House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 1 May 1624

DIE Sabbati, videlicet, 1 die Maii,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

George's Petition against the Ld. Treasurer's Servants.

THE Petition of William George was read, touching an Affront and scandalous Words given him by John Barnes and Richard Colbecke, Two of the Lord Treasurer's Servants, when he the said William George was examined touching my Lord Treasurer's Business.

Ordered, The Offenders to be sent for by the Serjeant at Arms presently.

Ld. Treasurer's Answer to the Message of Thursday last.

The Messengers, videlicet, Mr. Serjeant Davis and Mr. Serjeant Finch, who were sent to the Lord Treasurer on Thursday last, reported, That they delivered unto the Lord Treasurer the Addition unto his Lordship's Charge; and that they told his Lordship, that One Point thereof was an Explanation of the former Charge, concerning the Business of Sugars.

That his Lordship received the same, and answered, "Indeed that required an Explanation; for it was utterly mistaken before."

Exclusive Grant to Devon and Cornwall, for curing Fifth, to be canceled.

The Earl of Mountgomery delivered in to the Court, to be canceled, the Letters Patents, dated 5 Augusti, Anno 17° Jacobi, of the sole Power, Privilege, Licence, and Authority, of salting, drying, and packing of Fish, in the Counties of Devon and Cornewall, granted unto Henry Heron, Gentleman, to the Use of William Earl of Tilliberdine, in Scotland.

Confirmation of a Judgement against Heron.

The which Letters Patents were promised to be delivered in unto the Lords Committees of the Bill for the Confirmation of a Judgement given for His Majesty in a Scire facias against Henry Heron, and for Declaration of the Letters Patents therein mentioned to be void.

E. of Tullibardine to be indemnified.

And the House thought it fit, That His Majesty be moved by the said Earl of Mountgomery, to reward the said Earl of Tilliberdine otherwise for his Services; for that the said Grant had been no way beneficial to him. And the said Earl of Mountgomery promised so to do.

Ld. Treasurer's Petition and Answer committed.

The Petition of the Lord Treasurer and his Answer to his Charge, and the Interrogatories unto Four Parts of his Lordship's Charge, which his Lordship exhibited this Day, for his Witnesses to be examined thereon, were read; and committed unto the

To meet when their Lordships please.

And to divide themselves into several Committees, for expediting the Business; and to report to the House what Interrogatories they do reject.

The Tenor of which Petition followeth:

"To the most Honourable Assembly of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in the High House of Parliament.

Ld. Treasurer's Petition.

"The Lord Treasurer, with most humble Thanks, acknowledgeth the Honourable Favour of this House, by their noble Order made in this House on Thursday last, (fn. 1) and doth most humbly take hold of the Liberty thereby granted him (in respect of his Indisposition which yet continueth) most humbly to present to your Lordships herewithall his Answer in Writing, as well to the Charge which he received the Twenty-fourth of April, as to the Additions thereunto, which he received the 29th of the same; together with as many of his Interrogatories for Examination of Witnesses as he could possibly make ready by this Time; which are full and perfect for Four of the Articles of his Charge; most humbly desiring Monday Morning, at the Sitting of the Court, for bringing in the rest; and that your Lordships will pardon the Length of his Answer, the Variety and Multiplicity of the Particulars necessarily requiring it, as well for the readier informing your Lordships Judgements (as for Relief of his own weak Memory, whom as yet you have been pleased to appoint to stand alone, without Counsel, at the Hearing); he doth withall humbly explain his Meaning in his former Petitions, which was not to desire Copies of the Depositions before his Answers were put in, and all Witnesses for him and against him fully examined. But, when that shall be done, he hopes it will stand with the Honour and Justice of that most Honourable House, to allow him Copies of the Depositions on both Sides.

"Middlesex."

His Answer to the Charge.

The Tenor of the Lord Treasurer's Answer to his Charge followeth:

"The humble Answer of the Earl of Midd. Lord Treasurer of England, to that Part of the Charge which was delivered him from the most Honourable Court of the Higher House of Parliament, on Saturday, the Four and Twentieth of April, 1624.

"1. 2. To the First and Second Articles, concerning the Two pretended Bribes, or Sums of Five Hundred Pounds a-piece, alledged to be taken by the Lord Treasurer for the several Causes mentioned in the said Articles, his Answer is, That no such several Sums were ever paid unto him, nor any Money at all, for any the Causes mentioned in the said Charge: out he acknowledgeth that, the Seven and Twentieth of June last past, he by his Servant did receive, at the Hands of Abraham Jacob, one entire Sum of a Thousand Pounds, in Consideration of his the said Lord Treasurer's Interest in Four Two and Thirtieth Parts of the Great farm, which he had formerly reserved unto himself upon settling the new Lease thereof, and for no other Cause, as he hath truly alledged in his Answer to the House of Commons; and for better Satisfaction of this most Honourable House therein, he hath here set down a true and particular Declaration of the State and Carriage of that Business, as followeth.

"First, he is well assured, that as his general Course, in all Bargains of like Nature for the King, hath been to look to his own Duty and the King's Service, as the Husband of His Majesty's Estate, so in this Particular, touching the Nine Thousand Five Hundred Pounds allowed to the Petty Farmers in Recompence of their Losses, he carried himself so carefully and strictly for the King, as he could no way expect so much as Thanks, much less any Gratuity or Reward from them; for though at first they demanded of His Majesty a very great Sum, pretending that the Interruption they complained of was Ten Thousand Pounds Disadvantage unto them in their First Year only, yet, upon good Reasons shewed by the Lord Treasurer on His Majesty's Behalf, they were brought to accept of Nine Thousand Five Hundred Pounds; whereof though they earnestly pressed to have present Satisfaction, yet he over-ruled them to take it in Nine Years and a Half (which was not more worth than Five Thousand Pounds in Hand); and that also to be in full Satisfaction of all their Demands, not for One Year, but for the whole Term of Nine Years and a Half; so as, in that Particular, the Lord Treasurer was so far from doing them Favour, that he thinks they have maliced him ever since for holding them so hard to it then for the King's Service.

