Edward 6. Her Brother, were: Then there was no doubt nor mention made of Prerogative. And therefore I think our soundest and surest Course is by way of Bill.

Mr. Comptroller pleads for Petition.

Mr. Comptroller said: 'I wish we should deal in such manner, as we may have our desire. And that in Duty we should proceed to speak unto the Queen by way of Petition, and not by way of Bill and Contestation. We must Note, that Her Self and Her Prerogative will not be forced. And I do not hold this Course by Bill, to stand either with Respect or Duty.

Mr. Swale for the Bill.

Mr. Swale of the Temple said: 'I would but move thus much to the House: If we let slip this Law, and proceed by way of Petition, then there is no Law to Prohibit, but the Law of 33 Hen. 8. and 2 Ed. 6. and those Laws give so small a remedy, that it is no Recompence for the loss of the thing.

Serj. Harris.

Mr. Serjeant Harris said: 'It hath been thought, that the former Statutes do not reach to Ordnance made of Iron. But may it please the House to Commit the Bill, there shall be shewed to the Committee Four or Five Precedents, and late Judgments, that Iron Guns comes within these Laws.

Sollicitor Fleming.

The Bill Committed.

Mr. Solicitor Fleming said: 'The Gentleman that last spake, said very true; For it was lately in Michael's Case in the Exchequer. So it was Committed, and the time appointed for Meeting, to be this Afternoon in the House.

Mr. Belgrave moves his own Case.

Mr. Belgrave said: 'Mr. Speaker modestly forbids me to speak in mine own Case, that so nearly concerns me; but necessity compels me to Appeal to this High Court.

'True it is, there is an Information Exhibited against me in the Star-Chamber, by the procurement of an Honourable Person of the Upper House, (the Earl of Huntington) in the Name of Mr. Atturney-General, for a Misdemeanor Committed to this Court.

'The Substance of that Information I do Confess, yet I am to be an humble Suitor to this House, to understand, Whether an Information is to be Exhibited (this House sitting) against any Member thereof? And for my own part, I do submit my self to abide such Censure, as this House shall think in their Wis'domes convenient.

Sir George Moore desires there may be a Conference.

Sir George Moore viewing the Information, said: 'I find the words thereof to be against the High Court of Parliament, 'which is as well the Upper-House, as this House. And therefore I wish, there might be a Conference with the Lords therein. For this House is but Part, and a Member of the Parliament; and therefore we solely cannot Proceed.

Serjeant Harris opposes it.

Mr. Serjeant Harris said: 'In 36 Hen. 8. when Ferri's Case was, who was a Member of this House, Did we not Proceed without any Conference with the Lords? Here ought to be Libera Suffragia, and no man of this House to be Chosen by Friends, or Mediation of any Great Man. Neither ought we to be tied by any Blew-Coat in the World; but as our Persons are Priviledged, so should our Speech be. And therefore I see no Reason to Confer with the Lords, when we may proceed of our selves.

Sir Edward Hobby for the Conference.

Sir Edward Hobby said: If the Case were but plain of it self, I should be of the Gentlemans mind that last spake; but I am given to understand, and also desired to Inform the House, That this Information was put into the Star-Chamber by some kind of Order from the Lords, and therefore very convenient a Conference should be had.

Sir Francis Hastings reports the Case.

Sir Francis Hastings (Brother to the Earl of Huntington) said: To enter into consideration of this Cause by report, I will; and otherwise I cannot. I know no man but respecteth the Ho nourable Person himself. And for this Gentleman, Mr. Bellgrave, I ever took him, and so still do, to be a man of very good Carriage: To condemn him, I do not mean; but I humbly Pray, that a course for his Honour may be taken; and the matter so handled, that the Honour of the Person may be saved, the Gentleman freed from further Offence; and this Cause ended with good conclusion.

Mr. Dale said: 'Id possimus quod Jure possimus; and therefore, resting in doubt herein, the safest course is a Conference.

Mr. Tate said: 'It is not good to utter suddain Thoughts in great matters; Our Dispute may seem to have this end, either to Incur the danger of our Priviledges, by not regarding this Cause; or, to pry too neer into Her Majesties Prerogative, by Examining Informations exhibited into the Star-Chamber; wherefore I think we ought to be Petitioners, (nota verbum Petitioners) or at least, to shew our Griefs to the Lords. And if by an Order from them, as was alledged, this Information was put in, methinks, in Reason, a Conference were good, to Examine the Cause, and inform this House turly thereof.

Mr. Skipwith for Belgrave.

Mr. Skipwith the Pensioner, said: 'If I knew or did think there were any Wrong done to the Earl of Huntington, I would rather be a Petitioner for this Gentleman, unto him, than I would be a Protector of him against him.

'I know Mr. Belgrave wrote his Letter to my Lord, and that it pleased his Honour to answer him: and that he offered to follow his Honour in that fort, as is fitting for a Gentleman of his Worth: and rather His Honour, than any mans in England.

'This, I take it, may satisfy the House for Answer to the first part of the Information, which containeth a Dishonour offered to the Earl.

'For the Second, which is, Deceiving of the Burgesses: I do assure this House, they were both willing and worthy to be deceived. I know they had given their Voices, and desired Mr. Bellgrave to undertake it.

