House of Lords Journal Volume 62: 13 July 1830

Die Martis, 13 Julii 1830.

DOMINI tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

E. of Shaftesbury chosen Speaker pro tempore.

The Lord Chancellor not being present, and The Lord Tenterden and The Lord Wynford, appointed Speakers by His late Majesty's Commissions, being absent, the Lords unanimously chose The Earl of Shaftesbury to be Speaker pro tempore:

And his Lordship took his Seat upon the Woolsack accordingly.

PRAYERS.

Scot v. Irving, Respondent's Petition to dismiss Appeal, referred to Appeal Com ee.

Upon reading the Petition of John Irving, Respondent in a Cause depending in this House, to which Archibald Scot is Appellant; setting forth, "That on the 12th Day of this instant July the Appellant presented his Appeal to their Lordships against an Interlocutor of the Lord Ordinary in Scotland, of the 25th of May last, and an Interlocutor of the Second Division of the Court of Session in Scotland, of the 22d of June last; which Interlocutors are in the following Terms: "Edinburgh, May 25, 1830. The Lord Ordinary having considered the Bill, with the Answers and Productions, in respect that the Question, "Whether the Complainer is liable for any Part of the Sums charged for?" is at present in dependence in the House of Lords, under an Appeal in a former Suspension of the same Charge, on Grounds which are totally exclusive of the Complainer's Liability, Finds that in hoc statu there are no termini habiles on which the Lord Ordinary can give Judgment in the present Suspension; and that the new Grounds alleged will be entire to the Complainer, in the event of his general Liability being established in that Process of Appeal; therefore supersedes farther Consideration of this Bill until the Issue of the said Appeal:" (signed) "James W. Moncreiff." "Edinburgh, 22 June 1830. Having considered this Note, supersede the advising thereof 'till the Appeal is discussed:" That by their Lordships Standing Order of the 9th of April 1812, it is Ordered, "That when any Petition of Appeal shall be presented to this House from any Interlocutory Judgment of either Division of the Lords of Session in Scotland, the Counsel who shall sign the said Petition, or Two of the Counsel for the Party or Parties in the Court below, shall sign a Certificate or Declaration, stating either that Leave was given, by the Division of the Judges pronouncing such Interlocutory Judgment, to the Appellant or Appellants, to present such Petition of Appeal, or that there was a Difference of Opinion amongst the Judges of the said Division pronouncing such Interlocutory Judgment:" That the Petitioner humbly conceives that the Interlocutors before recited are Interlocutory Judgments; there was no Difference of Opinion among the Judges when the said Interlocutor of the 22d of June was pronounced; and no Leave has been given by those Judges to present such Petition of Appeal: That the Petitioner humbly conceives, that under these Circumstances the said Appeal ought not to have been presented to this House:" and therefore praying their Lordships, "That the same may be dismissed:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petition be referred to the Committee appointed to consider of the Causes in which Prints of the Appellants and Respondents Cases, now depending in this House in Matters of Appeals and Writs of Error, have not been delivered, pursuant to the Standing Orders of this House.

Evidence of H.C. on Affairs of The East India Co. communicated.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Alexander Grant and others, as follows:

"My Lords,

"The Commons have directed me to communicate to your Lordships, A Copy of the Reports made from the Select Committee appointed by them on the Affairs of The East India Company, as desired by your Lordships in your Message of Friday last."

Ordered, That the said Evidence do lie on the Table.

Ordered, That the said Evidence be printed.

Slave Bounties Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Alexander Grant and others;

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act to reduce the Rate of Bounties payable upon the Seizure of Slaves;" and to acquaint this House, That they have agreed to their Lordships Amendments made thereto.

Bayley's Divorce Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Alexander Grant and others;

To return the Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the Marriage of James Bayley Esquire with Louisa his Wife, and to enable him to marry again; and for other Purposes;" and to acquaint this House, That they have agreed to the same, without any Amendment.

Registrar at Madras Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Spring Rice and others;

With a Bill, intituled, "An Act for the Relief of the Sufferers by the Insolvency of George Ricketts Esquire, formerly Registrar of the Supreme Court of Judicature at Madras;" to which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

The said Bill was read the First Time.

Ordered, That the said Bill be printed.

Papers delivered:

The House being informed, "That Mr. Charles Crafer, from the Treasury, attended;"

He was called in; and delivered at the Bar, pursuant to an Order of Tuesday last,

22d Report of Com rs of Revenue Inquiry:

"The Twenty-second Report of the Commissioners appointed for the Purpose of inquiring into the Collection and Management of the Public Revenue arising in Ireland, and into certain Departments of the Public Revenue arising in Great Britain."

And then he withdrew.

And the Title thereof being read by the Clerk;

Ordered, That the said Report do lie on the Table.

Ordered, That the said Report be printed.

The House being informed, "That Mr. Johnson, from the Office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, attended;"

He was called in; and delivered at the Bar, pursuant to the Directions of an Act of Parliament,

Compensation to T. Prendergast:

"A Copy of the Certificate filed by The Right Honorable The Lord Chancellor of Ireland, in the Office of the Auditor General in Ireland, in the Matter of the Petition and Claim of Thomas Prendergast Esquire, Cursitor of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, for Compensation, for One Year, ending the 2d November 1829; together with a Copy of The Lord Lieutenant's Warrant thereon."

And then he withdrew.