"And for the Great Farm, the said Lord Treasurer faith, That the old Farmers, becoming Suitors to renew their Lease, propounded to leave the Silk Farm upon His Majesty's Hands, and withall to have an Abatement of the Rent they then paid for the Great Farm; whereupon the Lord Treasurer, finding how much that Offer tended to His Majesty's Disadvantage, desired Sir Arthur Ingram, by himself and his Friends, to get a better Offer made to the King, which was done accordingly, and thereby His Majesty's Rent was not impaired (as it first was proposed), but increased Four Thousand Pounds per Annum. And the Silk Farm Rent was also made good, which otherwise, to have been let by itself, would not have yielded the old Rent by Five Thousand Pounds or Six Thousand Pounds per Annum, so as the Bargain was better to the King than the old Farmers first Offer, by Nine or Ten Thousand Pounds per Annum, notwithstanding it was thought fit by His Majesty that the old Farmers, coming to the Rate offered by others within One Thousand Pounds per Annum, should have the Preferment of the Bargain: But withall the Lord Treasurer, to gratify those who, by their said Offers, had done the King Service, by advancing the Rent as aforesaid, did, at the Instance of Sir Arthur Ingram, on his and their Behalfs, reserve certain Parts of the said Farm, with no other Intention but to dispose the same amongst them, and then gave Order for the Lease to proceed to the Patentees, who were named in Trust for themselves and all the Partners.

"And afterwards the said Lord Treasurer did dispose of the said Parts reserved to the said Sir Arthur Ingram and others, according to his first Intention. Four of which Parts the Parties which had them did afterwards, at several Times, give up again to the said Lord Treasurer, and left the same at his disposing. Some Months after, Sir Phillipp Cary, who had one of the Lord Treasurer's Parts, and some others placed by the Farmers, upon some Mislike of the Carriages of that Farm, did also relinquish and give up their Parts; upon Occasion whereof the Lord Treasurer being put in (fn. 2) Mind by Sir Arthur Ingram of the said Four Parts, which were returned unto him by those to whom he had formerly disposed them, and being asked what he would do with them, did, upon Jacob's next coming to him, ask him, How the Farmers meant to use him for his Four Two and Thirtieth Parts of the Farm; who answered, That, because his Lordship had formerly signed a Warrant for the King's Security of all the Two and Thirtieth Parts, and said nothing of those Four Parts, they thought his Lordship had waved them; but he would speak with his Partners about it, and then give him a full Answer: Within few Days after, Jacob returned to him, and very freely offered a Thousand Pounds for his Parts, according to the Rate which, he said, they had lately given to Mr. Chancellor for his, which the Lord Treasurer was contented to accept; and within few Days after told Mr. Chancellor what Bargain he had made with the Farmers for his Interest in Four Two and Thirtieth Parts of the Great Farm; videlicet, That he had sold them to the Farmers for a Thousand Pounds.

"This Agreement being thus made with Jacob, and the Thousand Pounds paid by him accordingly, it falls out, by that which is since discovered, that he and his Partners, which shared those Four Parts, agreed together to ease themselves of that Money (which should have been properly borne upon their own private Accounts), by laying the same upon the general Accounts of the Great and Petty Farms (themselves being Farmers in both); and thereupon the Thousand Pounds, as is since discovered, was by them delivered into Two Parts, the one Half entered upon the Books of the Petty Farms, and the other upon the general Account of the Great Farm, as Gratuities to the Lord Treasurer, who little knew of this their unjust Proceeding, both with him and their Partners, until about Christmas last, when he had first Intimation of some such Charge laid upon the Petty Farms, not hearing then that which was done upon the Great Farm's Account; whereupon he presently sent for Jacob, and was much offended with him, that he should suffer any such unjust Thing to be done; who at first denied it, but the next Day confessed it, and said, It was ill done, but he was over-ruled in it; and promised to set all strait again, according to the Truth and Right of the Case; which the Lord Treasurer understands was done accordingly, not by posting the Five Hundred Pounds from the Petty Farm's Account to the Great Farm's but by discharging both those unjust Charges out of both Accounts; the Patentees restoring back the Money which they had taken of the Petty Farmers upon the Lord Treasurer's just Exception thereunto, and also making like Restitution, of their own Accord, to their Partners in the Great Farm, whom they had likewise wronged, whereof the Lord Treasurer heard nothing till of late; so as he hopes the Proofs of this Case will make it evidently appear, that all this Scandal hath fallen upon him by this underhand Working of the Patentees, for their own private Gain, by (fn. 7) wrongful charging their Partners in both Farms, to ease themselves, without the Lord Treasurer's Privity or Knowledge; and though the Patentees, to make their own Tale good, have lately denied that the Lord Treasurer had any part in the Farm, yet it will manifestly appear by Proof, upon the Oaths of Men of good Reckoning, that themselves have acknowledged that his Lordship had referred Parts of that Farm at his disposing.

"For the Hundred Pounds alledged to be received in Lieu of a Tun of Wine offered and refused, the Truth is this: That Abraham Jacob, being with the Lord Treasurer about other Business, told him, That the Farmers of the Petty Farms had or did intend to present him with a Tun of Wine, for a New Year's Gift: The Lord Treasurer then answered him merrily, That other Lord Treasurers before him had been better respected by those Farmers, and that he would have none of their Wine. And shortly after Barnard Hyde brought him a Hundred Pounds, for a New Year's Gift only, and for no other Cause.

