House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 1 February 1645

DIE Sabbati, 1 Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Hodges.

Ds. Grey, Speaker.

Letters and Papers concerning the Treaty.

The Speaker acquainted this House, "That he hath received a Letter, directed thus,

"For the Right Honourable the Lord Grey of Werke, Speaker of the House of Peers pr Tempore."

The said Letter was read, as followeth. (Here enter.)

Next the Paper delivered to them from the King's Commissioners was read. (Here enter it.)

Next, the Paper which the Commissioners of the Parliament delivered to the King's Commissioners, was read. (Here enter it.)

Next, another Packet, directed to the Speaker, [ (fn. 1) was read,] with divers Papers concerning the Progress of the Treaty. (Here enter them.)

Message from the H. C. with an Alteration in the Ordinance about the Treaty.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Phillip Stapilton; which consisted of these Particulars:

1. To desire Concurrence in an Alteration in the Ordinance for giving Power to treat with the King's Commissioners. (Here enter it.)

Read, and Agreed to.

about the Scots Army moving Southward;

2. To desire Concurrence, That the Scotts Commissioners be (fn. 2) desired, that the Scotts Army may march Southward.

Agreed to.

3. That it be referred to the Committee of both Kingdoms, to prepare a Letter for that Purpose, for the Advance of the Scotts Army Southward; and to (fn. 3) confer with the Scotts Commissioners about the same.

Agreed to.

and with Ordinances, &c.

4. An Ordinance for Advance of One Thousand Pounds to the Garrison of Portsmouth. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

5. An Order for paying Five Pounds apiece to Sir Wm. Waller's Surgeons. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

6. An Order for adding divers Persons to the Committee, in the Counties of Cardigan, Pemb. and Carmarthen. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to all the Particulars of this Message.

Message from the H. C. to expedite the Ordinance for the Army to be under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Anthony Erby Baronet:

To desire their Lordships would take into Consideration the Ordinance formerly brought up, concerning the establishing the Army.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take this Ordinance into Consideration, and return an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Countess of Banbury, a Pass.

Ordered, That a Pass shall be given, for permitting the Countess of Banbury to come to London, from Dover, without Interruption; and that a Coach and Six Horses may be suffered to go and bring her up.

Committee to examine the Author, &c. of The Parliament Scout.

Ordered, That the Lord Admiral, Earl of Manchester, Earl of Stamford, Lord Howard, and the Lord Willoughby, are appointed to meet this Afternoon, and examine the Persons that are in Custody for making and printing The Parliament Scoutt.

Order for Protestant Lords Abroad to come Home and attend the Parliament.

Ordered, The Lord Admiral, Earl of Kent, (fn. 4) Earl of Manchester, Earl of Stamford, Earl of (fn. 5) Bolingbrooke, Lord Howard, and Lord Willoughby, or any Three of them, shall consider of an Order, to be written to such Lords that are Protestants, and live in Foreign Parts, to attend the Parliament by a certain Day; or else their Estates shall be sequestered.

To meet when they please.

Ordinance for the Army to be under the Command of Sir T. Fairfax.

Next, the Ordinance concerning the establishing of the Army, was read the Second Time, and Ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House, and to be considered of on Tuesday Morning next.

Letter from the Commissioners from both Houses for the Treaty.

For the Right Honourable the Lord Grey of Werke, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore.

My Lord,

According to your Commands, we came hither the last Night. This Afternoon we met upon the Treaty, and each Part made known unto other their several Powers; the Copies of the Papers then shewed were taken by mutual Agreement, and we have sent them unto you here inclosed: After they were read, we gave in a Paper to the Persons sent hither by His Majesty, a Copy whereof we have likewise sent unto you. We shall, according to our Duty, give you frequent Account of our Proceedings in your Service.

Your Lordship's

"Humble and faithful Servants,

"A. Northumberland.
Pembroke & Mount.
"Salisbury.
B. Denbigh.

The Scotts Commissioners Paper, being yet not fully ready, shall be sent by the next Messenger."

King's Commission, authorizing His Commissioners to treat with those from both Houses.

"CHARLES R.

