House of Lords Journal Volume 10: 14 August 1648

DIE Lunæ, 14 die Augusti.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Prophett.

Domini præsentes fuerunt:

Comes Manchester, Speaker.

Answer from the H. C.

Doctor Heath and Mr. Page return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they agree to the Order for making the Lord La Warr Ranger of Finckly Forrest: (Here enter it.) To all the rest, they will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Message from thence, with Ordinances.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by; who brought up divers Particulars, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence:

1. An Ordinance for the Wardship of the Body and Lands of Ralph Hanson, during his Minority, to Colonel Copley. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to, upon the Question.

2. An Ordinance for the associating Five Counties in North Wales.

3. An Ordinance for Five Thousand Pounds, for Colonel Mitton. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take the Ordinance for the Associating Five Counties in North Wales [ (fn. 1) into Consideration], and will send an Answer by Messengers of their own.

(fn. 2) L. Howard of Cnarl. and E. of Arundel's Sons, Leave to go to France.

Ordered, That a Letter be written to the Lord Admiral, and another Letter to the Committee of Kent, to desire the Lord Howard of Charlton and also the Sons of the Earl of Arrundell may be permitted to pass into France, not withstanding the Embargo.

E. of Holland to be removed into the Custody of the Gent. Usher.

Upon reading the Petition of the Countess of Holland; shewing, "That the Earl of Holland her Husband being a Prisoner in Warwicke Castle, the Remoteness of the Place from London not allowing him the Conveniency of such Physicians and Remedies as are requisite for Preservation of his Health, wherein he begins to suffer much for the Want of such Helps; whereupon, she apprehending that a longer Deprivement of such Assistance may very much prejudice his Health, she humbly prayeth, That Order may be given for his Remove from thence unto some Place nearer London, where he may conveniently be assisted by the Advice of Sir Theodore Mayerne, which is very needful for the maintaining his Health, having been long ordered by his Directions:"

It is Ordered, That the Gentleman Usher attending this House shall take into his Custody the Earl of Holland, a Peer of this Realm, now a Prisoner in the Castle of Warwicke; and that a Letter be sent to the Lord General, to acquaint him with this Order.

(Here enter it.)

E. of Midd. brings the King's Answer about the Treaty:

This Day the Earl of Midd. gave the House an Account of his delivering to the King the Votes of both Houses of Parliament, concerning a Personal Treaty; and presented the King's Answer. (Here enter them.)

Thanks to him.

The Earl of Midd. had Thanks returned him by the House, for his Pains and Care in this Employment.

Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hammond, to attend the King.

A Letter from Colonel Hamon, to the Earl of Midd. was read, being a Desire of the King's that He might have some of His Chaplains to attend Him; in particular, Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hamond.

(Here enter it.)

Resolved, upon the Question, That Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hamond (Two of the King's Chaplains) shall forthwith be sent, from both Houses of Parliament, to wait upon His Majesty.

Message to the H. C. for their Concurrence, and with the King's Answer about a Treaty.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Mr. Page and Doctor Bennett:

1. To deliver the King's Answer to them.

2. To deliver to them the Letter of (fn. 3) Colonel Hamond to the Earl of Midd. with the Vote concerning Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hamond to be sent to the King.

Report of the Conference about Major Rolfe;

The Speaker reported the Effect of the Conference with the House of Commons on Saturday last; which was concerning Major Rolph and Mr. Hallyburton:

"That Part concerning Major Rolph was delivered by Mr. Serjeant Wylde; who, he said, was committed by Warrant of this House: That he was in a languishing Condition in Prison, he being a Person that hath served the Parliament very faithfully. He said, That this Case was of great Consequence, as being of great Prejudice to him, the Parliament, and the Army. Upon the Order, the House of Commons took Notice of several Things observable in the Warrant, both in regard of the Illegality in the Imprisonment in Point of Authority, and also of Process; though he had no Authority to dispute that, in respect of the keeping a fair Correspondence between the Houses: Only he did put in a Salvo, according to the Great Charter, That, if their Lordships should imprison by an absolute Power, it would be destructive to the Liberty of the Subject, and the Breach of the Great Charter. Though it hath been done, yet it hath been disclaimed, as being done without the Consent of the Commons. He said, That these Warrants for the Commitment of Major Rolph were illegal, because he is committed only for being accused of High Treason; which is too general, whereby he cannot make any Answer to his Accusation. The Party should know the Cause, and likewise the Gaoler should know the Offence; else he will be endangered, who is to suffer according to the Offence of the Party: Moreover, the Warrant should run, "to continue in Prison until he be delivered by due Course of Law;" which this Warrant does not. He said, The House of Commons also look upon the small Credit of the Witnesses against him; as Mr. Dowcett, who was committed for a great Offence, and formerly was Servant to the Earl of Holland; and also Mr. Osborne, who had forfeited his Trust, and hath committed a great Offence in the concealing this Business so long Time after he knew it. Upon the whole Matter, the House of Commons desires he may have his Liberty, either by Bail, or some other Way."

