House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 8 February 1645

DIE Sabbati, 8 die Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Dr. Wincupp.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

Mr. Harborne to be Minister of Chevering.

Ordered, That Mr. Harborne shall supply the Cure, and officiate at the Parish, of Chevering, in the County of Kent, until the further Directions of both Houses of Parliament.

The Speaker acquainted the House, "That he hath received a Letter and a Packet from the Commissioners of Uxbridge;" which were read, as followeth:

Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, with the Proceedings on the Propositions concerning the Militia.

"To the Right Honourable the Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore.

"My Lord,

"By the several Papers now sent unto you, you will see the Result of Three Days upon the Militia, and the Return of our Expectation of that full Answer which was promised us. We did not trouble you before upon this Subject, because what we had from them was but promissory, till Yesterday towards the Evening, when they gave us the long Paper; and afterwards we continued in Debate till One of the Clock in the Morning, which is the Cause the Account of it comes to you so late. Thus, my Lord, we rest

"Your Lordship's Humble and faithful Servants,

Uxbridge, Febr. 7, 1644.

"A. Northumberland.
Salisbury.
Pembrooke & M.
B. Denbigh."

Next, the Papers in the Packet was read, giving an Account of the Proceedings of the Treaty at Uxbridge.

(Here enter them.)

Answer from the H. C.

Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath returned this Answer from the House of Commons to the Message sent Yesterday:

That they will return an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Lady Delawar's Privilege, concerning a Debt sued against her at Haberdashers Hall.

Upon reading the Petition of Isabella Baroness of Ellawarr, Dowager; shewing,

"That she hath received Summons to appear at Habberdashers Hall, concerning a Debt, for which her Lands were engaged, and forfeited by the Default, who, upon the Marriage of the Petitioner's Son, had undertaken, and ought to have seen it discharged: Therefore the Petitioner humbly prayeth, that she may be allowed the Privileges of a Peer's Wife; and that her Appearance and present Business be transferred from Habberdashers Hall to the Hearing of this House, as hath been formerly allowed to Persons of her Quality."

Hereupon it is Ordered by this House, That all Proceeding concerning this Business shall be stopt; and that the Committee at Habberdashers Hall (fn. 1) do certify to this House, why the Petitioner was summoned before them at Habberdashers Hall, and why she ought not to have the Privilege of a Peer's Wife, to have Business heard in this House, before the Peers.

Ordinance for Tonnage and Poundage.

Next, the House was adjourned during Pleasure into a Committee, to take into Consideration the Ordinance for Tonnage and Poundage.

The House being resumed, the said Ordinance for Tonnage and Poundage was read the Third (fn. 2) Time, and agreed to with the Additions.

Message to the H. C. with it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Dr. Heath:

To let them know, that this House agrees to the Ordinance concerning Tonnage and Poundage, with the Additions, to which their Lordships do desire their Concurrence.

Order for Mr. Elliot's Ordinance to be in full Force;

"Whereas (fn. 2) on an Ordinance of both Houses of Parliament, in Consideration of the Losses sustained by John Elliott Esquire, for his adhering to the Parliament and otherwise, dated the 10th of June, 1644, there have been Doubts raised, whether the said Ordinance be valid; for that it is not published in Print, according to a Clause therein: Be it therefore Ordained, this present Day, by the Lords and assembled in Parliament, That the said John Elliott have as much Benefit and Privilege by the said Ordinance unprinted, as he should have had had it been published in Print the very Day of the Date thereof; any Thing in the said Ordinance to the contrary notwithstanding."

To be sent to the H. C.

Ordered, That this Ordinance be sent down to the House of Commons by the next Message, and desire their Concurrence therein; and to recommend it to them, in regard Sir John Elliott, the Father of the said Mr. John Elliott, was a Person that had merited and suffered. much for the Public Good of this Kingdom.

Paper from the Parliament's Commissioners, with their Demands concerning the Militia.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We desire that, by Act of Parliament, the Subjects of the Kingdom of England may be appointed to be armed, trained, and disciplined, in such Manner as both Houses shall think fit.