'For the Wrong to this Court, I hope this Court hath wisdom enough to Right it self, without any Course in the StarChamber: yet by your Favours, I may say thus much, That if we should Punish him for coming Indirectly to this Place, we should Punish three parts of the House; for none ought to be Chosen, but those that be resident and sworn Burgesses of the Town.

Sir Robert Wroth brings a precedent.

Sir Robert Wroth said: 'This matter needs not so much Dispute. In the last Year of Queen Mary, in the Case between Pleadal and Pleadal, it pleased the Lords of the Star-Chamber, Sedente Parliamento, to bind the one, at the Suit of the other, to appear 12 days after the Parliament; and this was adjudged to be an Infringment of the Liberties of this House.

'Mr. Davis said: The Information savours more of Wit than Malice; and therefore I think, that upon Conference with the Lords, the matter may be brought to a good end. I therefore 'humbly pray it may be put to the Question, and that the Bill may be sent for out of the Star-Chamber.

Mr. Cary said: As I take it, Mr. Speaker, the Course hath been, 'that if the House hath been desirous to see any Record, you, Mr. Speaker, should send a Warrant to the Lord-Keeper to grant forth a Certiorari to have the Record brought into this House: And upon view thereof, perhaps this matter of Dispute would have an end.

Sir France Hastings Speakers Again.

Mr. Bacon interrupts him, An I they contend a while with reproaches.

Sir Francis Hastings offer'd to speak again in this matter; but Mr. Bacon interrupted him, and told him, It was against the Course of the House. To which he Answered; He was old enough to know when, and how often to speak. To which Mr. Bacon Answered; It was no matter for that; but he needed not to be so Hot in an ill Cause. To which Sir Francis replied: In several matters of Debate, a man may speak often: so I take it is the Order. He (pointing to Mr. Bacon) talkes of Heat: If I be so hot as he was Yesterday, then put me out of doores. The only thing that I would say, is this:

'I wish a Conference may be had with the Lords, because the matter may be brought to some friendly end; For God knows what may lie in the Deck after the Parliament, and I suspect it the more, because the Information is filed, and no Process sued out.

A Conference agreed by the Lords.

Mr. Greenvil said: 'I wish that in our Conference, we do not neglect our Privileges, and that we may be a means of Mediation.

So Mr. Comptroller, and others, were sent to desire a Conference, which was agreed unto by the Lords, and the time appointed to be on Thursday Morning at Eight of the Clock.

Mr. Speaker, said, 'I am to certifie you from the Lords, of a great disorder committed by the Pages and Servants, as well of the Lords themselves, as of your Servants; So that not only Abuse is offer'd, but Weapons and Blood drawn. For remedy whereof, the Lords have given strict Commandment, That their Servants keep peaceable and quiet Order: and that neither their Pages, Attendants, nor Servants; do stand upon the Stairs, or neerer the House than the Stair-foot. 'They desire, that every Member of the House would do the like to their Servants, and so expresly to Charge and Command them. And I would move you, That you would be pleased the Serjeant might go forth, and signify so much from you unto the Company without; and all said, I, I, I.

Mr. Wiseman said: 'The disorder, Mr. Speaker speaks of, is now grown so great, that they have their Passes and Repasses; and men dare not go down the Staires without a Conductor.

So the Serjeant went and delivered the Message, and the Abuse was well Reformed.

The Bill for Assuring of a Joynture to the Countess of Sussex.

Mr. Serjeant Yelverton, Dr. Cary, and Dr. Stanhop, came from the Lords; and Serjeant Yelverton signified the Lords Desire of a Conference in the Bill for Patents made by the Queen, and Grants to her, &c. Which the Lords did the more Respect, because it was recommended to them from the House; the time appointed to Morrow Morning at Eight of the Clock: the Number 20. So after they went out, it was agreed, They should meet with a convenient Number; and then they were called in again according to the Ceremony of the House; and the Houses resolution deliver'd to them.

Mr. Serj. Harris said: Mr. Speaker; The Ancient Use hath been always to double or treble the Number. The last Committee were about Sixty. I think, by reason they were Committees, and are best informed, that they should attend the Lords. And so it was agreed. His conceipt was, Sell the great Bell to buy the little Bell a Clapper.

In the afternoon, in the House, the Bill for Fustians was to be debated; but by reason the Devonshire-Men made a Faction against it, after small Dispute, it was put to the Question; whether it should be further Disputed in? And most said, No, No; and there were some Six I, I, I, the rather for that it had a Prohibition for bringing of Millan Fustians; and also, a desire to be made a Corporation. But Mr. Francis Bacon, kept such a quoil to have the Bill concerning Charitable Uses put to the Question, which was then also to be debated, that this Bill was clean husht up.

Wednesday, December 9.

On Wednesday, December 9. A Bill for Establishing of certain Conveyances and State of Lands, betwixt one Sandis and Harris.

A Bill Touching Gavel-kind Lands, ordered to be Engrossed.

A Bill for the Erecting of a Haven on the North-part of Devonshire, ordered to be Engrossed.