"3. To the Third Article, concerning George Heriott's Reckoning and the Sugar Farm, the Lord Treasurer maketh this Answer. In December 1620, a Lease was granted to George Heriott, of the Impose upon Sugars, for Three Years, not as the Rent of Ten Thousand Marks per Annum, as is alledged in the Charge; but at less by a Thousand Pounds per Annum, videlicet, at Five Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Fourpence Rent. Afterwards, the Seventeenth of February 1620, in the Time the Lord Viscount Mandevill was Treasurer, Heriott obtained a Privy Seal of Assignment, whereby he had Power to pay himself, out of the Sugar Farm Rent, by Way of Retainer, a Debt of Thirteen Thousand Eighty-nine Pounds, and Sixteen Shillings, formerly due to him: videlicet, for his Fee Arrear in the Exchequer, One Hundred Eighty-seven Pounds, Ten Shillings; and upon Six Privy Seals, for Jewels formerly bought of him, Twelve Thousand Nine Hundred Two Pounds and Six Shillings; in which Privy Seal of Assignment there was one special Clause, That, if the said Three Years Rent would not suffice to clear the whole Debt, by reason of Defalcations which might fall out upon the Farm, the rest should be made good out of the Exchequer. And afterwards, in May and August 1621, in the Viscount Mandevill's Time, Heritt obtained Two other Privy Seals, for Two other Debts due to him, amounting to One Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-two Pounds and Fifteen Shillings; which, being added to the former Debts by Privy Seal, makes up the great Sum of Fourteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-five Pounds, mentioned in the Lord Treasurer's Charge.

"And where it is alledged, that this whole Sum of Fourteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-five Pounds was paid to Heriot, by the now Lord Treasurer's Order, within the Space of Six and Twenty Days; the Truth is, there was not One Penny paid at all in Money; but Heriott being indebted to His Majesty Seven Thousand Seven Hundred Ninety-nine Pounds, upon Account, for the Rents and Profits of the Sugar Farm, until Christmas 1621, the same was allowed in Discharge of so much of his Debt of Fourteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-five Pounds; videlicet, Five Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence, which he had Power to pay himself by virtue of the said Privy Seal of Assignment; and Two Thousand One Hundred Thirty-two Pounds, Fifteen Shillings, Six-pence Half-penny, which was done by him upon his Account before his Lease of the Sugar Farm began. And whereas he might, by the said Privy Seal of Assignment, have paid himself the other Seven Thousand Sixty and six Pounds, within less than Fifteen Months, the Lord Treasurer did, by Heriott's Consent, transfer the same to be paid out of the Tobacco Farm, videlicet, Four Thousand Pounds at Michaelmas 1622, and the rest at Michaelmas 1623, which was a longer Time, and more advantageous Assignment for the King, than the former was. So, although there were several Orders signed, as if the Money had been paid immediately out of the Exchequer, yet that was done of Necessity, to enable the striking of Tallies for the Tellers Charge and Discharge, as the Form of the Exchequer required, without issuing any Money at all; so that it will appear upon Record, this Charge laid upon the Lord Treasurer is wholly mistaken; and that he was so far from paying so much ready Money as he is charged with, that he paid no ready Money at all, but by Assignment, which he made at longer Days than it was formerly settled in his Predecessor's Time. And thereupon Heriott, having his Debt thus settled and paid to his Contentment, did surrender up his Lease, which he had procured to no other End but to secure the Payment of the Debts owing to him by the King: Afterwards, it is true, That His Majesty granted a new Lease of the Sugar Farm, to the Lord Treasurer's Use, at the Rent of Two Thousand Pounds per Annum; in the granting whereof, His Majesty was truly informed of the State of the same, and particularly made acquainted that the said Farm of Sugars might be improved to Six Thousand Pounds per Annum, though Herriott had it but at Five Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four pence; it being His Majesty's Pleasure, out of His own Grace and Goodness, to grant the same, in Form aforesaid, to the Lord Treasurer, for his many Services, and Considerations best known to Himself.

"For the slow paying of his Rent, it is true, that One of the Three Thousand Pounds was paid Three or Four Days after the Rent-day, and the other Two Half Years Rents were forborn in respect of some private Disbursements of his Lordship's for the King, upon Bills of Exchange to the Commissioners for Ireland, and other Engagements for His Majesty, which his Lordship intended should be discharged and cleared by the said Rent.

"And lastly, the Liberty for transporting Merchants Sugars formerly imported remaineth now in the same Estate and Condition, without any Alteration since the Lord Treasurer's Lease, as it did at any Time before; neither is there any such Restraint or Denial made by him, or any under him, to the Merchants Prejudice, or his own Profit, as is alledged in the Charge.

"4. To the Fourth Article, touching the Composition for Grocery Wares in the City of Bristoll and the Out-Ports, the said Treasurer saith, That Complaint being made unto him, on His Majesty's Behalf, that the said Composition Money being no less due in the Out-Ports than in the Port of London, no certain Course was settled for the receiving of it, or bringing it to Account for His Majesty's Use; so as little or no Benefit thereof came to the King: He thereupon thought fit to send a General Warrant to the Out-Ports, to authorize Abraham Jacob to take Care of that Collection, and receive such Duties of that Nature as had been formerly used to have been paid; to the End the whole Collection thereof might come in upon One Man's Account, with no Intention to raise any new Charge upon the Subject, but only to settle the Collections of the King's Duties in Order. And as soon as the said Lord Treasurer had Notice that the Citizens of Bristoll had formerly yielded to furnish His Majesty's Household with Grocery in Specie, upon Purveyance at the King's coming into those Parts, and thereupon had obtained an Order in the Exchequer, to exempt them from Payment of the Composition; the Lord Treasurer did presently discharge the former Warrant sent thither, and referred the Merchants, who acquainted him with it, to Sir Simon Harvie, One of the Officers of the Greencloth, who certified his Lordship that he had agreed with them to their good Contentment.

"5. To the Fifth Article, concerning the Business of the Court of Wards, the Lord Treasurer makes this humble Answer: That, in December 1618, His Majesty did set forth Instructions for the Ordering of the Court of Wards; which Orders were so set forth by the Procurement and Solicitation of some of the Officers, without the Privity of the Lord Viscount Wallingford, then Master, and of some other of the Counsel of that Court, and near about the Time of his Lordship's leaving the Place; divers of which Articles tended to the Abridgement of the ancient Authority and Profits of the Master's Place, and for the Profit of others of the Officers of the Court.