"The like for the Kingdom of Scotland, in such Manner as the Estates of Parliament there shall think fit.

"That an Act of Parliament be passed, for the settling of the Admiralty and Forces at Sea; and for the raising of such Monies, for the Maintenance of the said Forces and of the Navy, as both Houses of Parliament shall think fit.

"The like for the Kingdom of Scotland, in such Manner as the Estates of Parliament there shall think fit.

"An Act for the settling of all Forces by Sea and Land in Commissioners, to be nominated by both Houses of Parliament, of Persons of known Integrity, and such as both Kingdoms may confide in, for their Faithfulness to Religion, and Peace of the Kingdoms, of the House of Peers, and of the House of Commons, who shall be removed or altered from Time to Time, as both Houses shall think fit; and when any shall die, others to be nominated in their Places by the said Houses; which Commissioners shall have Power,

"1. To suppress any Forces raised without Authority of both Houses of Parliament, or, in the Intervals of Parliaments, without Consent of the said Commissioners, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms; and to suppress any Foreign Forces that shall invade this Kingdom; and that it shall be High Treason in any who shall levy any Force without such Authority or Consent, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms; any Commission under the Great Seal, or other Warrant, to the contrary notwithstanding; and they to be incapable of any Pardon from His Majesty, and their Estates to be disposed of as both Houses of Parliament shall think fit.

"2. To preserve the Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles.

"So for the Kingdom of Scotland.

"3. To have Power to send Part of themselves, so as they exceed not a Third Part, or be not under the Number of to reside in the Kingdom of Scotland, to assist and vote as single Persons, with the Commissioners of Scotland, in those Matters wherein the Kingdom of Scotland is only concerned.

"So for the Kingdom of Scotland.

"4. That the Commissioners of both Kingdoms may meet as a joint Committee, as they shall see Cause, or send Part of themselves as aforesaid, to do as followeth:

"1. To preserve the Peace betwixt the Kingdoms and the King, and every One of them.

"2. To prevent the Violation of the Articles of Peace as aforesaid, or any Troubles arising in the Kingdoms by Breach of the said Articles; and to hear and determine all Differences that may occasion the same, according to the Treaty; and to do further according as they shall respectively receive Instructions from both Houses of Parliament in England, or the Estates of Parliament in Scotland; and, in the Intervals of Parliament, from the Commissioners for the Preservation of the Public Peace.

"3. To raise and join the Forces of both Kingdoms, to resist all Foreign Invasion, and to suppress any Forces raised within any of the Kingdoms, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms, by any Authority under the Great Seal, or other Warrant whatsoever, without Consent of both Houses of Parliament in England, and the Estates of the Parliament in Scotland, or the said Commissioners of that Kingdom whereof they are Subjects; and that, in those Cases of joint Concernment to both Kingdoms, the Commissioners to be directed to be there all, or such Part as aforesaid, to act and direct as joint Commissioners of both Kingdoms.

"We desire that the Militia of the City of London may be in the Ordering and Government of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, in Common Council assembled, or such as they shall from Time to Time appoint, whereof the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs for the Time being to be Three; and that the Militia of the Parishes without London and the Liberties, within the Weekly Bills of Mortality, may be under the Command of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons, in Common Council of the said City, to be ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and appointed by both Houses of Parliament.

"We desire that The Tower of London may be in the Government of the City of London; and the Chief Officer and Governor thereof, from Time to Time, be nominated and removeable by the Common Council.

"We desire that the Citizens or Forces of London shall not be drawn out of the City, into any other Parts of the Kingdom, without their own Consent; and that the drawing of their Forces into other Parts of the Kingdom, in these distracted Times, may not be drawn into Example for the future.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."