A Bill for the Trinity-House, Entituled, An Act for maintenance of Shipping, and Increase of Sea-faring men, committed, and the time appointed for meeting, is this Afternoon.

A Bill for the Confirmation of the Mayor of London's Authority in St. Katharines, &c. ordered to be Engrossed.

A Bill for the True making of Cloth, was committed; the time of Meeting, to Morrow, and the place, the ExchequerChamber.

After the reading of this Bill, Dr. Newcoman offered a Proviso to be added to the Bill, for saving the Aulnager's Right, and the Queens Customs; & the House bade him keep it, & offer it to the Committee.

Sir Edward Hobbys Brief of Bellgraves Case, to be debated at the Conference.

Sir Edward Hobby offerd a Brief to the House, of the Conference that should be had with the Lords, Touching Mr. Bellgraves matter. The effect whereof being read to the House, was this, viz.

'The Conference with the Lords, must consist of two points. First, Touching an offence Committed by Mr. Bellgrave; Secondly, for the Infringing of the Liberty of the House.

'For the First, that the Commons would do nothing there 'in, until a Conference with them. For the Second, to know the reason of their Lordships appointment of the Information, and to bring it to some end. The House agreed to the points, and allowed of them.

A Bill for the more peaceable Government of the Counties of Northumberland, Cumberland, Westmorland, and the Bishoprick of Durham; the first Reading.

The points to be consider'd of, in the continuance of Statutes, were read, and offer'd still to dispute, whether the Statute of Tillage should be continued.

Mr. Johnson about the Statute for Tillage to have it repealed.

Mr. Johnson said, 'In the time of Dearth when we made this 'Statute, it was not consider'd, that the hand of God was upon us. And now Corn is Cheap, and if too Cheap, the Husband man is undone, whom we must provide for; for he is the Staple-man of the Kingdom, and so, after many Arguments, he concluded it was fit to be Repealed.

Mr. Bacon opposes it.

Mr. Bacon said, 'The Old commendation of Italy by the Poet, is, Potens viris atq; Ubere, Gleba. And it stood not with the Pollicy of the Kingdome, that the wealth of the Kingdome should be Engrossed into a Few Pasturers Hands. And, if you will put in so many Provisoes as he desired, you will make so great a window out of the Law, that we shall put the Law out of the Window. The Husband-Man is a strong and hardy Man, the good Foot-man, which is a Chief observation of good Warriours, &c. So he concluded, the Statute was not to be Repealed.

Sir Walter Rawleigh to have it repealed.

Sir Walter Rawleigh said: 'I think this Law fit to be repea'led; for many poor men are not able to find Seed to Sow so much Ground as they are bound to Plow, which they must do; or incur the Penalty of the Statute.

'Besides, all Nations abound with Corn: France offer'd the Queen to serve Ireland with Corn at Sixteen Shillings a quarter, which is but Two Shillings a Bushel; if we should sell it so here, the Plow-Man would be beggar'd. The Low-CountryMan and the Hollander, who never Sow Corn, have by their industry such Plenty, that they will serve other Nations. The Spaniard, that often wanteth Corn, had we never so much Plenty, would never be beholding to the English-Man for it, neither to the Low-Country-Man; nor to France; but will fetch it even of the very Barbarian. And that which the Barbarian hath been sueing for these 200 Years (I mean for Traficque of Corn into Spain) this King in Policy hath set at Liberty of himself, because he will not be beholding unto other Nations. And therefore I think the best Course is, to set it at Liberty, and leave every man Free, which is the Desire of a true Englishman.

Secretary Cecil of a contrary mind.

Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I do not dwell in the Country, nor am I acquainted with the Plough. But I think that whosoever doth not maintain the Plough, destroys the Kingdome.

'There was the last Parliament, great Arguments on this 'Point, and after a deliberate Disputation, the Passing of this Bill was concluded.

My Motion therefore shall be, 'That this Law may not be Repealed, except former Laws may be in Force and Revived. Say, that a Glut of Corn should be: Have we not a sufficient remedy by Transportation, which is allowed by the Policy of all Nations? I cannot be induced or drawn from this Opinion, upon Government of Foreign States; I am sure, when Warrants go from the Councel, for levying of men in the Countries, and the Certificates be returned to us again, we find the greatest part of them to be Plow-men. And excepting Sir Thomas Moore's Utopia, or some such fained Common-wealth, you shall never find, but the Plow-man is chiefly provided for; the neglect whereof, will not only bring a general, but a particular indempnity to every man.

'If, in Ed. I. his time, a Law was made for the Maintenance of the Fry of Fish; and in Hen. 7. time, for the preservation of the Eggs of wild Foul, shall we now throw a way a Law of more Consequence and Import? If we debar Tillage, we give scope to the depopulator; and then if the poor, being thrust out of their Houses, go to dwell with others, straight we catch them with the Statute of Inmates. If they wander abroad, and be stubborn, they are within the danger of the Statute of Rogues. If they be more humble and urgent Beggars, then are they within the Statute of the poor to be Whipped and Tormented: So by this means, undo this Statute, and you indanger many Thousands. Posterior dies discipulus prioris. If former times have made us wise to make a Law, let these latter times warn us to preserve such a good Law. All that I can say is, this Policy, Nature, Charity, and Honour, do desire of these Proceedings in Charitable uses.

