House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 23 August 1660

Thursday, August 23d, 1660.

Prayers.

Doe's Estate.

A BILL for confirming to Charles Doe the Manor of Hitcham, &c. purchased of John Clarke, was read the First time.

Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Second time, on Saturday next.

Newton's Estate.

Mr. Jones reports Amendments to the Bill for enabling John Newton to sell Lands for Payment of his Debts: Which he read, with the Connection, in his Place; and were afterwards read, by the Clerk, the First and Second time; and, on the Question, agreed unto.

Ordered, That the said Bill be ingrossed.

Adams' Hospital.

Mr. Charlton reports Amendments to the Bill for Mr. Wm. Adams' Hospital, in Newport: Which he first read in his Place; and were afterwards read by the Clerk, the First and Second time; and, on the Question, agreed.

Resolved, That this Bill be ingrossed.

College Leases, &c.

Mr. Pryn reports further Amendments to the Bill for Leases from Colleges, Hospitals, &c.: Which were read the First and Second time; and, on the Question, agreed.

Resolved, That the said Bill, with these and the former Amendments, be ingrossed.

Dyers Petition.

The humble Petition of the Wardens and Commonalty of the Art or Mystery of Dyers, of the City of London, was read.

Ordered, That the said Petition be referred to the Committee for regulating of Woolen Manufactures, and Encouragement of Trade and Navigation; to take the same into their Consideration, and report their Opinion therein to this House.

Private Business.

Resolved, That no private Business be entertained in this House, on any Day, after Half an Hour after Nine of the Clock, till further Order.

College Leases.

A Proviso, tendered to the Bill for Confirmation of Leases made by Masters of Colleges, Governors of Hospitals, &c. was read, to the Effect following; viz.

"Provided always, That no Person or Persons shall be confirmed in any Mastership, Headship, or Fellowship, in any College in either of the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, or in the Colleges of Eaton and Winchester, that is not an ordained Minister, by Bishops, or Presbyters, where, by the Local Statutes of the said respective Colleges, Ordination is required."

Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee that brought in the Bill, to consider of the said Bill and Proviso; and to prepare it, so as it may be ready to be offered in Parchment, when the ingrossed Bill shall be brought in.

Marq. of Winchester.

Ordered, That the Marquis of Winchester's Bill be read the Second time To-morrow Morning.

Settling Ministers in Livings.

Sir Edward Turner, in pursuance of the Order of Yesterday, reports Two several Provisoes, and an enacting Clause, to be added to the Bill for settling Ministers in their Livings: Which were read the First and Second time: The one Proviso, concerning the Restoring of the Rectory of Eweline in the County of Oxon, to Dr. Robert Saunderson, Regius Professor of the University of Oxford; to be enjoyed by him and his Successors, according to a former Grant: The other Proviso, concerning the Restoreing and Confirming of the Rectory of Somersham, in the County of Huntington, to Doctor Anthony Tuckney, the present Regius Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge; to be enjoyed by him and his Successors, according to a former Grant: And the said enacting Clause, concerning the Payment of Fifths to Ministers sequestered and ejected, and not restored by this Act, during their Lives, by Four equal Portions yearly: Which, with some Amendments made at the Table, were, upon the Question, agreed unto.

Resolved, That the Word "Successors," voted Yesterday to be inserted in the First Part of the additional Clause reported from the Committee, and then read, concerning the Arrears of Fifths to sequestered Ministers, be omitted.

Resolved, That the Second Part of the said Clause, concerning Payment of the Fifths to sequestered Ministers for the future, during their Lives, be omitted.

Marq. of Newcastle, &c.

A Message from the Lords, by Doctor Hobart and Mr. Glascock, Masters of Chancery;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords desire the Concurrence of the Commons to these Three Bills, which concern the Marquis of Newcastle, the Earl of Bristoll, and the Earl of Winchelsea.

And therewith the Three Bills were delivered in.

Somerset Dukedom.

Another Message from the Lords, by Mr. Justice Tyrrell and Mr. Baron Turner;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have sent us to you with this Message; to let you know, that the Marquis of Worcester hath acknowledged that the Patent of the Dukedom of Somerset was made to him, upon Conditions on his Part to be performed, which he hath not performed; and that therefore he hath not assumed the Place or Title: And is willing to submit to be surrendered, or otherwise disposed, as the King shall appoint; but that it is in the Hands of his Son, the Lord Herbert, who is a Member of the House of Commons: And therefore to desire, that the Lord Herbert may deliver it up to the Marquis of Worcester.

