House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 15 April 1643

JOURNALS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

Anno 19° Caroli Regis, 1643.

DIE Sabbati, videlicet, 15 die Aprilis.

PRAYERS.

Earl of Manchester, Speaker.

Lady Crispe, a Pass.

Ordered, That the Lady Crispe shall have a Pass, to come from Oxford to London.

E. of Lindsey, upon Parole.

The Earl of Lyndsey being now come to London, upon his passing of his Honour to be a true Prisoner; it is Ordered, That his Lordship give his Word, upon his Honour, to the Speaker of this House, That, as soon as he hath dispatched his Business in London, that he repair to the Lord, to render himself a Prisoner, and to be disposed of as he shall think fit.

Hinton, a Pass.

Ordered, That Mr. Hinton shall have a Pass, to go into France, for his Health.

Lady Mannors, Ditto.

Ordered, That the Lady Mannors shall have a Pass, to go into Flanders.

Signior Francisco Bernardi, Ditto.

Ordered, That Signior Francisco Bernardi, Agent to the Ambassador of Spaine, shall have a Pass, to go to Oxford, to His Majesty, and return again to London.

Signior Gioseppe de Silvas y Vera, Ditto.

Ordered, That Signior Gioseppe de Silvas y Vera, and his Interpreter Phillip Verdi, shall have a Pass, to go to Oxford, and return again to London.

Captain Player to be attached, for disobeying the Order of this House, for restoring Mr. Cary's Horses.

Upon reading the Affidavit of John Cooke, "That he served the Order of this House upon Captain Player, for the restoring of Mr. Carie's Horses, which Order the Captain said he would not deny; but said, they were taken by Warrant from the Council or Committee of War; and that he could not however deliver them till he had a Discharge from them."

Hereupon this House (fn. 1) Ordered, That the said Captain Player shall be attached, and brought before this House as a Delinquent, for disobeying the Order of this House; and that the Horses shall be restored.

The Speaker acquainted the House, "That he hath received a Letter from the Earl of Northumb. and some Papers concerning the Treaty."

The Letter was read, as followeth:

Earl of Northumberland's Letter, about Ash's Cloaths being restored, the Scots Commissioners, and the Treaty, &c.

"My Lord,

"We have yet received no Answer concerning Mr. Ash's Cloaths, but expect it daily; we presented a Paper to His (fn. 2) Majesty Yesterday, concerning the Scotts Commissioners, according to our Instructions, and are in Expectation of an Answer thereunto, which we pressed this Afternoon; and the King told us, He would not yet do it, because His Hands were so full of the Business of the Treaty, and the Time so short for it, but He would speedily do it; we intend to move the King further in that Business, if there shall be Occasion. I have sent your Lordships herewith Six Papers, which were delivered to His Majesty upon the Instructions brought to us on Sunday last, and Five Papers which His Majesty gave us this Day in Answer to them, with Two of ours this Evening presented to His Majesty thereupon; in that of His Majesty's concerning Ships, your Lordship will find a further Answer to be given to that of ours, to induce Him to give a further Answer; in the Point of Magazines, Castles, and Forts, His Majesty told us He would give us His Answer final. I shall give your Lordship a faithful Account of my Service at my return to London, which shall now be with all convenient Speed, according to your Lordships Directions; and shall ever remain,

"Your Lordship's humble Servant,
A. Northumb."

Next, the Papers were read. (Here enter them.)

Lord Kenoul's Horses released.

Ordered, That the Lord of Kenowle's Horses, being stayed, shall be presently restored to him; and that De Luke, that took them away, shall be sent for, to answer the same to this House.

Earl of Newport's Servant, a Pass.

Ordered, That a Servant of the Earl of Newport shall have a Pass, to go to Oxon, and return back again, with some Cloaths and other Goods of the Earl of Newport.

Ordered, That the Papers received from the Earl of Northumb. shall be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference.

Paper from the French King, about the Capuchins at Denmark House.