Mr. Selby desired, that the County of Northumberland might be exempted out of the Statute, because it was so nigh the Scots; and the Country was so infested with the Plague, that, not only whole Families, but whole Villages have been swept away with that Calamity. And so he made a long Speech to that effect.

Mr. Serjeant Yelverton; and Doctor Cary came from the Lords, to desire that the Conference touching Letters Patents might be prolonged, until Friday Morning at eight of the Clock, which was Assented unto.

It was put to the Question, whether the Bill for Tillage should be Committed? And most said I, I, I. Then whether Northumberland should be exempted upon Mr. Selbies Motion? And all said, I, I, I.

Another matter which the Committees for the continuance of Statutes doubted of, was, whether Mr. Dormer's Proviso should be put into the Bill for Tillage.

Mr. Davis said: 'May it please you, Mr. Speaker, the Gentle-man is at the Door (Mr Dormer by Name) ready to attend with his Councel, to satisfy the House; and Prayed, they might be admitted; and all said, I, I, I.

Mr. Dodderige of Councel, with Mr. Dormer, said: 'Mr. Speaker, 'It pleased Her Majesty to License Mr. Dormer under Her Letters Pattents, with a Non obstante this Statute, to inclose 300 Acres of Ground. And he humbly prayeth the House, to accept and admit of this Proviso; for the Saving of his Letters Patents, the rather for these Reasons:

'1. In respect the Ground inclosed, is a small quantity.

'2. The Country is apt for Pasture, and not for Tillage.

'3. This ground is a kind of Marish ground, and too moyst and soft, and altogether unfit for Tillage.

'4. In that Her Majesty hath granted her Letters Patents, & that they concern Her Prerogative. So he delivered the Proviso, and Mr. Dormer his Letters Pattents, and went forth.

Mr. Serjeant Harris said: 'Ubi non est ordo, ibi est Confusio; Mr. Speaker, divers Gentleman stand before the Door, which breeds a confused Sound when the question is propounded. May it please you, that every man take his place. This is both seemly, and the Ancient Custom; which they all did.

Mr. Speaker said: 'I will put it to the Question, whether this Proviso of Mr. Dormer's shall be received. It was put to the Question twice, and in my Conscience, the I, I, I, were the greater number: But the Noes, Noes, would needs have the House divided. So the door being set open, no man offered to go forth.

Mr. Martyn said: 'Mr. Speaker, I have observed it, that ever, this Parliament, the Noes upon the division of the House have carried it; the Reason whereof, as I conceive it, is, because divers are loth to go forth for Fear of losing their Places; and many that cry I, I, I, will sit still with the Noes. I therefore do but move this unto the House, that all those that have given their I, I, I, would according to their Consciences, go forth. And for my part, I'le begin. And so went forth.

Sir Walter Rawleigh rose up to Answer him, but Mr. Comptroller, Sir John Fortescue, and all the House seeing them, Rose up in a Hurry to go forth, and did not hear him. Whereupon, himself and Mr. Secretary, it seemed, and they of the Noes, took some displeasure, as may appear by the Speech after. The I, I, I, were 178. and the Noes 134. so the I, I, I, got it 44 Voices. And after the House was quiet.

Secretary Cecil's Notice of the disorders of the House.

Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I am glad to see the Parliament so full, which used, towards the end, to grow thin. And therefore I think it convenient we agree of some good Orders.

'The Reputation of this House hath ever been Religiously maintained, by Order and Government; but now Error hath so crept in amongst us, that we know not what is Order, what Disorder.

'The Gentleman that last spake (meaning Mr. Martin) first brake Order; for after the Question put, and the House agreed to be divided, he spake perswadingly to draw those out of the House who perhaps meant it not.

'Besides, he laid an Imputation upon the House, that according to their Consciences, men would not so much as remove out of their places: But I think there is no man here that is so Fantastical, that though they be for the Bill, yet for their Places sake, they will not alter their Rooms: For this House is a House of Gravity, Conscience, and Religion.

'I think it therefore fit, he should answer this Imputation at the Bar; we have all this Parliament, been against Monopolies, and now we our selves Protect one: But I see that men that have desired to be Popular, without the House, for speaking against Monopolies, do also labour to be private within; but that I regard not. This I know, that good sums of mony have been profer'd for the furtherance of this Proviso.

'But now it is past, I would now move you, That because we have spent some superfluous time in this division, and because the Affairs of this Parliament cannot possibly be dispatched, so soon as the Parliament must end, because of the performance of that Gift we have given her Majesty, which is nothing, if it comes not in due time.

'Therefore, that the House would be pleased after this day, to Sit in the Afternoons, for we consume our best time now in unnecessary Disputation.

Mr. Comptroller's Reply to Cecil.

Mr. Comptroller said: 'I think that notwithstanding any thing that hath been last said, However our Orders have been heretofore broken, yet the Gentleman that spake (meaning Mr. Martyn) brake no Order of the House, by speaking: For the House favour'd him with Silence, and therefore admitted to him liberty of Speech.

