House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 1 February 1642

Die Martis, videlicet, 1 die Februarii.

Prayers.

Mr. Perd's Evidence against the Duke of Richmond.

The House proceeded in the Business concerning the Duke of Richmond; and Mr. Perd gave in his Evidence upon Oath, "That Mr. Scroope came to him in the Duke's Name, and desired him to forbear to press the Business concerning Mr. Percy and Mr. Jermaine, and persuaded him not to call upon it, affirming that it would be an acceptable Service, and would do him Good; and Mr. Perd said, he did believe he meant that the King and Queen would take Notice of it as an acceptable Service; and he thinks he named the King and Queen, but cannot positively say it; but it was so intimated, as he understood him to mean the King and Queen. But, he said, he returned this Answer, That he would discharge his Conscience; and afterwards he pressed it as formerly he had done, and did call for that Business with as much Earnestness as before.

"That, some Time after this, the Duke of Richmond met him in the Lords House, and came to him, and used these Words in Effect: "Mr. Perd, I took you for my Friend, or you made a Shew you were my Friend; but it is but in Shew, and so henceforth I will be to you." This the Duke spoke with a Countenance expressing a Displeasure and Disdain, as he conceived. And he believeth this Speech related to the Message of Mr. Scroope, for he had never Business or Occasion to go to the Duke, neither did he receive any other Message from him."

The Duke of Richmond, having heard this Evidence, denied that he gave Mr. Scroope any such Directions as Mr. Perd alledgeth, but only in the general for Mr. Percie.

Debate about the Duke of Richmond.

Then the Duke withdrew himself, and the House took the Business into Debate; and it was moved, "That Mr. Scroope might be examined upon Oath, to know what Directions the Duke of Richmond gave him; but it was objected that he ought not to be examined upon Oath, because he might thereby accuse himself."

Hereupon the Judges Opinions were demanded, and the Question which was put to the Judges was written in hæc verba: videlicet,

Question to the Judges about his Servant's being examined.

The Lord Duke of Richmond being accused by the House of Commons, for sending one Mr. Scroope, his Servant, to Mr. Perd, a Member of the House of Commons, to desire him to deal favourably in a Cause there depending, which concerned Mr. Percy and others;

"It is desired that the Judges deliver their Opinions, whether, by the Law of the Land, Mr. Scroope may be examined upon Oath, what Directions were delivered unto him by the Lord Duke at his sending to Mr. Perd."

The Judges withdrew, to consider of this Question, and being returned into the House, the Lord Chief Justice delivered this as the Opinion of them all: videlicet,

Their Opinion.

"We are all of Opinion, That, if this Case did fall before us, in our ordinary Courts of Justice, Mr. Scroope by Law may be examined upon his Oath, upon this Question."

Scroope, the Duke's Servant, examined.

By the Command of the House, Mr. Scroope hereupon was sworn and examined, concerning what Directions the Duke of Richmond gave him when he went to Mr. Perd.

Mr. Scroope answered, "That the Duke directed him to go to Mr. Perd; and to desire him that, in the Business of Mr. Piercy, he would, as it might fall fairly in his Way, rather incline to do good Offices than to press in Rigor; and that thereby he might engage my Lord Duke to render him Thanks, and return him such Favours as might fall in his Way; and said, that he had no Directions to speak of any Favours intended from the King and Queen."

This being done, and the House considering of the Evidence on both Sides; the Question was put, "Whether this House shall join with the House of Commons in their Petition that they have proposed concerning the Duke of Richmond."

The Duke acquitted by Vote.

And it was Resolved, by the major Part, negatively.

These Lords following dissented from this Vote, and, before the putting of the Question, demanded their Right of Protestation; which the House granted.

Protest against it.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Glyn:

Message from the H. C. with the Bill for raising Mariners.