and about Halliburton, the Messenger from Scotland.

"The other Part of the Conference, concerning Mr. Hallyburton, was managed by Mr. Scott; who said, That Mr. Hallyburton, by Order of the House of Commons, was to remove presently out of this Town: But their Lordships had ordered the contrary. And the Reasons that induced them to do so were, That the said Mr. Hallyburton was held to be a Person very ill-affected to the Parliament, and, having a Convoy from Major General Lambert to come to London, to deliver a Letter to the Parliament, and one to the King, he had divers Papers and Letters found about him, which he privately concealed. The Letters and Papers were of great Concernment, and tended to invite divers Persons in this Kingdom to join with the Scotts that have come into England in a hostile Manner. The House of Commons look upon this Mr. Hallyburton, who hath a Pretence to be a Public Agent, but as an Emissary to raise Monies, and to hold Correspondency with all that wish ill to England, and well to that Party of Scotland that hath invaded us, and seeks to incense the City against the Parliament. Upon Consideration of the whole Matter, the House of Commons desire their Lordships would concur with them, for sending the said Mr. Hallyburton out of this Town."

Halliburton to attend.

Ordered, That Mr. Hallyburton shall attend this House To-morrow Morning, to shew his Instructions.

Committee to consider of Major Rolfe's Business.

Ordered, That these Lords following shall state the Business concerning Major Rolph, and consider what Answer is fit to be given to the House of Commons:

To meet when they please.

Ordinance to prevent Impositions for Horse being laid on Members, &c.

Ordered, That these Lords following do prepare and draw up an Ordinance, and bring it in To-morrow Morning, "That no Member of Parliament, Assistant to the House of Peers, or Attendant on either House, shall have any Imposition of Horse or Arms set upon them:"

Any Two; to meet this Afternoon, and to bring it in To-morrow Morning.

Ordinance concerning the E. I. Co.

Ordered, That the Committee for the Ordinance concerning the East India Company shall meet Tomorrow in the Afternoon, at Three a Clock; and shall adjourn from Time to Time, as they shall think fit.

Perchard and Rowland.

Ordered, That Mr. Thomas Seymour shall attend the Hearing of the Cause of Perchard.

Ordered, That the King's Answer shall be taken into Consideration To-morrow Morning.

King's Answer to the Votes for a Treaty.

"Carisbrooke, 10 Aug. 1648.

"If the Peace of My Dominions were not much dearer to Me than any particular Interest whatsoever, I had too much Reason to take Notice of the several Votes which passed against Me, and the said Condition I have been in now above these Seven Months: But, since you, My Two Houses of Parliament, have opened (as it seems to Me) a fair Beginning to a happy Peace, I shall heartily apply Myself thereunto; and to that End I will, as clearly and shortly as I may, set you down those Things which I conceive necessary to this blessed Work; so that we together may remove all Impediments that may hinder a happy Conclusion of this Treaty, which with all Chearfulness I embrace.