The House being informed, "That the King of France hath sent a Paper, by his Agent, touching the Capuchins;" it was Resolved, To communicate the same to the House of Commons, and desire them to consider of it before they be sent away out of this Kingdom; and that the sending of them away be deferred for a Time, that so the Consequence of the Danger that might ensue may be considered; they being not now in the Nature of a Convent, but as Chaplains to the Queen; and the sending of them away in this Manner will be accounted by the French King as a Breach of Public Faith.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it, and some Papers from Oxford.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

To desire a Conference, so soon as it may stand with their Conveniency, concerning some Papers received from the Earl of Northum. at Oxford, and concerning a Letter from the French King, touching the Capuchins.

Message from thence, for a Conference about granting Passes from Oxford.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by the Lord Cranborne:

To desire a Conference, touching a Letter from Sir Wm. Waller and Sir Arthur Haselrigg, and touching granting of Passes from Oxford.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will give a present Conference, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Col. Hurrey, a Pass.

Ordered, That Colonel Hurrey shall have a Pass, with his Wife and Children and Family, to go into Scotland.

Answer from the H. C.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer:

That they will give a present Conference, as is desired.

E. of Chesterfield to be brought up.

Ordered, That the former Order of this House, for the bringing up the Earl of Chesterfeild to London, is hereby confirmed, and is to (fn. 3) be obeyed; and that the Earl of Chesterfeild shall have Permission to have his Lady and Four Servants, a Physician, and an Apothecary, to come to him during the Time he remains in Wingfeild Castle.

Mr. Clarke, a Pass to Holland.

Ordered, That Mr. Clarke, with his Man, shall have a Pass, to go into Holland, and shall have a Post Warrant for Horses to bring them to the Sea Side.

Brandon, a Pass.

Ordered, That Joseph Brandon shall have a Pass, to go into Warwickeshire, and return again to London.

The Substance of the Conference was to be this: videlicet,

Heads for the Conference on the Papers from Oxford.

"My Lords will deliver no Opinion of the Particulars of these Answers; but they have commanded me to observe unto you in the general, they find them to be fair and smooth, and such as upon the Breach of the Treaty there may be Use made of them to the Kingdom, to engage them in a Belief that Peace is most desired by the King: Therefore my Lords wish we may so resolve, both in our Actions and Answers, that we may not find a Prejudice by the Opinion of these Expressions; and that they desire that this Afternoon, at Four a Clock, the Committee formerly named may meet, and frame an Answer."

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Report of the Conference, about granting Passes from Oxford.

The Speaker (fn. 4) reported the Effect of the Conference; which was:

"A Letter of Sir Wm. Waller's was read. (Here enter the Letter.) And they desired that the same may be printed and published; and that a Letter may be written to (fn. 5) Sir Wm. Waller and Sir Arthur Haselrigg, to give them Thanks for their faithful and good Service to the Parliament, and to encourage them therein.

"2. They desire their Lordships to pass the Order for restraining any coming from Oxford without the Pass of both Houses, or the Lord General, in regard of the great Inconvenience that comes to the Kingdom thereby; and whereas their Lordships gave a Pass for the Lady Byron to go to Oxford, she was stayed, and she had Letters of dangerous Consequence found about (fn. 4) her, and one Sir Thomas Alcocke with her, that had no Pass; therefore they desire their Lordships would please to suspend the said Pass for a Time, until the House of Commons had examined the Business."

Lady Byron's Pass suspended.

Ordered, That this House agrees with the House of Commons for suspending the Lady Byron's Pass.

Ordered, That the Consideration of the Order for restraining Persons coming from Oxford shall be debated this Afternoon, with the Committee of the House of Commons, how it may be fitly done without Prejudice to this House.

Letter of Thanks to Sir Wm. Waller and Sir Arth. Haselrigg.

Ordered, That this House agrees with the House of Commons, in printing Sir Wm. Waller's Letter, and writing of a Letter to Sir Wm. Waller and Sir Arthur Haselrigge.