To deliver to their Lordships a Bill, which hath passed the House of Commons, intituled, "An Act for the better raising and levying of Mariners, Sailors, and others, for the present Guarding of the Seas, and necessary Defence of this Realm, and other His Majesty's Dominions."

Petition about L. Kymbolton, &c.

2. He presented a Draught of a Petition which is to be sent to the King, concerning the Lord Kymbolton, and the Five Members of the House of Commons that were accused of High Treason.

About Powder.

3. To deliver to their Lordships some Propositions of the Scotts Commissioners, concerning Powder, &c. (fn. 1) to which the House of Commons have agreed and desires their Lordships to join with them therein.

Bill for pressing Mariners:

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the better raising and levying Mariners, Sailors, and others, for the present Guarding of the Seas, and necessary Defence of this Realm, and other His Majesty's Dominions.

O'Neale to have some Liberty in The Tower.

Upon the Petition of Daniell O'Neale, it is Ordered by this House, That he, being now a Prisoner in The Tower, shall have the same Liberty there that others have that are upon the like Occasions imprisoned in the same Place; and that he shall have such good Usage as befits a Person of his Quality; and lastly, that his Friends and Physicians may have Access unto him.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in post meridiem hujus instantis diei, hora 2^a, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem.

Prayers.

Bill for pressing Mariners.

Hodie 2^a et 3^a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the better raising and levying of Mariners, Sailors, and others, for the present Guarding of the Seas and necessary Defence of this Realm, and other of His Majesty's Dominions.

And, it being put to the Question, it was Resolved to pass as a Law.

Claim of the Cinque Ports for a Saving in this Bill.

Memorandum, The Lord Duke of Richmond, Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports, claimed the Right of the Cinque Ports, that, by the passing of this Bill, they might receive no Prejudice in their Right; and thereupon entered his Dissent, as a Saving in their Behalf.

Next, the Petition brought up from the House of Commons this Morning, which is to be presented to the King, concerning the Lord Kymbolton, and the Five Members of the House of Commons, was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

Petition to the King, concerning Lord Kymbolton, &c.

To the King's most Excellent Majesty.

The humble Petition of the Lords and Commons now assembled in Parliament,

Sheweth,

"That whereas Your Majesty, by a Message sent to both Houses of Parliament, signified an Apprehension of some treasonable Matter to have been committed by the Lord Kymbolton, Mr. Hollis, Mr. Arthur Hasilrigg, Mr. Pym, Mr. Hampden, and Mr. Strode, and thereby declared Your Majesty's Intention to proceed against them in an unquestionable Way; we, the Lords and Commons in this present Parliament assembled, did make our humble Petition to Your Majesty, to beseech Your Majesty to give Directions that your Parliament might be informed, before Tuesday then next ensuing, what Proof there was against them, that accordingly there might be a legal and Parliamentary Proceeding against them, whereby they might be brought to condign Punishment, if guilty; or discharged from so heavy an Accusation, if innocent. And whereas Your Majesty was graciously pleased, in Answer to that Petition, to express Your good Approbation of the Desire of both Houses, for the speedy Proceeding against the Persons in that Petition mentioned; that Your Majesty gave no other Satisfaction to their Desire than this, that Your Majesty held it necessary, lest a new Mistake should breed more Delays, that it should be resolved whether Your Majesty were bound, in respect of Privileges, to proceed against them by Impeachment in Parliament, or to be left at Liberty to prefer an Indictment at the Common Law in the usual Way, or to have Your Choice of either; and we finding still that there is no legal and Parliamentary Proceedings against them, and that they still lie under the Burthen of that high Charge, we think it our Duty once again to beseech Your Majesty to give Directions, that Your Parliament may be informed, before Friday next, what Proofs there is against them, that accordingly they may be called to a legal Trial, it being the undoubted Right and Privilege of Parliament, that no Member of Parliament can be proceeded against without the Consent of Parliament; and this we most humbly conceive ourselves obliged to ask, it being no less agreeable with Justice to have the Innocency of Parties unjustly charged manifested, than to bring the nocent to their just Punishment."