The Messengers being again called in, Mr. Speaker gave them this Answer;

The House has considered of your Message; and will return an Answer by Messengers of their own.

Ordered, That the Committee to whom the Bill concerning the Marquis of Hertford is referred, be revived; and do sit To-morrow in the Afternoon.

Resolved, That the Message from the Lords, concerning the Patent of the Dukedom of Sommerset, be referred to the same Committee.

Conference with Lords.

Sir Henage Finch reports that the Committee to whom it was referred, had attended the Lords at a Conference Yesterday; and that the Substance of the said Conference was as followeth:

"The Conference was managed by the Lord Chancellor; who applied his Reasons to these Heads:"

"1. To the Persons involved in the Exception for Life and Estate, as Murderers of his late Majesty:

"2. To the Four that are excepted for Life and Estate; viz. Sir Henry Vane, Sir Arthur Hesilrigg, Colonel Lambert, and Colonel Axtell:"

"3. To those who sat in High Courts of Justice upon the Peers."

"He told us, the Lords had weighed the Reasons offered from this House, with a great Desire of Concurrence, and Willingness to retract from their own Reason, if they had found Cause. His Lordship observed, the Reasons urged were taken partly from his Majesty's Declaration, and partly from the Proclamation issued by Advice of both Houses. He took notice, that his Majesty had frequently interposed, and been solicitous for the Dispatch of this Bill; yea so far, that (as he expressed himself) no guilty Person in the Kingdom did more desire the passing of it, than himself: And, for the Declaration at Breda, he said, it was not to be doubted but his Majesty would most religiously observe it. But whereas it had been offered, that his Majesty tendered an absolute Pardon to all Persons; and that the Exception mentioned was in the Nature of a Defeazance thereunto; and that, if a Bill had been tendered, without an Exception, his Majesty had been obliged to pass it: To that, his Lordship answered, True, it was so; and had a Bill been tendered to the King, without any Exception at all, he had been much absolved, by concurring with the Houses, though much against his Judgment: But his Majesty was confident, when he sent that Message, that we would be as forward to do him and the Nation Justice, as He to desire it: And withal, he desired us to take notice, That Declaration came inclosed in a Letter, which reposed an intire Confidence in the Houses of Parliament; and in which, there is this Clause; "If there be a crying Sin for which the Nation may be involved in the Infamy that attended it, We cannot doubt, but that you will be as solicitous to redeem and vindicate the Nation from that Guilt and Infamy, as We can be:" And his Lordship said, His Majesty could never doubt, but the Parliament would have as great Resentment of that Parricide, as the Honour and Justice of the Nation is greatly concerned in it. He told us, His Majesty (who was duly sensible of the great Wound he received in that fatal Day, when the News of it came to the Hague) bore but one Part of the Tragedy; for the whole World was sensible of it: And particularly instanced, that a Woman, at the Hague, hearing of it, fell down dead with Astonishment. His Lordship told us, by the way, He had the Honour to be then employed as the Minister of his publick Affairs into the Court of Spaine; and that the King's Majesty, that now is, gave him in special Command, and as Part of his Instructions in that Negotiation, that, when he treated with the King of Spaine, he should avow and declare, that the Murder of his Father was not looked upon, by him, as the Act of the Parliament or People of England; but of a very wretched, and very little, Company of Miscreants in this Kingdom: And that his Majesty hath the same Opinion still; not doubting but, if no Letter had been sent with the said Declaration, to intimate, by way of Restriction, what Use should be made of his Declaration, yet the Parliament of England would be as forward to except his Father's Murderers from Pardon, as the Thing merits. And he desired us to consider, if God had wrought this Miracle of Restitution within a Month, or Year, or another short Time after the Fact committed, how full of Zeal, how full of Vengeance, had the Spirit of the Nation likely to have been. His Lordship took notice, that his Majesty's Proclamation was pressed, by us, out of a Tenderness we had to the Honour of the Nation, the King, and both Houses of Parliament, which are involved in it; and out of a Desire, that publick Invitations might not prove Snares: To which his Lordship said, That the Lords themselves being involved in the same Honour with us, (Aye, and the King too) hope, the Reasons, which did satisfy their Lordships, and had satisfied his Majesty, would satisfy this House. He did profess, that the Peers never had any other Sense of this Proclamation, than, as a Process, or Summons, under Pain of being excepted from any Pardon of Life or Estate, if they came not in. He said, it was the Sense of the King too: And it was not credible any Man could imagine, that the King would ever have joined with the Houses in such a Proclamation, unless he had been confident the Houses would have meant so likewise. His Lordship pressed further, that, let the World judge of this Proclamation, they cannot but believe it was the Sense of this House too; for it could not be imagined, that, if Lisle, Say, Barkstead, Scott, who were all inserted into the Proclamation, had come in, they should have had the Benefit of their Lives. It is true, (his Lordship observed) the Exception of these Men, by our Votes, was before the publishing of the Proclamation: But he desires Pardon, if That seems not, to the Peers, of any great Weight; for, whatsoever our Votes were, the Snare was the same upon such of the Persons concerned, who took notice of our Votes, not of the Proclamation; as Scott pleads, he heard of the Proclamation, not of the Votes. He pressed us duly to consider the Honour and Justice of the Nation; and, what a Reproach it would be, if such Offenders should escape Justice, after such a Crime. He put us in mind of some Circumstances of Aggravation: First, A Libel is lately spread abroad, that justifies the Murder of the King, with a bare Face; yea, justifies it, as necessary; and That on such wicked Grounds and Arguments, as, in the Logick of it, extends to the Person of our Sacred King that now is, should he fall into their Hands. He told us, one of the Persons we contend for, lurks still; and that a Serjeant at Arms being sent to apprehend him, he rescued himself; yea, the Sheriff of that County being required to give Assistance therein, he refused. For the Expedient offered; the Lords look upon it as That which tends to the making of these Mens Conditions better than now it is; an Expedient, to put off the Discourse, and to make the Reasons their Lordships had given, of less Weight hereafter than now.

