Appendix: poor laws, 16 February 1831

Die Mercurii, 16 °Februarii 1831.

[171]

The Marquess of Salisbury in the Chair.

John Grey Esquire is called in, and examined as follows:

Where do you reside?

At Milfield Hill, in Northumberland.

Are you a Magistrate?

I am, for the County of North Durham; though I do not reside in that County, but on the Borders of it.

Have you paid much Attention to the Condition of the Labourers in your Part of the Country?

I have them constantly under my Eye, both as an Occupier of Land and as a Magistrate.

Are you acquainted with the State of Labour at all in the Southern Districts?

I have been frequently in various Counties in the Southern Districts, and have paid some Attention to them; not so much from my own Knowledge as from Communications with other Persons.

In your Opinion, is the Condition of the Labouring Classes in your own County preferable to that of the Labourers in the South?

Very much so, I think.

To what particular Cause do you attribute that?

I apprehend that it may be ascribed, in a great Measure, to the different Habits of the People; perhaps, in some Measure, to their Education and better Information-their Intelligence; but chiefly, I should think, to the Manner in which they are engaged, and in which they are paid their Wages on Farms. I speak of the Agricultural Labourers.

Will you state the Mode of hiring and Service in your Part of the Country?

The Mode of hiring Farm Servants in my Part of the Country is this: each Farm Servant who is a Householder is provided with a Cottage and a Garden upon the Farm on which he is hired to work; his hiring is from the May of one Year to the May of another, annually; and his Payment is given very much in Grain, and in other Things, which he himself requires for the Use of his Family; he has a House and Garden free from Rent; he has a Cow kept upon his Master's Farm; he has a certain Quantity of Grain given to him, a certain Quantity of Wool given to him, and some Money for himself; and then the younger Branches of his Family are employed upon the Farm: so that the Wages and the united Earnings of the Family, under the Management of the Mother or Housekeeper, if they are frugal, give them a comfortable Income; and it is rare that any of them apply to the Parishes for Relief.

Have you got a Statement of the Amount of Wages at present paid?

I have. The Wages, according to the present Price of Grain, is estimated to amount to about 38£. a Year, or perhaps I may take it at 35£. a Year, the Amount of the Gains of a married Man.

Have the goodness to state the different Heads of Payment received by Labourers?

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The First Article is Thirty-six Bushels of Oats, 6£. 12s.; Twentyfour Bushels of Barley, 5£. 12s.; Twelve Bushels of Peas, 3£.; Three Bushels of Wheat, 1£. 5s.; Three Bushels of Rye, 15s.; Thirty-six Bushels of Potatoes at 1s. 6d., 2£. 14s.; Twenty-four Pounds of Wool, which is a very useful Article, for the Women are employed in spinning it into Yarn and knitting it into Stockings, or send it to be woven into Blankets, when they would be doing nothing else, 1£.; Cow's Keep for the Year, 9£. (the Cows are kept in the Master's Pasture, and they have an Allowance of Hay); a Ton of Hay, and as much of the best Straw as they wish to consume; or if they do not get Hay, they have an Equivalent in Turnips. There is a Cowhouse always annexed to the Cottages, in which those Cows are kept by themselves; then there is a Cottage and Garden, which I have estimated at 3£., though that does not go out of the Farmer's Pocket, because the Cottage having been once built by the Landlord, the Farmer has no Expence but to keep it in Repair, therefore, though it is worth 3£. to the Labourer, the Farmer does not pay that Sum out of his Pocket. Coals, leading from the Pit, 2£. 8s.; that is done by Farmers; according to the Distance that is different; in some Situations it is less, in some others it is more. The Payment in Cash 3£. 10s. That amounts to 38£. 16s., or nearly 15s. per Week; but the Price of Grain upon which the Money Value of the Wages depends, is higher at the present Time than the Average of Years would amount to. That Average would be about 35£. a Year. It is worthy of Observation, however, that the Value of the Grain herein stated is exactly what the Farmer could obtain for it in the Market, but produces to the Servant a much greater Quantity of Meal than the same Sum would purchase for him in small Quantities at a Retail Shop. Then there are Boys employed at Three, Four, Five, Six or Eight Shillings a Week, as they happen to be grown up; and as it is a District in which Turnips are more cultivated, and particularly cleaned and attended to, the Females work in the Field very much; and, in the general way, their Situation is very good. One very obvious Benefit arising from that Mode is, that it gives to the Hind, as the Farmer's Servant is called, the combined Benefit of occupying Land, as he has his Garden and his Cow supplied to him, without the Risk of doing it, and with the other Benefit of having in his Service regular Employment throughout the Year.

How many Hinds are there generally hired to an Arable Farm of a Hundred Acres?

That must depend very much upon the Rotation pursued in different Parts of the Country, and also on the Nature of the Soil. If there is a strong Soil, which requires a great deal of working, and is seldom in Grass, it requires a greater Number of Hinds than where the Land is allowed to lie Two or Three Years in Grass; but, upon an Average Farm, I should say it would require One Man to about Forty Acres. That, however, is over and above the extra Labour of the Woman and the younger Part of the Family, who are employed in the different Branches.

Do you mean One Hind or One Man?

I mean One Hind; there will be other occasional Workers.

By a Hind, you mean a Man hired by the Year?

Yes.

How many extra Servants are there employed besides the Hind?

That is a Question I can hardly answer. If by that are intended the Persons employed in Harvest, there may be a Hundred one Day, and very few the next; in regular Work, about One regularly-hired Hind from one End of the Year to the other, for about Thirty-five or Forty Acres, besides extra Labour. It must depend so much upon the Quantity of Hay made, and the Quantity of Corn, that it is not very easy to give an Answer.

You stated that the Family of the Hind are employed; at how many do you calculate the Family of a Hind upon the Average?