The King's Commissioners desire to know how long the Militia is to be settled for, on the new Establishment.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We conceive the Propositions delivered by your Lordships concerning the Militia import very great Alterations in the main Foundation of the Frame of Government of this Kingdom, taking by express Words, or by necessary Consequence, the whole Military and Civil Power out of the Crown, without any Limitation in Time, or Reparation proposed; therefore we desire to know for what Term you intend the Militia shall be settled, in such Manner as may be a reasonable and full Security (which we are ready and desirous to give) to preserve the Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbance of the Public Peace that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles; for the better doing whereof, we are ready, by Conference, to satisfy your Lordships in any Particulars.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners will give a Conference about it.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"Our Paper given to your Lordships concerning the Militia doth not contain the Alterations mentioned in your Lordships Answer; but desire that which by the Wisdom of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms is adjudged necessary at this Time, for the Security of His Majesty's Kingdoms, and Preservation of the Peace now to be settled: And, until your Lordships shall declare an Assent unto the Matter therein expressed, we conceive it will not be seasonable to give any Answer unto the Time; and we are ready to confer with your Lordships upon what shall be offered by you to our Paper concerning the Militia formerly delivered.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."

Whether the King may except against any Person to be intrusted with the Army or Fleet.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We desire to know who the Commissioners shall be, in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land shall be intrusted; and whether you intend His Majesty shall be obliged to consent to such Persons; or whether He may except against them, and name others in their Places, of known Affection to Religion and Peace.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nich. Oudart."

The Persons to be named by the respective Parliaments of each Kingdom.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"The Commissioners, in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land shall be intrusted, are to be nominated for England by both Houses of the Parliament of England, and for Scotland by the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, as is expressed in our Paper formerly delivered to your Lordships concerning the Militia.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."

Whether the London Militia is to be independent.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We desire to know, whether your Lordships intend that the Militia of the City of London shall be independent, and not subordinate to those Commissioners in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land shall be intrusted.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

To be determined by both Houses.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"It appears, by the Proposition concerning the Militia of the City of London, that the same is to be ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and appointed by both Houses of Parliament.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary."

King's Commissioners desire Time to consider of these Propositions, as they take the whole Military and Civil Power from the Crown.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We are of Opinion, that the Propositions in your Lordships Paper contain the Alterations mentioned in the Paper we lately delivered to your Lordships; and take, by express Words, or necessary Consequence, the whole Military and Civil Power out of the Crown; which Alterations we are ready to make appear in Debate: And the Alterations being so great, we have Reason to desire to know the Limitation of Time, the Consideration of which makes the Proposition more or less reasonable.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nich. Oudart."

King's Commissioners desire to know the Names of the Persons to be intrusted with the Militia;

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We desire a full Answer to our Paper concerning the Persons to be intrusted with the Militia, it being very necessary to know the Persons before Consent can be given to the Matter; and whether His Majesty may except against any such Persons, and nominate others in their Rooms, against whom there can be no just Exception.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

and an Answer whether the London Militia are to be independent of the Commanders by Sea and Land.

"4 Febr. 1644.

"We desire an Answer to our Paper concerning the Militia of the City of London; whether the same shall be subordinate to the Commissioners in whose Hands the Forces by Sea and Land are to be intrusted. Your Lordships answer, That the same is to be ordered in such Manner as shall be agreed on and appointed by both Houses of Parliament (which yet doth not appear by the Propositions), being no Answer to that Question.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

King's Commissioners will give an Answer about the Militia.

"5 Febr. 1644.

"Having with great Diligence perused your Lordships Paper concerning the Militia, and being very desirous to come to as speedy a Conclusion in that Argument as we can; we will be ready To-morrow to give your Lordships our full Answer, which, we are confident, will give your Lordships Satisfaction concerning the Matter of the Militia of this Kingdom.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

Propositions from the King's Commissioners, for settling the Militia.

"6 Febr. 1644.

"To suppress any Forces that may be raised to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdom, or that shall invade this Kingdom, and to preserve the Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles; and that His Majesty and all His People may be secured from the Jealousies and Apprehensions they may have of Danger; we do consent, that all the Forces of the Kingdom, both by Sea and Land, shall be put into the Hands of Persons of known Faithfulness to the Religion and Peace of the Kingdom, in such Manner, and for such Time; as is hereafter mentioned.

