House of Lords Journal Volume 10: 3 November 1648

DIE Veneris, 3 die Novembris.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Corbett.

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

The Messengers, videlicet, Dr. Aylett and Mr. Hakewill, from the House of Commons, returned Answer:

That they will take the Ordinance of the Lady Fairfax into speedy Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Letters, &c. from the Commissioners with the King.

The Speaker acquainted the House, "That he had received a Packet from the Commissioners in the Isle of Wight;" which, being opened, were read.

(Here enter them.)

Ordinance to clear Fulwood's Accompts.

A Petition and Ordinance for discharging Jarvis Fullwood, High Collector for the Earl of Manchester's late Army, of the Receipt of One Thousand Four Hundred Thirty-two Pounds, Seven Shillings, and Eleven Pence, were read, and Agreed to; and ordered to be sent to the House of Commons for their Concurrence.

Sir R. Minshul's Ordinance.

The Ordinance for Sir Richard Minshull Knight, was read; and also a Petition from him was read; shewing, "That he is fined for an Estate in Fee, for divers Lands, wherein he is but Tenant for Life, and is doubly rated in other Particulars, and also many Incumbrances not allowed to him, although actually charged upon his Estate; which, having his Evidences plundered from him, he could not then satisfy the said Committee; but now he can."

Hereupon it is Ordered, That he is referred back to the Commissioners at Goldsmith' Hall, to make such Abatement as shall be just.

And whereas this House is informed, "That the Manor of Oundle, in the County of North'ton, with the Appurtenances, is the Inheritance of the Earl of Worcester, and is sequestered as Part of his Estate:"

It is Ordered, That the said Sir Richard Minshull shall not compound for the same as his Estate; but that the Tenants of the said Manor shall pay their Rents accordingly, as is appointed by both Houses of Parliament.

Message to the H. C. to remind them of Votes about the Treaty; and with Fulwood's Ordinance.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Bennett and Mr. Hakewill:

1. To put them in Mind of passing,

1. The Vote of enlarging the Time for the Treaty.

2. The Vote for the Commissioners in the Isle of Wight to attend the Houses.

3. The Answer to the King's Propositions.

4. The Vote concerning the Seven Persons excepted from Pardon.

2. To put them in Mind of sending the Votes agreed upon to the Commissioners.

3. To deliver to them the Ordinance concerning Jarvis Fullwood.

Capt Wade to be released, and satisfy Ball out of his Arrears.

Upon reading the Petition of Captain Lieutenant Will. Wade; shewing, "That he hath served the Parliament Four Years; for which Services, several Sums are due unto him; for Want of which, to pay his Debts, he is arrested for Fifty Pounds, by one Alice Ball:"

It is Ordered, That the said Wade be released from his present Restraint, and have the Protection of this House for his Person, until he receives the Monies owing to him by the State; he first (fn. 1) assigning over to the said Alice Ball so much as her Debt is, out of his Arrears.

Williamson & al. not to be sued for taking Horses.

Upon reading the Petition of Williamson, &c.:

It is Ordered, That the Petitioners shall not be sued at Law, for any of the Horses listed and taken by virtue of the Ordinance of Parliament of the 31th of July, 1647; and that this Action brought by Thomas Shercliffe shall be stayed, until other Provision be made by both Houses of Parliament for Satisfaction.

Message from the H. C. about the Larger Catechism.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Boyce:

To desire their Lordships would (fn. 2) expedite the passing of the Larger Catechism.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take their Message into speedy Consideration, and send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Spencer and Gutteridge.

Ordered, That the Errors in the Writ of Error depending in this House, between Spencer and Gutteridge, shall be argued, by Counsel on both Sides, the 10th of this Instant November.

Letter from the Commissioners with the King, with the following Papers about the Treaty.

"For the Right Honourable the Earl of Manchester, Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore. These present.

"My Lord,

"We have received your Lordship's Dispatch by Sir Peter Killegrew, and pursued your Directions therein given us, as your Lordship will see by the several Papers herewith sent, which will give you a particular Account of our Proceedings. This being all we have to offer at this Time, we remain,

"My Lord,

Newport, the 2d Nov. 1648.

"Your Lordship's

"Humble and faithful Servants,

"A. Northumberland.
Pembrooke & Mount.
Salisbury.

"Middlesex. Wm. Say & Seale."

** The Commissioners Paper, making known the Vote concerning the Time of the Treaty.

"Newport, the 1 of November, 1648.