[173]

It varies. Each Hind is expected to produce One Female Worker, or Boy, to do the lighter Operations of the Farm at a lesser Rate of Wages. A Shilling a Day during the Harvest, which commonly lasts about Thirty Days, and Eight-pence a Day at other Seasons, including the Winter. He is bound to provide One when it is wanted; when they have Two or Three more, those are employed, or not, as Occasion requires; and if they are employed, they are employed generally at a higher Rate of Wages than the one who is regularly employed.

What is the Mode of Life of a Hind as to Food?

The Grain which he stipulates for, and the Quantities of which I have stated, is given to him always in advance, at the Beginning of each Quarter. He receives One Quarter of his Allowance in Grain; and there are a great many small Mills in the Country at which it is ground at a very cheap Rate. In this Way they are provided with a Sufficiency for their Family within their own Houses,-Meal, Potatoes, and so on. They seldom have occasion to go to purchase any Article they require, unless it is their Tobacco and Tea, if they indulge in that, to the Village or Town; and to that we are indebted for the great Sobriety and domestic Habits of the People, for their leisure Hours are occupied in the Care of their Gardens; and having very little Inducement to go away, not having their Wages paid in Money, they are free from the Temptations of spending them in the Alehouse; and the People live in a State of remarkable Sobriety and Simplicity.

What Stock does a Hind usually keep?

Each Hind has One Cow: it sometimes happens that if a Man has more than One Son engaged with himself, he has a Second Cow, which Cow is in part of their Wages; but there is always One Cow to One House; and the Refuse of their Family, the Produce of their Garden and other Things, and the small Potatoes they have, enable them regularly to fatten Two Pigs in the Year, which is a great Assistance to them.

Do they drink Beer?

Very rarely; they have Milk in their own Houses; and their Food is generally very different from that of the Peasantry in the South; their Breakfast is regularly Porridge of Oatmeal and Milk: then they have their Bacon and their Bread and their Potatoes.

Do they brew or buy the Beer they drink?

I know of no Instance of their brewing; when they have it, it is supplied by the Master in Harvest Time; but it is not very much which is given to them.

Do they drink Spirits?

Not much; they are generally very sober. In the Experience I have on my own Farm, I never remember to have seen One Man that was intoxicated. It may happen, once or twice a Year, that they have occasion to go to a Fair to buy a Pig, and they may drink a little; but their Habits are generally very sober.

Do Marriages take place generally at a very early Period?

Not very early. There is one Check which I think is very salutary, the Custom of being possessed of a Cow. It is not considered a very reputable Thing for a young Man to marry unless he can be so independent as to furnish a House and get a Cow: when they are able to purchase a Cow and furnish a House, they have a degree of Independence which enables them to face the World and set up for themselves. It certainly does happen sometimes that there are early and improvident Marriages, especially if there is a Child in the Way; that commonly ends in a Marriage; but in such Cases it is not unfrequent that there is that Connection between the Master and Servant, that the Master may either lend him a Cow of his own until he is able to get one, or give him a little Assistance in purchasing it, 'till he is able to work it out. I have done that, and prefer that Mode, because it is desirable to let a Man have a Feeling of having Property of his own; for by so doing, you encourage a Spirit of Independence.

Are the Hinds fond of changing their Service?

Not generally. If they get into a good Situation, or under a good Service, it is attended with Inconvenience; there are local Attachments and Habits which are formed, that they do not lightly break through. They are of course changing occasionally.

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Have you any Statement of the length of Service of the different Individuals for any particular Period?

Yes; I have made a Statement, thinking that Question might perhaps be asked of the length of Service of the Hinds upon one particular Farm on which there are Thirteen Men: the first has been Twenty-five Years in that Place; the second, Twelve; the third, only One; the next, Thirty; the next, Nine; the next, Fourteen; the next, Four; the next, Twenty; the next, Twelve. The Average, however, is Thirteen Years Residence under the same Master in the same Place.

Can you state what half-yearly Settlement was made with those Individuals at the End of the Year?

I have not here the Statement of their Earnings for the Amount of the Year, but I have a Statement of what they had left, which they did not find it necessary to draw out of their Masters Hands during the Course of the Half Year: they have nothing like a weekly Payment of Money. There is a Ledger Account kept by the Steward or Bailiff of the Farm, and on the Saturday Night whatever Money they receive, or whatever Days the extra Hands have been employed during the Week, such as Boys or Girls, are entered in his Book, and there is an Account made up each Half Year. It is generally an Object to them to live as frugally as they can, and to have a very good Account at the Settling Time; they are settled with on the 12th of May and 12th of November. I find that at Martinmas last the first Person here had to receive from his Master 8£. 3s. 6½d.; the second, 15£. 0s. 4½d.; that was a Man who had a Son working at weekly Wages; this Amount they had left in their Master's Hands, and had to draw out in One Sum to pay their Shoe Bills and whatever they wanted. The next, 9£. 7s. 11½d.; the next, 5£. 5s. 9½d.; 7£. 14s. 4½d.; 23£. 2s. 2½d.; in that Case the Man had Two Sons, the one receiving 5s. a Week, and the other 4s. a Week, and a certain Quantum of Corn besides; they are always anxious to have as much paid in Kind as will keep them out of the Market; if they conceive they have not that from the Men's Wages, they are desirous to have it on the Sons; in this Instance the young Man had so much Grain and 4s. a Week, instead, probably, of 8s. a Week. The next is 4£. 3s. 11d.; 6£. 12s. 4½d.; 7£. 2s. 5½d.; 5£. 15s. 1d.; 5£. 16s. 7d.; 4£. 9s. 10½d.; then comes one who was in Debt to his Master 7£. 9s. 8d.; the Reason of this Person being indebted to his Master, instead of having a Sum of Money to receive from him, was this, he had had the Misfortune to lose a valuable Cow by Death, and being unable to purchase another, having a large Family, was indebted to his Master for the Loan of 10£. to enable him to do so, which Loan it is understood he is to pay off by Instalments, or as he can afford, which, as his Family gets up to be useful, he will have it in his Power to do; the Existence of this kind of Confidence and Accommodation may be adduced as one of the beneficial Effects of the System herein explained; a Master in such Case frequently gives the Servant the Use of one of his Cows, until he can procure one for himself; but the Servant is always anxious to have the Credit of having a Cow of his own; and it would be absurd not to give every Encouragement to the Maintenance of so laudable a Spirit.