"Whereupon the Lord Treasurer, being made Master, was an humble Suitor to His Majesty, to restore him to the former Rights of his Place, by altering the said Instructions, in some Points not prejudicial to His Majesty's Profit, nor grievous to His Subjects: Upon which it pleased His Majesty to refer the same to some Privy Counsellors, as is mentioned in the Charge; after which Time, and before any Thing was done, upon the humble Motion of the Lord Treasurer, His Majesty was pleased to direct, That the Master and Officers should first confer and agree (if they could) amongst themselves, and resort to the Referees if they agreed not: Whereupon the Master and all the Officers, upon sundry Meetings and Debatings, agreed amongst themselves upon the new Instructions, and thereunto voluntarily subscribed all their Names. There was no Misinformation used to His Majesty; neither are the Points contained in the new Instructions (fn. 3) disadvantageous to the King or Subject, more than the former, and in some Points (fn. 4) of much Advantage both to the King and Subject.

"Touching the taking Petitions from the Clerk of the Court, and appropriating them to himself and his Secretary, who is charged to take great Rewards for procuring Answers to the same: he saith, That, until the said Instructions, 1618, all Petitions were ever delivered to the Master, which, by the said Instructions of 1618, were, to the great Prejudice of the Subject, and Delay of His Majesty's Service, delivered to the Clerk of the Court, who was to present it at the Sitting of the Council (which could be only in Term Time); whereas, by the former ancient Course, and by the last Instructions, the Petition being delivered to the Master, he only giveth Order for finding and returning an Office, which must also be entered with the Clerk; and the Office being returned, the Grant is made by the Master and Council, at the Council Table. By this Course, the Suitor hath Expedition at all Times, and the Master no Profit at all; and the Secretary neither hath taken nor exacted any Reward of the Subject for procuring Answer, to the Knowledge of the Lord Treasurer.

"Touching the doubling Fees for Continuances of Liveries by the new Institutions, he faith, That ever, until the Instructions of 1618, the Suitor might continue his Livery, either with the Master or Surveyor; and the Master's Fee for such Continuance was ever Ten Shillings. The Instructions of 1618 appropriated the Continuances only to the Surveyor, which was an Incroachment by the Surveyor upon the Master. Now the new Instructions enjoineth the Continuances to be with both; for which the Master taketh no other Fee than Ten Shillings, which was the ancient Fee for Continuances, taken by all Masters before him; and for Tenders the Master, doth now take but Five Shillings, whereas his ancient Fee is Ten Shillings.

"By the Continuance before both Officers, Men are rather enforced to sue out their Liveries, to the Benefit of the King, and Good of such as have Cause to sue against them.

"Touching the having of concealed Wardships, and to that Point that the Master may easily make Wardships concealed by the Course of the new Instructions, The Lord Treasurer faith, That, although he hath the disposing of concealed Wardships, yet the Benefit of them is to the King's own Use; and it is not in his Power to make a concealed Wardship; for, if the Petition should be suppressed, or not answered, yet it is no Concealment by the new Instructions, if any Suit be made for it within a Year after the Death of the Tenant, neither is the Lord Treasurer charged to have done, or so much as to have attempted, any such Act.

"Touching the Stamp, which he is charged to have delivered to his Secretary, he doth humbly acknowledge the same; but withall desireth your Lordships to take into Consideration, that the whole Purpose and Scope of doing thereof was only for the present Dispatch of Suitors, in ordinary Matters of Course; and such Businesses as could not be effected by the Stamp alone, but with the Assistance and Joining with other Officers therewithall, either before or after putting of the Stamp. And the Lord Treasurer was the rather induced to give Way thereunto, because he had understood that the Lord Treasurer Burleigh made Use of the like, and for that Stamps are in Use in other Offices at this present; yet, if the Lord Treasurer had ever conceived or been informed that it been unlawful or unfit, he would not have used it. Also he directly affirmeth, That, by the Use thereof, neither the King's Majesty nor the Subject hath hitherto had any Charge or Prejudice, but much Ease in their Dispatch.

"6. To the Sixth Article, the said Lord Treasurer answereth, That Dallison's unsettling of the Office of the Ordnance fell out Eight or Nine Years since, and the Supply set down by the Lords, in Anno 1617, was Four Years before the Lord Treasurer was in Office; neither did the Commissioner of the Treasury, nor his Predecessor, pursue any Point thereby directed; but it lay wholly neglected, and now only revived against the Lord Treasurer, who never saw it but in this Parliament. And for the Book made up by the Commissioners of the Navy, in Anno 1620, for Supply of the Stores and future upholding of the Office of Ordnance, though, being the last of Three Settlements mentioned in this Article, it might be sufficient to suspend both the former, yet was it so far from being an Establishment to govern the Office by, that all the Officers have, and still do oppose it, and protest against it to this Day; so as, there being only Propositions without Resolutions, and no settled Rule of Establishment and Direction, how should the Lord Treasurer be bound to keep it or why the Breach thereof be made his Fault now, when it was first broken and neglected in his Predecessor's Time, who was then the proper Officer to have put it in Execution, the now Lord Treasurer being but one of the Propounders of it?

"Notwithstanding, he humbly conceives, and hopes to prove clearly, that there hath been no such wilful Negligence, as is alledged; for, though it be true that the Officers of the Ordnance, always opposing that Book of the Commissioners, would never sue out the Two Warrants thereby required, the one of Thirteen Thousand Six Hundred Forty Pounds, Fourteen Shillings, and Two Pence, for Supply of the Stores, and the other of Three Thousand Pounds per Annum for the Ordinary; yet there have been other Privy Seals of the same Nature sued out, whereupon hath been issued to that Office, since that Book of the Commissioners was delivered; videlice, for Supply of the Stores, Eleven Thousand Ninety Six Pounds, Seventeen Shillings, and Six Pence; and upon the Quarter Books of the Ordinary, Seven Thousand One Hundred Ten Pounds, Fourteen Shillings, and Six Pence; which Sums want not much of the Commissioners Proportions; considering that the Ordinary Quarter Books are yet unpaid for a Year and a Quarter. All which doth argue no wilful Negligence in the Payments, howsoever the Officers have disposed of the Monies; nor any great unfurnishing of the Stores; which, if they have less Proportions of some Sorts of Provisions than were set down in the Commissioners Books, yet they have more of other Sorts of Provisions, which have since been thought more useful and more necessary.

