House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 7 October 1643

DIE Sabbati, 7 die Octobris.

PRAYERS.

Lords present:

The Lord Grey of Warke, Speaker.

Message from the H. C. with an Order to raise 8000 l. for the immediate Supply of the L. General's Army.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Glynn:

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in an Order; videlicet,

"Ordered, That such Persons as shall advance Eight Thousand Pounds, for the present Supply of the Lord General's Army, shall be paid again out of the First Monies that shall come in upon Ordinance of Excise, in the Three First Months."

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to the Order now brought up.

Petition of the Inhabitants of Leighton Buzzard, for an Order, that their Vicar may be paid his accustomed Dues.

Upon reading the Petition of the Inhabitants of Leighton Beaudesert, in the County of Bedford; shewing, "That the Lord Leigh, now in Action with the King against the Parliament, hath a Lease of the Parsonage thereof Impropriate, being worth Six Hundred Pounds per Annum, paying only Seventy-two Pounds per Annum to one Mr. Duport, Prebend of Lyncolne; that the Vicarage of Leighton is not worth above Fifty Pounds per Annum, that Mr. Wm. Rathband, now Vicar, placed there by this House, is an honest Man and diligent Preacher; yet the Generality of the Parish detains from him those small Dues which belong to the Vicarage, whereby he is in Necessity: Therefore it is desired, that an Order be granted, to enjoin the Parishioners to pay the accustomed Dues to the Vicar, and for the making up a competent Maintenance, that such further Addition may be made to the Vicarage, out of the said Parsonage Impropriate, and out of the Tithes of the rest of the Lands of the said Lord Leigh, which are now sequestered to the Use of the Parliament."

Hereupon this House Ordered, That an Order shall be granted, to enjoin the Parishioners to pay the Tithes; and for the Second Part, this House refers it and recommends it to the Consideration of the Committee for the Sequestrations.

French Ambassador conducted to Town by the E. of Denbigh.

The Earl of Denbigh reported to this House, "That, according to their Lordships Order, he waited on the French Ambassador, and brought-him to his Lodging at Somer't House; and for the Respects their Lordships shewed to him, he desired him to return their Lordships Thanks, and to assure their Lordships he hath come with good Affections to the Kingdom."

Bargemen sent for, for refusing to attend him.

His Lordship further reported, "That the Masters of the Barges, and the Watermen, would not obey his Commands;" Hereupon this House Ordered that Mr. Dunseir and the Bargemen shall attend this House on Monday next.

The Earl of Pembrooke acquainted this House, "That he hath received a Paper from the French Ambassador, which he was desired to present to this House:" Which Paper the House commanded (fn. 2) to be read in English:

Paper from the French Ambassador, demanding Mr. Walter Mountague, who was taken in Disguise, in Monsieur De Gressy's Train.

"My Lord Prince of Harcourt, Peer and Great Escuyer of France, Ambassador Extraordinary from the Most Christian King, to the King of Great Brittain, hearing that Mr. Walter de Montagu departed out of Paris since his Excellency did, to come over into England from the Queen, and should have casted himself betwixt the Followers of Monsieur De Gressy, but hath been arrested at Rochester; and, though he was Bearer of Her Majesty's Letters for their Majesties of Great Brittaine, he hath been yet conducted Prisoner in The Tower of London: His Excellency declares to the Honourable House of Parliament, that he did not take Notice of his Person and Disguisement, of which the said Monsieur De Gressy did neither; but, for the Respect and Consideration of Her Majesty's Letters, which make appear that the said Mountague hath the Honour to belong to Her, and She avoweth him, the said Prince demandeth him to the said Honourable House from Her Majesty his Mistress; and intreats them, in his own Name, that he may be put into his own Hands, and with all the Letters he was Bearer of, to shun the Consequences that the just Complaint of such a Detention may produce."

Resolution upon it.

The Sense of this House was, upon reading this Paper, "That this Walter Mountague, being a Renegado, and a Man banished the Kingdom for his Mischief done here, for him to be demanded of Two Houses of Parliament in so high a Manner as this is, by an Ambassador that pretends he comes to endeavour to procure Peace, is a Thing of so high a Nature, that, though the Houses desire to maintain a good Correspondency between this Kingdom and France, yet this Kingdom need not fear any ill Consequences as may follow this Business; but hope that God will bless them, as He hath done hitherto."