Have they often recourse to Parochial Relief?

No, very seldom. It may further be worthy of Remark, that only Two in the foregoing List ever received Parochial Relief; one who was disabled by Illness from working for nearly Three Years; and another whose Father died léaving a Widow and Four very young Children, of whom he was the eldest; but since the Time that he was Sixteen Years of Age, the whole Family have been supported by their own Industry; he was at first assisted by his Master in the Purchase of a Cow, which is now cleared off, and the Family are in good Circumstances.

Do they generally make any great Savings against old Age?

[175]

No, I am not aware that they do; but they generally, as the Family live together, have some Provision in their old Age; and the Parents are very often assisted and supported by their Children in such Cases. The Mother of this young Man, whose Case I have just mentioned, is now getting to be an old Woman, but of course they do not think of applying to the Parish for her, as long as he is unmarried and able to keep his Condition as a Hind; they have enough for the whole Family.

Do they feel a Pride in supporting their Relations who are disabled?

In general they do; but the Master generally supports his Servants in Time of Sickness; the Man being hired for the Year, his Wages go on, though he is unable to work for several Weeks together; he has no Deduction made from his Wages by his Master: that may appear a little hard perhaps on the Individual Master, but it comes to the same thing, whether he supports his own Servant, or is called on to contribute to the Support of all Persons in similar Situations in the Parish; and it does not subject the Person who has the Misfortune of being deprived of Health to the Degradation of applying to the Parish; and instead of claiming that as his Right, he receives with Thankfulness the Assistance during his Illness from his Master; and that often induces him on his Recovery to make Exertions afterwards. I have heard the Men express themselves in this Way: "You have had a bad Bargain of me during my Illness, and I must do all I can to help you."

Have they any Benefit Clubs amongst them?

Yes, they have; not so much in Cases of Sickness, and probably from the Cause I have stated, that they are not under the Necessity of applying for Parochial Aid; but they have certain Clubs; one, I think, which is very commonly subscribed to, to pay their Expences in case of Funerals.

What is the Amount of the Rates in the Pound in your Parish?

This particular Parish is divided into Townships; and some of the Townships, which are peculiarly Agricultural, have scarcely any Rate at all; Sixpence in the Pound on the Rental would probably pay the whole: but the particular Township in which those People live has a considerable Village in it, and there the Rates are higher, probably about a Shilling in the Pound, in consequence of having Tradespeople, Tailors and Weavers, and some Persons who get Settlements from Apprenticeships; and some few Widows, perhaps, of the Agricultural Labourers, who have been left without a Family to support them, may have Two or Three Shillings a Week; but I should say that a Shilling in the Pound, even in that Township, covers it, that being the highest in the Parish: I believe Sixpence in the Pound would cover the whole Parish.

What is the Amount of the Population?

I cannot state the Population of the Parish in the Township I allude to; about Three Hundred probably.

What is the Acreage?

About Fourteen hundred Acres.

You have stated that the Rates are higher in consequence of there being some Tradespeople and others in the Village; are those Persons in the Occupation of any small Quantities of Land?

They generally have a small Garden, but very little, attached to their Cottage: not enough, I think.

Do you find that their Comforts in Life are in proportion to those of the Agricultural Labourers?

No; they are not so regularly paid, and they have not the Advantages the others have; they are some of them Labourers, who will take Piece Work when they can get it; Carpenters and Persons of that Description.

Are they a better or a worse Class of People than the Hinds?

[176]

Rather worse in their Habits, I should think; the Hinds are exempt from the Uncertainties of high and low Prices; because although of course their Earnings are not of equal Value in Money when Corn is very low, yet the Quantum of Meal which the Grain produces is the same; and when the Corn is very high, they are exempt from the Poverty which would otherwise accompany a Money Rate of Wages. There is another Remark which it may be proper to make, that in receiving as Wages a Quantum of Grain, (which they get ground at a very cheap Rate,) besides the Temptation of spending Money in Public Houses when they go to purchase their weekly Food, they are saved all the intermediate Profits of the Meal-dealer and Baker; and I apprehend the Quantity of Grain given to those People, though it may cost the Farmer Fifteen or Sixteen Pounds, would probably cost the Labourer Twenty Pounds if he purchased it in small Quantities of Meal, or in Loaves.

Is it generally in Grain, or in Meal?

Generally in Grain.

In the Allowance given to Labourers in Articles of Subsistence, is there a certain Quantum given, without regard to its Price?

There is a certain Quantum given, without reference to the Price.

It is the same in Scotland, is it not?

In Scotland they give it in Meal; generally it amounts to the same thing, the Calculation being the same.

Is it not better for them to have it in Meal, as it saves the Expence of grinding it?

The Master makes his Calculation, and if he incurs the Expence he will give somewhat less; but they generally prefer having it ground among themselves. There is a great Competition among the very small Mills: a Man takes a Mill, and buys a Horse and Cart, and he goes round and collects the Grain from those People, and takes it back to them when ground; and the Number of those Mills keeps them on pretty good Terms; they can get it ground according to their own Fancy and Taste. Of course the Grain delivered to the Servant is always the best which the Farm produces; and that has one salutary Effect, that it gives the Servants an Interest in the working of this Grain, and in the preserving it in good Condition; and instead of grumbling in bad Weather at working extra Hours in Harvest, they have all an Interest in preserving it in good Order.

If the Grain is damaged in Harvest, are they satisfied with that such as it is?