'That his Speech was either Perswasive, or offer'd any Imputation to the House, I neither perceive it, or conceive it so; for it was only a Caution to the House, that former Orders were broken, and therefore now to be remedied and amended. And surely, for not removing out of Places, I have heard fault found before this time, and therefore the Gentleman is not now to be taxed.

'That this should be a Monopoly, I can see no Reason: For it hath been agreed, that Her Majesty may dispence with any penal Law; and that is no Monopoly, no more is this. And I am not of his mind, that so great sums of money have been offer'd, the quantity of Land being but little, and his Cause both good and just.

'And for my part, I do protest, I neither knew nor have heard of any. For the last part of his Motion, which was the best, to sit twice a day, I do concur with him; and will be ready, as a Member of this House, to give my Attendance.

Sir Walt. Rawleigh resents their not giving him time to Speak.

Sir Walter Rawleigh said: 'I thought I had deserved of the House, to have been heard to speak, as well as he that spake before the Division. And in that I offer'd to speak, and was not heard, I had Wrong. For him that last spake out of Humour, and not out of Judgment, notwithstanding, I think it to be a Monopoly, and the Speech to be both Perswasive, and to 'lay a great Imputation upon the House. And this is all I would have said before.

Mr. Martyn offer'd to speak, and Asked the Speaker, If he might Answer? The House cried, I, I, I. No (quoth the Secretary) you must stand at the Bar. And the House cried No, No, No.

Then Mr. Secretary desired, it might be put to the Question, Whether he should speak or No? And so it was, and not Twenty said No. Then it was put to the Question, Whether he should speak at the Bar, or No? And Mr. Brown the Lawyer stood up and said, Mr. Speaker, Par in Parem non habet Imperium, we are all Members of one Body, and One cannot Judg of Another.

So being put to the Question, there were not above twelve I, I, I, that he should stand at the Bar.

Whereupon Mr. Martyn standing in his Seat, shewed the Cause of his Speech to have been, only for the Order of the House, and not out of any Perswasive meaning that he had; For he protested, he neither knew the Man, nor the Matter.

Thursday Decemb. the Tenth

On Thursday Decemb. the Tenth, A Bill for the Denization of certain Persons, viz. Josepho Lupo, and others, was Read: And because the said Josepho Lupo had neither Father nor Mother English, the House respited the Bill.

A Bill for the Weavers, was put to the Question, and Committed; the time and place of Meeting to be this Afternoon, in the Exchequer-Chamber.

The Bill for the Assize for Wood, was Ordered to be Ingrossed.

A Bill about Gavel-kind, &c.

The Bill touching the taking away Gavel-kind-Custom in Kent; was Read.

Mr. Moore against Repealing it.

And Mr. Francis Moore said: 'He thought the Bill a very Idle and frivolous Bill, and Injurious; For, if a man take a Wife, by the Custome she shall have a Moyety; but now if we make it go according to the Common Law, she shall have but a Third part.

'So if the Father committed a Felony, and be Hanged; the Son shall not lose his Inheritance; because the Custom is, The Father to the Bough, and the Son to the Plough, which at the Common Law he should lose.

Serj. Harris to have it Repealed.

Mr. Serj. Harris said: 'I think this Bill a very good Bill; for it defeats a Custom which was first devised for a Punishment, and Plague upon the Country: For when the Conquerour came in, the Reason of this Custom, was, To make a Decay of the great Houses of the Old English; for if a man of 800.l. 'Per Annum. had eight Children, now it must be divided into eight Parts; And then, if they had Children, it must be subdivided again usque in non quantum, where, if it had gone to one, as by the Common Law, it would still have Flourished.

Mr. Boy's of a contrary mind

'Mr. Boys, amongst many Reasons shewed, It would in Kent be a great loss to the Queen, in her Subsidy; for by reason of these Subdivisions, there were many Ten-Pound men. And 'whosoever knows the state of our Country, shall find, more under Ten Pound men, than above, come to the Queen; and now, if these being divided into several hands, should now go according to the Common Law; this would make the Queen a great Loser.

The Bill is Rejected.

This Bill being put to the Question, the Noes were the greater; yet the I, I, I, would needs go forth; and upon division, it appeared, the I, I, I, were but 67. and the Noes, 138. and so the the Bill was Rejected.

A Bill to Suppress Tipling-Houses.

The Bill for suppressing Ale-houses, and Tippling-houses, was Read.

Mr. Moore.

Mr. Francis Moore offered a Proviso to the House, and shewed: 'That he was of Councel, and had a standing Fee, from the Corporation of Vintners in London; And shewed, That they were an Ancient Corporation, and had ever used (by force of divers Charters of Kings of this Realm) to sell Wine; and now by this Bill, all was inhibited. And therefore Pray'd the Proviso might be received, which was received.

Mr. Johnson against it.

M. Johnson said: 'If this Bill should Pass, it would breed a great Confusion of Government; for by this Law, the Justices of the County may enter into the Liberties of any Corporation, and License Sale of Wine and Beer. Besides, he must be Licensed by four Justices; perhaps there be not four Justices in a Corporation. Admitting Power were not given to the Foreign Justices; now when these four Justices have enabled him by this Law, they have no Power by this Law upon his misbehaviour to put him down; and so very Insufficient, and impossible to be Mended.