And the Title thereof being read by the Clerk;

Ordered, That the said Paper do lie on the Table.

The House being informed, "That Mr. James Waple, from the Commissioners for building new Churches, attended;"

He was called in; and delivered at the Bar, pursuant to the Directions of an Act of Parliament,

Expences of Church Com rs:

"An Account of Charges and Expences paid by His Majesty's Commissioners in and about the Execution of the Acts for building new Churches between the 25th Day of March 1829 and the 25th Day of March 1830."

And then he withdrew.

And the Title thereof being read by the Clerk;

Ordered, That the said Account do lie on the Table.

Ordered, That the said Account be printed.

The House being informed, "That Mr. Swinburne, from the Commissioners of Westminster Bridge, attended;"

He was called in; and delivered at the Bar, pursuant to the Directions of an Act of Parliament,

Westminster Bridge.

"The Four Quarterly Accounts of the Treasurer to the Commissioners of Westminster Bridge, from the 5th April 1829 to the 5th April 1830."

And then he withdrew.

And the Title thereof being read by the Clerk;

Ordered, That the said Accounts do lie on the Table.

Administration of Justice Bill, Petitions against: (Hyde, &c:) Congleton:

Upon reading the Petition of the Inhabitants of Hyde, Newton, Werneth, and other Townships and Places in the County Palatine of Chester, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Also, Upon reading the Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses, and other Inhabitants of the Borough of Congleton, in the County Palatine of Chester, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Middlewich:

Also, Upon reading the Petition of the Merchants, Traders and other Inhabitants of the Town of Middlewich, in the County Palatine of Chester, and other Places in the immediate Neighbourhood thereof, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Stockport:

Also, Upon reading the Petition of the Mayor, Clergy, Gentlemen, Merchants, Tradesmen and other Inhabitants of Stockport, in the County Palatine of Chester, and of its Vicinity, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Macclesfield:

Also, Upon reading the Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen, Burgesses and Inhabitants of the Borough of Macclesfield, in the County Palatine of Chester, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Grand Jury of Cheshire:

And also, Upon reading the Petition of the Grand Jury assembled at the General Quarter Sessions of the Peace held at the Castle of Chester, in and for the County Palatine of Chester, on Monday the 19th Day of April 1830, whose Names are thereunto subscribed; taking notice of a Bill depending in this House, intituled, "An Act for the more effectual Administration of Justice in England and Wales;" and severally praying their Lordships, "That the same may not pass into a Law in its present Shape:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petitions do lie on the Table.

Liverpool:

Upon reading the Petition of the Attornies and Solicitors residing and practising in the Town of Liverpool, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Manchester:

And also, Upon reading the Petition of the Attornies and Solicitors residing and practising in the Town of Manchester, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, whose Names are thereunto subscribed; taking notice of the last-mentioned Bill, and severally praying their Lordships, "That the same may not, in its present State, pass into a Law, or the Court of Session of the County Palatine of Chester be abolished:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petitions do lie on the Table.

Grand Jurors of Cheshire:

Upon reading the Petition of the Grand Jurors of the County Palatine of Chester, assembled at the Assizes for the said County on Monday the 12th Day of April 1830, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Justices for Cheshire.

And also, Upon reading the Petition of the Justices of the Peace for the County of Chester, whose Names are thereunto subscribed; taking notice of the last-mentioned Bill, and severally praying their Lordships, "That the same may not pass into a Law in its present Shape; but that they may be heard by themselves, their Counsel, Agents and Witnesses, against such Parts thereof as may affect them, by putting an end to the separate Jurisdiction of the County Palatine of Chester:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petitions do lie on the Table.

Galway Town Regulation Bill, Petitions against proposed Amendment: (Barristers, Galway:)

Upon reading the Petition of the Members of the Bar resident in and Freeholders of Galway, whose Names are thereunto subscribed; taking notice of a Bill depending in this House, intituled, "An Act to repeal so much of an Act passed in Ireland in the Fourth Year of the Reign of King George the First, for the better regulating the Town of Galway, and for strengthening the Protestant Interest therein, as limits the Franchise created by the said Act to Protestants only;" and praying their Lordships "to rescind the Amendment made by their Lordships thereto, which Amendment will not only exclude the Roman Catholic from the Freedom of the said Town, but will disfranchise the Protestant for the sake of excluding the Roman Catholic; and to adopt such Measures as may conduce to the Preservation in their full Integrity of the Protestant Interests in Galway, conformably to the sacred Principle of the Relief Act:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petition do lie on the Table.

Magistrates, Galway:

Upon reading the Petition of the resident Protestant Magistrates of Galway, whose Names are thereunto subscribed:

Roman Catholic Prelate, Galway.

And also, Upon reading the Petition of the Roman Catholic Prelate resident in Galway; taking notice of the last-mentioned Bill, and severally praying their Lordships to re-consider the Amendment thereto made by their Lordships, by which the Protestant, for the sake of excluding the Roman Catholic from the Freedom of the said Town, is actually deprived of Privileges vested for a Period of nearly Six Centuries since the Foundation of the Corporation of Galway:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petitions do lie on the Table.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure.

The House was resumed by The Lord Chancellor.