Message from the H. C. about this Matter.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Bennett and Dr. Heath:

To let the House of Commons know, that their Lordships do agree to the printing of Sir Wm. Waller's Letter, and writing a Letter of Thanks to him for his good Service; and to desire that the Committee that meets this Afternoon may consider how the Order for restraining Persons coming from Oxford without the Pass of both Houses, or from the Lord General, may be done without Prejudice to this House; and to let them know, that this House agrees to suspend the Lady Byron's Order for a Time.

Sir Wm. Waller's and Sir Ar. Haselrigg's Letter from Gloucester, of the Proceedings of their Army.

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"We hear it is not well taken, that you heard not of the taking of the Welch at Highnam, nor of the Loss of Malmsbury: Upon our coming to Gloucester, we immediately sent; it seems many of our Letters miscarry. For Malmesbury, we committed it to Sir Edward Hungerford; we left him not without Commanders; he had Two Serjeant Majors, able Men, and the Companies of his own Regiment, and a Company of Dragooners, with Ammunition, and Two Hundred Muskets to put into the Countrymens Hands, that offered themselves very freely: We conceived that Sir Edward Hungerford's Power in the Country, with that Strength, would easily have defended that Place; but, for Reasons best known to himself, he quitted it. It was not for us to have stood long there, nor for the Advancement of your Service for us to garrison Towns, unless it is intended we shall leave the Field. From Maulmsbury, marching Day and Night, we came to Framlott Ferry; and, having our Boats from Gloucester ready, we passed our Army over Severne, and forthwith to Huntly, and so to Highnam, where, before the Enemy had any Notice, we fell upon their Backs, and, in a short Time, without the Loss of above Two, they rendered up the Place upon Quarter, where we had Fourteen Hundred and Fortyfour common Prisoners well armed, Commanders and Gentlemen about One Hundred and Fifty, many of the chief of Wales and Herefordshire. We then marched for Wales: The Welch left their Garrisons; they quitted Newnam, Rosbridge, Monmouth, Chepstowe: We entered those Towns, very weary of the Welch Ways over the Mountains, and sensible of their Wants; and hearing Prince Maurice was near us on the one Side, and the Lord Herbert with his contracted Garrisons on the other, and not being able to overtake the Lord Herbert's Forces without Hazard of the Rocks, so resolved for Gloucester, through Prince Mawrice's Army; and upon Monday at Night, being the 10th of this Instant, having sent away our Ordinance and Baggage, with our Foot to guard it over Wye, to Aust, and so on the far Side the River for Gloucester, we marched from Chepstowe all Night, for Prince Maurice's Quarters, with our Horses and Dragoons. He quartered at Little Deane, and his Forces at Newnam, Michell, Deane, and Rosse; the right Time for beating up a Quarter was passed before we gained Newnam. Upon the First Alarm at Newnham, away they hasted to Little Deane: There we found their Foot in a Body, and their Horse on a Hill upon the other Side of the Town. Their Foot came towards us; and, having given One Volley of Shot, they retired, and our Dragoons following in Order entered the Town; so we had full Possession of the Prince's Quarters. We stood about Three Hours, expecting their Charge; the Report being, they had vowed we shall never return. Our Design at this Time was only to make our Way through their Army; so, leaving a forlorn Hope of Horse and Dragoons to keep the Passage in the Town, we marched in their Sight towards Gloucester. When they saw us gone, they came down from their Hill, and fell hotly upon our forlorn Hope; and some few they killed, and some they took. We conceive their Loss was as great; that they lost as many Men, and Two of very good Quality. Last Night we came to Gloucester, and sent forth Lieutenant Colonel Massy for to take Tewxbury, which this Morning he did. There were Eight Commanders; but we missed Colonel Slater, he being gone last Night to give Information at Oxford that all Sir Wm. Waller's Forces were routed. We doubt not but you will hear strange Reports. Believe this, God hath been good unto us beyond our Thoughts. The taking and keeping of Tewxbury is of great Consequence to these Parts: Prince Maurice's Design of taking us in the Forest is now spoiled, and so have we the Bridge he passed over; but, to make Haste, we fear he will find another before we can give a Stop. If not, we hope he may taste a little of Wales as well as we have done. We writ you a Letter for some Arms and Ammunition; we earnestly beg they may be sent, and Two Hundred Horsemen's Swords of Kennett's making at Hounslowe. We desire your Praises of God, and your Prayers for,

"My Lords and Gentlemen,
Your faithful Servants,
William Waller,
Arth. Hesilrige.