Whereas, after several Messages sent by Us to the Lords and Commons of Parliament assembled at Westm. expressing Our Desire of Peace, certain Propositions were sent from them, and brought unto Us at Oxford, in November last, by the Earl of Denbigh and others; and, upon Our Answers, Messages, and Propositions to them, and their Returns to Us, it is now agreed that there shall be a Treaty for a safe and well-grounded Peace, to begin at Uxbridge, on Thursday the Thirtieth of this Instant January, as by the said Propositions, Answers, Messages, and Returns, in Writing, may more fully appear; We do, therefore, hereby appoint, assign, and constitute, James Duke of Richmond and Lenox, William Marquis of Hertford, Thomas Earl of Southampton, Henry Earl of Kingstone, Francis Earl of Chichester, Francis Lord Seymer, Arthur Lord Capell, Christopher Lord Hatton, John Lord Culpepper, Sir Edward Nicholas Knight One of Our Principal Secretaries of State, Sir Edward Hide Knight Chancellor and Under Treasurer of Our Exchequer, Sir Richard Lane Chief Baron of Our said Exchequer, Sir Thomas Gardiner, Sir Orlando Bridgman, Mr. John Ashburnham, and Mr. Jeffery Palmer (together with Dr. Richard Steward upon the Propositions concerning Religion), to be Our Commissioners touching the Premises; and do hereby give unto them, and to any Ten or more of them, full Power and Authority to meet, and on Our Part to treat, with Algernon Earl of Northumberland, Phillip Earl of Pembroke & Mountgom'y, William Earl of Salisbury, Bazill Earl of Denbigh, Thomas Lord Viscount Wenman, Denzill Hollis, William Pierrepont, Esquires, Sir Henry Vane the Younger Knight, Oliver St. John, Bulstrode Whitlocke, John Crewe, and Edmond Prideaux, Esquires, for the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England at Westm.; and John Earl of Loudon Lord Chancellor of Scotland, Archibald Marquis of Argile, John Lord Maytland, John Lord Balmerino, Sir Archibald Johnston, Sir Charles Erskin, George Dundas, Sir John Smith, Mr. Hugh Kennedy, and Mr. Robert Berclay, for the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland (together with Mr. Alexander Henderson upon the Propositions concerning Religion), or with any Ten or more of them, upon and touching the Matters contained in the said Propositions, Answers, and Messages, or any other, and according to the Manner and Agreement therein specified, or otherwise, as they, or any Ten or more of them, shall think fit; and to take all the Premises into their serious Considerations, and to compose, conclude, and end, all Differences arising thereupon, or otherwise, as they, or any Ten or more of them, in their Wisdoms shall think fit; and, upon the whole Matter, to conclude a safe and well-grounded Peace, if they can; and whatsoever they, or any Ten or more of them, shall do in the Premises, We do by these Presents ratify and confirm the same.

Given at Our Court at Oxford, the Eight and Twentieth Day of January, in the Twentieth Year of Our Reign, 1644.

By His Majesty's Command.

"Edw. Nicholas."

Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland.

January the 30th, 1644.

We are directed, by our Instructions, to treat with your Lordships, upon the Propositions concerning Religion, the Militia, and Ireland, Three Days apiece (alternis vicibus), during the Space of Twenty Days, from the Thirtieth of January, beginning First with the Propositions of Religion; and accordingly we shall deliver to your Lordships a Paper To-morrow Morning upon these Propositions."

Letter from the Commissioners of both Houses, about their Quorum, and for some Papers to be sent them.

For the Right Honourable the Lord Grey of Werke, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore.

My Lord,

You will perceive, by the Papers herewith sent you, the Progress we have made in the Treaty. By One of them, you will find a Desire to be satisfied of the Power for any Ten of us to treat, which is not in our Ordinance, though it be in our Instructions: We have therefore transcribed that Ordinance, inserting only some few Words whereby that Power of the Quorum may be therein expressed; which, if it stand with your Pleasure, we desire may be passed, and speedily sent unto us. We are bold to put you in Mind of dispatching to us the Bill for abolishing Episcopacy, with the Alterations according to the Third Proposition, that we may deliver it in, as we have already done the Directory, and the Votes passed both Houses concerning Religion. Thus, having nothing more to trouble you with at this Time, we rest,

"Your Lordship's humble Servants,

Uxbridge, ultimo Januarii, 1644.

Pembroke & Mount.
B. Denbigh.
"Salisbury."

Paper from the King's Commissioners, concerning their Power for treating, and for some Papers.

Ultimo Januarii, 1644.