Illusory Appointments Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to alter and amend the Law relating to Illusory Appointments."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Real Property Liability Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for consolidating and amending the Laws for facilitating the Payment of Debts out of Real Estate."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Arms (Ireland) Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to regulate, for One Year, the Importation of Arms, Gunpowder and Ammunition into Ireland, and the making, removing, selling and keeping of Arms, Gunpowder and Ammunition in Ireland."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Custom Duties (Crown Goods) Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to subject to Duties of Customs Goods the Property of the Crown, in case of Sale after Importation."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Spirits Duties Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to impose additional Duties of Excise on Spirits."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Sugar Duties Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for granting to His Majesty, until the Fifth Day of April One thousand eight hundred and thirty-one, certain Duties on Sugar imported into the United Kingdom, for the Service of the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

West India Spirits Bill:

Hodie 3^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act to impose an additional Duty of Customs on Spirits the Produce of the British Possessions in America."

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Messages to H.C. that the Lords have agreed to the 7 preceding Bills.

And Messages were, severally, sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Farrer and Mr. Wingfield;

To acquaint them, That the Lords have agreed to the said Bills, without any Amendment.

Legislative Assembly (Canada) Billreported:

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, Intituled, "An Act to amend so much of an Act of the Thirty-first Year of His late Majesty, for making more effectual Provision for the Government of the Province of Quebec."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

To be read 3a.

Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Third Time To-morrow.

Government of Canada, Communications respecting, delivered.

The Duke of Wellington laid before the House, pursuant to an Address to His Majesty of Yesterday,

"Copies or Extracts of any Communications between the Colonial Office and the Governors of Upper and Lower Canada on the Subject of the Civil Government of Canada, as established by the Act of 31st George 3d, and respecting Alterations therein, and the State of the Executive and Legislative Councils, between the Month of January 1828 and the Month of January 1830, both inclusive;" together with a List thereof.

Which List was read by the Clerk as follows; (viz ^t.)

"No. 1. Copy of The Earl of Dalhousie's Despatch to Mr. Secretary Huskisson; dated Quebec, 29th January 1828."

"2. Copy of Mr. Secretary Huskisson's Despatch to The Earl of Dalhousie; dated Downing Street, 28th March 1828."

"3. Copy of a Letter from The Earl of Dalhousie to R. W. Hay Esq. dated London, 23d October 1828."

"4. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt; dated Downing Street, 26th October 1828."

"5. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 26th February 1829."

"6. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 27th March 1829."

"7. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 19th December 1829."

"8. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt; dated Downing Street, 29th September 1828."

"9. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Major General Sir John Colborne; dated Downing Street, 29th September 1828."

"10. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 22d November 1828."

"11. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 28th November 1828."

"12. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; of the same Date."

"13. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 13th December 1828."

"14. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 5th February 1829."

"15. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 27th February 1829."

"16. Copy of the Report of The Attorney General of Lower Canada relative to the Prosecutions for Libel."

"17. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt; dated Downing Street, 13th April 1829."

"18. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 7th March 1829."

"19. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated 25th March 1829."

"20. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 26th March 1829."

"21. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt; dated Downing Street, 30th September 1828."

"22. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt; dated Downing Street, 16th February 1829."

"23. Copy of a Despatch from Secretary Sir George Murray to Lieutenant General Sir P. Maitland; dated Downing Street, 31st July 1828."

"24. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutentant General Sir P. Maitland to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Halifax, 2d December 1828."

"25. Copy of a Despatch from Lieutenant General Sir James Kempt to Secretary Sir George Murray; dated Quebec, 3d January 1830."

"26. Extract of a Despatch from Major General Sir John Colborne to Sir George Murray; dated York, Upper Canada, 16th February 1829."

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie on the Table.

Ordered, That the said Papers be printed.

Holyhead, &c. Roads Bill.

The Order of the Day being read for the Second Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act to alter and amend several Acts for the Improvement of the Roads from London to Holyhead, and from London to Liverpool; and for the further Improvement of the said Roads;" and for the Lords to be summoned;

Ordered, That the said Bill be read a Second Time To-morrow; and that the Lords be summoned.

Criminal Laws, Petition from Olney, &c. for Amendment of.

Upon reading the Petition of the Clergymen, Churchwardens and other Inhabitants of Olney, Weston Underwood, and Emberton, Bucks, whose Names are thereunto subscribed; praying their Lordships "to pass an Act for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death in all Cases of Forgery:"

It is Ordered, That the said Petition do lie on the Table.

Reports of H.C. on the Poor in Ireland communicated.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons Yesterday, to request that they would be pleased to communicate to this House, "Copies of the First and Second Reports made from the Select Committee appointed by that House in Session 1819 on the State of Disease and Condition of the Labouring Poor in Ireland," acquainted the House, "That the Commons had delivered to them Copies of the said Reports, as desired."

Ordered, That the said Reports do lie on the Table.

Business of Courts of Law, &c. & Appeals before the Privy Council, Accounts respecting, Ordered.