I should not say that; but I never heard an Instance in which they did not get the very best Grain that the Farm would produce. I never knew a Farmer feel himself called upon to go and purchase better, or that he has done so. I have known where the Grain has been sprouted, that they have given a larger Quantity to make up for the Deficiency, though that is not the Bargain.

If there is any Surplus left, does the Master take it back?

It is in the Option of the Servant to make the best he can of it. If a Man has only a Wife and Daughter at Home, his Grain is greater than he can consume; this stands to his Credit at the Half Year's End, and it goes to his Account at the Market Price of the Day with his Master.

Has he the Option to take either the Grain or the Market Price of the Grain?

The Master is bound to deliver him his Grain, but he is not bound to buy it back of him. It often happens that the Servants will prefer selling to the Miller; but in my own Case I am in the habit, and I believe it is a very general Thing, if they have any surplus Grain, to give them an Allowance for it at the End of the Half Year.

What is the Expence of building Cottages in your Country?

About Thirty or Forty Pounds.

Including a Cowhouse?

No; a Cowhouse would cost as much as a Cottage; the Cowhouse is to accommodate the Cows of Six or Eight Persons; of course each Man has his own separate Pigstye; but One Cowhouse is built to accommodate all those living on the same Spot together; they do not have each a separate Cowhouse.

You do not mean a mere Shed for the Cow belonging to the Cottage, but a Cowhouse to accommodate more than One?

A regular Cowhouse, which would accommodate Ten, if so many were wanted, of those Persons Cows under One Roof.

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Living very close to the Border, do you find any marked Distinction between the Scotch Labourers and the English Labourers?

There is not much Difference. There is only this, that there is a greater Tendency to apply to the Parish on our Side of the Border than the other; for on the other Side, in many Instances, they have not any Parochial Funds; but among the farming Labourers I do not think there is any great Difference; indeed they are very often interchanging, for they remove and go from one Side of the Border to the other.

Do you think that the Introduction of the Poor Laws has deteriorated the Condition of the Labourers in your Neighbourhood, or not?

It clearly has deteriorated the Condition of the Poor in our Neighbourhood in so far as respects Persons not regularly hired as Farm Servants. I am happy to say it has not so much encroached on the Habits and Feelings of the Farm Servants.

To what Description of Persons do you conceive the Deterioration to apply?

I refer to Tradespeople, and those who are not Farm Servants.

Are there many Servants that have been out of Employment in your Part of the Country?

There has been a considerable Want of Employment in the Winter Seasons, and Storms of Snow. That Class of Persons not engaged as yearly Servants on Farms are frequently without Employment.

How do they subsist?

They must subsist by the Savings they have made before; and if it continues too long for them, they must apply to the Parish.

In point of fact they do not often apply to the Parish?

Not for Two or Three Weeks, except in Cases of Illness.

It is when they are not employed?

Yes; there are a Set of Persons in every Village or small Town who are doing the extra Work of the District, such as draining and road-making, who are not included in the Class of Servants I have been describing; and those are the Persons who are commonly in want, and who may sometimes apply to the Parish Funds.

Does the Practice of paying the Labourers in Grain lead to Disputes between them and their Masters?

No, not often. I have known Disputes come before the Magistrates sometimes, such as when they are not satisfied with the Pasture the Cow is put on, if it should be a very dry Summer, and the Grass not very abundant; but there are very few Disputes; and this Table, shewing the Average of Years Residence of Persons on One Farm, shews there is a pretty good Understanding between the Master and the Servants.

What Size are the Gardens in general?

They are in general small, varying from the Sixth to the Fourth Part of an Acre; rather a Sixth than a Fourth; but as they have a large Quantity of Potatoes supplied by the Farmers, they have less Occasion for a Garden. The Garden is employed in the growing other Vegetables.

Is your Bushel given by Measure or by Weight?

It is given by Measure. Potatoes are measured by the heaped Imperial Bushel, as much as will lie upon it.

How do they procure Manure for their Gardens?

They take it from their Cow Yard; they have a Cowhouse where they take as much as they like.

Does not that make Misunderstanding between the Parties?

No, I never heard of that; it is understood that when they work their Gardens in the Spring, they take the Manure from their Cowhouse.

You value the Keep of the Cow at 9£.; was that taking into Calculation that the Labourer took the Manure of the Cow for his Garden?

Yes; as much of it as he wanted.

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The Labourer, you say, has always Two Pigs; has he the Manure of the Pigs for his Land?

Of course, for his Garden.

It has been stated that the Hind generally receives as much Straw as he requires for his Use; what is done eventually with the Straw when it becomes Manure; does the Master take it from him, or does he apply it to his Garden?

He is allowed what his Garden requires, but the Farmer leads it away to his own Fields. As soon as the Place near the Cowhouse is filled with Manure, the Farmer takes it away. The Manure is the Farmer's Property, unquestionably.

The Hinds in your Part of the Country have always been very loyal and very quiet, have they not?

They have always been very quiet. They would as soon think of burning their own Houses, as of burning the Stacks.

You stated that the Average Earnings, and the Quantity of Grain and Money paid to the Hinds, are about 35£. a Year; does that include the Sum he shall receive for any Number of Children?

No; his own individual Earnings,

Do you allow any Sum for extra Children?

No, except when they work; they are paid for their Employment, but in no other Way.

You said that when a Hind lost his Cow, the Farmer would assist him sometimes in getting another; is that a usual Practice?

Yes, I believe it is. There are very many Instances of the kind, where a Farmer has lent the Man a Cow; in which Case, however, the Farmer generally takes the Calf as his Property; the Hind is not allowed to have that. When a Hind has a Cow of his own, he fattens his Calf, or makes the most he can of it. In the other Case, the Calf is all the Farmer gets for the Use of his Property.

Supposing the Farmer was not inclined to give that Assistance to his own Hind, do the other Farmers assist in any Way?

No. I have often thought it would be desirable to have an Insurance Society for Things of that Description; but I have never known a Man turned out of his Place for Want of a Cow: he has been assisted by his Master.