"7. Concerning the Second Branch of this Article, for neglecting the Supply of Gunpowder; the Lord Treasurer saith, That the Bargain with Evelyn was made in the Lord Maundevill's Time, who continued in the Office the first Five Months after; in which Time Evelyn served in Powder for the first Three Months; but, getting no Money for it, made a Stop of his Delivery, according to the Liberty of his Contract; so as the same was broken in the Lord Mandevill's Time, and lest wholly in Distraction to the now Lord Treasurer, with a Debt for the Three Months Powder delivered as aforesaid; his Predecessor not paying One Penny upon that Contract in all his Time.

"Neither did that Bargain with Evelyne suffer any small Interruption by the continual Complaints stirred up against him by Mr. Sadler, and new Propositions made by him for settling the Powder-making otherwise; whereby Evelyn's Contract stood under Question; and both the Lord Treasurer and Mr. Chancellor, and the Commissioners of the Navy, several Times troubled to examine the same. The Lord Treasurer, having a Purpose to bring Evelin to Account for the Profit made by him of the Surplusage of the Price of the Powder put to Sale; by this Means, and by reason of other Mishaps of blowing up the Powder-mills by Fire, Evelyn grew discouraged, and the Service neglected, till Sadler's Suggestions were found frivolous, which was near a Year's Interruption of the Service.

"Besides, when the Lord Treasurer entered, he found in the Stores, but One Hundred and Sixteen Lasts, odd Hundreds of Powder; and the Twentieth of March last he left in Store above One Hundred Forty-one Lasts; notwithstanding the great Expences of Powder upon Extraordinaries in the now Lord Treasurer's Time; which also might have been One Hundred Ninety-four Lasts, if the Lord Maundevill had settled and maintained the Contract in his Time, by Addition of his Five Months Provision, and the Three Months which he left the new Lord Treasurer to pay for; whereas the whole Proportion for Gunpowder, assigned by the Commissioners of the Navy's Book to be in Stores, was but One Hundred Forty-three Lasts of Powder; and good Reasons given wherefore there should be no more.

"Lastly, it will appear, by comparing the Quantity of Powder paid for by the now Lord Treasurer with the Times before, that his Lordship had paid for as much, in this short Time of Two Years and a Half, as hath been paid for in the next Seven Years before; so as never, in the King's Time, were the Stores so well furnished with Powder, for Quantity and Goodness, as they are now; and yet never more Want of Money in the Exchequer these Twenty Years, than hath been in the now Lord Treasurer's Time.

"To the last Article of the Charge, about the Bargains for the Lands which were Sir Roger Dallison's, the Lord Treasurer saith, That he hath not made any unlawful Bargain for the Lands of the said Dallison; neither hath he paid for the said Lands with making of Baronets, or freeing Copyholders, or any other Suit to the King, as by that Article is pretended; but hath really paid for the same in Money and Money's-worth, out of his own Estate, to the full Value of the Lands, and more. And, for more full Declaration of the Truth, he saith, That, the said Sir Roger Dallison being indebted to the King in Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, Four Shillings, Ten Pence Halfpenny, whereof Sir Thomas Mounson, his Surety, was found Debtor for Three Thousand One Hundred Pounds; the said Dallison's Lands were extended for Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixtytwo Pounds, Four Shillings, Ten Pence Halfpenny thereof; and the said Sir Thomas Mounson's Lands for the said Three Thousand One Hundred Pounds; and these Lands, so extended, together with the said several Debts, were granted, by His Majesty's Letters Patents, the Twentieth of July, 18° Regis Jacobi, unto Francis Morrice, and other Officers and Creditors of the Ordnance, for Thirteen Thousand Sixtytwo Pounds, owing to them by His Majesty; with a special Command to the Lord Treasurer and Chancellor of the Exchequer, to make out such Writs and Process, for the said Debts, as should be required; and with a Covenant, on the King's Part, that if, by reason of Incumbrances, they could not receive the same in convenient Time, then it should be paid unto them out of the Exchequer.