"And to this wished End yourselves have laid most excellent Grounds; for, what can I reasonably expect more, than to treat, with Honour, Freedom, and Safety, upon such Propositions as you have or shall present unto Me, and such as I shall make to you? But withal remember, that it is the Definition, not Names of Things, which makes them rightly known; and that, without Means to perform, no Proposition can take Effect. And truly, My present Condition is such, that I can no more treat, than a blind Man judge of Colours, or one run a Race who hath both his Feet fast tied together; wherefore my First necessary Demand is,

"That ye would recall all such Votes and Orders by which People are frighted from coming, writing, or speaking freely to Me. Next, That such Men of all Professions, whom I shall send for as of necessary Use to Me in this Treaty, may be admitted to wait upon Me: In a Word, that I may be in the same State of Freedom I was in when I was last at Hampton Court; and indeed less cannot, in any reasonable Measure, make good those Offers which you have made Me by your Votes: For, how can I treat with Honour, so long as People are terrified by Votes and Orders, to come, speak, or write to Me? And am I honourably treated, so long as there is none about Me (except a Barber, who now came with the Commissioners) that ever I named to wait upon Me? or with Freedom, until I may call such unto Me, of whose Services I shall have Use in so great and difficult a Work? And for Safety (I speak not of My Person, having no Apprehension that Way), how can I judge to make a safe well-grounded Peace, until I may know (without Disguise) the true present State of all My Dominions; and particularly of all those whose Interests are necessarily concerned in the Peace of these Kingdoms: Which leads Me naturally to the last necessary Demand I shall make, for the bringing of this Treaty to a happy End; which is,

"That I alone, or you and I jointly, do invite the Scotts to send some Persons, authorized by them, to treat upon such Propositions as they shall make: For, certainly, the public and necessary Interest they have in this great Settlement is so clearly plain to all the World, that I believe nobody will deny the Necessity of their Concurrence in this Treaty, in order to a durable Peace: Wherefore I will only say, that, as I am King of both Nations, so I will yield to none, in either Kingdom, for being truly and zealously affected for the Good and Honour of both; My Resolution being, never to be partial for either, to the Prejudice of the other.

"Now as to the Place (because I conceive it to be rather a circumstantial than real Part of this Treaty, I shall not much insist upon it), I name Newport, in this Isle. Yet the servent Zeal I have that a speedy End be put to these unhappy Distractions, does force Me earnestly to desire you, to consider what a great Loss of Time it will be, to treat so far from the Body of My Two Houses, when every small Debate (of which doubtless there will be many) must be transmitted to Westminster, before it be concluded. And really I think (though to some it may seem a Paradox) that Peoples Minds will be much more apt to settle, seeing Me treat in or near London, than in this Isle, because, so long as I am here, it will never be believed, by many, that I am really so free as before this Treaty begin I expect to be: And so I leave and recommend this Point to your serious Consideration.

"And thus I have not only fully accepted of the Treaty, which you have proposed to Me by your Votes of the 3d of this Month, but also given it all the Furtherance that lies in Me, by demanding the necessary Means for the effectual Performance thereof; all which are so necessarily implied by, though not particularly mentioned in, your Votes, as I can no Ways doubt of your ready Compliance with Me herein.

"I have now no more to say, but to conjure you, by all that is dear to Christians, honest Men, or good Patriots, that ye will make all the Expedition possible to begin this happy Work, by hasting down your Commissioners fully authorized and well instructed; and by enabling Me (as I have shewed you) to treat; praying the God of Peace so to bless Our Endeavours, that all My Dominions may speedily enjoy a safe well-grounded Peace.

"Charles R.

"For the Speaker of the Lords House pro Tempore; to be communicated to the Lords and Commons in the Parliament of England, at Westminster."

Letter from Colonel Hammond, that the King desires Doctor Sheldon and Doctor Hammond, His Chaplains, may attend Him.

"My Lord,

"This Morning the King acquainted, me, that He had forgotten to speak to your Lordship and the other Commissioners with you, concerning the Chaplains; and commanded me to let your Lordship know His Majesty's Desires therein; which is, That some of His Chaplains may be with all convenient Speed sent down to Him, whereof Doctor Shellden and Doctor Hammond to be Two. This I humbly desire your Lordship to communicate to the other Commissioners. My Lord, Could I tell you how sensible I am of the Honour and Favour your Lordship hath done Me, your Lordship would then know, I am not altogether unworthy to be called,

"My Lord,

Carisbrooke Castle, Aug. 11th, 1648.

"Your Lordship's

"Most humble Servant,

"Ro. Hammond.

"For the Right Honourable the Earl of Midd. These."