Ordered, That this House joins with the House of Commons to present this Petition to His Majesty.

Scots Proposition for Ammunition for Ulster.

Next, the Scotts Commissioners Proposition, concerning Powder, Match, and Bullet, for Ulster, was read, as followeth:

We understand that Sir John Clatworthy hath Ten Lasts of Powder for the Supply of the North of Ireland, which we conceive will not be a sufficient Proportion for him and us; we desire, therefore, that Twenty Lasts more, with double Weight of Match, may be sent along at this Time in that Ship which carrieth his, or in one of the Ships that goes for the Convoy; and of this Twenty Lasts Five may be of Cannon Powder, with likewise Lead proportionable, and at least a Thousand or Twelve Hundred Three Pound Bullets for Field Pieces.

London, ult. Jan. 1642. St. Scot.

"Ja. Primrose."

Then it was signified, That the House of Commons do desire to join with them, that His Majesty may be moved, that a Warrant be granted to the Master of the Ordnance, for the Delivery of these Particulars for the further Defence and Service of Ulster.

The King to be moved for the desired Supply.

Hereupon it is Ordered by this House, That their Lordships do agree with the House of Commons in this Resolution; and do appoint the Earl of Newporte, Master of the Ordnance, to move His Majesty from both Houses, That He will be pleased to grant Warrants for the aforesaid Particulars, that they may be accordingly transported.

Concerning supplying the King's Stores with Arms, &c.

It was moved, "That, in regard so many Arms, and such Quantities of Powder and Ammunition, have been taken out of the King's Stores, that Consideration may be had of supplying the Stores again;" and it is Ordered, That the Consideration hereof be referred to the Committee for the Defence of the Kingdom.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Mr. Page:

Message to the H. C. to acquaint them that the Lords have passed the Bill for pressing Mariners, &c.

To let them know, that this House hath passed the Bill for the pressing of Mariners; and that their Lordships will join with them, in presenting the Petition to His Majesty, concerning the Lord Kymbolton, and the Five Members of the House of Commons; and to let them know, that this House approves of the Scotts Commissioners Proposition, touching Powder and Bullets; and, to that Purpose, have appointed the Earl of Newport to move the King, to grant Warrants for transporting the same, and also have appointed his Lordship to deliver the aforesaid Petition to the King, from both Houses of Parliament.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Hollis:

Message from the H. C. concerning the Militia.

To desire their Lordships to join with the House of Commons, humbly to petition the King, that the Forts and the Militia of the Kingdom may be put into such Hands as the Houses of Parliament may confide in, and shall be recommended to the King by both Houses of Parliament.

2. To let their Lordships know, that the House of Commons having lately petitioned the King, for putting the Forts and Militia of this Kingdom into such Hands as should be recommended to the King by both Houses; the House of Commons have received an Answer from His Majesty concerning the same; which Answer, the House of Commons conceive, concerns this House, in that it concerns the Forts and Militia of this Kingdom; which Answer they will leave to their Lordships Consideration.

"3. That the House of Commons do acquaint their Lordships with a Vote which they have passed, That whosoever advised His Majesty to give this Answer to the Petition of the House of Commons, for putting the Forts and Militia of the Kingdom into such Hands as should be recommended unto His Majesty by the House of Commons, is of the malignant Party, and an Enemy to the public Peace and Safety of the Kingdom."

The King's Answer was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

The King's Answer about the Militia, Tower, and Forts.

"His Majesty, having seriously considered of the Petition presented to Him from the House of Commons on Wednesday the 26th of January 1641, returns this Answer:

That He was in good Hope, His Gracious Message of the 20th of this Month, to both Houses, would have produced some such Overture, which, by offering what is fit on their Parts to do, and asking what is proper for His Majesty to grant, might beget a mutual Confidence in each other.