"We do humbly acquaint Your Majesty with the Declaration of both Houses of Parliament concerning the Time of the Treaty, as followeth:

"Die Sabbati, 21 Octobr. 1648.

"The Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled do declare, That neither the Lord's-days nor the Public Monthly Fast-days, that shall happen within the Forty Days appointed for the Time of the Treaty, shall be accounted any of the Forty Days limited for the Treaty.

"Ex'r,

** The Commissioners Paper, making (fn. 3) known the Votes of the Houses upon the King's Answer to the Propositions of the Church.

"Newport, 1 of Novemb. 1648.

"Having transmitted to both Houses of Parliament Your Majesty's final Answer of the 21th of October last, to the Propositions concerning the Church; we are by them commanded to acquaint Your Majesty with their Votes and Resolutions concerning the same; which are as follow:

"Die Sabbati, 28 of October, 1648.

"Resolved, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled,

"That His Majesty's Answer to that Part of the Proposition that concerns a Bill and Ordinances for abolishing of Bishops, is not satisfactory.

"Die Lunæ, 30th of October, 1648.

"The Houses, upon serious Consideration and Debate had upon that Part of the King's last Answer to the Proposition concerning the taking away and abolishing of Bishops, and settling the Presbyterian Government, have voted, that it is unsatisfactory. And in regard the King in His said Answer hath rather framed a new Proposition than consented to that presented to Him by the Houses, wherein yet He grants some Part of what the Houses desire, that the Houses may manifest the Clearness of their Proceedings in this Treaty, and their earnest Desires of a blessed Peace, they do assign the Particulars wherein (as to that Part of the King's Answer) their main Dissatisfaction resteth:

"1. That the King doth not utterly abolish the Function and Power of Bishops, within the Kingdom of England and Ireland, and Dominion of Wales; but only suspendeth the Exercise of their Function, as to Ordination, for the Term of Three Years, and no more; and the Exercise of their Power as to other Things, for the said Term of Three Years, and until such Time as Himself and the Two Houses of Parliament shall agree of any other Settlement.

"2. That, during the Term of Three Years, the King may make Bishops in the old Manner; and at the End of the Three Years the Exercise of their Function (as to the Point of Ordination) in the old Manner is revived in such of the old Bishops as shall be then living, and in such other new Bishops as the King hath or shall make; it being only expressed, that they shall not ordain without the Counsel and Assistance of Presbyters, which also was practised formerly.

"3. That the Form of Church Government presented to the King by the Houses is, by His Answer, limited only to the Term of Three Years; and at the End thereof, Provision is only made for Ordination in a Way different from what the Houses have proposed, and no certain Way settled for any other Thing concerning Ecclesiastical Discipline and Government, which will be as necessary to be provided as that of Ordination; and this, the Houses do judge, at the End of the Three Years, will expose the Kingdom to new Distractions, which they desire may be prevented in this Peace.

"Die Lunæ, 30 die Octobr. 1648.

"Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament,

"That the King's Answer to that Part of the Proposition concerning the King's giving His Consent to the Ordinances for settling the Lands of the Bishops upon Trustees, for the Use of the Commonwealth, and for appointing the Sale of those Lands, is not satisfactory; and that the Commissioners do press His Majesty to give His full Consent to those Ordinances, as is desired by the Proposition.

"Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament,

"That that Part of the King's Answer to that Part of the Proposition touching the Public Use of the Directory, and the taking away of the Book of Common Prayer, wherein He desires to continue the Use thereof for Himself and His Household until another Public Form of Prayer should be agreed on by His Majesty and His Two Houses, is unsatisfactory.

"Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament,

"That His Majesty's Answer to that Part of the Proposition as concerns His confirming by Act of Parliament the Articles of Christian Religion is not satisfactory; and that the Commissioners do press the King to give His full Consent thereunto.

"Resolved, upon the Question, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament,

"That the Houses, out of their Detestation to that abominable Idolatry used in the Mass, do declare, That they cannot admit of, or consent unto, any such Exemption in any Law, as is desired by His Majesty, for exempting of the Queen and Her Family out of such Act or Acts as are desired by the Proposition to be passed, for a stricter Course to prevent the Hearing or Saying of Mass in the Court, or any other Part of this Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Ireland; and that His Majesty's Answer thereunto is not satisfactory; and that the Commissioners do press His Majesty to give His full Consent to that Part of the Proposition, as is there desired.