"That the Number of these Persons be Twenty, or, if that be not accepted by your Lordships, such greater or lesser Number as shall be agreed upon between us; and that His Majesty may name Half the Persons to be so intrusted, and the Two Houses the other Half.

"That such Forts and Towns in which Garrisons have been before these Troubles, and such other as shall be agreed upon between us to be necessary for a Time to be kept as Garrisons, shall be intrusted likewise to Persons to be chosen by the Commissioners, or the major Part of them, and to be subordinate to the said Commissioners, and to receive Orders from them, and no others; and all other Places, which have been fortified since the Beginning of these Troubles, shall be left as they were before; and the Fortifications and Works slighted and demolished; and all Forces with all possible Expedition to be disbanded, that the Kingdom may be eased of that intolerable Burthen.

"That an Act of Parliament shall be passed, for the raising of such Monies, for the Maintenance of the Navy and Sea Forces, as His Majesty and both Houses shall think fit.

"That, when any of the said Commissioners shall die who was nominated by His Majesty, His Majesty shall name another; and when any shall die of those named by the Two Houses, another shall be chosen by them, and, in the Intervals of Parliament, by the major Part of the said Commissioners named by the Two Houses; and neither the one or the other to be removed but by the joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses; except it shall be desired by your Lordships, that His Majesty and the Two Houses respectively may remove the respective Persons named by them as often as they shall see Occasion; to which, if it shall be insisted on, we shall consent.

"These Commissioners, or the major Part of them, or such other Number of them as shall be agreed upon; shall have Power, by Act of Parliament, to suppress any Forces, sitting a Parliament, without the joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament, or, in the Intervals of Parliament, without Consent of the said Commissioners, or the major Part of them, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdom; and to suppress any Forces that shall invade the Kingdom; and that it shall be High Treason in any who shall levy any Forces, without such Authority or Consent, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace; that they shall have like Power to preserve the Peace now to be settled, and to prevent all Disturbances of the Public Peace, that may arise by Occasion of the late Troubles; and if any Forces shall be brought into the Kingdom without the joint Consent of the King and the Two Houses of Parliament, it shall be lawful for any Four of the said Commissioners to levy Forces, for the suppressing, resisting, and destroying, the said Forces so brought in

"We are content that this Power to such Persons shall continue for the Space of Three Years; which we doubt not, by the Blessing of God, will be abundantly sufficient to secure all Persons from their Doubts and Fears, and in which Time such a mutual Confidence may be got between His Majesty and all His People, that the Peace will be firm and lasting.

"That the Commissioners, before their Entrance upon the said Trust, shall take an Oath for the due Execution of the said Commission; and that, after the Expiration of the said Term of Three Years from the Time of the issuing the said Commission, they shall not presume to continue any Execution of the said Authority; and it shall be High Treason in any of them to execute the said Authority after the Expiration of the said Three Years; and all the Commanders in Chief of the Garrisons, Forts, and His Majesty's Ships, shall likewise take an Oath for the due Execution of their Trust; that the Commissioners shall have Power to prevent the Violation of the Articles of Peace, or any Troubles arising in the Kingdom by Breach of the said Articles, and to hear and determine all Differences that may occasion the same.

"We shall be willing that any just Privileges and Immunities be granted by His Majesty to the City of London, as being the chief City of this Kingdom, and the Place His Majesty desires to honour with His most usual and most constant Residence; but we conceive it too envious a Thing, and may prove very prejudicial to the Happiness of that great City, to distinguish it, in a Matter of so high Importance as the Business of the Militia, from the Authority that the whole Kingdom is to submit to.