Order for L. Delawar to be Ranger of Finckley Chace.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, that the Custody and Command of Finckly Chase, in the County of South'ton, being under Sequestration for the Delinquency of Sir John Phillpott Knight (for the better Preservation of the Woods and Game therein, which have been and are daily much wasted and destroyed, by unruly Persons and others, who wrongfully enter upon the same), be granted unto Charles Lord La Warr, it lying near to his Lordship's Lands in the said County, who is desired to take Care thereof accordingly."

Ordinance for Colonel Copley to have the Wardship of Ralph Hansby.

"Whereas Sir Ralph Hansby, late of Tickhill Castle, in the County of Yorke, Knight, seised in Fee of divers Lands in Middlesex and Yorkesheir, and of a Hundred Pounds per Annum, a Rent Charge, in Nottinghamsheir, the 2d of November, 1643, died so seised, Ralph his Son and Heir then and yet within Age; and that, on the 17th of May, 1645, an Office was found in Midd. of all the Premises; and the 13th Day of July, 21° Caroli, for a Fine and under a certain Annual Rent, the Master and Council of the Court of Wards, did demise and grant the Wardship of the Body, and the Lands of the Infant, to Colonel Lyonell Copley. under the Seal of the said Court: Be it therefore hereby Ordered and Ordained, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the said Lands, and every Part thereof, be wholly discharged of and from any Sequestration; and that the said Lyonell Copley, his Executors, Administrators, and Assigns, shall, from Time to Time, during the Minority of the said Ralph, Son and Heir of the said Sir Ralph Hansbye, have, hold, and enjoy, the Custody and Tuition of the Body of the said Ralph, and of all the said Lands, and the whole Benefit thereof, according to the said Grants; the said Lyonell Copley, his Executors, Administrators, and Assigns, doing and performing all such Covenants and Conditions as are in the said respective Grants expressed on his and their Part to be performed: And the said Lords and Commons do hereby further order and ordain, and it is hereby further Ordered and Ordained, That every Person and Persons whatsoever, whether Committees, Sequestrators, Collectors, or others, who had, or have, for all or any of the Time since the Death of the said Sir Ralph Hansby, disposed of, set to Farm, or enjoyed, the said Estate, or any Part thereof, or received all or any of the Rents for the said Estate, or any Part thereof, in the Time aforesaid, shall and are hereby ordered and enjoined, to account for, and to pay unto the said Lyonell Copley, or his Assignee or Assigns, all such Rents and Profits by them or any of them so received, enjoyed, and taken, of or from any of the Premises, from the Time of the Death of the said Sir Ralph Hansby, as if there had been no Sequestration laid upon the said Estate; and the said Lyonell Copley, his Assignee or Assigns, his, their, and every of their Acquittance and Acquittances, shall be their and every of their sufficient Discharge herein; and all Committees, Sequestrators, Collectors, Tenants, and others, who have, since the Death of the said Sir Ralfe Hansby, enjoyed or come to the Possession or Disposition of the Premises, or any Part thereof, are hereby required and enjoined to yield Obedience hereunto: And the said Lords and Commons do hereby also order and declare, That Oliver St. John Esquire, His Majesty's Solicitor General, do prepare a Grant of the Body and Lands of the said Ralph Hansby, as formerly in Cases of that Nature hath been accustomed; and the Commissioners for the Great Seal for the Time being are hereby authorized and desired to pass the said Grant, so prepared, under the Great Seal, accordingly."

Order for 5000 l. for Colonel Mitton.

"Be it Ordered and Ordained, and it is hereby Ordered and Ordained, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, and by the Authority of the same, That the Sum of Five Thousand Pounds be forthwith advanced and paid to Colonel Thomas Mitton, upon Accompt, out of such Delinquents Fines or Estates, not formerly discovered or compounded with, as he shall discover to the Committee at Gouldsmiths Hall, or to the Committees of Sequestrations in the Countries where their Estates lie; out of whose Fines and Estates the said Committees and every of them respectively are hereby ordered to pay the said Sum of Five Thousand Pounds to the said Colonel Thomas Mitton, or his Assigns, accordingly; whose Receipt or Receipts for the same shall be a sufficient Warrant and Discharge to the said Committees, and every of them respectively, and to every such Person and Persons as shall pay the same."

Letter to L. Fairfax, for the E. of Holland to be delivered to the Gent. Usher.