Concerning The Tower of London, His Majesty did not expect that, having preferred a Person of a known Fortune and unquestionable Reputation to that Trust, He should be pressed to remove him without any particular Charge objected against him; and therefore returns this Answer, That if, upon due Examination, any Particulars shall be presented to His Majesty, whereby it may appear that His Majesty was mistaken in His Opinion of this Gentleman, and that he is unfit for the Trust committed to him, His Majesty will make no Scruple of discharging him; but otherwise, His Majesty is obliged, in Justice to Himself, to preserve His own Work, lest Favour and good Opinion may prove a Disadvantage and Misfortune to His Servants, without any other Accusation, of which His Majesty doubts not His House of Commons will be so tender (as of a Business wherein His Majesty's Honour is so much concerned), that, if they find no material Exception against this Person, they will rather endeavour to satisfy and reform the Fears of other Men, than (by complying with them) press His Majesty to any Resolution which may seem so much to reflect upon His Honour and Justice.

For the Forts and Castles of the Kingdom, His Majesty is resolved, that they shall always be in such Hands (and only in such) as the Parliament may safely confide in: But the Nomination of any Persons to those Places (being so principal and inseparable a Flower of His Crown), vested in Him, and derived to Him from His Ancestors, by the fundamental Laws of the Kingdom, He will reserve to Himself; in bestowing whereof, as His Majesty will take Care that no corrupt or sinister Courses shall prevail with Him; so He is willing to declare, that He shall not be induced to express that Favour so soon to any Person as to those whose good Demeanor shall be eminent in or to His Parliament; and, if He now hath, or shall at any Time by Mis-information confer such a Trust upon an undeserving Person, He is, and always will be, ready to leave him to the Wisdom and Justice of His Parliament.

For the Militia of the Kingdom (which by the Law is subject to no Command, but of His Majesty, and of Authority lawfully derived from Him), when any particular Course for ordering the same (which His Majesty holds very necessary for the Peace and Security of His Kingdom) shall be considered and digested by His Parliament, and proposed to His Majesty; His Majesty will return such an Answer as shall be agreeable to His Honour and the Safety of His People; His Majesty being resolved only to deny those Things, the granting whereof would alter the fundamental Laws, and endanger the very Foundation, upon which the public Happiness and Welfare of His People is founded and constituted, and would nourish a greater and more destructive Jealousy between the Crown and the Subject than any of those which would seem to be taken away by such a Satisfaction; and His Majesty doth not doubt that His having granted more than ever King hath granted, will ever persuade His House of Commons to ask more than ever Subjects have asked; and, if they shall acquaint His Majesty with the particular Grounds of their Doubts and Fears, He will very willingly apply Remedies proportionable to those Fears; for His Majesty calls God to Witness, that the Preservation of the public Peace, the Law, and the Liberty of the Subject, is, and shall always be, as much His Majesty's Care and Industry, as of His Life or the Lives of His dearest Children.

"And therefore His Majesty doth conjure His House of Commons, by all the Acts of Justice and Favour they have received from Him this Parliament, by their Hopes of future Happiness in His Majesty and in one another, by their Love of Religion, and Peace of this Kingdom (in which that of Ireland cannot be forgotten), that they will not be transported, by Jealousies and Apprehensions of possible Dangers, to put themselves or His Majesty into real and present Inconveniencies; but that they will speedily pursue the Way proposed by His Majesty's former Message, which, in human Reason, is the only Way to compose the Distractions of the Kingdom, and, with God's Blessing, will restore a great Measure of Felicity to King and People."

Votes concerning His Majesty's Answers

This being read, this House taking the same into Consideration, and conceiving it so much concerning the Security of the King and the Safety of the Kingdom to settle the Forts and Militia of this Kingdom, it was Resolved, upon the Question, by this House,

That whosoever advised His Majesty to give this Answer to the House of Commons, for putting the Forts and Militia of the Kingdom into such Hands as should be recommended unto His Majesty by the House of Commons, is of the malignant Party, and an Enemy to the public Peace and Safety of the Kingdom.