Ordered, To communicate this Paper at a Conference with the House of Commons; and the Lord General then to deliver the Sense of this House.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To desire a Conference in the Painted Chamber, touching a Paper received from the French Ambassador.

Message from thence, with Two Ordinances.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Greene, &c.

To desire Concurrence to these Two Ordinances:

1. To secure the Merchant Adventurers Thirty Thousand Pounds, borrowed of them. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

Ordinance for Support of the Merchant Adventurers.

2. An Ordinance for the better Encouragement and Support of the Merchant Adventurers.

Ordered, To be committed to these Lords following:

Any Three, to meet when and where they please.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to the Ordinance for securing the Thirty Thousand Pounds; and concerning the other Ordinance now brought up, their Lordships will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Ordinance for raising Money and Horse within the Line of Communication.

The Lord Viscount Say & Seale reported from the Committee, "That they have considered the Ordinance for raising Money and Horse within the Line of Communication, wherein they have thought fit to make some Alterations."

The Alterations were read; and this House Agreed to the Ordinance with the said Alterations.

Information. that the French Ambassador has many Officers in his Train.

To give a List of his Attendants to the Lord General before he gives him a Pass.

The Lord General acquainted this House, "That it is reported, that the French Ambassador lately come hath brought many Attendants along with him, many whereof are conceived to be Officers and Commanders; and, if they should go to the King with him, it is likely they will not return: And it being likely that, before the Ambassador goes, he will send to his Lordship for his Conduct, he desired to know what he shall do in this Case." Hereupon this House Ordered, That when the Ambassador sends to his Lordship, for his Conduct for himself and his Followers to go to the King, that his Lordship shall desire him to give to his Lordship a List of his Followers as he intends to carry with him.

The Messengers sent to the House of Commons return with this Answer:

Answer from the H. C.

That the House of Commons will give a present Conference, as is desired.

Message from thence, that they may communicate something about the Merchant Adventurers.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Harly and others:

To desire that they may present to their Lordships, at the next Conference, something touching the Merchant Adventurers.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships do agree to receive from them, at the next Conference, what they shall offer to them concerning the Merchant Adventurers.

University of Cambridge Petition;

The Petition of the University of Cambridge was read, and Ordered to be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference, that some Course may be taken for their Relief. (Here enter it.)

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Message to the H. C. that the Lords agree to the Ordinance for raising Money and Horse within the Line of Communication,

and about the Merchant Adventurers, and the Answer to the French Ambassador.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To let them know, that this House agrees to the Ordinance for raising Horse and Money within the Line of Communication, with the Alterations; and to deliver the same to them: Further to acquaint them, that their Lordships are desirous to expedite the Business touching the Ordinance concerning the new incorporating of the Merchant Adventurers, and the Answer to be given to the French Ambassador; concerning these, their Lordships have appointed a Committee of Six Lords, to meet in the Painted Chamber, this Afternoon, at Four of the Clock, at which Time their Lordships desire a proportionable Number of the House of Commons may meet with them, and consider of them; and that their Lordships are Resolved to sit this Afternoon, at Five of the Clock.

University of Cambridge Petition, to free them from Sequestrations.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords and Commons assembled in the High Court of Parliament.

"The humble Petition of the University of Cambridge;

"Humbly shews,

"That, upon Signification of His Majesty's Willingness graciously to accept of what Supplies the Colleges in Cambridge could make to His present Necessities, there was sent to His Majesty, by some of our Body, a Quantity of Plate and Money, out of certain Colleges of this University; the Intent of those which sent it being not at all to foment any War, which was not at that Time begun: Yet so it is, that certain Men, upon Pretence of some Authority committed to them from the Honourable Houses of Parliament, have begun to sequester the Libraries and other Goods of some Masters of Colleges, and the Revenues of their Colleges, so that there will be no Means of Subsistence left to any of the Members of the said Colleges, though never so innocent.

"May it please your Honours, in tender Compassion of the sad Condition of this poor University, to grant unto us a Freedom from this Sequestration; and that the Fact of some few particular Men, which was also by them meant only as an Acknowledgement of their Duty to His Majesty, to whom some of them are obliged as to their Royal Founder, others as His sworn Chaplains, may not redound to the depriving of the Members of the several Colleges of all Possibility to continue in this University.