Glouc. this 12th April, 1643.

"We are now marching towards Tewxbury."

"April 10, 1643.

Paper from the Committee, about the Magazines, and enlarging the Time for the Treaty.

"1. By Instructions Yesterday received from both Houses of Parliament, we are commanded humbly to desire Your Majesty to make a further Answer to that Clause of the First Proposition which concerns the Magazines; and we are humbly to acquaint Your Majesty, that the Two Houses of Parliament do not think fit to enlarge the Time of the Treaty beyond the Twenty Days formerly limited, to be reckoned from the 25th of March last, which can admit no Alteration or Enlargement without manifold Prejudice and Danger to the whole Kingdom.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
W. Armyne.
W. Pierrepont.
B. Whitlock."

"April 14, 1643.

The King's Answer.

"1. His Majesty, having made several Answers (fn. 6) to that Clause of the First Proposition which concerns the Magazines, knows not what Answer to make further, except He were informed what Part of the Propositions made to Him was not clearly answered, or had Reasons given Him to change and alter the Answer already made; neither of which is yet done. And He is very sorry that both Houses of Parliament have not thought fit to enlarge the Power of the Committee (whereby less Time would have served for the Treaty), and are so absolutely resolved not to enlarge the Time of the Treaty beyond the Twenty Days, which (by Messages and attending the Instructions of the House) are so near spent, notwithstanding all possible Readiness in His Majesty, and which in Truth might have ended all the Propositions, if sufficient Authority had been given to the Persons employed to debate and conclude; neither can His Majesty understand why an Alteration or Enlargement in the Point of Time cannot be admitted without manifold Prejudice and Danger to the whole Kingdom: He prays to God, that an Averseness to such an Alteration and Enlargement may not prove an unspeakable Prejudice and Danger to the whole Kingdom.

"Falkland."

"April 10, 1643.

Paper from the Committee, about the Cinque Ports.

"2. By Instructions Yesterday received from both Houses of Parliament, we are commanded humbly to desire another Answer from Your Majesty, concerning the Cinque Ports, Towns, Forts, and Castles; Your Majesty's former Answers concerning them being in the most material Points express Denials, as both Houses of Parliament understand them.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 14, 1643.

The King's Answer.

"2. His Majesty will not at this Time remember the many Acts of Grace and Favour He hath passed this Parliament for the Good of His People; but He must say, He hath not denied any One Thing proposed to Him by both Houses, which in Justice could be required of Him, or in Reason expected; and He hath been, and is still, so unwilling to give a Denial to both His Houses, that, as they shall be sure to receive none to any Propositions they shall make of Right, so, in Matters of Grace and Favour, He shall be willing to receive any Information and Reason, which at any Time may invite Him to consent; and therefore will gladly receive any Reason from the Committee, or both Houses, which may induce His Majesty to give another Answer than what He hath already given in the Point of the Cinque Ports, Forts, and Castles; but, till such be given, He cannot consent to dispossess any of His Servants of what they are legally possessed, and without a just Cause expressed, or to quit His own Right of sole disposing of their Commands, no other Causes yet appearing to Him than that the Places they command have been taken from Him.

"April 10, 1643.

Paper from the Committee, concerning the Fleet.

"3. By Instructions Yesterday received from both Houses of Parliament, we are commanded humbly to insist upon the Desires of both Houses expressed in our former Papers concerning the Ships; and both Houses of Parliament do observe, in Your Majesty's Answer, not only a Denial to all their Desires, but a Censure upon their Proceedings.

"A. Northumberland.
Jo. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelock."