Ordered, That there be laid before this House, "An Account of the Number of Writs issued and filed in each of the Common Law Courts of Westminster, in each Year, from the End of Trinity Term 1820 to the End of Trinity Term 1830:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Defended Causes tried in each of the Common Law Courts at Westminster and Guildhall, in each Year, from the End of the Sittings after Easter Term in 1820 to the End of the Sittings after Easter Term of this present Year:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Undefended Causes tried in each of the Common Law Courts of Westminster, at Westminster and Guildhall, from the End of the Sittings in Easter Term 1820 to the End of the Sittings after Easter Term in this present Year:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Undefended Causes tried in each of the English Circuits, in each Year, from 1820 to 1830, including the Spring Circuit of 1820 and the Spring Circuit of this present Year:"

Also, "The same Account of Defended Causes in the same Circuits, for the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Defended Causes tried each Day in the Court of King's Bench and the Court of Common Pleas, during the Years 1828, 1829 and 1830:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Judgments given by each Common Law Court of Westminster Hall on Demurrers, Special Cases, Special Verdicts, and Motions in Arrest of Judgment, in each Year, from 1820 to 1830:"

Also, "The same Accounts from each of the Three Common Law Courts in Dublin, during the same Period of Time:"

Also, "The same Accounts that are required from the English Circuits, from the Irish Circuits, and for the same Periods:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Writs issued and filed in the Courts of Common Pleas at Lancaster and Durham, and the Courts of Great Session holden at Chester, and for each County in Wales, from the Commencement of the Assizes or Great Sessions holden for these Places in the Spring of the Year 1820 to the End of the Spring Assizes or Great Sessions for each of these Places in the Year 1830:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Defended Causes tried at each of the last-mentioned Assizes or Great Sessions, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Undefended Causes tried at each of the last-mentioned Assizes or Great Sessions, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Judgments given by each of the last-mentioned Courts, at each Assizes or Great Sessions holden by them, during the same Period, on Demurrers, Special Cases, Special Verdicts, and Motions in Arrest of Judgment:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Judgments given by the Court of Exchequer Chamber, the Court of Error from the Common Law Side of the Exchequer, and the Court of King's Bench, on Writs of Error, from Easter Term 1820 to the End of Easter Term in the present Year:"

Also, "An Account of the Judgments on Writs of Error given by the Exchequer Chamber and King's Bench in Ireland, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Appeals, with the Names of the Parties, lodged at the Privy Council Office, from the Settlements in the East Indies, in each Year, from 1798 to the present Time:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of these Appeals in which Judgment has been given, in each Year, from the Year 1798 to the present Time:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Appeals, with the Names of the Parties, from all our Settlements beyond Sea, (except those from the East Indies,) lodged at the Privy Council Office, in each Year, from the Year 1819 to the present Time:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Appeals, with Names of Parties, entered for hearing in each Year, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Appeals, with the Names of the Parties, decided in each Year by The King in Council, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Causes commenced, from the Year 1820 to the present Time, in the Court of Sessions in Scotland, or removed into that Court from other Courts, during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Causes decided in each Year by the same Court, and what Arrear of Business there was in the Court at the End of each Year during the same Period:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Causes commenced in the Consistorial, Admiralty, and Sheriffs Courts in Scotland, in each Year, from 1819 to the present Time:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Causes decided in each Year, in each of these last-mentioned Courts in Scotland, for the same Period, with the Arrears at the End of each Year, in each Court:"

Also, "An Account of the Bills filed in each Year, with the Names of the Parties to each Cause, from 1820 to this Time, in the Court of Chancery and the Equity Side of the Exchequer:"

Also, "An Account of the Number of Decrees pronounced by The Lord Chancellor, of those pronounced by The Master of the Rolls, of those by The Vice Chancellor, and of those by The Lord Chief Baron, in Contested Causes, in each Year, during the same Period; specifying the Names of the Parties in each Cause:"

And also, "An Account of the Causes referred to the Masters in Chancery, and the Masters of the Court of Exchequer, in each Year, during the same Period; stating the Names of the Parties in each Cause, the Date of the Reference, and when the final Report on each of the Causes so referred was made."

Forgeries Bill, Motion for Re-commitment, Negatived:

The Order of the Day being read for the Third Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act for reducing into One Act all such Forgeries as shall henceforth be punished with Death, and for otherwise amending the Laws relative to Forgery;" and for the Lords to be summoned;

It was moved, "That the said Bill be re-committed."

Which being objected to;

The Question was put thereupon?

It was resolved in the Negative.

Protest thereupon:

DISSENTIENT:

"1.-Because the Bill, as amended in the Committee, annexes or continues the Punishment of Death in many Cases of Forgery, which Crime, however injurious to Society, is an Offence of human Institution. It can only be described as a Spoliation of Property unattended with Violence; and the common Feelings of Mankind, the Maxims of Religion and Philosophy, the Authority of the most eminent Men, and the Practice of the most civilized Nations, as well as of our ancient Law, are generally averse to punishing by Death any Crimes in the Perpetration of which no Violence is used or intended.

"2.-Because no Proof has been adduced, and there is no Ground for suspecting, that the Crime of Forgery has grown to be "enormous, frequent and dangerous," which are the Circumstances required by Sir Matthew Hale to justify a Lawgiver in annexing a Punishment, and even Death, "beyond the Demerit of the Offence itself simply considered."

"3.-Because, although Forgeries may have become less frequent of late Years in consequence of the Resumption of Cash Payments, or from other Causes, such recent Diminution of that Species of Guilt cannot be reasonably attributed to the Terror of a Punishment which has subsisted and been in force for nearly a Century, which at present, in Seven Cases out of Eight, is not inflicted, and which, when sternly and rigorously enforced, failed to produce any such Diminution. We were therefore unwilling too hastily to infer the Efficacy of Severity from any recent or accidental Diminution of the Offence, and we were confirmed in withholding our Assent to such precipitate Reasoning, by reflecting, that Forgeries have often been and still continue to be more frequent in this Country than they were before the Punishment of Death was annexed to that Crime.