Likewise it was Resolved by this House, upon the Question, That this House will join with the House of Commons in an humble Petition to His Majesty, to desire Him that the Forts and the Militia of the Kingdom may be put into such Hands as the Parliament may confide in, and shall be recommended to the King by both Houses of Parliament.

Committee for a Conference, to draw up a new Petition about the Militia, Forts, and Castles.

Hereupon these Lords following were appointed to meet with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to meet To-morrow Morning, in the Painted Chamber, at Nine of the Clock, to draw a Draught of a Petition to be presented to the King, from both Houses, for the settling of the Militia of the Kingdom, and putting the Forts into safe Hands, and to present the said Draught to this House:

The Answer returned to the House of Commons was:

Answer to the H. C.

That this House hath agreed with them in their Vote concerning the ill Advisers of the late Message they received from the King, in Answer to their Petition concerning the Forts and Militia of this Kingdom; and that this House hath resolved to join with the House of Commons, in an humble Petition to the King, to desire Him that the Forts and Militia of this Kingdom may be put into such Hands as the Parliament may confide in, and shall be recommended to the King by both Houses of Parliament. To this Purpose this House hath appointed a Committee of Four Lords, to join with a proportionable Number of the House of Commons, to consider of a Draught of a Petition to be presented to His Majesty, from both Houses.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir John Clatworthy, Knight:

Message from the H. C. about Powder, &c. for Ireland.

To desire their Lordships to join with the House of Commons in an Order concerning Powder and Ammunition to be sent for Ireland; and that His Majesty may be moved to give Warrant for the same to the Master of the Ordnance; which said Order was read, as follows:

The King to be moved, for a Warrant for that Purpose.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That His Majesty be moved, that a Warrant may be granted to the Master of the Ordnance, for issuing to Maurice Thompson and William Benoice, out of the Ship that came from Barwicke, freighted with Arms and Ammunition, whereof Mr. White is Master, Sixty-nine Barrels of Powder, One Hundred Muskets, One Hundred Carabines, with their Furniture, the which Maurice Thompson and William Benoice have contracted to set forth to Sea Five Ships for the Service of Ireland and Defence of the Kingdom; and that the Houses do intend and resolve to deduct so much Money out of their Freight as the Value of the Powder, Muskets, Carabines, and Furniture, shall amount unto, and to make full Satisfaction unto His Majesty for them, according to the King's Rates."

Ordered, That this House joins with the House of Commons in this Order, and appoints the Earl of Newport, Master of the Ordnance, to move the King to give Warrants for the aforesaid Particulars.

Lord Keeper to go to the King; and Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas to be Speaker in his Absence.

The Lord Keeper signified to the House, "That the King hath commanded him to [ (fn. 1) wait on Him at] Windsor speedily;" which the House gave him Leave to do To-morrow, and appointed that the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas shall sit Speaker of this House To-morrow.

A Message was brought, by Mr. Hampden, from the House of Commons:

Message from the H. C. about the Militia and Forts.

To let their Lordships (fn. 3) know, that they receive their Lordships Answer of Concurrence to their Message concerning the Militia (fn. 4) and Forts of the Kingdom with a great Deal of Joy, and hope it will be for the Good and Safety of the King and the whole Kingdom; and that the House of Commons have appointed a Committee, of a proportionable Number of their House, to meet the Lords Committees To-morrow, at Nine a Clock, for framing a Draught of a Petition to the King.

And further, that the House of Commons have appointed their House to sit To-morrow Morning at Nine of the Clock, at which Time they desire that this House would be pleased to sit likewise.

Ordered, That this House shall sit To-morrow Morning, at Nine a Clock.

The Answer returned to the Messengers of the House of Commons was:

Answer.

That this House will sit at Nine a Clock To-morrow Morning, as is desired.