"My Lord,

"The Lords assembled in Parliament, being informed that the Earl of Holland is now Prisoner in Warwick Castle, have ordered, That the Gentleman Usher of this House do take his Lordship into his Custody, that so he may be kept as their Prisoner, he being a Peer of this Realm: And their Lordships have commanded me to desire your Lordship to give Order to the Governor of Warwicke Castle, for the Delivery of him to the Gentleman Usher accordingly. Thus I rest

Westm'r, this 14th of August, 1648.

"Your Excellency's

"Humble Servant."

Narrative of the Commissioners who went to the King with the Votes for a Treaty.

"The E. of Midd Account to the House.

"On Monday, the 7th of August, we addressed ourselves to the King, to deliver the several Votes of both Houses; and, after having read them, we told His Majesty, "That we had but Ten Days, for going, staying, and returning." His Majesty was pleased to ask, "Whether the Ten Days were not to be counted from the Delivery of the Message?" We answered, "No; and that they were to be accounted from Friday, the Day of our setting forth. The King replied, "That he had not then Five Days for to consider of His Answer; which He presumed we expected in Writing." His Majesty was pleased farther to express, "He had none to help Him; no, not so much as a Clerk to transcribe: However, He would really contribute his best Endeavours to a happy Peace." After a short Pause, the King said, "I would have sent to the Parliament;" and desired us to take Notice, "that His long Silence proceeded not out of any stupid Lazinge, or His being insensible of His own or the Kingdom's Condition, but from the Incapacity that was put upon Him." His Majesty further said, "That now that there was a Way opened to a Treaty, which He ever thought was the best Means to a durable Peace, He would chearfully embrace it; and that none should more readily run to it than Himself; and for His Part (as being more concerned than any any One in the Kingdom, I speak it without Vanity, nay, should I say more than all, he hoped 'twould not be thought a hyperbolical Expression), He was assured, whosoever gained, He should be the Loser."

"His Majesty then read the Votes to Himself; and as He was reading them said, "He liked them well, His Desires being included in these Votes; for what could He desire more, than to treat with Honour, Freedom, and Safety, upon the Propositions, and such other Things as either He or the Houses should offer?" His Majesty asked, "Whether the Commissioners were named that were to treat?" We answered, "No." The King said, "In a Treaty, there were Two Things considerable, some of Necessity, and some of Conveniency." After a little Pause, the King said, "He would go to prepare His Answer, that He might not delay a Minute to promote so good a Work." And so dismissed us for that Time.

"On Thursday, August the 10th, we waited on His Majesty, to receive His Answer; and, upon our Entrance, He said, "He was sorry He was limited to so short a Time, and so little Means; but, notwithstanding, He had prepared His Answer." Immediately before the reading thereof, He used these Expressions, "That the last Message He sent was delivered to the Commissioners sealed; and if it had been so presented to the Houses, 'twould have been better for Him; but now He thought it fit to send this open, for He thought He could not be in a worse Condition than He was, being under so close a Restraint, none being suffered to speak a Word without Suspicion."

"His Majesty then produced and read His Answer aloud in the Presence Chamber, being full of Company; and after it was read, His Majesty said, "That He had therein endeavoured to give Satisfaction to His Parliament; there being nothing in it but what He conceived was implied in the Votes of both Houses."

"After a little Pause, His Majesty further said, "That there might be some that would oppose this Treaty, being Gainers by the War, and therefore desired the Continuance of it."

"His Majesty farther said, "That others may think Me revengeful; but, for My Part, I am so far from seeking any, that if a Straw would hurt them, I would not stoop to take it up. God forgive them; for I do." Not long after, when we came to take our Leaves, the King called the Commissioners apart from the Company, and asked, "How they liked His Answer?" We replied, "That we hoped it might be a Means to restore the Peace to the Kingdom."

Brown, Cler. Parl. not to have any Impositions for Horses laid on him.

Ordered, That John Browne Esquire, Clerk of the Parliaments, constantly attending this House, shall have no Imposition in any Kind put upon him, by any Person or Persons whatsoever; neither is he to be molested or troubled, by Warrants or otherwise, for the raising of Horse or Arms for this War, in the County of Midd. unless it be by the special Order and Direction of the House of Peers: And hereof all Committees, and others herein concerned, are to take Notice, upon Sight of this Order, and yield their ready Obedience hereunto, as they will answer the contrary to this House.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 10^a cras.