"These Lands of the said Sir Roger Dallison's were so incumbered by former Charges, that the said Officers and Creditors of the Ordnance could not raise, by the said Extent thereof, near so much as the bare Interest of the said Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-two Pounds, Four Shillings, Ten Pence Halfpenny, Parcel thereof; and therefore did not conceive how it could give Satisfaction unto them for the said Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-two Pounds, due Debt, long forborne; but that they must, of Necessity, have Recourse unto His Majesty again, for their better Satisfaction, according to His Majesty's Covenant, contained in the said Lease made unto them in that Behalf; and yet there was nothing allowed to relieve the poor distressed Lady of the said Sir Roger Dallison, and her Son: Whereupon the now Lord Treasurer, in July 1621, being then but one of His Majesty's Commissioners for His Debts, was made acquainted, by the said Francis Morrice, and others the said Officers and Creditors of the Ordnance, of their Intent and Purpose; and, being willing to do His Majesty the best Service he could therein, after divers Conferences, did come to an Agreement with them for their Interests in the said Extents, and to make them Payment of the said Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds for the same, as followeth: videlicet, One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds before the last Day of November following, 1621; and the rest by Five Hundred Pounds every Six Months, at and after the Annunciation, 1623. After which Agreement made for the Extents, he, not perceiving how he could make any Use thereof, unless he compounded also with such as had the Inheritance and other Estates in the said Dallison's Lands, did deal with some of them for the same; and then came to a second Agreement with the said Francis Morrice, and the rest of the Officers and Creditors of the Ordnance, to convey to them an Estate, which he then had for Nine or Ten Years to come, in the Petty Farms of Currants and Wines, of the yearly Value of One Thousand Four Hundred Pounds, and worth Seven Thousand Pounds, and more, to be sold; which he did grant, and they did accept, in full Satisfaction of the said Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, Ten Shillings Halfpenny, and for their Interest in the said Extents accordingly. Not long afterwards, the Lord Treasurer, being desirous to free himself of any further Trouble or Care, by reason of many other the Incumbrances which were upon the said Lands, did, in or about November 1621, agree with Sir Arthure Ingram, to deliver the same Lands, with other Lands then of him the said Lord Treasurer, in the County of Yorke, unto the said Sir Arthure Ingram, in Exchange for other Lands of his, and to give unto him Nine Thousand Pounds in Money for the compounding and freeing of the Estates and Incumbrances, which were upon the said Lands, late Dallison's, and of a Lease, which he held of one Anthony Meeres, of other Lands, intermixt with the said Dallison's Lands, esteemed of the yearly Value of Four Hundred Pounds per Annum; of which Nine Thousand Pounds the said Lord Treasurer, afterwards, in February and March 1621, by the Consent of the said Sir Arthur Ingram, did pay unto Sir Thomas Munson, Knight, for his Interest in Dallison's Lands, the Sum of Three Thousand Pounds, besides the freeing of his the said Sir Thomas Munson's own Lands of the said other Extent for the said Three Thousand One Hundred Pounds. And all the Residue of the said Nine Thousand Pounds he, the said Lord Treasurer, hath paid and satisfied, as it hath been required by the said Sir Arthur Ingram accordingly; which said several Sums of Seven Thousand and Nine Thousand Pounds, amounting together to Sixteen Thousand Pounds, are more than the said Lease and Lands are worth. And at and from the Time of the said Agreement, for the Exchange so made between the said Lord Treasurer and the said Sir Arthur Ingram, the Lord Treasurer did leave the said whole Business thereof to the said Sir Arthur Ingram; and thereupon the Lady Dallison, and Sir Thomas Dallison her Son, upon a Composition made with them by the said Sir Arthur Ingram, did, in February 1621, make an Assignment of the said Lease to certain Persons, named by the said Sir Arthure Ingram, in Trust for his Use; and sithence the said Agreement, and that Time, the Lord Treasurer had no more to do therein, than as the Duty of the Place requires, and (as hath been advised by His Majesty's Learned Counsel) convenient and fit to be done on His Majesty's Behalf. And therefore, as touching the rest of the said last Charge, That the Lord Treasurer, having agreed with Sir Thomas Dallison and the Officers of the Ordnance, he, to gain indirectly, and by oppressive Means, an Estate which Sir Roger Dallison had passed to Sir Richard Smith and Sir John Davie, setteth on foot an Outlawry of Sir Roger Dallison's, and thereby dispossesseth Sir Richard Smith and Sir John Davie, who had been in Possession by a Trial at Law, using the Power of his Place, and Countenance of the King's Service, to wrest them out of a Lease and Estate of great Value. The Lord Treasurer saith, the same is wholly mistaken; and that the Truth is, that the said Sir Richard Smith having a Conveyance of all the Freehold Lands which were the said Sir Richard Dallison's, in Scotton, as a Mortgage for Payment of One Thousand Three Hundred Pounds; and the said Sir John Davy having an Assignment of the said Lease, as a Mortgage for the Payment of Six Hundred Pounds by Year, for Ten Years, upon a very hard Contract for Money, he the said Sir Richard Smith, long before the said Lord Treasurer had any thing to do with the said Lands or Lease, was dispossessed of the said Freehold Lands, by virtue of the said Extent for the King; and, after such Time as the said Lord Treasurer had so bargained and agreed with the said Sir Arthure Ingram, and had left the said whole Business unto him as aforesaid, it was found that the said Sir Roger Dallison stood outlawed after Judgement, at divers several Mens Suits, whereby the same Lease and Interest was in His Majesty; by means whereof, some Differences grew between the said Sir Richard Smith, Sir John Davie, and the said Sir Arthur Ingram, which the Lord Treasurer used the best Means he could to reconcile; and, to that End, endeavoured to have the same arbitrated and ended by Sir Thomas Savage and Sir Nicholas Fortescue, Knights; but, their Travail and Pains therein taking no Effect, after some Suits in the Prerogative Court, the Exchequer, and Common Pleas, between Sir Richard Smith, Sir John Davie, and Sir Arthur Ingram; in Conclusion, by and with the Consent of all Parties, the said Differences were heard, and ended, by Sir Henry Hobard, Knight and Baronet, Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and by the rest of the Justices of the same Court; by whose Mediation and Order, there is to be paid unto the said Sir Richard Smith and Sir John Davie, in Satisfaction of their Estates and Interests in the said Lands and Lease (over and besides other great Sums of Money, by them formerly received), the Sum of Three Thousand Pounds; and, touching the Charge of the Contract about paying the Eight Thousand Pounds old Arrear, the Lord Treasurer saith, That all the said Eight Thousand Pounds was not old Arrear, as is pretended; for that Three Thousand Eight Hundred Pounds thereof was then newly due, by Quarter Books, for certain Quarters ending at Midsummer then next before, in the said Year of our Lord 1621; and also saith, That his Promise therein was made before he became Lord Treasurer; and that Promise was but to do his Endeavour to get the said Eight Thousand Pounds paid; the same being a just and due Debt, owing to about a Hundred poor Families, whose pressing Necessity would have inforced him, after he came to the Place of Treasurer, to have given them Satisfaction, if he had made no such uncertain Promise before; and the said Debt was paid at Thirteen several Times, by several Portions, as Moneys could best be spared, between March 1621, and May 1623; and the King's Majesty was so far from being prejudiced by the Lord Treasurer's Dealing in this Bargain, that His Majesty was thereby eased from the re-paying of the said Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, Four Shil lings, Ten Pence Farthing, according to the said Covenant.

"And, to make it appear that no Oppression or Power was used in this Purchase, for any private Benefit or otherwise; nor that the same was paid for by making of Baronets and Suits to the King, as is pretended; the Lord Treasurer will undertake, and freely offereth, that the Lands shall be conveyed again to whom this Honourable House shall appoint, upon Re-payment of his said Nine Thousand Pounds, and re-assuring of his said Leases and Interests in the said Petty Farms, with the Re-payment of the Moneys received upon the same; it being also apparent, by this Declaration, that, if any such Suits, Oppressions, or other hard Measure, hath been offered touching the said Lands or Lease, as is alledged in the Charge, the same were no way done by the Lord Treasurer, or by his Privity or Direction, or while the said Lands remained in his Hands, which was not for above Five Months, so as the same can in no Manner concern the Lord Treasurer; neither doth he know of any Thing done therein by any other, but what hath been just and lawful.