It does not happen that if a Farmer will not do the whole, other Farmers will assist to accomplish it?

No.

Is it not a great Advantage in your Neighbourhood that the Labourers should get their Fuel Cheap?

Yes, certainly, very great.

Do they use their Potatoes for their own Food, or for the Cow or the Pig?

Not at all for the Cow; they are not required to spend any Part of their Earnings for their Cow; they use them for the Family; the Refuse for the Pigs.

Has there been no Alteration, within your Recollection, in respect of the Labourers Conditions or Earnings?

There has been a partial Alteration: they were allowed to grow Potatoes on a certain Quantity of Land in their Master's Fields, 1,000 Yards in Length, in a Drill, generally; but I thought there was a considerable Objection to that Mode of hiring, because, in a very dry Season, probably they had not a Sufficiency, and sometimes it led to Disputes about the Quality of the Ground in which they were planted; and I altered it on my Farms, taking the Risk and Expence of the Potatoe Crop upon myself, to exempt them from the Vicissitudes of the Season or Varieties of Soil.

Do Potatoes constitute a larger Portion of Food now than they did when you first recollect?

Not at all; they have an equal Quantity of Potatoes and of Meal as formerly.

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Do they ever give Potatoes to their Cows?

I should think not; the Master is bound to feed their Cows, so that they would be cheating their Families or their Pig. When I state 9£. as the Cost of the Cow, I conceive that should cover the whole Cost of the Cow during the Year.

Do the Families eat Barley or Wheaten Bread?

Not very much of Wheaten Bread; it is generally Two Thirds Barley and One Third Pease.

You speak of Weavers receiving Parish Relief; are there a great Number of them?

No Manufactures; but there are Weavers employed by the Peasantry to make their Yarn into Cloth. It is only occasionally.

They do not weave for any Master Manufacturer, only for their poor Neighbours?

Just so.

They are sometimes, you say, upon the Poor Rate?

That Class of Persons (not Weavers particularly, but Tradesmen generally,) is more upon the Poor Rate than the Agricultural Class.

How do you account for that?

Because they are not so well off, nor so regularly paid.

Do not they get higher Wages?

Probably they do, but they are not so provident; and the Wages are curtailed by the Profits of the intermediate Dealers, which does not apply to the Hinds.

You think it is a better Mode to pay in Meal than in Money?

I think it is a better Custom for Farm Servants; it promotes their domestic Habits, and gives them wholesome Food.

What are the Average Wages the Weavers receive?

I cannot say; I meant merely that kind of small Tradespeople there are in most Towns; as I mentioned, there is no regular Manufacture.

Is this System regularly pursued throughout the County of Northumberland?

Yes; in all the Northern Counties of England, and the Southern Counties of Scotland.

As far as you have the Means of knowing, does the Poor Rate at present come to about the same Amount as formerly?

I should think it is rather reduced of late Years, than increased, over the County generally. I cannot say, because wherever we find a small Town or very uncertain Wages, it is increased; but in an Agricultural Parish the Rates are very low indeed.

It is increased in those Towns, probably, by the Manufacturing People?

It is; and by unemployed Labourers.

What is the Size of the Farms?

Some of the Farms are very extensive; those especially that comprise a great deal of Hill Ground, which is often combined with the low Ground; but perhaps the Tillage Farms are generally about 400 Acres, or from that to 500 Acres.

What is the Average Number of Men to a Tillage Farm?

I conceive there is one regularly-employed Man hired through the Year to 35 or 40 Acres, exclusive of extra Hands employed on other Work.

What is the Name of the Parish in which you live?

Kirk Newton.

What do you estimate as the Average Value of Land per Acre thereabout?

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That is a difficult Question to answer, it varies so much. In the Neighbourhood of the Hills there may be 200 or 300 Acres of Arable Land in a Farm connected with Mountain Pasture. The Land varies from the Banks of the Tweed, where it is worth perhaps 45s. an Acre, to 15s. Perhaps 25s. an Acre is about the Average of the best District.

What is the Population in your Township?

I am not prepared to answer that Question with great Accuracy, but I should think about 300.

What is the Acreage?

About 1,400 Acres.

Do you conceive that a larger Produce would be procured by the Spade than by the Plough?

I should suppose a larger Produce might be procured, but at a much greater Expence.

If they dig an Acre with a Spade, what would the Cost of that be in your Neighbourhood?

I do not know; we have never thought of trying that, and I have not calculated it.

Will you state in what Ward your Parish is situate?

In Glendale Ward.

Have you very few Persons out of Employment?

Very few.

Should you consider that any Act of Parliament which would prevent your paying your Hinds in Kind would be prejudicial to the Morals and Comforts of your Labourers?

Undoubtedly.

Have the Rents been lowered in your Parish?

They have been lowered partially. In some Places considerable Abatements have been given; and Farms that have been out of Lease have been generally let at a reduced Rate.

Has the Reduction been considerable?

In some Instances considerable: in some Instances a Fifth; in some a Fourth.

Do you conceive that the Capital in the Hands of Farmers in Northumberland has been on the Increase or Diminution?

It has been very much diminished. I believe the Value of their Stock has very much diminished.

Do you conceive that the Farmer's spare Capital that is not employed upon his Farm - the little Momey he has had out in Mortgages, or Land he has purchased, during the Prices preceding the Year 1814, has been decreased; that he has called in his Mortgages and has sold his Land?

Yes; I have no doubt that his Capital has been very much impaired.

Is the Quality of the Stock impaired, or not?

No, not the Quality of Stock; but the Value of Stock is greatly lessened.

Is the Quantity of Corn produced lessened?

Yes, I should apprehend it is lessened; as the Farmer gets into Difficulties he applies more severely to the productive Powers of his Land, and does less for it in return.

You say you have extra Hands in the Harvest Time; about what Number of extra Hands have you in Harvest Time?