"If your Lordships shall not consent to the Election of Persons in that Manner as we have proposed, Half by His Majesty, and the other Half by the Two Houses; we do then propose to your Lordships, That the said Persons, who shall have the said Powers in Manner and Form abovementioned, may be named by mutual Consent, upon Debate betwixt us; in which, Consideration may be taken for the Fitness or Unfitness of those who shall be named; and in Case that any of them who shall be thus agreed upon shall die within the said Term of Three Years, the Survivors, or the major Part of them, shall nominate and choose another in his Place who shall be deceased: This Way we should have most desired; but, in regard the Consideration of Persons may take up a long Time in Debate, which neither the Time allotted for the Treaty nor the present Distractions will permit, we do propose the former as the most expedite and certain Way, but leave the Election to your Lordships; and whatsoever shall be found deficient in the settling this according to the present Agreement, or shall be thought fit to be added to it upon any Inconveniences or Defects that shall be hereafter discovered, the same shall be mended or supplied, in such Manner as shall be thought reasonable, by the joint Consent of His Majesty and the Two Houses of Parliament.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer to their Paper about it, and that of Scotland.

"6 Febr. 1644.

"Your Lordships Paper, which we have received so late at the End of the Third Day appointed to treat upon the Militia, on which we expected a satisfactory Answer to our Demands concerning it, is very far differing from what we have proposed, and unsatisfactory to our just and necessary Desires, for securing of the Peace of the Kingdoms, and wherein we cannot but observe that the Kingdom of Scotland is wholly omitted: We do therefore insist upon our Paper formerly delivered concerning the Militia, and desire your Lordships full and clear Answer; being ready, by Conference, to remove all Objections which may be made to the contrary.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"John Thurloe Secretary.
John Cheislei Secretary."

King's Commissioners will give an Answer about Scotland, at the next Meeting.

"6 Februarii, 1644.

"We shall be ready, against the Time that the Militia is again in Order to be treated upon, to give your Lordships an Answer to your Demands concerning the Militia of the Kingdom of Scotland; the which for the present we have not had Time to do, having wholly spent these Three Days in the perfecting the Paper delivered to your Lordships this Day, and the Debate in Preparation thereof.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

King's Commissioners will give a Conference, to shew the Reasonableness of their Propositions concerning the Militia.

"6 Febr. 1644.

"We conceive the Paper delivered by us to your Lordships may justly satisfy your Lordships for securing the Peace of this Kingdom against all Forces that may any Ways endanger it at Home or from Abroad, and for securing the Performance of all Things that shall be agreed on in this Treaty; and we are ready, by Conference, to make the Reasonableness thereof appear, and to receive any Reason from your Lordships to the contrary; and as touching Scotland, we hope your Lordships will be satisfied by the last Paper delivered to you.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire an Answer about the Militia of both Kingdoms jointly.

"6 Febr. 1644.

"In our last Paper, we insisted upon our former Demands for the Militia, and offered by Conference to satisfy your Lordships of the Reasonableness of them, if any Doubts remained with you to the contrary; which we are still ready to do, they being the proper Subject of this Part of the Treaty: And whereas your Lordships have, in your Paper, referred what concerns the Kingdom of Scotland unto another Time, and seem to intend it a several Answer; both Kingdoms being united in the same Cause, and under the same Danger, and mutually providing for the joint Safety and Security of both and of each other, our Propositions are jointly made by both, and are inconsistent with a divided Answer.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms."

"Exam'r.

King's Commissioners desire a Conference about it.

"6 Febr. 1644.

"Whereas your Lordships have offered, in your last Paper, to satisfy us by Conference of the Reasonableness of your Demands, if any Doubts remain with us to the contrary; we desire to receive Satisfaction, by Conference, that it is reasonable for us to grant the Nomination of the Persons by the Two Houses only, and that the Time ought not to be limited.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Dani'l Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire a full Answer to their Paper, in Writing.

"6 Februarii, 1644.

"As we have given to your Lordships our Propositions for the Militia of both Kingdoms in Writing, so do we again desire your Lordships full and clear Answer to them both in Writing; and we are ready to answer any Doubts you shall make upon them, in Order as we delivered them, and as they do relate to both Kingdoms; but we cannot treat upon your Lordships Answer, which divides them.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."