"And your Petitioners shall ever pray, &c.

"Ba. Exon, Dep. Vice Chanc."

Ordinance for Re-payment of 30,000 l. to the Merchant Adventurers.

"Whereas the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled have, for the Services of the Commonwealth, treated with the Fellowship of Merchants Adventurers of England, for the Loan of Thirty Thousand Pounds, upon the Security of the Income out of the Excise or new Impost: It is hereby, for the Re-payment of the said Sum of Thirty Thousand Pounds, Ordained, by the said Lords and Commons, That Ten Thousand Pounds, with Interest after the Rate of Eight Pounds per Centum, shall be re-paid unto the Treasurer of the said Fellowship of Merchants Adventurers of England for the Time being, residing in London, on the 10th Day of January next ensuing; a Second Ten Thousand Pounds, with like Allowance of Interest, on the 11th Day of April following; and the last Ten Thousand Pounds, with the Remainder of the like Interest, on the 12th Day of July next succeeding, together with Interest after the Rate of Eight per Cent. which said Thirty Thousand Pounds, with Interest, the Commissioners of the Excise are hereby authorized and required to make due Payment of, at the respective Days of Payment before expressed; the Seal of the said Fellowship witnessing the Receipt of all or any Part thereof to be a sufficient Discharge from Time to Time to the said Commissioners: And the said Lords and Commons do hereby Declare, That they will not put any other Assessment upon the said Security of the Excise and new Impost, to precede the said Fellowship in their Receipts; and, if in the Interim the said Income of Excise and new Impost should fall short, or otherwise surcease, the said Lords and Commons will nevertheless provide for the Re-payment of the said Fellowship, according to the true Intent of this Ordinance."

8,000 l. for present Supply of the Lord General's Army.

"Ordered, That such Persons as shall advance Eight Thousand Pounds, for the present Supply of the Lord General's Army, shall be paid again, out of the First Monies that shall come in upon the Ordinance of Excise in the Three First Months."

Thomas, King's Servant, arrested.

Delinquents sent for.

Upon Information, "That Phillip Thomas, a Servant to the King in Ordinary, is arrested, contrary to the Privilege of Parliament, by John Burdett and John Duell, at the Suit of Mr. Tooley; and that Seriven and Leech, Solicitors, have spoke scandalous Words against this House:" Hereupon this House Ordered, That the said Burdctt, Duell, Scriven, and Leech, shall be attached, and brought before this House, to answer their several Offences.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 5^a post meridiem.

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS.

Lord Grey, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

The Messengers return this Answer from the House of Commons, touching the Message in the Morning (fn. 3); and concerning the Ordinance touching the raising of Money and Horse within the Communicating Line, they will send an Answer, by Messengers of their own, to the Alterations therein.

Earl of Essex desires to resign his Commission, on Account of the Discouragements he receives.

Conference to be had with the H. C. that Sir Wm. Waller's Forces may be under the Earl of Essex's Command.

The Lord General desired of this House, and the House of Commons, "Leave to deliver up his Commis sion, and to go beyond the Seas, in regard of the Commission to Sir Wm. Waller, which is inconsistent with his, and in regard of the many Disencouragements he hath received in being General:" Hereupon this House, conceiving this to be a Business which concerns the present Safety of the whole Kingdom, Resolved, To have a Conference with the House of Commons concerning it; and to Declare, That the Sense of this House is, that the Commission to Sir Wm. Waller be delivered up, it being inconsistent with the Commission of both Houses to the Lord General; and according to the [ (fn. 4) Votes of] both Houses, "That all Commissions should be granted by the Lord General, and be under his Command;" this being necessary for the present Affairs and Safety of the Kingdom.

Message to the H. C. about the Merchant Adventurers being new incorporated.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To desire that their Committee concerning the Ordinance touching the Merchant Adventurers may meet the Lords Committees about it on Monday next, at Three of the Clock in the Afternoon; and to let them know, that their Lordships are Resolved to have some of the Merchants to be here that solicit the Business.

Clement Walker demurs to the Judgement of the House against him, for publishing a Book reflecting on Lord Say & Seal.