Sir Rob. Wroth against it.

Sir Robert Wroth said: 'The Bill is, That no Man shall, &c. but he must be allowed in the Quarter - Sessions by four Justices. And what pain and Charge this will be to a poor man, to go with some of his Neighbours 20 or 30 miles for a License: And what a monstrous Trouble to all the Justices, I refer it to your considerations.

The Speaker certified a Message from the Lords.

Sir Edward Hobby said: 'We attended the Lords this morning, touching the Information against Mr. Belgrave; and in the end concluded, That forasmuch as it concerneth Their as well as Our Privileges, they desire some time to Consult; and then will send us word of their Resolutions.

Doctor Stanhop, and Doctor Hone, brought a Bill from the Lords; Intituled, An Act for the Stablishment of the Remainder of certain Lands of Andrew Ketleby Esquire, to Francis Ketleby. And so they departed.

Mr. Spicer said: 'If I should not agree to the Substance of the Bill, I were no good Commonwealths-man. And if I should agree to the Form, I should scarce think my self a good Christian; for I may justly say of this Bill, Nihil est ubi error non est.

Mr. Laurence Hide moved, 'That in respect it came from the Lords, we would give it a Commitment.

Serj. Harris against it.

Mr. Serjeant Harris said: 'If this Bill should pass, as was well said, we all should lose the Liberties of our Corporations: And Her Majesties Justices at the Sessions, should be troubled with Brables of Ale-Houses. The Statute of Ed. 6. hath had Approbation these half Hundred Years, and I wish we may not Repeal a good Law to make a worse.

Mr. Brown against it.

Mr. Richard Brown said: 'wines heretofore have been at Ten Pound a Tun; and the Laws are, That Wines should be sold at Two Pence the Quart, and Her Majesty Receiveth One Thousand Six Hundred Pounds a Year Custom for them. If now this Statute should stand, that Four Justices should License the sale of Wines, this would be a wrong to divers Licenses, which are made by Pattentees of her Majesty, and a beggaring of all Vintners. And he that now keeps an Inn; if he pleases not the Justices, he shall be turned out. And withal, there is a Clause of disability, which is most grievous.

Sir Robert Wroth said: It seemes the House doth distast this Bill, and I doubt of the Passing of it. I would but move the House to remember, That it is an Ancient Custom, that for Reverence sake to the Lords of the Upper-House, we only deny the Bill a Commitment, and so let it lye in the Deck, and not put it to the Question for Ingrossing.

Sir George Moore against it.

Sir George Moore said: 'I will be bold to give my Reason, and leave the Consideration thereof unto you. I wish it might be Committed; for, for ought I hear yet, a Proviso might help all.

'The Old Statute is, The next Justice; this is, The Justices of the Quarter-Sessions. It is intended, that all Justices every QuarterSessions give their Attendance. There have been oftentimes Letters from her Majesties Privy-Council, and Orders from Her Majesty her self, who looketh down with a gracious Eye upon the Meanest of Her Subjects, touching these Ale-HouseKeepers.

'Therefore I wish, That we do not cast it forth, but give it the ordinary and due Consideration of other Bills, by way of Commitment.

Mr. Wiseman said: 'I am very Respectful of the Place from whence this Bill cometh; if the Parliament be short, as ther's no other likely-hood; and time so pretious with us, that we Sit in the Afternoons: and this Bill Incurable, and not to be mended; and the former Laws so Politique, that I think we shall not make a better: for my part I think it needless to be Committed, but to be put to the Question.

'For the Point, that Four Justices of the Peace should License, &c. by this Statute, though they deserve to be suppressed; yet there is no Power limited of Suppression. Besides, there is a Statute that Badgers and Loaders shall be Licensed under — Justices hands in the Quarter-Sessions. I know my self, that even when the Justices are going out of Town, and even ready to take Horse, the Clerk of the Peace will bring 40. or 50. to be signed by one: and then another, he straight 'puts to his hand, because he will not stay; and knows no more of the Man, or the Matter, than he that never read them. And so would this Statute, if it should go forwards, be Abused.

Mr. Bond moves for a Previso.

Mr. Bond said: 'If this Act pass for a Law, notwithstanding any exceptions that have been taken; I humbly desire you all, that one Proviso may be put in, and that is; That no Retainer or Servant to a Justice of Peace, be admitted to be an Ale-house-Keeper, Vintner or Victualler; unless he shall be Chosen by a Jury of Twelve Men at the Leet, or Law-day of that Burrough-Town, wherein he desireth to Victual. I know, and speak what I know very well, that more disorder, and more Misrule is usually kept in the Houses of such kind of men, than in all the Country besides, if this stand not for a Law, order may be taken for such kind of Offences.

'The Law before, alloweth two Justices, I wish these Protecting Justices may not have the same Power; for as some be Magistrates, so they are men. I know many Abuses touching Authority given to men that be Tipplers. I am a Devonshire-man, and I speak plainly from the Heart of him that hates Popery, and defies Puritanism. I add further, that I am Her Majesties Subject, to whose Sacred Self, I acknowledge my self in all duty bound, and I Pray with the Psalmist, her Enemies Confundentur.