The Lord Keeper reported the Effect of the Conference with the House of Commons last Night, which was:

Conference about the Petition of the Artificers of London reported.

That Mr. Hollis said, He was commanded by the House of Commons to deliver a Petition to their Lordships, which was presented unto the House of Commons in the Name of Thousands of poor People in and about the City of London; and, though this Petition was delivered by a few, yet it was in the Behalf of Multitudes of poor Petitioners, and a high and strong Petition; and, being extraordinary both for the Matter and Manner of it, the House of Commons thought it fit to present it to their Lordships; which was read. (Vide the Petition itself.)

Then Mr. Hollis said, That the Cries of the Poor do pierce the Heavens, and make Impressions in the Hearts of the House of Commons; and they hope it will do the same in their Lordships. Want makes them cry, and Hunger, which breaks through Walls; they have not Bread to put in their Mouths: Relief they must have, which must be by setting them on Work: That cannot be but by settling of Trade, and restoring it: Trade will not be settled till these Fears and Distractions be taken away: Fears will not remove till we see a Change; that the great Affairs of our Kingdom be carried in another Channel; that those evil Counsellors be removed who have discomposed our Frame of this Commonwealth; that we may secure ourselves, (fn. 5) and be in a Posture of Defence; whereas we are now exposed to Dangers, and no Man is sure of any Thing but what he carries about him: Till this be, we cannot expect Trade should run in such a Way as that the Poor may be set on Work.

He said, There were some Things in the Petition extraordinary, which at another Time the Parliament should be tender of; but now, considering the Necessity of a Multitude, the House of Commons thinks it not good to waken a sleepy Lion; for it would pull on the Mischief sooner.

"Next he shewed the Manner of delivering this Petition; for they came to the House of Commons Twice or Thrice: They said, They wanted Bread; they must not starve. The House of Commons told them, They were sensible of their Wants; and their Endeavours had been, and should be, to remove the Causes; and that they were about it, and did hope to give them Satisfaction. This, he said, was but the Beginning of Evils; like a small Cloud, which, if it be not prevented, will soon cover the Sky: These Petitioners do but say what all the rest do think; therefore it is good to prevent it in the Beginning, lest, in the End, it break out, and be past Cure: These Things, like a Flame, goes upward; therefore Wisdom and Will had need concur to quench it. The House of Commons say, they are not in Fault, but have done what they could to take away the Causes of these Distempers; therefore they must declare and protest, for their own Safeties, lest they should be involved, that they are not guilty of these Mischiefs."

This Report being ended, Information was given to the House, that the Lieutenant of The Tower was come to attend this House, according to their Lordships Order.

The Lieutenant being called in, the Petition of the Sheriffs of London and Midd. was read in his Presence; to which he gave this Answer:

Lieutenant of The Tower's Answer to the Sheriffs Petition, concerning the Guards about The Tower.

"That, about Ten or Twelve Days ago, the Sheriffs shewed him an Order of this House (but did not leave a Copy thereof with him), That they should appoint Guards to be set both by Land and Water, that no extraordinary Provisions or Ammunition should be imported or exported out of The Tower; and he conceiving it to be against the Privileges of The Tower, which, by his Oath, he was bound to maintain, and not done out of any Disobedience to their Lordships Order, he writ to Mr. Secretary Nicholas, about desiring him that he would acquaint the King herewith; and he received Order from the King, by Mr. Secretary, that, if there were any Guards set upon him, which intrench upon the Liberties and Privileges of The Tower, that then he should acquaint this House with it; which, he said, he would have done, if there had been Occasion."

Lieutenant of The Tower and the Sheriffs to attend To-morrow.

Hereupon it is Ordered, That the Sheriffs of London and Midd. and the Lieutenant of The Tower, do all of them attend this House To-morrow; and then this Business shall be taken into further Consideration.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Mercurii, videlicet, 2^m diem instantis Februarii, hora 2^a post meridiem, Dominis sic decernentibus.