4.-Because sundry Laws, inflicting Capital Punishments on a Variety of Crimes, have, during the last Seventy Years, been abrogated in civilized States, and in no one Instance does it appear that the Removal of the Terror of Death has been followed by any encreased Frequency of the Crime. The Laws have generally been invigorated by such wholesome Relaxation, and Experience has confirmed the great Axioms which speculative Philosophers and practised Moralists had long since inculcated, namely, that Capital Punishments rarely hinder the Commission of a Crime, but often prevent its Detection, and that the Certainty of a Sentence, comparatively mild, extirpates Wickedness more effectually than the Dread of a Punishment which the common Feelings of Mankind deem disproportionate to the Offence, and therefore scruple to concur with the Community in inflicting.

"5.-Because, if Justice enjoins the Necessity of proportioning the Punishment to the Moral Turpitude of an Offence, Prudence no less requires that the Compassion likely to be produced by such Punishment should not exceed the Indignation generally excited by the Perpetration of the Crime, and that the Penalty should be regulated by the State of Public Opinion at the Time and in the Country where such Law is enacted or allowed to continue; but in this instance the Frequency of Pardons, the numerous Petitions of the People, and the Votes of the Commons House of Parliament, sufficiently attest that the Punishment by Death of Criminals convicted of Forgery is abhorrent to the Spirit of the Age, contrary to the Judgment of the English Publick, and revolting to the Feelings of the Community."

"VASSALL HOLLAND.

"RICHMOND, THIRD & FIFTH REASONS.

"DURHAM."

read 3a, & passed:

Then it was moved, "That the said Bill be now read the Third Time."

The Question was put thereupon?

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Then the said Bill was read the Third Time.

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill, with the Amendments, shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H.C. with Amendments to it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by the former Messengers;

To return the said Bill, and acquaint them, That the Lords have agreed to the same, with some Amendments, to which their Lordships desire their Concurrence.

References to Acts Mistakes Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Alexander Grant and others;

With a Bill, intituled, "An Act for correcting mistaken References to Acts of His late Majesty in Acts passed during the present Session of Parliament;" to which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

The said Bill was read the First Time.

Surrey Coal Meters Bill:

The Order of the Day being read for the Third Reading of the Bill, intituled, "An Act to continue, until the Fifth Day of July One thousand eight hundred and thirty-one, an Act passed in the Ninth Year of His late Majesty's Reign, to enable His Majesty's Justices of the Peace for the County of Surrey to nominate and appoint Two or more Persons to act as Principal Land Coal Meters within and for the several Places therein mentioned;"

The said Bill was accordingly read the Third Time.

Then it was moved, "in Press 2, Line 17, to leave out from ("mentioned") to ("Provided") in Line 24."

Which being objected to;

The Question was put, "Whether the Words proposed to be left out shall stand Part of the Bill?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

The Question was put, "Whether this Bill shall pass?"

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Message to H.C. that the Lords have agreed to it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by by the former Messengers;

To acquaint them, That the Lords have agreed to the said Bill, without any Amendment.

Administration of Justice Bill.

The Order of the Day being read for the Lords to be summoned;

It was moved, "That the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the more effectual Administration of Justice in England and Wales," be now read a Second Time."

The Question was put thereupon?

It was resolved in the Affirmative.

Then the said Bill was read a Second Time.

Ordered, That the said Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

Ordered, That the House be put into a Committee upon the said Bill on Friday next; and that the Lords be summoned.

Diocesan Schools (Ireland) Bill reported:

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend an Act of the Fifty-third Year of King George the Third, for the Appointment of Commissioners for the Regulation of the several Endowed Schools of public and private Foundation in Ireland."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

To be read 3a.

Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Third Time To-morrow.

Stage Coach Proprietors Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for the more effectual Protection of Mail Contractors, Stage Coach Proprietors, and other common Carriers for Hire, against the Loss of or Injury to Parcels or Packages delivered to them for Conveyance or Custody, the Value and Contents of which shall not be declared to them by the Owners thereof."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and made several Amendments thereto, which he was ready to report, when the House will please to receive the same."

Ordered, That the said Report be received To-morrow.

Witnesses Expences (Ireland) Bill reported:

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to explain and amend an Act of the Fifty-fifth Year of King George the Third, for the Payment of Costs and Charges to Prosecutors and Witnesses in Cases of Felony in Ireland."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

To be read 3a.

Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Third Time To-morrow.

Consolidated Fund Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to apply the Sum of One million five hundred thousand Pounds out of the Consolidated Fund to the Service of the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty; and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

Exchequer Bills Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for raising the Sum of Thirteen millions six hundred and seven thousand six hundred Pounds, by Exchequer Bills, for the Service of the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

Warehoused Sugar Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to allow, before the Fifth Day of July One thousand eight hundred and thirty one, Sugar to be delivered out of Warehouse to be refined."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

Beer & Cyder Duties Bill reported:

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to repeal certain of the Duties on Cyder in the United Kingdom, and on Beer and Ale in Great Britain, and to make other Provisions in relation thereto."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

To be read 3a.

Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Third Time To-morrow.

Fisheries Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to revive, continue and amend several Acts relating to the Fisheries."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

Militia Pay Bill.