We conceive, our Power being to treat upon the Propositions brought by the Earl of Denbigh and others, and those Propositions being sent from the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, there need no Mention of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms in that Place; but that our Power is ample, to treat with your Lordships upon the whole, both by express Words, and other general Words in the Commission, which give Power to treat upon those Propositions or any other; which general Words are not observed by your Lordships in your Paper; and our Power is, to treat with the Lords and others, authorized for the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, by Name: But, since you insist upon it, it shall be altered by Tuesday next; and, in the mean Time, if your Lordships please, we desire the Papers, promised Yesterday in the Paper delivered by the Earl of Northumberland, may be delivered unto us, that there may be as little Loss of Time as may be.

By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

Exam'r,

"Jo. Thurloe Secretary.
Will'm Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
"Nic. Oudart."

Papers from the Parliament's Commissioners, about the Propositions concerning Religion and Church Government.

31 Januarii, 1644.

According to the Paper delivered by us unto your Lordships Yesternight, we do now offer these Propositions following, which concern Religion:

"That the Bill be passed, for abolishing and taking away of all Archbishops, Bishops, &c. according to the Third Proposition.

That the Ordinances concerning the Calling and Sitting of the Assembly of Divines be confirmed by Act of Parliament.

That the Directory for Public Worship, already passed both Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Propositions concerning Church Government, hereunto annexed, and passed both Houses, be enacted as a Part of Reformation of Religion and Uniformity, according to the Fifth Proposition; that His Majesty take the Solemn League and Covenant, and that the Covenant be enjoined to be taken according to the Second Proposition.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniell Earle Secretary."

31 Januarii, 1644.

That the ordinary Way of dividing Christians into distinct Congregations, and most expedient for Edification, is by the respective Bounds of their Dwellings.

That the Minister and other Church Officers, in each particular Congregation, shall join in the Government of the Church, in such Manner as shall be established by Parliament.

That many particular Congregations shall be under One Presbyterial Government.

That the Church be governed by Congregational, Classical, and Synodical Assemblies, in such Manner as shall be established by Parliament.

That Synodical Assemblies shall consist both of Provincial and National Assemblies.

"Exam'r,

Jo. Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniell Earle Secretary."

About the Power of the King's Commissioners for treating.

Jan. 31th, 1644.

"Having considered your Commission and Power from His Majesty, given in last Night by your Lordships; we find that you are authorized to treat only upon certain Propositions, sent to His Majesty from the Lords and Commons of Parliament assembled at Westm. and upon His Majesty's Answers, Messages, and Propositions to them; and their Returns to His Majesty, from His Majesty's loyal Subjects assembled in the Parliaments of both His Kingdoms, are mentioned to be sent to His Majesty from the Lords and Commons of Parliament assembled at Westm. and upon His Majesty's Answers, Messages, and Propositions to them, and their Returns to His Majesty, that a Treaty is to begin; and wherein we also observe, you have no Power thereby to treat upon the Propositions sent to His Majesty from His humble and loyal Subjects assembled in the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, and the Answers, Messages, and Propositions, sent from His Majesty to the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England at Westm. and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland then at London, and their Returns to His Majesty. We desire these Defects may be cleared, and speedily amended.

Exam'r,

John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary."

To proceed in the Treaty.

31 Januarii, 1644.

"In Answer to your Lordships Paper concerning your Power to treat; we are content to proceed in the Treaty with your Lordships, in Expectation that the Defects mentioned by us in our Paper shall be supplied by Tuesday next.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary."

"Ultimo Januarii, 1644.

King's Commissioners desire to fee the Parliament's Commissioners Instructions.

We having perused the Power granted to your Lordships in the Paper delivered by the Earl of Northumberland, and finding the same to relate to Instructions; we desire to see those Instructions, that thereby we may know what Power is granted to you; and we ask this the rather, because, by the Powers we have seen, we do not find that your Lordships, in the Absence of any One of your Number, have Power to treat.

"By Command of His Majesty's

Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary."

Any Ten of the Parliament's Commissioners impowered to treat.

31 Januarii, 1644.

By our Instructions, we, or any Ten of us, whereof some of either House of the Parliament of England and some of the Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland to be present, have Power to treat with your Lordships.

Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Erle Secretary."

Parliament's Commissioners Answer to the King's Commissioners, desiring to fee their Instructions.

Ultimo Januarii, 1644.