We have an Influx of Scotch and of Irish Persons passing to and fro, and getting Work as they can.

If you were to reckon them numerically, what Quantity of Hands for how many Days in the Course of the Year have you to assist in Harvest Time?

I very often have, perhaps, Forty or Fifty extra Hands in the Time of Harvest, for about Four Weeks.

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You say the Capital of the Farmer has been latterly very much diminished; to what do you attribute that?

The Reduction of the Price of their Produce, or rather the Contraction of the Currency.

Has the Capital of the Farmer been, by these Means, so much diminished as to prevent his farming the Land in as good a Manner as he was used to do?

Yes, in many Instances; and in some Instances to ruin him altogether: but before a Farmer gives up a Farm he takes all he can out of it, generally.

Is there any Difference in the Number of Hands employed on a Farm from what there used to be?

Of course the Number of extra Hands must depend upon Circumstances; if the Harvest comes rapidly forward, there are more Hands wanted for a Time.

Are you prepared to say how many Hands are ordinarily employed in the Cultivation of 100 Acres in your Neighbourhood, including every Description of Labour, not including Females?

I reckon that One regularly-hired Hind, from one End of the Year to the other, may be occupied upon each Thirty-five to Forty Acres. Then they have extra Hands for hoeing Turnips, and so on.

What is the ordinary Number of Persons employed to Thirty or Forty Acres?

I can hardly answer that Question, because they are employed at one Season, and not at another. The great Employment given to Female Labourers and Boys in that Part of the Country is in preparing the Land for Turnips, gathering Couch, and cleaning it. It is entirely a Turnip District; and probably they are much better off than in other Parts of the Country, because it affords much Employment to weak Hands.

Is there a great Reluctance in the poor Labouring Classes to apply for Parish Relief, except in Cases of absolute Necessity?

There is a Reluctance in the Agricultural Population generally.

They do not contract early or improvident Marriages?

Not generally; of course there are Exceptions to that.

If you say that One Man is sufficient for the Cultivation of from Thirty-five to Forty Acres of Land, what is the Proportion of Expence you would have to pay for extra Hands, compared to the Expence of that One Man?

We should require Two or Three extra Hands to each Man who is steadily employed; but they are not in regular Employment.

What, in the Course of a Year, would be paid for the Assistance given to that One Man, who is competent to the Cultivation of that Number of Acres?

I do not know that I can answer that Question; there is such a Variety of Cultivations employed.

As applied to Corn Land, what would be the Proportion?

I should think probably about Three Women, Boys, or Girls might be employed over and above that Man.

What would be the comparative Expence for those Hands?

I should think the Labourer's Earnings would go far to cover all the Three.

Do the Scotch One Pound Notes circulate in your Part of the Country?

They do in some Measure.

Do you think an Injury would arise if that Circulation was withdrawn?

It would be attended with very great Inconvenience, and perhaps it would be almost impossible to do it; the Collieries which supply the Northern District are situate on the South of the Border, and they bring their One Pound Notes to pay for Coals.

Would not the withdrawing One Pound Notes naturally diminish the Prices of Commodities?

I believe it would have that Effect.

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You have stated that you employ extra Hands; are those your own Population, or not?

Generally our own Population, except in the Time of Harvest; in the Harvest we have Irish and Scotch Labourers generally; but those are not employed until all the People of the County are taken up.

What is the Township in which you live?

Milfield.

Has the Population of that Township increased since the last Census, when it appeared to be 259?

I should not conceive it has much increased.

Do the Scotch Bank Notes circulate in your Parish?

Yes, they do principally; the People are in the continual Habit of interchange with the Scotch.

What Proportion of the Circulating Medium within your Township consists of Scotch Bank Notes?

I should suppose perhaps One Fourth or One Fifth of it; there are Fairs or Markets on either Side of the Border, and the People step from one Side to the other without considering it; the Circulation must go on the same as at the Two Ends of London Bridge.

Has that Circulation been diminished by the Law which renders it illegal?

Yes, I believe it has; because People that receive the Payment in these One Pound Notes do not feel themselves always at liberty to put them into Circulation; they have the Trouble of sending them to some Scotch Banker to get them exchanged.

Has that Diminution produced any Effect in respect to the State of the Poor in that Part of the Country?

It produced a considerable Inconvenience to the Farmer, and consequently an Effect on the Labourer.

A beneficial or injurious Effect?

An injurious Effect.

Have the last Two or Three Seasons been reckoned unfavourable, or otherwise?

They have been on a fair Average since the Year 1827; I think we have had an Average Produce in 1826, and 1827 it was not so.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Richard Mackenzie Bacon Esquire is called in, and further examined as follows:

The Committee understand you wish to be further examined; upon what Points do you wish to give an Explanation?

A Question was put to me, whether I did not think that by facilitating the Settlement of Labourers from this Country in the Colonies, thereby reducing the Price of Labour, which is now exorbitant, in those Colonies, and by increasing the Number of Persons to consume the Agricultural Produce of those Countries, a very large Sum of Money might not, within a certain Portion of Time, be saved to England? To which I answered, that that was too wide a Question for me to answer off hand. I am now prepared to say it depends entirely upon the Question, in which Country Labour and Capital combined can be rendered most productive? The Question of Reduction of Wages is merely a Question of Distribution; and I apprehend the Financier has no concern with that; but Part of the Question may have regard to the Aggregate of the Production on which the Expences can be levied. The Question of Distribution is a Question of Happiness amongst the People; not a Question for the mere Financier in any Way whatever.

[183]

Do you not think that the Land in Van Dieman's Land is much more fertile than the sandy Wastes which it is proposed to enclose in England?

That is an Assumption that they are sandy Wastes.

Do you not think they would have been cultivated if they had been worth the Expence of cultivating?