Mr. Speaker, 'I know what I speak, and I have Reason to speak thus, by Reason of some Imputation that hath been Offer'd me by one whom in Charity, I Pray God Forgive.

Mr. Martin for putting it to the Question.

Mr. Martyn said: 'The Gentleman that last spake, it seems spake out of his Grief of mind in being galled by some Tongue-metal. And I think there is no man that feeleth blowes, but would be glad to be eased of them. I cannot therefore blame him to purge and defend himself by this Apology. But that hath led us out of the Ale-house. Yet I wish that we might make a quick Return, by putting it, without further Disputation, to the question.

It is Rejected

So it was put to the Question, whether it should be Committed, and all said No, No, but Mr. Wingfield, at which the House Laughed.

The Bill concerning Ordnance called for.

Then the Questions upon the continuance of Statutes, were offer'd to be Read. But the House called for the Bill concerning Ordnance: yet the Clerk fell to Read the Questions, but still the House cried, upon the Bill for Ordnance.

In Whom it lies to chuse what Bill shall be Read.

At length, Mr. Cary stood up and said: In the Roman Senate, the Consul always appointed what should be read, and what not; So may our Speaker, whose place is a Consul's place: If he erre, or do not his duty fitting to his place, we may remove him, and there have been Precedents for it. But to appoint what business should be handled, in my Opinion we cannot. At which Speech some Hissed.

Mr. Wiseman's Opinion.

Mr. Wiseman said: 'I Reverence Mr. Speaker, in his place: But I make great difference between the Old Roman Consuls and him. Ours is a municipal Government, and we know our own Grievances better than Mr. Speaker; and therefore'tis fit, that every man Alternis vicibus should have those Acts be called for, he conceives most fit: And all said, I, I, I.

Mr. Hackwel's Motion about it.

Mr. Hackwell said: 'I wish nothing may be done, but by Consent; that breeds the best Concordance. My desire is, The Bill for Ordnance should be Read; If you, Mr. Speaker, do not think so, I humbly Pray it may be put to the Question.

Mr. Comptroller speaks against these Disorders.

Mr. Comptroller stood up and said: 'I am sorry to see this Confusion in this House. It were better we used more Silence and spake in Order. Yesterday you ordered the Bill for the Continuance of Statutes should be Read; now in an humor, you cry Ordnance, Ordnance. I pray you, that we first Decreed, let us stick to, and not do and undo upon every Idle motion.

Secretary Cecil Composes it.

Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I will speak shortly, because it best becomes me; neither will I trouble your Patience long, because the time permits it not. It is a Maxim, Præstat otiosum esse, quam nihil agere. I wish the Bill for continuance of Statutes, &c. may be Read, and that agrees with the precedent Order of this House, and more with the Gravity thereof: yet, because this Spirit of Contradiction may no more trouble us, I beseech you let the Bill for Ordnance be Read: And that's the Houses Desire.

The Bill against Transportation of Iron-Ordnance, Gun-metal, and Shot, was Read; And

Sir Robert Wroth Informed the House, That a Ship is now upon the River, ready to go away Laden with Thirty Six peeces of Ordnance.

It was put to the Question, Whether the Statute concerning the Poor should be continued, and all cried I, I, I.

Secr. Cecil about Maimed Souldiers.

Mr. Secretary Cecil said: 'I am sorry that I have so great Occasion to Recommend to the Houses Consideration the miserable estate of Maimed Souldiers.

'War is a Curse to all People, and especially the poor Creatures that come from the Warrs Poor, Friendless, and Unhappy. I am glad you are resolved this Statute shall be kept alive; whereby in some measure, those poor maimed Souls shall be provided for; For, both Religion and Charity willeth us to fall into Consideration of Amendment.

'I do not this out of Popularity, because I have been often times taxed by the men of War, and more than any Gentleman of England. For when I have seen Souldiers deceived by their Captains, I have taxed them for it, and that makes me odious unto them. A Captain is a man of Note, and able to keep himself: but a Souldier is not.

'I wish not any to think, that I do speak of all Captains, for I make a difference between the Corn, and the Chaff. The Statute is is, That the poor Souldier must be Relieved, either by the Country where he was Born, or out of which he was 'Pressed: But if that were amended, and only to be relieved in the Country where he was Born, this would yield a more certainty and greater Relief. For in a mans Country, either Charity, Kindred, or Commiseration will breed Pity: But out of the Country, where he was Prest, that cannot be expected. For the multitude prest out of some little Shire, grows to be greater, and the Charge more than in some other three Shires. As in London, where there be many Parishes, infinite Housholds, and Numbers Prest: Besides, there be divers Shires subject to great Levies, and the division so small, that it is a meer trifle; as in Lancashire, in respect of the Vicinity to Ireland, where the Disease of the War is. If it may please you, that a Commitment may be had, I shall be ready to attend it; at which time I will speak further. And so a Commitment was appointed.

Mr. Francis Moore said: 'There is a Bill for the Reducing of the two Statutes for Souldiers, into one; it hath lain in the Deck this fortnight: If it had been Read, it might have been Committed.

Mr. Swale about the Tax for Dover-Haven.