"14 April, 1643.

The King's Answer.

"3. His Majesty for the present forbears any further Answer touching His Ships, desiring first to receive the Answer of both Houses to His Message of the 12th of this Month; but His Majesty will howsoever, before their Departure hence, give them a further Answer.

"Falkland."

"April 10, 1643.

Paper from the Committee, about the Oaths of Officers.

"4. By Instructions Yesterday received from both Houses of Parliament, we are commanded humbly to inform Your Majesty, that both Houses of Parliament conceive the ordinary Oaths of the Officers, mentioned in Your Answer concerning the same, are not sufficient to secure them against the extraordinary Causes of Jealousy which have been given them in these troublesome Times; and that Your Majesty's Answer lays some Tax upon the Parliament, as if defective, thereby incapable of making such a provisional Law for an Oath: Therefore we are humbly to insist upon our former Desires for such an Oath as is mentioned in those Papers which we have formerly presented to Your Majesty concerning this Matter.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrpont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 14, 1643.

The King's Answer.

"4. His Majesty did not refuse, by His former Answer, to consent to any such Oaths as shall be thought necessary, though He did and doth still conceive the Oaths already settled by Law to be sufficient; neither did He ever suppose the Parliament incapable of making a provisional Law for such an Oath; but, as He would be willing to apply any proper Remedy to the extraordinary Causes of Jealousy if He could see that there were such Causes, so He will be always most exact in observing the Articles agreed on, in preserving the true Reformed Protestant Religion, and the Peace of the Kingdom, against all Foreign Forces raised or employed against Law; and, when both Houses shall prepare and present such an Oath as they shall make appear to His Majesty to be necessary to those Ends, His Majesty will readily consent unto it.

"Falkland."

"April 10, 1643.

Paper from the Committee, about disbanding the Armies;

"5. By Instructions Yesterday received from both Houses of Parliament, we are commanded humbly to insist upon that Part of the First Proposition of both Houses of Parliament concerning the Disbanding, according to the Papers we have formerly presented to Your Majesty thereupon; and we are humbly to acquaint Your Majesty, that both Houses of Parliament do conceive Your Majesty's Answer concerning the Disbanding to be in Effect a Denial, unless they desert all those Cautions and Limitations which they have desired in their Answers to Your Majesty's First Proposition.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrpont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 10, 1643.

And about the King's Return to the Parliament.

"His Majesty's Return to the Parliament:

"6. By Instructions from both Houses of Parliament Yesterday received, we are commanded to declare unto Your Majesty the Desire of both Houses for Your Majesty's coming to Your Parliament, which they have often expressed, with full Offers of Security to Your Royal Person, agreeable to their Duty and Allegiance; and they know no Cause why Your Majesty may not return thither with Honour and Safety: But they did not insert it into our Instructions, because they conceived the Disbanding of the Armies would have facilitated Your Majesty's Resolution therein, which they likewise conceived was agreeable (fn. 7) to Your Majesty's Sense, who, in declaring Your Consent to the Order of the Treaty, did only mention that Part of the First Proposition which concerned the Disbanding, and did omit that which concerned Your Majesty's coming to both Houses of Parliament.

"Al. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 14, 1643.

The King's Answer.

"6. His Majesty had great Reason to expect that, as He answered to every Part of the First Proposition of both Houses, so the Committee should likewise have had Power and Instructions to treat with His Majesty concerning both Parts of the same; nor had the Houses any Reason to suppose their Course agreeable to His Majesty's Sense; for His Majesty, in declaring His Consent to the Order of the Treaty, indeed mentioned their First Proposition by the Stile of ["The First Proposition, which concerned Disbanding"]; but did not stile it ["That Part of the First Proposition which concerned Disbanding"]; as, if He had meant to have excluded any Part of that Proposition from being treated on, He would and ought to have done: But, though His Majesty's Answer in Point of Disbanding, and Return to His Parliament, were as particular and as satisfactory as His Majesty had Cause to make or could well give, till this latter Part were consented unto to be treated upon; yet, out of His great Desire of Peace, and of complying with both Houses, His Majesty hath made a full and particular Answer and Offer to both Houses, concerning as well the First Part of their First Article, upon which He hath treated with the Committee, as that upon which they have yet no Power to treat, though His Majesty hath pressed that such Power might be given to them.