The House (according to Order) was adjourned during Pleasure, and put into a Committee upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to defray the Charge of the Pay, Clothing and contingent and other Expences of the Disembodied Militia in Great Britain and Ireland; and to grant Allowances, in certain Cases, to Subaltern Officers, Adjutants, Paymasters, Quartermasters, Surgeons, Assistant Surgeons, Surgeons Mates and Serjeant Majors of the Militia, until the Twenty-fifth Day of June One thousand eight hundred and thirty-one."

After some Time, the House was resumed:

And The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Committee, "That they had gone through the Bill, and directed him to report the same to the House, without any Amendment."

Russell's Estate Bill, Order for 2a.

Ordered, That the Bill, intituled, "An Act to effect an Exchange of Part of the Estates in the County of Durham devised by the Will and Codicil of William Russell Esquire, deceased, for Part of the Estates comprised in the Settlement made in pursuance of the Articles upon the Marriage of The Most Honorable Charles William Vane Marquess of Londonderry with The Most Honorable Frances Anne Vane Marchioness of Londonderry," be read a Second Time To-morrow.

Motion for shortening the Com ee on it.

The House was moved, "That the Standing Order No. 94, directing that no Committee shall sit upon any Private Bill until Ten Days after the Second Reading thereof, may be so far dispensed with as relates to the last-mentioned Bill."

Ordered, That the said Motion be taken into Consideration To-morrow; and that the Lords be summoned.

Address of H.C. respecting Sir J. Barrington further considered.

The Order of the Day being read for taking into further Consideration the Address communicated by the Commons at the Conference on the 25th Day of May last, for the Removal of Sir Jonah Barrington from the Office of Judge of the High Court of Admiralty in Ireland; and for hearing the said Sir Jonah Barrington, by himself or his Counsel, against any Charge to be brought against him; and for the Lords to be summoned;

The Counsel and Sir Jonah Barrington were accordingly called in.

Then George Bamford was called in; and having been sworn, was examined as follows:

(Mr. Solicitor General.) "Did you serve a Notice upon Sir Jonah Barrington?"

"I did."

"Will you look at that?" (A Paper being shown to the Witness.) "Is that the Notice you served?"

"That is the Notice with a Copy of which I served him."

"What is the Date of that?"

"June the Sixteenth."

The same was delivered in, and read as follows:

"IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

"In the Matter of Sir Jonah Barrington, Judge of the High Court of Admiralty in Ireland.

"Take notice, That you are hereby required to produce at the next Hearing of this Proceeding a certain Letter, bearing Date on or about the 25th Day of July in the Year 1825, addressed to you, Sir Jonah Barrington, by Daniel Pineau Esquire, the Registrar of the said High Court of Admiralty, touching and concerning (amongst other Things) a certain Order in the Redstrand Derelict to lodge the Sum of 200l. in the Bank of Sir Thomas Gleadowe and Company, and a certain Order to pay 40l. to Henry Pyne Masters; and also a certain other Letter, bearing Date on or about the 27th Day of August in the Year 1825, addressed to you the said Sir Jonah Barrington by the said Daniel Pineau, touching and concerning (amongst other Things) the said Order to lodge 200l., and the lodging of the said Sum, and the drawing out of the same by you, and the Payment of the said Sum of 40l. to the said Henry Pyne Masters; and also a certain other Letter, bearing Date the 30th August in the Year 1827, addressed to you the said Sir Jonah Barrington by the said Daniel Pineau, touching and concerning (amongst other Things) the Lodgement of the said 200l., and the paying to the said Henry Pyne Masters the said Sum of 40l.; and also all other Letters addressed to you the said Sir Jonah Barrington by the said Daniel Pineau, touching and concerning the said Two several Sums of 200l. and 40l., or any Orders relating thereto, or to either of them; and also a certain Petition of Henry Pyne Masters, in a certain Cause of The King in His Office of Admiralty against a certain Brig or Vessel found derelict, and brought to Redstrand, in the County of Cork, addressed to you the said Sir Jonah Barrington, as Judge of His Majesty's High Court of Admiralty, praying (among other Things) to be reimbursed the several Sums expended by the Petitioner in protecting the said Vessel and Cargo, and at the Foot of which an Order was made, and signed by you the said Sir Jonah Barrington, on the 29th May 1810, as such Judge, on the Registrar, to pay the Petitioner a further Sum of 40l. on account of his extraordinary Expences. Dated this 16th Day of June 1830.

Sir Jonah Barrington was asked, "Whether he produced the Letters to which the Notice referred."

Sir Jonah Barrington stated, "That he had in his Possession only One of the Letters in question; and that not having had Notice that the Matter was to be brought on To-day, he was not prepared to produce it; but that he was ready to admit the Copy of that Letter, being a Letter dated on the 25th of July 1825."

The same was delivered in, and read as follows:

"No. 131, St. Stephen's Green, 25th July 1825.

"My dear Sir,

"Mr. Keating leaving Ireland To-morrow, I beg leave, in a Hurry, to acquaint you, that I have just now received a Communication under the Orders of The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, calling upon me for Payment of all Droit Funds in my Hands not as yet handed over to the Crown, with me or in my Books. I find, on a cursory View, your Order in the Redstrand Derelict to lodge 200l., the only Sum I received in that Cause, in Gleadowe's, to your Credit in that Cause, which you since drew out of that Bank; and I find that you gave an Order on me, on the 29th May 1810, to pay 40l. to Henry Pyne Masters; and I find that I paid that Sum, though I had heretofore paid said 200l,.; and I find that I paid said 40l. through Respect to you, to prevent H. Pyne Masters from presenting a Petition to The Lord Lieutenant against you, as also other Sums to silence Clamour, without revealing to any Person but your then Surrogate, Dr. Mahaffy, for your Information, on the Occasion of a Notice made in said Cause for the Payment of some Salvage. I beg you will order Payment to be made to me, otherwise I must state the Transactions as they occurred; but I would not do so, fearing the Consequence to you, without first giving Opportunity, by your Answer, of averting such an Exposure.