Mr. Swale said: 'There was a Doubt, whether the Tax for Dover-Haven should be continued by force of the Statute; the Tax is of Three Pence a Tun for the burthen of every Ship: He said, That the Seamen and Merchants, for want of sufficient maintenance, were turned to Fisher-men. And the Fisher-man, if he made but two Tuns of Trayn-Oyl with the Blubber of New-found-Land Fish, this causes the Ship to be Taxed for the whole Burthen; which is grievous to the Subject: Much Money hath been Levied, It comes to at least One Thousand Marks a Year, and the Haven never the better. Nay, Mr. Speaker, it is grown into a Proverb, If a Tax be once on foot, God sheild it continues not as Dover-Haven.

Mr. Boys plèads to continue it.

Mr. Boys said: 'There was great Reason to continue the Tax, in respect of the continual maintenance of the Haven, which is the best in England for all Necessities: It will ship as many men in three hours, as any other Haven in a day. And he said, That besides former Expences, there is now above FourHundred-Pounds-worth of Stones for the Reparation thereof ready upon the Haven.

Sir John Fortescue seconds him.

Sir John Fortescue said: 'The Proverb is, Tractent fabrilia fabri. The Gentleman that first spake, had not so good Instructions, as he might have had: There be Brew-houses and Bake-houses for the Provision of Victuals for Shipping; the Haven will receive Ships of Three Hundred Tuns, and is most necessary for the passing of all Merchants: The Tax is small, and times may be when the Haven shall need a great Tax at one time; And if this should be taken away, what then? And therefore, I think it most fit to be Continued.

And the Comptroller speaks for it.

Mr. Comptroller said: 'Me thinks we take a very Imprudent Course, to go about at this present, to take away a Tax which maintains Dover-Haven: We are now in Dispute, how 'to defend our selves from the Dunkirkers, and to strengthen our own Havens. If we take away this Tax, we shall weaken this Haven, which is the most necessary Haven of England, and therefore, I would wish no man to wrong the State so much, and to be so respectless of the Good of the Navy, by speaking out of any particular humor of his own.

Sir Walter Rawleigh of the same Perswasion.

And so it was Committed.

Sir Walter Rawleigh said: 'There be divers Havens which have been Famous, and now are gone to Decay, as Tynmouth, and Setow, and Winchelsey; Rye is of little Receipt; Sandwich, (as a Burgess of that Town said this Parliament, Mr. Peake) is even a going. The Tax being imployed as it should be, I hold it both good and necessary; and there is no Trade of Fisher-men to Newfound-Land, but by this Haven of Dover, which if the Tax be taken away, and that go to Decay, Her Majesty shall lose one of the best, and most necessary Havens of England, which hath all the Commodities that Mr. Chancellor shewed, and lieth opposite to all our Enemies Countries, who may soon be with us, and we not able to resist them and help our selves, should we want this Haven. I think it therefore fit this matter should be Considered of, and Committed; And so it was.

Mr. Speaker informs the House how long they are to Continue.

Mr. Speaker said: 'I am to deliver unto you, Her Majesties Commandment; That for the better and more speedy dispatch of Causes, we should Sit in the Afternoons; which being Moved at the first here, and Her Majesty taking notice thereof, well liketh and approveth of it. And likewise, That about this day Seven-night, Her Majesties Pleasure is, This Parliament shall be ended.

The House sate this Afternoon.

A Bill was Returned in, to Confirm the Assurance of the Mannors or Farms of Sayeburie, alias, Sadgeburie, and Obden and other Hereditaments to Samuel Sande Esquire, and John Harris Gentleman, and their Heires.

A Bill for the Relief of the necessity of Souldiers, and Mariners, was Read the first time.

Mr. John Hare Moved: That Bills might only be Read the first or second time, and not put to the Question in the Afternoon.

Sir Edward Hobby. I Approve of the Motion that the Gentleman made, And I ever held this for a Rule, Manè Consilium, Serò Convivium, &c.

Mr. Richard Messenger Moved: That the Collectors for the Ten Pound, and Five Pound upon every private Bill, might be Chosen by the House; And no private Bills might be sent up to the Lords, before the Fee be paid.

The Question was in the House, Whether the Fish-mongers of London, their Proviso should be added to the Statute of Continuances. And the Fishmongers were Admitted to the Bar by their Council, which was Mr. Nicholls of the Middle Temple.

He first shewed, That the Fishmongers of London were an Ancient Corporation: And that they had ever Twelve Men as Factors for them, to buy Fish on the Sea-Coasts, and send it Fresh hither to London, to be bought of the whole Company, and so sold in the Market, whereby Fish was then far Cheaper than now it is. For now some Six Persons Ingross all to themselves, and sell it at a dearer Rate by Retail, to the utter undoing of the rest of the Fishmongers, because then every Man sold for himself.

Secondly, The Fish sold, is seldom sweet, and ever unsavory, and the Fishmongers cannot Distrain, because they be tyed up by that Statute.

Thirdly, a Subversion of the Corporation followeth thereupon, and an Extinguishment of all Grants made unto them by former Kings of this Realm, and of the Confirmation made by Her Majesty: And divers other Reasons were delivered by him.

A Bill for the Relief of the Poor.