That Question is already answered in the Statement of Expences attending Enclosures, and bringing Waste Lands into Cultivation, which does not apply to the Plan proposed of the Cultivation of Waste Land by Paupers. I was asked a Question which I find I answered - Did you mean to state that you do not approve of the Reduction of Taxation? It was towards the End of the Proceedings, when the Committee was breaking up; and I gave a sort of general Assent, that I did not conceive that Reduction of Taxation would very materially benefit the Labourer. I have already stated the Distinction I took. The Reason why the Reduction of Taxation would not very materially benefit the Labourer arises out of the severe Competition amongst that Class, and not out of the general Benefits which would of course arise from the Reduction of Taxation. All the Reduction that has taken place since the Conclusion of the War has obviously done nothing to benefit his Condition. I was also asked whether there were no other Means that I considered tended to the Moral Degradation of the Poor besides those I had stated. I conceive that the Non-residence of the Clergy has very much tended to the Demoralization of the Poor, and I have particular Ground. In the Village in which I live, we have there a Catholic, an Anabaptist, and a Population belonging to the Establishment; and (absit invidia) not professing the Catholic Religion, I cannot of course admit that its Doctrines would be more likely to lead to Moral Consequences than those of the Church of England. But it is a certain Fact that in the Offences committed in that Village, the Catholics do not take the Share that the Protestants do, in consequence, I believe, of the Non-residence of the Clergyman. We have a vast Quantity of Game preserved all round us; not in one particular Parish, but all round the Country. The Consequence has been, a considerable Number of Poachers have been reared in our Village, and have been transported from thence. I find, I believe I may say, without any Exception, no Catholic has ever been guilty of that Offence. We have a most exceedingly active and beneficent and able Catholic Priest. There is an Anabaptist Teacher, a Man of the very lowest Order,-a Man of no Education nor any Property, and in a wretched State of Poverty; but the Clergyman is non resident, it being a Corporate Living, and it presents a singular Instance. The Corporation of Norwich receive the Tithes through the Hands of a Baptist. When they are let, the Clergyman gets 120£. or 150£. a Year. The Tithe may let for about 400£. a Year. The Person who collects them derives a Benefit probably of from 50£. to 100£. a Year out of it; and it is nearly all collected from the Catholics and Baptists. I must bear testimony to the Morality of the Catholic Population, and I conceive it arises from the superior Efficacy of the Ministry of the Catholic Clergyman, by his Presence; although the Clergyman of the English Church is an exceedingly good Man, but non-resident.

Do you mean that there is no Curate residing?

No Curate residing. He comes over once a Week to do the Duty; or when he can he visits the Poor of the District.

He is paid by a Lay Corporation?

Yes; it is a Lay Impropriation.

They receive the Tithes, and pay him as the Curate?

Yes; they farm the Tithe to an Anabaptist, who collects it from a Catholic Proprietor principally. It is perhaps one of the most singular Instances in the whole Country.

Do you conceive the Operation of the Game Laws is injurious?

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That is one of the Circumstances I wish to add to my Examination. I have seen one of the most striking Proofs of it. There is no question, that nearly all the Thefts and all the Depredations that arise in our Village begin by poaching. I have seen them in numberless Instances. Three Years ago we had Ten Persons either punished or transported at one Time, for one Attack on Lord Kensington's Property, Fourteen Miles off our Village.

Do you not find a resident Gentleman, as well as a Clergyman, of use in preserving the Morals of the People?

Unquestionably.

What do you think would be the State of Morals in one of your domestic Colonies in the Absence of any resident Gentleman or Farmer?

I do not apprehend that would be the Case, for all those Places must be in the Neighbourhood of the Residences of Gentlemen.

Suppose it were on Bagshot Heath?

There is no question that that would be an Inconvenience; but I apprehend there would be a Provision for Religious Instruction. If the Town were large enough, it ought to include the Residence of a Clergyman. In the Colony at Frederick's Oord, which has been established by the Government of the Netherlands, the best Effects have been produced.

'Till the Colony got into a State that you could get a Gentleman to reside there as well as Clergymen, do you not think that the Morals would be found deteriorated of the People aggregated there?

I do not think there would be any great Aggregation. The surplus People might and would probably be settled in their own Neighbourhood. In my Neighbourhood there may be from Two to Five thousand Acres of Waste Land over a Surface of Ten Miles. Thus the People would be settled in the Vicinity of Towns, and only constitute an Addition to the Towns already placed there.

Do you not find that those Persons who live at a Distance from Neighbourhoods are the most profligate People?

They generally settle there for the express Purpose. I apprehend that all Persons who retire from Society must have an Object, and that Object is generally bad where they resort to desert Neighbourhoods. We find that People resort to our Village for the Advantage of the Common; and in the extreme Benevolence of the Noble Lord's Family, resident, there is found an additional Attraction. The Rents of Cottages are above all the Villages around us. The Cottages in our Village bear a Rent in the Proportion of One Third above others, simply from these Circumstances.

You stated that the Living belongs to a Corporate Body, and that you have no resident Clergyman; of what Profession are the chief Proprietors in your Neighbourhood?

The Chief Proprietor is a Catholic; the next Proprietor is a Baptist, who has been essential to the Establishment of a Chapel. There are comparatively few Protestants residing in the Parish.

There are, probably, Schools established for the Education of the Lower Classes?

His Lordship established a School on this Principle: he educates a Hundred and twenty Children, on one Condition only; namely, that they shall be taken to some Place of Worship on the Sunday; leaving it to the Parents of the Children to take them where they please, and never interfering in the slightest Degree in their Religious Instruction: the only Condition is, that they shall go to some Place of Worship, for he will not have the Labour of the Week destroyed by the Neglect and Idleness of that Day.

Of what Principle is the Master of that School?

A Catholic: but I ought to state that there is not the least Effort made to proselyte the Children in any Way; if the noble Founders knew that there was any Effort made by the Master, he would, I doubt not, be discharged instantly.