"Whereas your Lordships have expressed unto us a Desire of seeing our Instructions, to know what Power is granted us, and this the rather, because you say you find not, by what you have seen, that, in the Absence of any One of our Number, we have Power to treat; to this we return in Answer, That, since the Paper already delivered in by us, declaring that, by our Instructions, any Ten of us, whereof some of either House of the Parliament of England and some of the Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland to be present, had Power to treat with your Lordships, hath not given you Satisfaction in the Particular of the Quorum; we shall send unto the Two Houses of Parliament, to have the Quorum inserted in the Commission, and do expect the Return of it so amended within Two or Three Days, when we shall present it unto your Lordships: But as for your Desire in general to see our Instructions, it is that for which we have no Warrant; nor is it at all, as we conceive, at all necessary or proper for us so to do, for that the Propositions upon which we now treat have been already presented from the Parliaments of both Kingdoms unto His Majesty; and whatsoever is propounded by us in order unto them is sufficiently warranted, by what both Parliaments have done in the passing and sending of those Propositions, and by the Commissions authorizing us to treat upon them already shewn unto your Lordships; so as there can be no Need to shew any other Power.

Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary."

Paper from the King's Commissioners, for Demands and Answers to be delivered in Writing.

Ultimo Januarii. 1644.

We desire, to the End there may be greater Freedom in Debate (which we conceive will much conduce to the happy Conclusion of this Treaty), that nothing may be understood to be concluded on either Side, but what is delivered in Writing, according as your Lordships have begun: And we Declare, That what shall be delivered in Writing, upon any Proposition, or upon any Part of a Proposition, is not to be binding or prejudicial to either Party, if the Treaty break off upon any other Proposition, or Part of any other Proposition.

"By Command of His Majesty's

Exam'r,

Commissioners.

"John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary.
"Wm. Dugdale.
"Nic. Oudart."

Answer.

31 Januarii, 1644.

We shall deliver our Demands and Answers in Writing; and desire your Lordships to do the like.

Exam'r,

John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniel Earle Secretary."

Ordinance for the Parliament's Commissioners, or any Ten of them, to trust with the King's Commissioners.

Be it Ordained, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That Algernon Earl of Northumberland, Phillip Earl of Pembrooke and Mountgom'y, William Earl of Salisbury, Bazill Earl of Denbigh, Thomas Lord Viscount Wenman, Denzill Hollis, Wm. Pierrepont, Sir Henry Vane Junior, Oliver St. John, Bulstrode Whitlocke, John Crewe, and Edmond Prideaux, shall have Power and Authority, and are hereby authorized, to join with the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland, together with Alexander Henderson upon the Propositions concerning Religion only, or any Ten of them, whereof some of either House of the Parliament of Engl. and some of the Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland are to be present, to treat with the Lord Duke of Richmond, the Marquis of Hertford, the Earl of Southampton, the Earl of Kingston, the Lord Dunsmore, Lord Capell, Lord Seymor, Sir Christopher Hatton, Sir John Culpepper, Sir Edward Nicholas, Sir Edward Hide, Sir Rich'd Lane, Sir Orlando Bridgman, Sir Thomas Gardiner, Mr. John Ashburnham, and Mr. Jeffery Palmer, or any Ten of them, upon the Propositions formerly sent to His Majesty (for a safe and well-grounded Peace), from His Majesty's humble and loyal Subjects assembled in the Parliaments of both Kingdoms, together with Dr. Stewart upon the Propositions concerning Religion only, and upon His Majesty's Propositions, according to such Instructions as have been given to them, or as they from Time to Time shall receive from both Houses of Parliament.

Exam'r,

John Thurloe Secretary.
"Daniell Earle Secretary."

Order for 1000l. for Cloaths for the Garrison of Portsmouth.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the Thousand Pounds formerly ordered to be advanced and paid, out of Habberdashers Hall, to the Garrison of Portesmouth, be forthwith paid to the said Committee accordingly; and that they do give Credit for Five Hundred Suits of Cloaths, to be provided, and forthwith sent, to the Garrison of Portsmouth, over and above the said Thousand Pounds."

Order for an Allowance for Sir W. Waller's Surgeons.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That an Allowance of Five Pounds apiece shall be made, to the several Chirurgeons that are forthwith to go with the Forces under the Command of Sir William Waller; and it is referred to the Committee at Habberdashers Hall, forthwith to supply the said Parties with Five Pounds apiece."

Committees for Cardiganshire, &c.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That James Lewis of Cardigan Esquire, David Lewis of Girnos, Thomas Evans, Thomas Lloyd of Guernvilig, and John Lloyd of Veyrdref, Gentlemen, be added to the Committees of Cardiganshire, Pembroke, and Carmarthenshire."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9^a Monday next.