"I have not Time to say more at present, than that I have the Honour to remain, with due Respect,

"Your most obedient Servant,

Then Daniel Pineau was again called in, and further examined as follows:

(Mr. Solicitor General.) "Be so good as to look at that Letter." (A Paper being shown to the Witness.) By whom is the Signature "Jonah Barrington," and the Body of the Letter, written?"

"The Signature is the Handwriting of Sir Jonah Barrington, and the whole of the Letter is also in the Handwriting of Sir Jonah Barrington."

"Did you hear the Letter read of the 25th of July 1825?"

"I did."

"Is this Letter the Answer you received from Sir Jonah Barrington to your Letter?"

"It is the Answer I received to that Letter."

The same was delivered in, and read as follows:

"Boulogne-sur-Mer, 4th August 1829.

"My dear Sir,

"I just received yours, and have to thank you much for the Spirit in which it is written; but I must assure you that, and I have no doubt you will believe me, I have not now the most remote Recollection of the Circumstance you mention; it is above Fifteen Years, and great Part of that Period you know was sufficiently confusing to leave my Mind a Blank on a great Portion of former Occurrences; this I am quite sure of, that every Act of mine was with the Knowledge and Approbation of Dr. Duigenan; nothing in that Court was unknown to him; I had been put to enormous Expence for my Year protecting the Jurisdiction; and both the Proceedings and the Funds he was always acquainted with. I am not informed by you of any Particulars; what Order, whereon, and to what Purpose, and what Entries or Orders have you? I must, of course, wish to know accurately every Circumstance respecting so unexpected a Demand. All I can say is this, enclose me, as soon as possible, every thing proper for me to be acquainted with on the Subject, upon the Receipt of which, I shall direct my Agent to see and fully communicate with you on the Subject forthwith. Totally ignorant as I am now on the Subject, I can only say, that if any Order was made by me which could in any way affect you as Registrar, it is but just and fitting that it should be set right without Delay, and certainly shall. Age (closing 70) and much Thought have blunted my Recollection of numerous Events.

"I suppose any Order you received is in the general Cause, after the Junction of the Treasuries. I write this now in the Room of the Secretary to the British Treasury, Mr. Harrison. I asked him if any Orders had been given them as to Droits; he replied in the Negative: he goes to London To-day, and he will let me know.

"I am desirous to know the Sum of any such Order, and beg you will give me full Information, and be under no Apprehension. Nothing can go wrong. You certainly shall not be an Hour without the Sum you mention, if it be proper; but it is just I should see from you the Nature of the Demand, for I do not understand it. The sooner you write to me the better.

"My dear Sir, ever yours truly,

"Jonah Barrington."

"Is that a Copy of a Letter which you wrote to Sir Jonah Barrington?" (A Paper being shown to the Witness.)

"It is."

"Did you get an Answer to that Letter?"

"I did."

"Is that the Answer you received?" (A Paper being shown to the Witness.)

"This is the Answer of Sir Jonah Barrington which I got to the Letter, a Copy of which I have just seen."

Sir Jonah Barrington was asked, "Whether he produced the original Letter in question?"

Sir Jonah Barrington stated, "That he was unable to find either that or the other Letter referred to in the Notice."

Mr. Attorney General submitted, "That having proved the Receipt of a Letter from Sir Jonah Barrington in answer to the Letter in question addressed to him, he was entitled to read the Letter to which the said Letter was an Answer."

Sir Jonah Barrington submitted, "That it was not proved that he had received the Letter of which The Attorney General desired to read a Copy."

(By a Lord.) "In what Way did you send the Letter to Sir Jonah Barrington?"

"By Post."

"How soon afterwards did you receive that which you considered an Answer to it?"

"In due Course after the Date of the Letter that I have just now seen."

"Did you put the Letter into the Post yourself?"

"I did. The one that I put into the Post was dated the 27th of August 1825; and the Answer I got from Sir Jonah Barrington was dated the 10th October 1825, and was an Answer to my Letter."

"To what Place was the Letter you addressed to Sir Jonah Barrington addressed?"

"It was addressed to him at Boulogne-sur-Mer; and his Answer acknowledges something of that Letter, as I conceive."

"From what Place was his Answer addressed?"

Sir Jonah's Answer was dated from London.

(Sir Jonah Barrington.) "Do you keep any Letter Book?"

"I do."

"Did you make an Entry of that Letter in your Letter Book?"

"That is my Copy of the Letter I wrote to Sir Jonah Barrington, and the only Copy of that Letter."

(By a Lord.) "Did you keep a Letter Book in which you entered Copies of Letters that you sent?"

"I did not. I have a Letter Book in which I occasionally enter Letters; not always; not regularly." (Sir Jonah Barrington.) "Have you got your Letter Book here?"

"No, I have not."