"Falkland."

"April 14, 1643.

Concerning the King's Return.

"We received Instructions from both Houses of Parliament the 9th of this present April; and, in Pursuance thereof, we humbly presented a Paper to Your Majesty upon the 10th of this Instant, wherein those Instructions were expressed, and the Desire of both Houses concerning Your Majesty's Return to Your Parliament.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 14, 1643.

Committees desire a further Answer from the King, about the Cinque Ports, &c.

"Your Majesty, in One of Your Papers this Day delivered unto us, mentions that You would gladly receive any Reason from both Houses of Parliament, or their Committee, which may induce Your Majesty to give another Answer than what You have already given, in the Point of the Cinque Ports, Forts, Castles, and Magazines.

"We did, according to our Instructions, humbly desire Your Majesty, that the Cinque Ports, Forts, and Castles, might be put into the Hands of such noble Persons, and Persons of Quality and Trust, to be nominated by Your Majesty, as the Two Houses of Parliament should confide in, and to be kept for Your Majesty's Service, and the Safety of the Kingdom, that no Foreign Forces, nor other Forces raised without Your Majesty's Authority, and Consent of the Two Houses of Parliament, should be admitted into any of them; and the Commanders to use their uttermost Endeavours to suppress all Forces raised without such Authority and Consent, and to seize all Arms and Ammunition provided for any such Forces.

"Unto which we humbly desire Your Majesty's Gracious Assent; and to our other Desires concerning Your Majesty's First Proposition, and the First Proposition of both Houses of Parliament, for that we humbly conceive Your Consent thereunto will be the best Means for such a Peace to be made as will be firm, safe, and lasting, the which is not to be hoped for except there be a Cure for Fears and Jealousies, for which an apparent Remedy is, to disband all Forces, and the same to be so mutually done, as neither Part to have any Force remaining of which the other may be jealous, or in Fear; but if, for other Causes not concerned in these unhappy Differences, Forces are to be retained, as in the Cinque Ports, and in some Forts, Towns, and Castles, for the Defence of the whole Kingdom against Foreign Enemies, that then the same may remain in the Hands of such Persons, with such Powers as both Parts might believe themselves secure, for (fn. 8) if the same Places were considered in relation only to these unnatural Distempers, and to the Settling thereof, the Forces in them were likewise to be disbanded.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelock."

"April 8, 1643.

Paper delivered to the King, upon the Instructions concerning Disbanding.

"By Instructions this Day received from both Houses of Parliament, we humbly conceive that we are to acquaint Your Majesty, that they have taken into their Consideration Your Majesty's Answer to their Reasons concerning the Cessation, wherein there are divers Expressions which will occasion particular Replies, which at this Time they desire to decline; their Wishes and Endeavours being earnestly bent upon the obtaining a speedy Peace; for which Cause, they do not think good to consume any more of that Time allowed for the Treaty in any further Debates upon the Cessation, concerning which they find Your Majesty's Expressions so doubtful, that it cannot be suddenly or easily resolved; and the Remainder of the Time for the whole Treaty being but Seven Days, if the Cessation were presently agreed, it would not yield any considerable Advantage to the Kingdom.

"Wherefore we are required to desire Your Majesty to give a speedy and positive Answer to the First Proposition concerning the Disbanding, that so Your Subjects may not only have a Shadow of Peace in a short Time of Cessation, but the Substance of it in such Manner as may be a perpetual Blessing to them, by freeing the Kingdom from the miserable Effects of War, the Effusion of English Blood, and Desolation of many Parts of the Land.

"A. Northumberland.
J. Holland.
Wm. Armyne.
Wm. Pierrepont.
B. Whitelocke."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 10 ^a, Lunæ.