House of Lords Journal Volume 15: 4 February 1692

DIE Jovis, 4 Februarii.

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales præsentes fuerunt:

PRAYERS.

Highways repairing, &c. Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for the better repairing and amending the Highways, and for settling the Rates of Carriage of Goods."

Live Cattle, to prevent Butchers from selling, Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An additional Act for preventing Butchers from selling live Cattle."

Hildeyard's Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for the better vesting and settling the Manor of East Horseley, in Surrey, in Trustees, to be sold, for Payment of the Debts of Philip Hildeyard Esquire."

Message from H. C. with a Bill.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Hutchins and others:

Who brought up a Bill, intituled, "An Act for the better Explanation and supplying the Defects of the former Laws, for the Settlement of the Poor;" to which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

Gunpowder near The Tower, Bill.

Hodie 1^a vice lecta est Billa, intituled, "An Act for preventing Dangers that may happen to Their Majesties Tower of London, and the Office for victualling Their Majesties Navy, from Gunpowder kept in Places thereto adjacent."

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That all Persons concerned shall have Notice of this Bill; and may be heard, by their Counsel, on Tuesday next, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon, if they please; at which Time the King's Counsel shall be heard also.

Hanham versus Fidler.

Whereas this Day was appointed for hearing of the Cause wherein Thomas Fidler is Plaintiff, and Elizabeth Hanham Defendant:

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will hear the said Cause, by Counsel, on Monday the Fifteenth Day of this Instant February, at Ten of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Ewelme Hospital versus Town of Andover.

Upon hearing Counsel this Day at the Bar, upon the Petition and Appeal of the Schoolmaster and Thirteen poor Men of Ewelme Hospitall, in Comitat. Oxon, William Drake Esquire and Constance his Wife, and William Goodard, of Woodhay, in Comitat. South'ton, from an Order made the Two and Twentieth Day of September last, on the Behalf of the Bailiff of the Town of Andover, the approved or honest Men and Burgesses of the said Town, James Groves, William Gammon, William Berwicke, William Cooper, Thomas Westcomb, William Dowling, Edward Noyes, and Robert Noyes, Members of the Corporation of Andover; as also upon hearing Counsel upon the Answer of the Bailiff, approved Men, and Burgesses, of the Town of Andover, and of James Groves, William Gammon, William Berwicke, William Cooper, Thomas Westcombe, William Dowling, and Edward Noyes, put in thereunto:

After due Consideration had of what was offered by Counsel upon the said Petition and Answer, it is ORDERED and Adjudged, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said Order made by the Court of Chancery the Two and Twentieth Day of September last, complained of by the Petitioners, shall be, and is hereby, set aside and reversed.

No more Appeals to be received.

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House will receive no more Appeals this Session of Parliament.

Mutiny Bill.

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House shall be put into a Committee, to proceed on the Bill, intituled, "An Act for punishing of Mutineers and Deserters, preventing false Musters, and paying the Army according to the Musters of Effective Men, and for the better paying of Quarters," To-morrow, at Eleven of the Clock in the Forenoon; and nothing to intervene.

Quakers Evidence Bill.

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That this House shall be put into a Committee, upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the High Court of Chancery and Court of Exchequer to accept of the solemn Answer or Evidence of any of the People called Quakers," on Monday next, at Ten of the Clock, next before the Hearing upon the Alnage Bill.

Alnage Bill.

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That on Monday next, at Eleven of the Clock in the Forenoon, this House will hear the Counsel of her Grace the Dutchess of Richmond, as also Their Majesties Counsel, upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for transferring the Collection of the Duties of Alnage to the Custom-house, and for giving a Recompense to the Crown for the same."

E. Rochester versus L. Grey.

It is ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That on Saturday next, before the Duke and Dutchess of Norfolke's Business comes on, the Report shall be made from the Lords Committees for Privileges, concerning the Earl of Rochester and Lord Grey of Warke's Privilege.

Public Accompts for examining &c. Bill.

The Earl of Rochester reported from the Committee, the Reasons drawn by them for disagreeing with the Commons Reasons given at the last Conference, upon the Bill, intituled, "An Act for appointing and enabling Commissioners to examine, take, and state, the Public Accompts of the Kingdom."

The Reasons were read by the Clerk; and, after some Alterations made therein, they were agreed to as followeth:

Lords Reasons for disagreeing with the Commons about it.

"To the First and Second Reasons offered by the Commons, the Lords answer: That, the Commissioners named by the Commons having already made some Progress in the stating the Accompts, the naming of some new ones can be of no Prejudice to the perfecting that Work; the Nature of taking and stating Accompts being such, that new Men being joined with others may be very capable of going on with the Remainder of that Work.

"The Lords do agree, that, in the Act passed in the 19th of King Charles the Second, for taking Accompts, the Commissioners thereby constituted were named by the Commons; and the Lords did agree to it, both because they approved of the Number and Quality of the Persons, and because, they being not Members of the House of Commons, they might always be sent for, at the Pleasure of the Lords, to explain any Matters relating to those Accompts: But the Lords having now had Experience, by the last Act, which constituted no Commissioners but only such as were of the House of Commons, that their Lordships cannot have those Commissioners at any Time before them, to answer such Questions or explain such Doubts as their Lordships may have Occasion to inquire into, or even to intimate such Points as seem to have been omitted, either in the Accompts or the Observations made thereupon, is One very great Reason why the Lords have found it necessary to name such in this Bill, as their Lordships may, from Time to Time, receive Informations from; without which, their Lordships examining into the Accompts will prove defective and dilatory.

"To the Third and Fourth Reasons, their Lordships reply, That they are unwilling to enter into a Dispute with the Commons, what is the proper Work of either House, in relation to the granting Supplies to the Crown, or taking or examining the Accompts thereof, because they would avoid any Controversies of that Kind with the House of Commons, especially at that Time; having by Experience found that such Debates have frequently been attended with ill Consequences to the Public: But, upon this Occasion, their Lordships conceive it is very plain, that, since this Bill provides that the Accompts shall be laid before the Lords, it must be likewise owned, that it is the proper Work of this House to examine them: And by no Means can their Lordships acquiesce in the Reason given by the House of Commons, that, they being the Representatives of all the Commons, no Commoner can be named but by them; because that would, by the same Parity of Reason, deprive their Lordships of the Power of assigning Counsel to any Man impeached by the House of Commons, which in Cases of Misdemeanor they have always done; and by the late Bill for regulating Trials in Cases of Treasons, it was agreed by both Houses that Counsel should be allowed in Cases of Treason, even upon Impeachments, which Counsel must have been assigned by the Lords, and out of Commoners.

"Lastly, The House of Lords cannot allow the Disposition, as well as granting of Money by Act of Parliament, to have been solely in the House of Commons; and much less can their Lordships consent that the Lords have not always had a Right of naming any Persons to be employed in the Public Service by Act of Parliament, and assigning them such Salary for their Pains, out of the Exchequer, as should be agreed on in that Act of Parliament: And for these Reasons their Lordships do insist on all their Amendments to the said Bill."

Message to H. C. for a further Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons by Sir John Hoskins and Sir Robert Legard:

To desire a Conference, upon the Subject-matter of the last Conference, in the Painted Chamber, To-morrow, at Eleven of the Clock in the Forenoon.

Adjourn.

Rob'tus Atkyns, Miles de Balneo, Capitalis Baro de Scaccario, Orator Procerum, declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Veneris, (videlicet,) 5^um diem instantis Februarii, hora decima Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.