To the other Part, wherein they do adhere, as to the excepting for Life, Vane, Lambert, Hasilrigg, and Axtell, his Lordship said, he did not believe that we of this House looked on these Persons as innocent Men; or, as Men so happy as not to have any Crime laid to their Charge. He thinks, that had we that good Opinion of them, we should not ourselves have excepted them for future Pains and Penalties. He took notice to us, that the King's Speech to the House of Lords, when they had passed this Act of Indemnity, as far as they could, and included all these Men, his Father's Murderers, in that fatal Exception; gave them Thanks for their Justice on the immediate Murderers of his Father; and that, in that Speech, there was a subsequent Clause, which, if any Persons be dangerous to the State, recommended it to the Lords to have a Care of them also. Now, for one of them, that is Axtell, the Ground of excepting him was this; they had received Information from Ireland, (where he is best known) which was first presented to the Council, and by them to their Lordships, that in the Year 1748, while the Murther was acting, and carrying on, he pressed the Soldiers, with Violence, to cry and clamour for Justice; and when the Violence had gone so far, that the bloody Sentence was pronounced, he urged them to cry out "Execution." "Execution." For Lambert; his Lordship intimated, that we could not but take notice, how near he was to give a Turn to all the present Settlement we enjoy. For Hesilrigg, and Vane; his Lordship observed, that they were Persons, whom the secluded Members, after their Restitution, and when they were preparing the Way for the great and good Work, which is now effected, looked upon as fit to be secured and confined: That, after the King was come in, these Gentlemen, notwithstanding the Censure on them by the secluded Members, and the blessed End of the long Parliament, returned to Town; never applying themselves to the King, but lurked up and down, without giving any Account of themselves: And his Lordship added, that they look on them as Persons of a mischievous Activity: And therefore, their Lordships desire to leave them to the Mercy of the King; with this further Intimation, that they would be ready to join with this House in a Petition to the King, that Mercy might be shewed them; and that his Severity might not extend to their Lives; And he did not doubt, but the Intercession of the Houses would be effectual for That. For the last Four, who sat in the High Courts of Justice; his Lordship observed, that we, of the House of Commons, had departed very much from our own Passion and Provocation, in urging it as a Reason why we could not agree, because we could not mingle the Expiation of the Blood of Peers with the Expiation of the Blood of the King: But That, he said, was not the Motive, but Justice itself upon so high a Breach of the Law: And offered to Consideration, whether it would not amount to justify those Courts, if some Severity were not used: But that was not much pressed, nor long insisted on."