"And touching the Baronets, the same nothing at all concerneth this Matter; but was a Grace that the King's Majesty, upon the Suit of a Nobleman (who was assisted by the Lord Treasurer), was pleased to confer upon Sir Thomas Mounson, in regard of his Loss of his Office of Hawks; and the same taking no Effect, His Majesty, upon the said Sir Thomas Mounson's late Petition, was pleased, in Lieu of the Baronets formerly intended him, to grant him another Suit, for the compounding with certain of the Copyholders in Wakefeild, for the Value of Fifty Pounds by the Year, whereof as yet he hath received no Fruit at all."

"The humble Answer of the said Lord Treasurer to the Addition of his Charge, received from the most Honourable Court of the Higher House of Parliament, on Thursday, the Nine and Twentieth of April, 1624.

Lord Treasurer's Answer to the additional Charge against him.

"To that Part that concerns him as he was Master of the Great Wardrobe, the said Lord Treasurer saith, That he held that Office for the Three Years mentioned in the Charge, and that, within that Time, he did receive the ordinary Assignment of Twenty Thousand Pounds per Annum, or thereabouts; wherein, he conceives, he did no ill Service to the King, when he did reduce the vast Charge of that Office to Twenty Thousand Pounds per Annum; and, by Three Years Experience, to shew His Majesty the Means how that Twenty Thousand Pounds might be again reduced to Twelve Thousand Pounds; which, he conceives, is no Argument that he hath brought that Place to any Disorder or Confusion, as in a Generality is objected.

"It is true, that he made no Account for his Time, neither for the Wardrobe, nor for the late Queen's Funeral; neither was there any Cause why he should do so; for that, by His Majesty's Contract with him for the Wardrobe, he was to defray the ordinary Charges thereof for Twenty Thousand Pounds, at his own Hazard; and for the said Funeral, having Warrant by Privy Seals to receive Twenty Thousand Pounds, he received but the Sum of Thirteen Thousand Five Hundred Pounds, and yet saved some Part thereof; besides what he yearly saved upon the ordinary Allowance for the Wardrobe; with all which Savings he, from Time to Time, truly and particularly acquainted His Majesty, as being not willing to gain so much by the same, as he found he did, without His Majesty's Privity and gracious Allowance, who, being truly and rightly informed in all the Particulars, did, upon the said Lord Treasurer's voluntary surrendering of that beneficial Contract for the Wardrobe, for Advancement of His Majesty's Service (having therein an Estate for his Life), grant him a general Release and Pardon, by Indenture under the Great Seal of England, for all Matters concerning the said Office of the Wardrobe and Funeral aforesaid.

"He faith further, That, in the Time of his being in that Office, he paid divers extraordinary Sums, which were not within his Bargain, upon special Warrants and Privy Seals; as Three Thousand Pounds to the Earl of Carlile; about Two Thousand Pounds for new-furnishing Ely House, for the Spanish Ambassador; above One Thousand Pounds for a new rich Barge-cloth; and other extraordinary Disbursements, of about a Thousand Pounds more: For all which (amounting to Seven Thousand Pounds or thereabouts) he never yet received or demanded any Allowance; and, if any Man hath any Thing owing unto him in the Time the said Lord Treasurer was Officer (as he is well assured there are none, except some small Remains upon the Foot of some private Reckoning), the same are no way chargeable upon the King, the said Lord Treasurer being their proper Debtor, and bound by that Indenture to discharge the same; which he hath been ever ready, upon their Demand, to do accordingly; it being acknowledged by the Creditors of the Wardrobe, that they have been better paid and used in his Time than either before or since. And, concerning the Charge of his not duly serving the Lord Chamberlain's Warrants for Supplies; it may well be, some few Parcels, in some Warrants, which could not then be suddenly provided, were upon that Occasion, or by some Fault or Negligence of his Servants trusted in that Business, left unserved; but that neither hath been, is, or shall be, any Loss to the King; for he acknowledgeth it to be just and fit that he should provide and furnish the same at his own Charges; though the Neglect of that little is no great Matter, considering he hath disbursed so much for His Majesty in Extraordinaries as aforesaid, for which he never yet had any Allowance.

"To that Explanation of the former Charge, concerning his not re-paying the Merchants the Impost due to them upon Exportation of Sugars formerly imported, according to His Majesty's Letters Patents of the Fifth of December 1610; the said Lord Treasurer saith, That the Usage in that Particular is such now as hath been ever since the Impost was first laid, without any Alteration by him, or any for him, in his Time. Neither did any Merchant bring his Certificate, and make his Demand for that Allowance, according to the Form prescribed by those Letters Patents, as the Lord Treasurer is informed by those that farm the Impost of him; and therefore, there could be no Denial, when there was no Demand made; and besides, this is so far from being a Matter of Benefit to the Lord Treasurer, that the Farmers of that Impost under him (who should have that Profit, if there (fn. 5) was any) have been, and are, willing to give the Merchants Content in their Desire, if they will petition His Majesty, and sue out a Privy Seal to warrant it; without which, it hath ever been understood it could not be done, in respect of the King's Interest therein, and in regard it never had been allowed heretofore.

"All which the said Lord Treasurer doth aver to be true in all Points; and shall be ready to justify and maintain the same, in such Manner as this most Honourable Court shall award.

"Middlesex."

Bills from H. C.

Message from the House of Commons, by Sir Edwyne Sandes and others: They presented unto the Lords Five Bills.

1^a, An Act for Continuance of a former Statute, made in the Fourth Year of the King's Majesty's Reign of England, etc. intituled, An Act for the true making of Woollen Cloths, and for some Additions and Alterations in and to the same.

2^a, An Act for erecting a Free-school, an Almshouse, and House of Correction, within the County of Lincoln.

3^a, An Act for the Restitution in Blood of Carew Ralegh, Son of Sir Walter Ralegh, Knight, late attainted of High Treason.