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You stated that Mr. Falla has given to the Public an Account of very large Produce that might be obtained by Spade Husbandry; and you stated, that you had for several Years been inculcating upon the Public the great Advantages that would be derived from Spade Husbandry; how do you account for the Fact, that in a Thing of such easy Process as Spade Husbandry, which is known to all the Gardeners in the Kingdom, nobody has adopted the Practice if it is found to be so extremely productive?

This has been one of the most unaccountable of all the Circumstances which ever fell under my Observation. I have published, at Two different Periods, in Mr. Falla's own Words, his Experiments, at a Distance of Three or Five Years; and I have strongly invoked the Attention of the Public to them, but never could succeed in any one Instance. Why, I do not know.

Do you not think it is because the Data on which Mr. Falla goes are very much controverted?

I can only say, had I any Power to try the Experiment, and were I interested in Agriculture, I would do it, if it were only upon One Rood of Land; and if I found it succeed on that, I should apply it to a larger Surface. A Gentleman called upon me about Two Days before I left Norwich, and stated that he had seen an Experiment of Spade Husbandry, and could confirm the Statements; but I cannot give the Facts.

Do not you conceive that one of the greatest Delusions arises from these very partial Experiments upon small Spaces of Land, or with some particular Produce; reasoning from the Data, that because true on One Rood or One Perch of Land, in particular Exposures, you can produce so much, therefore the Results are generally in the Multiplication, according to the extended Quantity?

I merely state the Fact, that such has been the Proposition made by Mr. Owen to the Grand Jury of the County of Lanark, supported by Mr. Falla; but that forms no Part of the Plan I have submitted to the Committee.

Do you deny the Fact, that large Farms afford a greater clear Profit than small Farms?

No. I am satisfied that the Production is greater on large Farms than on small Farms, from the Division of Labour. There is one Analogy, as to Spade Husbandry, to be drawn from Mr. Coke's Estate. When he held his Agricultural Meetings every Year, he laid it down as a Maxim, that if the whole Kingdom were divided into concentric Circles, One Mile apart, every Improvement, however clear it might be, did not extend more than One Mile per Annum. Taking the Northumberland Mode of sowing Turnips as an Instance: supposing he exhibited that in the clearest Manner to a Meeting consisting of 4,000 Persons, it would not extend more than One Mile the first Year; the second Year there would be a Circle of a second Mile; and supposing the Kingdom divided into concentric Circles, as I have stated, the Improvements would extend only in that Ratio. Now if Mr. Falla's Experiments are submitted to the same Test, there is no Wonder why they should be left untried. Mr. Coke could not for Years introduce the Northumbrian Mode of cropping Turnips, though he shewed its great Advantages; Three Fourths of the County of Norfolk have not even yet adopted it.

If the whole Country were cultivated by Spade Husbandry, it would, of course, maintain a much larger Population?

Mr. Owen, I think, states Sixty Millions; but I beg to say that Spade Husbandry forms no Part of my Proposition.

Do you suppose, that 600 Acres being divided into Two Farms, that Two of 300 Acres would employ more Men than Three Farms of 200 Acres?

The larger the Farm the smaller the Number of Men that would be employed upon it, owing to the better Division of Labour, and the Application of better Machines. I was asked generally as to the Moral Degradation of the Agricultural Classes, whether it proceeded from certain Circumstances? To what I before stated I wish to add, that a great deal has arisen from the Separation of the Farmers from their Servants; to avoid Settlements, Farmers have been very reluctant to admit their Agricultural Servants into their Houses: this has produced a complete Separation between the Farmer and his Man; and that Chasm in Society has occasioned their Morals to be neglected, and has had a prodigious Effect in demoralizing the Labouring Classes.

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Do you believe that there used to be a great deal more friendly and confidential Intercourse between the Masters and the Servants than exists now?

No doubt of it. When I was a Boy I used to visit in a large Farmhouse, where the Farmer sat in a Room with a Door opening to the Servants Hall, and every thing was carried from the one Table to the other. Now they will rarely permit a Man to live in their Houses; and it is in consequence a total Bargain and Sale for Money, and all Idea of Affection is destroyed.

Although you do not give any Opinion with respect to the Advantage of Spade Labour, if it was to be substituted for the Labour of the Plough, or Labour aided by Machinery, do you think it would be very advantageous if the Cottagers in general were induced generally to apply Spade Labour to such Extent as they can apply it, without interfering with the adequate Application of their Labour for the Service of the Farmers?

Undoubtedly.

Do not you think in that Case there would be a much larger Produce, without the Farmer being injured by the Labourer being withdrawn from his Service?

It entirely depends upon whether he is placed upon fresh Soil. If you take a Farm of 600 Acres, and divide it into Ten Farms, there would be a great Increase of Men to be supported, and smaller Produce; but the taking a Farm now under Cultivation, and dividing it into small Farms, would not add to the Production, but only change the Circumstances; you would take it from the one Class of Society and give it to another. The Object is to rear up an intermediate Class, and to decrease the Competition of Labourers.

Though you think that the Subdivision of Farms would not be calculated to produce a larger Quantity of Food, do you not think that the Amount of Population which would be found in smaller Farms would, upon the whole, be more comfortably circumstanced than if there was that great Difference which there is between Occupiers of large Farms and mere Cottagers or Servants employed by them?

The Moral Improvement would be immeasurable.

Do you not think that in proportion as the Labourers are enabled to provide more Subsistence for themselves, but not in such Manner as to withdraw their Labour from the Farmers, there would be a beneficial Effect produced with respect to the Farmer, the Labourer, and the Public?

Unquestionably.

Supposing you were to establish the Colonies you propose, should you not wish that they should be composed of all Gradations of Society; so that in fact, as well as it could be done, an equal Quantity of Labour should be provided for the Wants of all?

Undoubtedly.

If that Colonization was to be so constituted, do you think there would be likely to be any solid Evil produced by such Colonization?

I think, on the contrary, there would be great Moral Good produced.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Friday next, Twelve o'Clock.