Next, Mr. Clement Walker was called in; and, having kneeled at the Bar until he was commanded by the Speaker to stand up, the Speaker pronounced the Judgement of this House against him.

And he being asked, "Whether he submitted to the Judgement of this House against him;" he said, " He could not do it, because it was against the Liberty of the Subject."

"Then being demanded, "What he meant in saying, it was against the Liberty of the Subject;" he answered, "Because there was a Judgement given against him without Original Writ or Record of his Crime; and he would demur to the Judgement, and desired to be heard by his Counsel. Secondly, he being a Committee of the House of Commons, and a Commoner of England, they have a double Right in him; and he ought not therefore to be judged by the Lords, without their hearing of him."

Upon this, the House Resolved, To take this into Consideration hereafter.

Message from the H. C. to sit a while.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, and others:

To desire their Lordships would please to sit a while, for they have some Business of Importance to acquaint their Lordships with.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will sit a while, as is desired.

The Answer returned by the Messengers sent to the House of Commons was:

Answer from the H. C.

That the Committee of the House of Commons will meet on Monday next, in the Afternoon, at Three of the Clock.

Message from thence, for Committees to go to the Lord General about Sir William Waller's resigning his Commission.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Glynn and others; which was, "To let their Lordships know, that whereas Sir Wm. Waller hath offered unto their House, to give in his Commission of the 25th of August last; and whereas the House of Commons are of Opinion, that the best Way to discover the Conveniency or Inconveniencies thereof is to appoint a Committee, to go to my Lord General, with Power to consider of and advise with his Excellency what Course is fittest to be for the settling of this Business most for the Safety of the Kingdom, do therefore desire their Lordships to appoint a Committee, to the Intent the House of Commons may appoint a proportionable Number, to go to his Excellency, to advise to the Purposes aforesaid; and to settle it if they can, or otherwise to report it to the House."

Ordered, That this House agrees with the House of Commons, to send a Committee to the Lord General presently, and appoints

The Lord Viscount Say & Seale,
The Lord Wharton, and
The Lord Howard.

Message to them, that the Lords have appointed a Committee; and desiring them to sit till they return.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Rich and Mr. Page:

To let the House of Commons know, that their Lordships have appointed a Committee of Three Lords, to go presently, with a Committee of the House of Commons, to the Lord General; and that this House intends to sit until their Committees return again, and desire that they would do the like.

Answer to the H. C.

The Answer returned to the Messengers of the House of Commons was:

That this House agrees to send a Committee to the Lord General, with a Committee of their House, and have nominated Three Lords.

Mr. Clement Walker, committed to The Tower.

Ordered, That Mr. Clement Walker, for his Answer and Carriage this Day to this House when his Judgement was read to him, shall stand committed to The Tower of London, until the further Pleasure of this House be known; and, because it is now late, the Gentleman Usher attending this House shall take him into his safe Custody for this Night, and carry him to The Tower of London To-morrow Morning.

The Messengers return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

Answer from the H. C.

That they have appointed a proportionable Number of their House, to go with the Committee of Lords, to the Lord General; and they intend to sit until they return again.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords Committees went to the Lord General.

The House was resumed.

Message from thence, to sit a while.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Pye Knight, and others:

To desire their Lordships would please to sit a while.

Message from them, with Votes, for Sir William Waller to be under the Command of the Earl of Essex.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Glynn:

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in Two Votes made by the House of Commons:

"That the Lords and Commons do Declare, That, by virtue of the Commission of the 25th of August last, Sir Wm. Waller is under the Command of the Lord General, and ought to receive Instructions from my Lord General; and is bound to obey him, notwithstanding any Thing contained in his Commission."

And Sir Wm. Waller, being present at this Debate, did declare, "he ever hath been, is, and will be, ready to receive and obey his Excellency's Commands."

Agreed to.

"Whereas, by the Words of Sir Wm. Waller's Commission of the 25th of August last, it is mentioned, That Sir Wm. Waller was to receive his Instructions from both Houses of Parliament: It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons, That Sir Wm. Waller shall, from Time to Time, receive and observe such Instructions as my Lord General shall give him."

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to these Declarations now brought up.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 10 ^a , Monday next.