4^a, An Act for the Naturalizing of Abigall Little, Wife of Jeoffrey Little, and of William Little, Son of the said Abigall, by the said Jeoffery Little her Husband.

5^a, An Act for the Naturalizing of Peter Verbeake.

Message for Conference on several Bills.

With this Message unto their Lordships: videlicet, That the Commons will be ready to attend the Conference appointed, touching the Two Bills for Limitation of Actions, etc. and Licences of Alienations, etc. appointed to be this Day, at Two, in the Painted Camber.

And that they are ready also to attend a Conference with their Lordships, touching the Bill of Monopolies, either at that Time, or at any other Time which their Lordships shall appoint.

Imposition on Hops by the Lord Treasurer.

They presented also unto their Lordships a Petition, exhibited by divers Merchants (whose Names are thereunto subscribed), containing a Complaint against the Lord Treasurer, for the Imposition on Hops; the which Complaint they humbly referred unto their Lordships; and compared the same with the Imposition laid on the French Wines, even when their Merchandize was on the River of Thames; and affirmed, that this had doubled the Oppression of the Merchants; for that the Archdutchess (out of whose Countries the Hops came) did thereupon lay new Impositions upon the Manufactures of this Land.

And the Commons conceive, that this Imposition on Hops was laid without any other Warrant than the Lord Treasurer's Letter.

Answered:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a speedy Reading of the Bills; that they will meet this Afternoon, to confer on the Bills for Limitation of Actions, and Licences of Alienation, as was formerly appointed.

And their Lordships have appointed Monday next for a Conference (with their former Committees) on the Bill of Monopolies.

And they will take this Petition into their Consideration forthwith.

Merchants Petition against the Imposition on Hops.

The Petition of the Merchants, touching the Imposition on Hops, was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"To the Honourable Assembly of the Commons House of Parliament.

"The humble Petition of sundry Merchants, whose Names are hereunto subscribed.

"They humbly shew, That where, in the late Queen Elizabeth's Reign, continually until the Second Year of the King's Majesty's Reign that now is, Hops were rated, for the Custom thereof, at Twelve Pence for every Hundred Weight; afterwards, in the Time when the Earl of Salisbury was Lord Treasurer, there was imposed on Hops, Six Pence upon every Hundred, which was done by the Consent of the Merchants; which said Custom and Impost hath so continued until October 1622.

"That, in October 1622 aforesaid, at such Time as the Petitioners and others had brought into this Kingdom, into the River of Thames, great Quantity of Hops, the now Lord Treasurer wrote his Letter to the Custom-house, that no Entries of any Hops should be taken till further Order from him; so that your Petitioners Hops lay long in Ships and Lighters, to their great Charges, and Damage of the said Hops; which was done without your Petitioners Knowledge, they nothing mistrusting any such Prohibition; so that, before your Petitioners could be suffered to take up their Goods, they were forced to pay Ten Shillings for every Hundred of Hops, over and above the Custom and Impost aforesaid.

"And divers Strangers, of Flanders, and others, have received up their Goods upon Bonds, by reason of the Archdutchess's Ambassadors; but divers of them have not yet paid their Monies, nor entered to pay, as they themselves have given forth in Speeches, notwithstanding the Petitioners, most of them, were forced to pay in their Monies, without any Favour, to their great and intolerable Loss and Hindrance; and others entered Bonds for the same, which are yet in Force.

"That, by reason of the said Impost, so exacted from the Petitioners, and others, as aforesaid, there was a great Impost laid in Flanders, in the Archdutchess's Countries (from whence the said Hops came), upon Fustians, and other of our native Commodities, which have been to the great Loss of the Petitioners, and to the Hurt and Prejudice of the Common-wealth in general, and of no Benefit to His Majesty but for the present; for that, since this great Imposition, there hath not come hither the Twentieth Part of their Commodities as formerly.

"The Petitioners humbly intreat this Honourable Assembly to take Consideration of the Premises; and to be a Means unto His Majesty, that the said Petitioners may be (fn. 6) paid back again the said Monies so exacted as aforesaid; and that the Impost so taxed upon the Hops (as aforesaid), which is still continued, may be reduced unto the former Rate of Eighteen Pence upon every Hundred Weight of the said Hops, whereby your Petitioners may be enabled the better to continue their Trade, which otherwise they must of Necessity desert; and further, that their Bonds formerly entered into may be re-delivered up unto them, to be canceled."

George's Complaint against the Lord Treasurer's Servants.

John Barnes and Richard Colbecke were brought to the Bar, according to the Order made this Day, upon the Petition of William George.

And, being examined apart, they both denied the Words wherewith they are charged by that Petition.

Only Richard Colbecke confessed, that he told William George, that he was too officious; and that Sir Miles Fleetewood had been often to speak with him.

They were both committed to the Serjeant's Custody, and ordered to be examined by the Committee for the Lord Treasurer's Business appointed this Day; and the Committees to make Report thereof to the House.

Bill of Grace for Wales.

The House was moved, That the Judges may make Report of the Bill of Grace for Wales: Whereupon Mr. Baron Bromley († the eldest Judge then present) reported as followeth: videlicet,

Opinion of the Judges upon it.

"That all the Lords the Judges had considered of the Bill of Grace for Wales, exhibited this Parliament, intituled, An Act of Repeal of One Branch of the Stature, made in the Session of Parliament holden by Prorogation at Westm. the Two-and-twentieth Day of January, in the Four-and-thirtieth Year of the Reign of King Henry the Eighth, intituled, An Act for certain Ordinances in the King's Majesty's Dominion and Principality of Wales.

"And that they are all of Opinion (save One only, and he not directly on the contrary Opinion), That the Jurisdiction of the Council of the Marches, established by the Residue of the said Act of 34° Henrici Octavi, is not prejudiced by this Act, which only repeals this particular Branch, and no more; and that the said Judges do assent, this their Opinion to be recorded in the Journal Book."

Ordered, To be entered accordingly, at the Motion of the Prince his Highness.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Lunæ, videlicet, 3^m diem instantis Maii, hora nona, Dominis sic decernentibus.