The Counsel were informed, "That the House were of opinion that the Two Letters in question might be read."

The same were delivered in, and read as follow:

"131. St, Stephen's Green, 27th August 1825.

"My dear Sir,

"I received your Letter of the 4th in due Course, stating your total Want of Recollection of the Subject of mine of the 25th Ultimo, (though I had often mentioned it, for your Information, to your late Surrogate Doctor Mahaffy, who was then in habits of communicating with you,) desiring to be informed as to the Order, the Date and Purpose, and what Entry of Order I have; in reply to which I beg leave to state, that in the Cause of The King against the Redstrand Derelict, in which you appointed Mr. Blacker Co-commissioner with the Marshal on the 4th of January 1810, you pronounced an Order directing that said Commissioners should forthwith transfer to me 200l., deposited in their Names in Bank (which they had refused to pay to you, in consequence of which you made that Order to transfer it to me). They accordingly paid same to me on or about the 12th January 1810, on which Day you ordered me to lodge it in Gleadowe's Bank; on which Day I did so, to the great Dissatisfaction of the interested Parties; and have the Bank Receipt, accountable to Sir Jonah Barrington, as Judge of His Majesty's High Court of Admiralty, in the Cause of The King against the Redstrand Derelict; which Money you immediately drew out of that Bank, but for what Purpose I do not know. On the 29th May 1810 I paid your Order, without Funds, but through my Respect for the Judge of the Court, and to save him from the Consequences of a Petition to Government, 40l. to Henry Pyne Masters, also 9l. to one Wycherly, claiming Salvage out of said 200l., to prevent him also from petitioning. Therefore I apprehend it is quite clear, if you believe me, that you are to pay me those Sums, amounting to 249l. (with Interest, I might say, but which I do not add.) We have got a Civilian, a Judge, and a Gentleman in Sir Henry Meredyth.

"I have the Honour to remain, with due Respect, yours faithfully,

"London, 10th October 1825.

"Dear Sir,

"I have been here these Three Weeks, waiting to see Lyons; he is only a few Days arrived. I have communicated to him Circumstances respecting your Letter, of which you are totally ignorant, and which I do not choose to write; and I have mentioned it to high Authorities here. I did not at first mention your Letter, but do now, and only mention (by Letter) that I have my Claim upon Government above Ten Times what you mention, and in the same Line, and on a confidental Engagement, which it would be disagreeable to me and not pleasing to others to bring forward. Lyons will somewhat explain to you; he is the only Person I have entrusted this with, and at present I shall not explain it to any Person but him. I have not seen the Order you mention, and until Mr. Lyons talks with you, I shall forbear any further Observations. Yours truly,

(Signed) "J. Barrington."

"Daniel Pineau, Esq., &c. &c. &c."

(Mr. Attorney General.) "Had you seen Mr. Lyons, the Gentleman named in that Letter, previously to receiving that Letter of the 10th of October?"

"No, I had not."

"Did you see him afterwards upon the Subject of Sir Jonah Barrington?"

"I did."

The Attorney General stated, "That he had finished the Case he had to present to the House."

Sir Jonah Barrington was then asked what Course he intended to pursue.

Sir Jonah Barrington stated, "That the first Part of his Case would consist of the Cross examination of Mr. Pineau; but that he was not prepared to proceed with that, in consequence of not having had an Opportunity of seeing certain Books which had just arrived from Ireland. He also stated, that he wished to examine Two Witnesses who had not yet arrived from Ireland, but whom he expected in One or Two Days; also to put in certain Documents, and to make such Observations as the Case appeared to call for."

Sir Jonah Barrington was informed, "That the further Consideration of this Matter would be postponed until To-morrow; and that, in the mean time, he would be allowed to have free Access to the Books and Documents which are in the Possession of the Officers of the House."

The Counsel and Sir Jonah Barrington were directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That the further Consideration of the said Address be put off 'till To-morrow; and that the Lords be summoned.

East Retford Election Bill, 8th Report from Com ee on Expences of Witnesses.

The Earl of Shaftesbury reported from the Lords Committees appointed a Select Committee to enquire respecting the Expences of the Witnesses on the Bill, intituled, "An Act to prevent Bribery and Corruption in the Election of Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of East Retford;" and to report from Time to Time as to what it may be proper to do therein; "That the Committee had again met, and inspected further Accounts of Expences and Claims for Remuneration for Loss of Time of certain of the Witnesses against the said Bill who were Ordered by the House to attend; which Accounts were laid before the Committee by Charles Henry Moore, one of the Solicitors to the said Parties; and the Committee are of Opinion, That as these Witnesses had been served with the Order of the House to attend, it is reasonable and proper that they should be allowed the several Sums set opposite to their Names in the annexed Abstract: The Committee had also inspected an Account delivered in by the Serjeant at Arms of The House of Lords, (the Amount of which appears in the annexed Abstract,) of Charges and Expences attending the serving of the Witnesses against the said Bill with the Orders of The House; and the Committee are of Opinion, That it is proper that the said Account should be allowed.

"Abstract of Expences of certain Witnesses against the East Retford Election Bill; together with an Account of the Serjeant at Arms of The House of Lords.

Which Report, being read by the Clerk, was agreed to by the House.

Adjourn.

Dominus Cancellarius declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque ad et in diem Mercurii, decimum quartum diem instantis Julii, horâ undecimâ Auroræ, Dominis sic decernentibus.