"We therefore humbly desire Your Majesty to give Your full Consent to the several Parts of the Proposition mentioned in these Votes and Resolutions of both Houses of Parliament, according to our former Desires, contained in our Paper of the 25th of September, 1648, concerning the Church.

"Ex'r,

** The Commissioners Paper, desiring the King to declare against Ormond's Proceedings.

"Newport, 1 Novembr. 1648.

"The Houses of Parliament, having received a Dispatch out of Ireland, importing the Lord of Ormond's Arrival in that Kingdom, qualified with Power to treat and conclude a Peace with the Rebels there, have judged it contrary to an Act of this present Parliament, and destructive to a speedy Reducement of the Irish; and, according to Instructions which in that Behalf we have received, we do humbly desire Your Majesty's Public Declaration against any such Power, and against the Proceedings of the said Lord Ormond in Ireland. And we do herewith present Your Majesty with an Extract of a Letter from Colonel Jones, Commander in Chief of the Forces in Lemster, directed to the Speaker of the House of Commons, and dated from Dublin, the 18th of October last, and also with Transcripts of Two Letters sent inclosed in the said Letter of Colonel Jones, the one being of the Lord Ormond's Letter dated from Corke the Fourth of October last, and directed unto Sir Richard Blake Knight, Chairman to the Assembly of the Confederate Roman Catholics now at Kilkenny; the other of a Letter from Maynowth, in Ireland, dated the 20th of October.

"Ex'r,

** An Extract of Col. Jones' Letter to Mr. Speaker.

"Honourable Sir,

"Considering Ormond's now arriving here, and the Designs by him driven (appearing in the inclosed), which are intended principally to the Disturbance of your Affairs there; his Lordship meeting with the Irish Commissioners on their Treaty, began on Monday the 16th present; after which (I have it on good Grounds) all their Powers together are to be employed against this your Party in this Province: There are extraordinary and large Taxes laid by the Poll in the Irish Quarters for making up (it is said) the Sum of Sixty Thousand Pounds for the Prince, who is by the Irish expected here with his Fleet, as soon as the Treaty is made up between them and Ormond. In this I am much confirmed, that all here in Design is principally for England.

"Sir,

"Your most humble and faithful Servant,

Dublin, October 18th, 1648.

Mr. Jones.

"Ex'r, Copia vera,

** The Ed. Ormond's Letter.

"After our very hearty Commendations: Being arrived in this Kingdom, qualified with Power to treat and conclude a Peace with the Confederate Roman Catholics, or such as shall be deputed and authorized by them in that Behalf; we have thought fit, by these our Letters, to desire you to make the same known to the Assembly of the said Confederate Romain Catholics now at Kilkenny; as also that, in Pursuance of the Paper of the 13th of May last, delivered to their Commissioners at St. Germaines, we expect to receive from them, by Persons fully authorized to treat and conclude, such Propositions as they shall think fit, at our House at Carricke; whither we intend to remove, for the better Accommodation and more speedy Dispatch of this Affair, as soon as we shall be advertised by you of the Time when we shall expect them there; which we desire may be with all convenient Expedition.

"We remain, at Corke, this 4th of October, 1648.

"Your very loving Friend,

"Ormond.

"To our very loving Friend, Sir Richard Blake Knight, Chairman to the Assembly of the Confederate Roman Catholics now at Kilkenny.

"Ex'r,

** Letter of Intelligence to Col. Jones, from Manouth.

"Honourable,

"I have given a Meeting at Maynouth, whose Relation is, that great Preparations are now in Agitation at Kilkenny, against your Honour and Party; and that Preston and Owen Roe have agreed; and that their Intent is to fall on your Army so soon as it shall march; that Two Thousand Horse and Dragoons (fn. 4) are this next Week to be in Readiness to come into your Honour's Quarters, only to destroy and ruin; and that the Lord of Inchiquin was on Sunday last at Kilkenny, and Propositions are between Ormond and the Irish Council: But he doth absolutely assure me, that they all join against your Honour and Party; whom God, I trust, will ever as hitherto favour and defend. If it be your Honour's Pleasure, he will go to Kilkenny the next Week, and within Ten Days give your Honour an Account of all Things; which I thought fit to acquaint your Honour withal, and will ever rest

Maynouth, 20 Octobr. 1648.

"Your Honour's

"Most humble Servant.

"Ex'r,

** The King's Paper, taking Notice of the Expiration of the Treaty; and desiring other Bishops to come to Him.

"CHARLES R.