"When his Lordship had made an End, some worthy Gentlemen, that attended the Conference, offered something of Reply; and I may do them some Wrong in repeating it: But they are here, and can do Right to themselves. It was observed, that this Proclamation was but in the Nature of a Process: To which it was said; then at least they should have been heard, before they were excepted; which they were not."

"Secondly, In the summoning Part of the Proclamation, there is not one Word relating to a Trial; but the Parliament were busy in proceeding upon the Act of Oblivion; and issued the Proclamation, that they might know in what Rank to place these Men: And, admitting that this Proclamation, as to the holding forth of Benefit to those that came in, amounts at highest to an Implication; yet, being an Implication, on which Men have put their Lives, it was dishonourable (as a worthy Member enforced it) to retract the Benefit held forth by the Proclamation. It was likewise observed, by the same worthy Member, that to except them as to a Trial, signifies nothing; for they that do not come in are however excepted as to a Trial. To which his Lordship answered, It is true, that in the Consequence of it, and as Things now stand, it is so: Those that come not in will have the Benefit of a Trial, if they be taken, as well as those that do come in: But, at the time of the Proclamation, it might have been expected to be otherwise; and that those who did not render themselves, should have been ipso facto attainted, and executed whensoever found."

"His Lordship instanced the Example of Scott, who professed, for himself, that he rendered, on the Account of the Proclamation, though his Render will not serve his Turn: For that Render, which will save his Life, must be a Render to the Speaker or Sheriff; to which he cannot pretend. But, his Lordship added, that if That be the Meaning of the Proclamation; to extend Benefit of Life to all that rendered themselves; the Equity is the same, as to him: For, if a Man hear of the Proclamation, and that he should have the Benefit of it, if he rendered himself to the Speaker or Sheriff; and hastens to do it; but, being not able to do it within the Time, renders himself to a publick Minister; it would be hard to make him incapable of the Benefit intended by the Proclamation. Therefore his Lordship observed, those that rendered themselves must not necessarily have the Benefit of their Lives.-It was then urged, that their Lordships had excepted Persons that are dead; Constable, Maliverer, Danvers, and others; and that the excepting of them out of the Act of Oblivion signifies nothing: But the Place where the Commons had put them, was, that their Estates should be subject to future Penalties: A bare Exception subjects not their Estates to future Penalties; but, when the Act passes, the Heir and Executor is discharged, though the Ancestor be excepted. To which his Lordship replied, they knew the Exception of itself operated nothing; but, they supposed and believed, the Persons excepted by this Act would (as well as Bradshaw and Cromwell) be attainted; for their Guilt was equal, and they might deserve alike.-For the Four Persons; it was observed, that to except Vane, and the rest, so as to involve them in the Danger of Life and Estate, and in the mean time to petition for their Pardon, was repugnant in itself. To which his Lordship made no Reply, other than that still they were at the King's Mercy, which way soever the Proceedings passed.

The House taking notice by the Expressions of the Lord Chancellor, at a Conference with the Lords Yesterday, that when his Lordship was employed as a publick Minister from the King's Majesty that now is, to the Court of Spaine, he did receive from his Majesty a special Command, (as Part of his Instructions) upon his Treaty with the King of Spaine, in that Negotiation, to avow and declare, that the horrid Murder of his Royal Father was not the Act of the Parliament or People of England, but the Act of a very wretched, and very little, Company of Miscreants in this Kingdom;

Ordered, That the Members of this House, who are of his Majesty's Privy Council, as also Mr. Pierrepont, Sir Edward Turner, and Sir Henage Finch, do present to his Majesty the humble and thankful Sense this House hath of his Majesty's Justice and Favour, in making this just Defence for the Parliament and People of England.

Resolved, That another free Conference be desired with the Lords, upon the Matter of the last free Conference.

Ordered, That the Committee of this House, who managed the former Conference, do, upon the present Debate, consider of Heads for this free Conference; and report them to this House To-morrow Morning.

Ordered, That Sir George Booth, Mr. Trevor, Mr. Gott, be added to that Committee.

Nat. Bill.

Ordered, That the Committee to whom the Bill for Naturalization is referred be revived; and do meet this Afternoon, at Three of the Clock, in the Speaker's Chamber; and so de die in diem.