"His Majesty, having received your Paper of the First of November, finds thereby that the Treaty ends on Saturday next; and therefore, considering the great Length and Weight of your Papers now delivered, and for that His Majesty hath had no Answer to His own Propositions sent to the Two Houses, His Majesty desires to know whether you have received any Instructions concerning the same, or for any Enlargement of the Time of the Treaty: And the rather, because His Majesty is desirous, before the giving any further Answer concerning the Business of the Church (so far pressed by his Two Houses), that the Primate of Armagh, the Bishop of Exeter, Bishop of Worcester, Bishop of Rochester, Doctor Ferne, and Doctor Morley, may be admitted to Him, with all convenient Speed, that so His Majesty may receive all possible Information for the clearing of His Judgement in a Matter so nearly touching Him as is that of His Conscience.

"Newport, the First of November, 1648.

"Ex'r,

** The Commissioners Paper, pressing for an Answer to their Papers delivered in concerning the Church and Ormond, &c.

"Newport, 1 Novembr. 1648.

"In Answer to Your Majesty's Paper given in this Day, we humbly say, That we have not received any Instructions concerning Your Majesty's Propositions, nor for the Enlargement of the Treaty: Therefore, since the Time of the Treaty is so near expiring, we again humbly desire Your Majesty's Answer to the Papers this Day delivered concerning the Church, and the Transactions now on Foot in Ireland.

"Ex'r,

** The King's First Answer to the Desires of the Houses, of His declaring against Ormond.

"CHARLES R.

"In Answer to your Paper of the First of November concerning Ireland: His Majesty saith, That it is well known in what Place, and in what Condition, He hath continued for many Months before the Beginning of this Treaty: And He doth declare, That, since the First Votes passed for the same, He hath not transacted any Affairs concerning that Kingdom but with you the Commissioners, in relation to the Treaty itself. And His Majesty hath already consented (if the Treaty receive a happy Conclusion) that His Two Houses of Parliament shall have the sole Ordering and Managing of the Militia of Ireland, and the Prosecution of the War there. And whatsoever His Majesty hath consented unto upon those Propositions, He did it clearly, and doth fully resolve to make the same good if this Treaty end in a Peace. But, in the mean Time, His Majesty thinks it not reasonable, that He should be pressed to make any such Public Declaration as by your Paper is desired.

"Newport, the First of November, 1648.

"Ex'r,

** The Commissioners Paper, further insisting upon a more full Answer to that Point of declaring against Ormond's Proceedings.

"Newport, 1 Novembr. 1648.

"Having this Day acquainted Your Majesty with the Resolutions of the Houses of Parliament, upon Information received of the Lord of Ormond's Arrival in Ireland, and Proceedings there, with Power to treat and conclude a Peace with the Rebels, judged by them to be contrary to an Act of this present Parliament, and destructive to the speedy Reducing of that Kingdom, and therefore desiring Your Majesty's Public Declaration against any such his Power and Proceeding; to which Your Majesty's Answer doth give no Satisfaction, saying, "it to be not reasonable You should be pressed to it at this Time;" which we have endeavoured to make otherwise appear unto Your Majesty, in the Debate You have been pleased to have with us upon that Subject: We do again humbly pray Your Majesty to give us to it Your full and satisfactory Answer.

"Ex'r,

** The King's final Answer to the Desires of the Two Houses, of His declaring against Ormond.

"CHARLES R.

"For a final Answer to you as to your Paper of the First of this Month concerning Ireland; His Majesty saith, That, having heard nothing in Answer to His own Propositions, and having answered all the Propositions of His Two Houses, hath very little Encouragement to treat upon a new Proposition, being no Part of the Subject-matter of this Treaty: But, having given you an Answer to the said Paper concerning Ireland, and heard your Debate thereupon; He finds it fit to adhere to His former Answer; for, if this Treaty shall happily conclude, the Desires of His Two Houses will be fully satisfied, by His Concessions already made concerning that Kingdom.

"Newport, the First of November, 1648.

"Ex'r,

** The Commissioners Paper, upon Receipt of the King's Answer to the Houses Desires concerning the Ld. Ormond.

"Newport, 1 Novembr. 1648.

"Having received Your Majesty's Paper of the First of November Instant, as a final Answer to ours given in this Day, containing a Desire of the Houses of Parliament of Your Majesty's Public Declaration against the Power given to the Lord of Ormond to treat and conclude a Peace with the Rebels in Ireland, and his Proceedings thereupon; we shall transmit the same to both Houses of Parliament; and go on in the Treaty, according to our Instructions.

"Ex'r,